Marvel Hierarchy revised as of December 2005

Originally posted by leonidas
<<You've mentioned this "first universe" theory over the past couple of posts. Where did this come from, given that there's never been a mention of the first universe? There's not even enough information to come up with a circumstantial evidencial theory on something different happening on the first universe.>>

when you imply that toaa started things, if it started in the first place there must have been a beginning. each universe has a big bang, why not the multiverse?

Because the multiverse is just a name for the collection of universes - it's not itself a universe. All of the universes in Marvel make up the multiverse. And, referring back to my theory, Multi-Eternity is the embodiment of the collection of universes. Each universal big bang continues to add to the multiverse.

<<I know you want to make the line about the Phoenix deriving from the consciousness of the living stick literally, but you're cutting your nose off to spite your face. There's just too much evidence against your contention that TOAA directly created universe 1,>>

hmm, i don't know. why create pf to do the job rather than accept he just did it himself?

For the same reason TOAA saw fit to create abstracts, and a multiversal judge to hold cosmic hearings and pass judgment rather than just striking people with plagues and lightning bolts, I guess. Phoenix is described as "The Big Bang" and the "spark of creation" - it's all meant to show that the Phoenix Force is the energy that permeates all creation. But like I said, it's just carrying out TOAA's instructions. It's an instrument for TOAA'S will in creation. My guess for why he created pf to do the job? Free will. If you're directly created by TOAA, then your fate and your free will are subject to question - "If TOAA is perfect, but creating imperfect beings, that means he's intentionally making us imperfect - he's PROGRAMMING specific imperfections into us, willfully. Why would TOAA create me imperfect and then see fit to punish me for my imperfection?". But by having an intermediate party - several, actually - TOAA is absolved from having personal liability in the failings of life.

Your contention that TOAA directly created life flies in the face of your own stated distaste for the idea that we lack free will.

let's say you are correct for a moment. that implies that pf was created before the multiverse in the 'void/nothingness' that existed before the multiverse came into being. in order to actually spark the start of the multiverse pf must have already existed prior to the multiverse, no? to say it came into being simulataneously is analagous to saying toaa sparked it and that pf was simply toaa's power of creation. he created pf before that first multiversal spark, or it was toaa's power that sparked the multiverse perhaps in the form of the pf. problem with saying pf was created before the multiverse is that before the multiverse there WAS no possibility for life, no potential for life. potential didn't start until the multiverse came into being.

I agree with everything except your conclusion. Let's go back to my "grand theory" - the White Hot Room is the container for the energy of creation - it's where the instructions for each universe exists. The White Hot Room's Phoenix Force doesn't relate to life at all, IMO. The relationship between Phoenix and life is at a universal level only - when Eternity asks "why", why creates possibility - including the possibility for life. That possibility creates the Big Bang - a manifestation of the Phoenix, and it draws its power from that possibility that actually started with Eternity. That flow matches up with what is described in Fantastic Four, and as you can see, the Phoenix manifestation fits into that quite nicely, and links with the multiversal concepts throughout the rest of my theory, all of which derive from events in the comics.

My guess is that my view of PF's relationship with life deviates slightly from Illa's here. He might argue that the possibility of life ANYWHERE in the multiverse is what sustains the Phoenix Force. It's not an unreasonable conclusion to make, either, and in that case, the very existence of the Phoenix Force is what creates the possibility of life - essentially the PF guarantees itself. The only problem with that, IMO, is that it makes the PF's energy source limitless, which doesn't really sit well with me because it makes her drawing on unborn life less tragic.

oh, and i think demi and i are both in agreement on the fact that aunt may would tear the hulk a new one. after all, all those years hanging out with an irradiated peter must have cause HAVOC with her dna and it seems only logical to assume a mutant gene of some sort took up residence in her body. in a multiverse of unltd possibility, that gene would have grown in at least one universe into her ability to alter reality on a franklin-esque scale and obviously hulk would be less than nothing to her. unless she chose to fight him h2h ala onslaught . . . 😛

Oh....no.....I was pulling for the Hulk!

