Marvel Hierarchy revised as of December 2005

Between 2002 and 2004 New X-men came out and it reverted back to the original Phoenix interpretation where being a Phoenix was a mutation and that Jean as Phoenix had merely reached the point of “ultimate mutation”. It carried on the idea of a central power reserve with its Crown/Phoenix consciousness which bonded with avatars to carry out its work across the multiverse from inside each of its universe, hence the Phoenix Corps. It also supported the original idea that Jean was Phoenix. Jean had previously (during the 86 retcon era) always made a distinction between what herself and her inherited Phoenix memories. In New X-men she claimed responsibility for them and referred to the Dark Phoenix costume as hers. On top of that after her death at the hands of “Xorneto” Jean was reborn in the golden woman form that previously appeared to her on the space shuttle, the same form that was presented in the retcon period as a separate being. This was a conscious effort by Morrison to show that that was no longer the case. GM having Jean reborn from the phoenix egg had the effect of introducing the egg/cocoon to the Phoenix life cycle which further blurred the distinction, between Jean and Phoenix. With New X-mens kaballah flavoured talk of our archetypal forms existing in the white hot room, prior to our physical birth this at first suggested that the golden woman on the shuttle was Jeans archetypal form manifesting through Jeans sentient mind.

That’s one theory however far more conclusive than that is Jeans meeting with Death in Classic X-men 43( 86retcon era to boot!!):

As ive said all along Jean is a direct manifestation of the power of creation, The Phoenix consciousness. She just never knew it.

-The implication is that the “phoenix force” that wandered around the MU bonding with Madelyne and Rachel is really always the part carved from the spirit of Jean Grey. This seems also to be the interpretation of Greg Pak in Endsong 5:

-This is indirectly confirmed even in Excalibur 64.When the Phoenix awakens Rachel in space to bid her farewell,Rachel asks her to show herself,and she appears in the Jean Grey “Gold Woman” form: “Mother...You look like my mother...like Jean.Jean Grey”.

-Rachel doesn’t gain her Phoenix power until she applies her power to the Shi’ar holempathic crystal which contained the essence of Jeans being:

Relating this to what we’ve been saying about the Phoenix consciousness and the Phoenix manifestation. Jean apparently is the human form of the 616’s Phoenix manifestation and as a true avatar she has a special relationship with the Phoenix Consciousness that makes her the White Phoenix of Crown.

The Crown by definition is the closest any being can get to the Unknowable God. It is a level of consciousness which brings union with the supreme being.It is represented in creation by the Big Bang and the seraphim (fire emblazoned humans with wings). The parallels drawn between the Phoenix Consciousness and the avatars are obvious.

So with all this in mind this bio hasn’t really changed that much. As Illadelph rightly pointed out it deals with the universal 616 manifestation of Phoenix. If you take a look at the Official Handbook of Alternate Universes (which came out last month) New X-mens account of the Crown and Phoenixes connection to it are still accounted for. It wasn’t mentioned in this bio as it has nothing to do with 616 however the Phoenix is still the same. In Endsong Jean refers to what she did in Here Comes Tomorrow. This bio itself still refers to Uncanny X-mens recent depiction of the Crown as both “the core of creation” and “the heart of the Phoenix” which matches its role in real life principles.

Let's get ready to rumble...

Originally posted by illadelph12
Let's get ready to rumble...

😱

da da da da da da da...here we go

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
That’s one theory however far more conclusive than that is Jeans meeting with Death in Classic X-men 43( 86retcon era to boot!!):

As ive said all along Jean is a direct manifestation of the power of creation, The Phoenix consciousness. She just never knew it.

-The implication is that the “phoenix force” that wandered around the MU bonding with Madelyne and Rachel is really always the part carved from the spirit of Jean Grey. This seems also to be the interpretation of Greg Pak in Endsong 5:

Relating this to what we’ve been saying about the Phoenix consciousness and the Phoenix manifestation. Jean apparently is the human form of the 616’s Phoenix manifestation and as a true avatar she has a special relationship with the Phoenix Consciousness that makes her the White Phoenix of Crown.