There truly is no hope. 🙁

<<Your contention that TOAA directly created life flies in the face of your own stated distaste for the idea that we lack free will.>>

uh-uh, i never said he created it -- i said he allowed it to evolve naturally out of his creation.

<<My guess is that my view of PF's relationship with life deviates slightly from Illa's here.>>

yah, i'd say. you're gonna give the poor guy a seizure! not sure how you can say the pf (your hypothetical multi-pf) is NOT associated with life when every mention of it is associated with life. i'd assumed your multi-entity represented life in the same way the universal counterparts do.

so supposing again your multi entity does NOT have to do with life, i can see where you could argue that it existed before the first spark of multiversal creation. but if it existed in this void prior to the multiverse's creation and prior to potentiality and causality (which again flies in the face of everything we know about the pf), then it begs the question why create it at all? basically it was a pool of energy just . . . waiting to be used? it just doesn't . . . feel right.

if it was ME writing the story, it would go something like this . . .

toaa blows on an outstretched hand and the multiverse is begun. as it evolves, a force he had not anticipated (can an omniscient being CHOOSE to allow itself to be surprised??) arose -- the pf. as a new form of life, toaa is intrigued and takes the creature aside and speaks with it, giving it a special job and a special place to keep itself safe. (the white hot room)

simplistic? maybe, but it avoids any direct link with toaa and pf and fulfils all the criteria that is needed to define the pf as it has been presented. you can even fit in your own little theory within my story.

and where do you get the notion that toaa directly created the abstracts? once agin, i'd prefer to say these concepts evolved naturally out of the creation.

<<Oh....no.....I was pulling for the Hulk!
There truly is no hope.>>

hahahaha!! and i wouldn't have it any other way!😉

Originally posted by leonidas
<<Your contention that TOAA directly created life flies in the face of your own stated distaste for the idea that we lack free will.>>

uh-uh, i never said he created it -- i said he allowed it to evolve naturally out of his creation.

Yes, but....what creation? If you're saying that it's not the PF that created sentience in the universe, and you're saying that it's not TOAA...what is the mechanism?

<<My guess is that my view of PF's relationship with life deviates slightly from Illa's here.>>

yah, i'd say. you're gonna give the poor guy a seizure! not sure how you can say the pf (your hypothetical multi-pf) is NOT associated with life when every mention of it is associated with life. i'd assumed your multi-entity represented life in the same way the universal counterparts do.

I created the multi-PF because of the sharp divide between the embodiments of universal phoenix, which is dependent on life in the universe, and the "they" that the Phoenix Avatars kept referring to who knows a lot more than they do. Like I said, Illa's theory that even the White Hot Room Phoenix Force is connected to the possibility of life would fit into my theory equally well, I just prefer the notion of genuine sacrifice if the Phoenix overreaches. But either is fine.

so supposing again your multi entity does NOT have to do with life, i can see where you could argue that it existed before the first spark of multiversal creation. but if it existed in this void prior to the multiverse's creation and prior to potentiality and causality (which again flies in the face of everything we know about the pf), then it begs the question why create it at all? basically it was a pool of energy just . . . waiting to be used? it just doesn't . . . feel right.

My belief is that TOAA created the multiverse to support life - and life was the primary goal of the grand multiversal experiment. In that sense, having the Phoenix Force there to support its creation before it even happens is natural. It's the equivalent of collecting lumber because you intend to build a house. You may not end up building it at all, but the intent is there, and thus the ingredients are collected ahead of time. TOAA always intended the multiverse to host life, he just removed himself from the specifics for the reasons I discussed in my last post.

if it was ME writing the story, it would go something like this . . .

toaa blows on an outstretched hand and the multiverse is begun. as it evolves, a force he had not anticipated (can an omniscient being CHOOSE to allow itself to be surprised??)

No, and that's the problem with your theory. 😛

arose -- the pf. as a new form of life, toaa is intrigued and takes the creature aside and speaks with it, giving it a special job and a special place to keep itself safe. (the white hot room)

simplistic? maybe, but it avoids any direct link with toaa and pf and fulfils all the criteria that is needed to define the pf as it has been presented. you can even fit in your own little theory within my story.

But that presumes that the all-knowing....isn't all-knowing. Why are you so focused on splitting up TOAA and PF? EVERYTHING is connected to TOAA ultimately...there's no escape from that. TOAA can divorce himself from personally designing life just by creating multi-PF ("they"😉 and giving PF its own will. And that meets your criteria of maintaining free will without the stretch of making TOAA ignorant of something.

and where do you get the notion that toaa directly created the abstracts? once agin, i'd prefer to say these concepts evolved naturally out of the creation.

I didn't say TOAA directly created the abstracts. Going back to the grand theory, they are programmed into the "egg" as instructions that are delivered via the Big Bang...but by then it's three degrees separated from TOAA's direct hand.

Hmm...

And we delve even further down the rabbit hole...

Originally posted by demigawd
My guess is that my view of PF's relationship with life deviates slightly from Illa's here. He might argue that the possibility of life ANYWHERE in the multiverse is what sustains the Phoenix Force. It's not an unreasonable conclusion to make, either, and in that case, the very existence of the Phoenix Force is what creates the possibility of life - essentially the PF guarantees itself. The only problem with that, IMO, is that it makes the PF's energy source limitless, which doesn't really sit well with me because it makes her drawing on unborn life less tragic.

Here's the kicker behind my view.

Originally posted by demigawd
the very existence of the Phoenix Force is what creates the possibility of life - essentially the PF guarantees itself.

Self sustaining and perpetual.

Nothing in creation is by chance.

The Phoenix Force is simply a sum of quantum variables realized.

All actions have a pre-determined reaction based on the given factors at any point in time.

It's all by design.

Even free will is not truly free will because it's simply following a pre-determined string of actions and reactions to a pre-determined sum.

It's a matter of perspective.

When TOAA made the choice to create existence, all concepts, their precursors, contingencies, antithesis, consequences, etc. were born.

TOAA birthed "possibility" by himself embodying causality.

The possibility of life is based on a string of precursors. It was always possible for things to live, but in order for things to live, their going to need certain elements to meet the sum of life, so these elements are also produced prior to this possibilty becoming a realization.

Basically, Life (and existence) is just an equation.

If life = A+B+C [(A) equalling the possibility of life, (B) equalling the Will of TOAA to create life, and (C) equalling the energy TOAA deemed necessary to create and fuel all life that will exist] all of the variables inherrent to the equation must predate the equation, and they also must have a pre-determined value.

For an action to have a reaction, all variables involved must have a pre-determined value that equates to the sum of their joining.

It's simple mathematics.

You can't have life without the sum of life, and the Phoenix Force is essential to that sum.

Yes, life was always a possibility, but the realization of that possibility had pre-determined variables that had to come together in order to equal the sum.

Causality in a nutshell.

By the way, Follow the Leader by Rakim and T.R.O.Y by Pete Rock and CL Smooth are a perfect soundtrack for brainstorming quantum physics based upon fictional stories that contain such characters as a hairy, super agile Canadian midget named Puck. 😆

And I haven't gotten anything accomplished here at work for the last 2 days. 😆

ppl have been making some really good points, but its obvious that they are stressing characters THEY are mostly familiar with. like sombody said earlier everything has a purpose. and there are tons more beings out there that perform particular functions that most neither know or care about. I mean when you think about it some of these beings fucntion is so simlar they almst over lap. as awesome as the PF is it is not the be all that ends all in the MU. As somebody else said its all about importance over sheer power, but to humor, not a defintive list or anything just beings widley over looked:

Nemesis-first sentient being after the big bang---got bored, devided its essence into the Infinty Gems. later calling itself infinti--no not that infinity.

Atlez-the custodian of the Marvel Multiverse, his task was that of monitoring the various realities of the Marvel Universe, keeping them maintained and from tumbling into the Cosmic Abyss. if he fails, all of reality falls into the CA--end of the multiverse.

Infinity- the personification of infinite possibilities and potential.-----and since we're on that i might as well throw in the other three that make up the Cosmological Compass Points.

Oblivion- the personification of entropy and nihilism. the flip-side to Death and opposite of Infinity.

Eternity-the personification of the universe, space, life and time. the flip-side to Infinity and opposite of Death

then there is Origin [i shit you not] Origin is the manifestation of the beginning or origins of creation. It helps create the beginning of beings and objects.

Death- the personification of death, the end. the flip-side to Oblivion and opposite of Eternity.

Infinites-gigantic omniversal entities[average size is a light year tall at least] that rearrange realities to make them more stable and run smoothly.

Celestials-a race of giants that travel the spaceways conducting various experiments on the forms of life across the cosmos. also rumored to be Eternity's children, so at least we know they rank below him

So even tho you do the best you can ppl are always gonna disagree so here's my list for what its worth--

1.TOAA

2.THOTU-as it is basically an aspect of TOAA's might--very much like
the Source is to the Presence

3.LT

4.True Beyonders(not the foolish cosmic cube one)

5.The Cosmological Compass Points [death, eternity, oblivion, infinity]
these are the most important abstracts of them all

6.All other abstracts--including Origin

7.Phoenix Force

here is where we start to get into ppl with pyshical bodies

8.Nemesis/IG--seeing as how all the gems put together was the total sum of its essense b4 LT made his famous decree.

9. The Cosmic Cubes- or rather the evolved entities that come from the cubes. i know that once wishes get too grandiose it just casts an illusion instead of warping reality but once the wish is straight forward it can literally do anything. Molecule-man only had a fraction of a cube's power and he re-ignited a dead solar system, so even a regular weilder of the cube can wish to be the supreme being of reality--like thanos did

10. The Infinites-they can iron out the kinks in a reality in one fell swoop, or obliterate one if need be

11.Celestials--i know nobody wants to see them above galactus, but they can create energy from scratch. while the energy that Galactus feeds on is used to help keep imprisoned the cosmic entity, Abraxas, as well as empower himself so even after he has had a belly full, his power begins to diminish.

12. Galactus/Abraxas--once abraxas gets loose he will about G.'s equal, if not oh so slightly above

13.Atlez--this is by importance to the MU, and not sheer power. cuz all the Atlezes only last for about a dozen generations b4 thier energy used to maintain the mulitverse is used up, and they have to find a replacement... so they usually dont have much power to spare in terms of attacking.

14. The Elder Gods. all of them--especially those among "those who sit in the shadows" or some dumb shit like that, and those of the Exemplars--Cytorrak and the rest of them

15. Major Cosmic beings[The Vishanti, Kronos]

16. Minor Cosmics [The Ancient One, Khatylis]

17. Skyfathers including Rune Thor[which is the correct title, not Rune King Thor, Or Mad King Thor]

18.Thanos without any artifacts
---Sentry[for obvious reasons]
---Gladiator at full confidence
--- Regular Thor
---Genis Vell[might as well throw him in there too, obvious right?
---Silver Surfer[no PIS about him being weakened, for any reason]

19. Elders of the Universe

20. Earth bound Class 100's[Hulk, Juggy, Apocalypse, Colossus, Warpath, etc.,]

this is my best estimation LET THE RAMPANT DISAGREEING BEGIN!!!!

Wait, wait, wait...

I want to withdraw part of that post:

We do have a degree of free will.

We can decide how far along the equation of existence we go because we can pick which string of variables equate to our sum, though the outcome of any series of variables we draw from already have pre-determined contingencies.

The key is finding the right string of variables that equate to a perpetually infinite sum.

You're going to make the decisions you're going to make regardless of wether you actually make them or not. Part of the infinite realites, universes or whatever you want to call them, is that each descion forms a new one, in that new universe you made the opposite descion. Of course the way things work is the same and the way you react to things is also predetermined by who you are. You are the sum of your choices in the past, and your experiences. Even on a larger scale with other people making desicions. They like you will make the descion they were going to make regardless.

This is a reason why we have alternate and divergent universes.

And even in those alternate realities, the alternqate you is faced with some similar and some different choices from the you that is you. as following a different path of probability until everythign is realized. and matter has taken all possible forms.

Originally posted by manjaro
ppl have been making some really good points, but its obvious that they are stressing characters THEY are mostly familiar with. like sombody said earlier everything has a purpose. and there are tons more beings out there that perform particular functions that most neither know or care about. I mean when you think about it some of these beings fucntion is so simlar they almst over lap. as awesome as the PF is it is not the be all that ends all in the MU. As somebody else said its all about importance over sheer power, but to humor, not a defintive list or anything just beings widley over looked:

Nemesis-first sentient being after the big bang---got bored, devided its essence into the Infinty Gems. later calling itself infinti--no not that infinity.

Atlez-the custodian of the Marvel Multiverse, his task was that of monitoring the various realities of the Marvel Universe, keeping them maintained and from tumbling into the Cosmic Abyss. if he fails, all of reality falls into the CA--end of the multiverse.

Infinity- the personification of infinite possibilities and potential.-----and since we're on that i might as well throw in the other three that make up the Cosmological Compass Points.

Oblivion- the personification of entropy and nihilism. the flip-side to Death and opposite of Infinity.

Eternity-the personification of the universe, space, life and time. the flip-side to Infinity and opposite of Death

then there is Origin [i shit you not] Origin is the manifestation of the beginning or origins of creation. It helps create the beginning of beings and objects.

Death- the personification of death, the end. the flip-side to Oblivion and opposite of Eternity.

Infinites-gigantic omniversal entities[average size is a light year tall at least] that rearrange realities to make them more stable and run smoothly.

Celestials-a race of giants that travel the spaceways conducting various experiments on the forms of life across the cosmos. also rumored to be Eternity's children, so at least we know they rank below him

So even tho you do the best you can ppl are always gonna disagree so here's my list for what its worth--

1.TOAA

2.THOTU-as it is basically an aspect of TOAA's might--very much like
the Source is to the Presence

3.LT

4.True Beyonders(not the foolish cosmic cube one)

5.The Cosmological Compass Points [death, eternity, oblivion, infinity]
these are the most important abstracts of them all

6.All other abstracts--including Origin

7.Phoenix Force

here is where we start to get into ppl with pyshical bodies

8.Nemesis/IG--seeing as how all the gems put together was the total sum of its essense b4 LT made his famous decree.

9. The Cosmic Cubes- or rather the evolved entities that come from the cubes. i know that once wishes get too grandiose it just casts an illusion instead of warping reality but once the wish is straight forward it can literally do anything. Molecule-man only had a fraction of a cube's power and he re-ignited a dead solar system, so even a regular weilder of the cube can wish to be the supreme being of reality--like thanos did

10. The Infinites-they can iron out the kinks in a reality in one fell swoop, or obliterate one if need be

11.Celestials--i know nobody wants to see them above galactus, but they can create energy from scratch. while the energy that Galactus feeds on is used to help keep imprisoned the cosmic entity, Abraxas, as well as empower himself so even after he has had a belly full, his power begins to diminish.

12. Galactus/Abraxas--once abraxas gets loose he will about G.'s equal, if not oh so slightly above

13.Atlez--this is by importance to the MU, and not sheer power. cuz all the Atlezes only last for about a dozen generations b4 thier energy used to maintain the mulitverse is used up, and they have to find a replacement... so they usually dont have much power to spare in terms of attacking.

14. The Elder Gods. all of them--especially those among "those who sit in the shadows" or some dumb shit like that, and those of the Exemplars--Cytorrak and the rest of them

15. Major Cosmic beings[The Vishanti, Kronos]

16. Minor Cosmics [The Ancient One, Khatylis]

17. Skyfathers including Rune Thor[which is the correct title, not Rune King Thor, Or Mad King Thor]

18.Thanos without any artifacts
---Sentry[for obvious reasons]
---Gladiator at full confidence
--- Regular Thor
---Genis Vell[might as well throw him in there too, obvious right?
---Silver Surfer[no PIS about him being weakened, for any reason]

19. Elders of the Universe

20. Earth bound Class 100's[Hulk, Juggy, Apocalypse, Colossus, Warpath, etc.,]

this is my best estimation LET THE RAMPANT DISAGREEING BEGIN!!!!

Hmm...

Interesting Manjaro.

Only catch there is that the abstracts, even Death, Eternity, Infinity, and Oblivion, are contingent on an initial existence.

They're embodiments of concepts of existence.

Without any form of existence, there's no concepts for them to embody.

Even Oblivion, even though that seems like a complete paradox.

Could Oblivion be the "pre-creation hesitation"?

Originally posted by Creshosk
You're going to make the decisions you're going to make regardless of wether you actually make them or not. Part of the infinite realites, universes or whatever you want to call them, is that each descion forms a new one, in that new universe you made the opposite descion. Of course the way things work is the same and the way you react to things is also predetermined by who you are. You are the sum of your choices in the past, and your experiences. Even on a larger scale with other people making desicions. They like you will make the descion they were going to make regardless.

This is a reason why we have alternate and divergent universes.

And even in those alternate realities, the alternqate you is faced with some similar and some different choices from the you that is you. as following a different path of probability until everythign is realized. and matter has taken all possible forms.

That's actually a good point....Universe #5856847 Demigawd eats that donut. Universe #5856846 Demigawd does not. So by choosing to eat the donut, does that mean that I've shifted universes to 5856847....or does that mean that I was pre-destined to eat that donut BECAUSE I am Demigawd of Universe #5856847 and my universe is pre-defined with it being the version where Demigawd eats the donut? Or does each action I take create new universes on the fly with all actions I could have taken instead?

And if Universe #5856847 is the universes where everything is the same as Universe #5856846 EXCEPT Demigawd eats the donut...doesn't that mean that I have no choice but to eat the donut?

Originally posted by illadelph12
Hmm...

Interesting Manjaro.

Only catch there is that the abstracts, even Death, Eternity, Infinity, and Oblivion, are contingent on an initial existence.

They're embodiments of concepts of existence.

Without any form of existence, there's no concepts for them to embody.

Even Oblivion, even though that seems like a complete paradox.

Could Oblivion be the "pre-creation hesitation"?

That's why we have universal concept and multiversal concepts. Beings like Death, Infinity and Oblivion aren't actually absolutes across creation...they're absolutes within that universe. If Demigawd is obliterated, he's only obliterated in that universe....there are infinite Demigawds in other universes.

Oblivion on a multiversal scale is the domain of higher powers than Oblivion, the way that Death is a higher power than Mephisto. But rather then there being a multi-Oblivion, the Phoenix Force is responsible for oblivion/death on a multiversal scale, being that it's outside of the multiverse.

And, of course, all concepts are embodied on an omniversal scale within TOAA himself. So I don't necessarily see a paradox, or even significant conflict between beings. But for that reason, I'd also put PF above the Cosmological Compass Points, which have only proven to be universal in scope. In fact, I think based on the descriptions of the abstracts that you've named, all of the multiversal beings should be elevated over the universal beings on your list. For example - if an Infinite can destroy a reality - that means destroying that reality's Death, Infinity, Oblivion, Eternity, etc, and usurping their control over that reality entirely. So why would you have them below those abstracts?

yes illadelph, but from a 616 POV. the reason the big bang even took place in the frist place was becuase eternity was recreating the universe, supposedly has he as always done. and since thats his task we can only assume that thats what he does for all the other realities, and we can just spare ourselves the headache and say that TOAA is the one who tasked him to do it.

you are right about without any form of existence, there's no concepts for them to embody, but the thing is the universe is either destroyed or created one at a time, so there is always existence in the multiverse, and even if the multiverse is gone, there is always the Megaverse, and the beings who live there[hope you didnt forget about that😄]

to simplify it even further, Galactus is a left over from the previous universe, whether that means it's 615, or an older version of 616 we dont know, but while he was incubating in the cosmic egg for Eons Nemesis was later formed in this universe some time after the big bang. then Nemesis created the demons and devils as its children, but without conscience, they became perverted and greedy. then it dismissed them with its power.

in the meantime, abraxas was forming in the core of eternity. Eternity then turned around and created a bunch of children including Eon, the Celestials[allegedly], Enmity, Expediency, Entropy, Epiphany, Eulogy, and Empathy. including himslef all the ones whose name begins with "E" form the Seven Friendless. he is also grandfather to Epoch and Era. and lastly, he considers himslef a sibling to the other three that make up the Compass.

so the whole idea behind the abstracts[ as far as Marvel is concerned] is that they already existed in some extra dimensional realm, b4 everything went down. then somewhere along the lines when the celestials have been manipualting events all along the way the elder gods came in, and races started to evolve, and cosmic beings who act as agents to the main 4 abstracts and every other being has just creeping in one by one since then.

thats why every sky father has tried to set up contingecy plans for the celestials, bcuz its being hinted that they are the ones instrumental for most living things being formed, and these beings born with an innate desire to worship, somehow cuased gods to to take form, then it will play itself out and Eternity will have to start all over again

Originally posted by demigawd
And, of course, all concepts are embodied on an omniversal scale within TOAA himself. So I don't necessarily see a paradox, or even significant conflict between beings. But for that reason, I'd also put PF above the Cosmological Compass Points, which have only proven to be universal in scope. In fact, I think based on the descriptions of the abstracts that you've named, all of the multiversal beings should be elevated over the universal beings on your list. For example - if an Infinite can destroy a reality - that means destroying that reality's Death, Infinity, Oblivion, Eternity, etc, and usurping their control over that reality entirely. So why would you have them below those abstracts?

fair point but even tho these abstract permeate our universe they are indeed omniveral concepts. the same way it is said that as long as life or its potential exists the phoenix will.you see the PF is all about past, present, and future right?

thats where infinty comes in, the infinte possiblites. then Eternity encompasses time and space that concrete and possible life takes up, then all living things no matter how great must progress toward Entropy or in a broader sense Oblivion, then Death is the final outcome. so they are all tied together, but even so on my list the PF is only one notch below the abstracts so i guess they could be interchangable, I have no prob with that😄

I think based on the descriptions of the abstracts that you've named, all of the multiversal beings should be elevated over the universal beings on your list. For example - if an Infinite can destroy a reality - that means destroying that reality's Death, Infinity, Oblivion, Eternity, etc, and usurping their control over that reality entirely. So why would you have them below those abstracts? [/B]

This was actually addressed to Manjaro, rather than Illa. Sorry.

Originally posted by manjaro
fair point but even tho these abstract permeate our universe they are indeed omniveral concepts. the same way it is said that as long as life or its potential exists the phoenix will.you see the PF is all about past, present, and future right?

thats where infinty comes in, the infinte possiblites. then Eternity encompasses time and space that concrete and possible life takes up, then all living things no matter how great must progress toward Entropy or in a broader sense Oblivion, then Death is the final outcome. so they are all tied together, but even so on my list the PF is only one notch below the abstracts so i guess they could be interchangable, I have no prob with that😄

The concepts are omniversal, but not the beings who embody them. Oblivion and infinity are concepts in DC, but there aren't beings who embody them the way they do in Marvel. So they're not omniversal. And we've seen these Abstracts destroyed within one universe without affecting another, so they're not multiversal either. Given that the fallout of harm to these abstracts has only affected the universe in which they've been harmed, I'd contend that these Abstracts as beings (not concepts) are only universal, with the omniversal concepts that these abstracts embody residing within TOAA himself - or within the very concept of "being" TOAA put forth "in the beginning", which pre-dates the omniverse.

The Phoenix Force, on the other hand, pre-dating the multiverse, brings the beginning (big bang) and the end in a way that trumps any of the universal abstracts - Death can't extend beyond its universe.

I'd also, for that reason, put things like Infinites above the Universal Abstracts

that makes perfect sense. what i get from what you're saying is in any given universe that particular "embodiment" of the concept is merely an avatar of TOAA. in a sense the same way that Master mold could cough out sentinels. i get you 😉

on the other hand i wouldnt go that far with the infintes, they were created for a purpose, and that was to make sure things run smoothly, picture them as Norton or Adaware in the giant computer of life-- they were tasked if you will, but they would onlyneed to destroy a unverse if everthing was Completely FUBAR-ed. thats thier role, who knows maybe Eternity is there taskmaster seeing as how he is charged with regularly ending a reality so that another one can be born anew. or maybe they were implemeted by TOAA himslef.

the same thing can easity be said of Atlez, becuase his role is so vital the multiverse couldnt continue without him, if his energies falter everything as we know it past future, and present in the multiverse would fall into the Cosmic Abyss, but then again the mutliverse is different from the megaverse so all hope for life wouldnt be lost

Now, as to where the Infinites are in relation to the Phoenix Force is unknown, because I'm not familiar with them, or their origin. Do you have more information about them, or links to more information? How do we know that they're multiversal?

All of the other entities you've named are either universal in scope, or play special roles outside the multiverse.

Originally posted by manjaro
that makes perfect sense. what i get from what you're saying is in any given universe that particular "embodiment" of the concept is merely an avatar of TOAA. in a sense the same way that Master mold could cough out sentinels. i get you 😉

Basically - I'd go further and say that each Abstract is a self-contained consciousness that spreads throughout its universe.

The exceptions are the ones you've named - the Infinites and Atlez, along with the Phoenix Force, Multi-Eternity and even Roma. In terms of importance, I'd put them all above everybody else at the top of the list. I'm still wishy washy on LT, after that whole HOTU debacle...

Update: http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/atlez.htm

Atlez is the anchor of only the 616 universe...it's not multiversal in scope. That drops his importance dramatically. I'll continue updates here as I look up more of the beings you've named.

Update - the available info on the Infinites is sketchy at best, but you appear to be correct, so they're definitely towards the top of the hierarchy.

Manjaro, is this your source?

http://www.knightmare6.com/faq/cosmic_entities_marvel/

There are a number of problems with it, with a lot of characters.

Originally posted by demigawd
That's actually a good point....Universe #5856847 Demigawd eats that donut. Universe #5856846 Demigawd does not. So by choosing to eat the donut, does that mean that I've shifted universes to 5856847....or does that mean that I was pre-destined to eat that donut BECAUSE I am Demigawd of Universe #5856847 and my universe is pre-defined with it being the version where Demigawd eats the donut? Or does each action I take create new universes on the fly with all actions I could have taken instead?

And if Universe #5856847 is the universes where everything is the same as Universe #5856846 EXCEPT Demigawd eats the donut...doesn't that mean that I have no choice but to eat the donut?