Im no expert on the phoenix like some people on these forums but i read that scene as Jean is apart of the phoenix force, but only because all life is a part of the PF. however to me it looked like Jean's specific mutation allows her to be the perfect host, or the one true avatar, for the PF and that this mutation will be passed down to her children, which could explain why all of Jean's "children" so far have had powers similar to hers and not to scotts

Originally posted by yer
Im no expert on the phoenix like some people on these forums but i read that scene as Jean is apart of the phoenix force, but only because all life is a part of the PF. however to me it looked like Jean's specific mutation allows her to be the perfect host, or the one true avatar, for the PF and that this mutation will be passed down to her children, which could explain why all of Jean's "children" so far have had powers similar to hers and not to scotts

The scene says Jean was carved from the Phoenix Force itself. Along with that you have the evidence ive highlighted from New X-men, Excalibur and Endsong which all paints the same picture. Plus it says in the bio itself that shes a part of the universal manifestation of the Phoenix Force so its pretty conclusive to be honest.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Jean apparently is the human form of the 616’s Phoenix manifestation.

This is the only thing I'm going to bother disagreeing with. I'd say that Jean isn't necesarily the 616's human form, but rather a "default" humanoid form that the PF has chosen for itself in the 616 as it's true nature has no form, but it had a special relationship with Jean.

Originally posted by BlaqChaos
This is the only thing I'm going to bother disagreeing with. I'd say that Jean isn't necesarily the 616's human form, but rather a "default" humanoid form that the PF has [b]chosen for itself in the 616 as it's true nature has no form, but it had a special relationship with Jean. [/B]

Well considering that:

its stated on panel (Classic X-men 43) that the Phoenix Force carved Jean from its very being

Endsong stated that Jean and the Phoenix were one and the evil Dark Phoenix entity was in fact a shard of Jeans self

New X-men had Jean reborn as the golden woman

Rachel gained her Phoenix power after interfacing with the Shi'ar holempathic crystal.

Plus it says in the very same bio your championing that Jean is the prime host an actual part of the Phoenix manifestation anyway

With all that in mind its really quite conclusive. That also explains why Jean is the White Phoenix of Crown. She is the closest thing the Phoenix Force has to a human form. As implied by Classic X-men, Uncanny X-men and supported by Endsong the Force that imbued Rachel and Madelyne Pryor with power was the part carved from Jean. That would also explain the limited nature of Rachels powers in comparison to Jean.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Well considering that:

its stated on panel (Classic X-men 43) that the Phoenix Force carved Jean from its very being

Endsong stated that Jean and the Phoenix were one and the evil Dark Phoenix entity was in fact a shard of Jeans self

New X-men had Jean reborn as the golden woman

Rachel gained her Phoenix power after interfacing with the Shi'ar holempathic crystal.

Plus it says in the very same bio your championing that Jean is the prime host an actual part of the Phoenix manifestation anyway

With all that in mind its really quite conclusive. That also explains why Jean is the White Phoenix of Crown. She is the closest thing the Phoenix Force has to a human form. As implied by Classic X-men, Uncanny X-men and supported by Endsong the Force that imbued Rachel and Madelyne Pryor with power was the part carved from Jean. That would also explain the limited nature of Rachels powers in comparison to Jean.

More Rubbish all I see is people extrapolating and clutching at straws.
Phoenix Force is just the Abstract for life in the multiverse (not outside it) as death is the Abstract for death. Two sides of the same coin. No more - No less both created by the TOAA like everything. Glad I cleared that up for you all and in so few lines.

Keep the faith 🙂

Stay Whirly 🤘

till the next time I'm banned 😂

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
More Rubbish all I see is people extrapolating and clutching at straws.
Phoenix Force is just the Abstract for life in the multiverse (not outside it) as death is the Abstract for death. Two sides of the same coin. No more - No less both created by the TOAA like everything. Glad I cleared that up for you all and in so few lines.

Keep the faith 🙂

Stay Whirly 🤘

till the next time I'm banned 😂

If u read the scans a distinction is made between phoenix and the abstracts. In the scans Phoenix is said to work within the universe and beyond. All of that is actually stated.

Even more recently X-men Forever made a distinction between Phoenix and the abstracts saying that while the abstractions are just reflections of the universe and their positions are temporary they can and inevitably do get replaced, Phoenix is a constant throughout it all keeping the process going on forever.

So few words but so little relevance. 😄

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
If u read the scans a distinction is made between phoenix and the abstracts. In the scans Phoenix is said to work within the universe and beyond. All of that is actually stated.

Even more recently X-men Forever made a distinction between Phoenix and the abstracts saying that while the abstractions are just reflections of the universe and their positions are temporary they can and inevitably do get replaced, Phoenix is a constant throughout it all keeping the process going on forever.

So few words but so little relevance. 😄

Read the bio it actually talks about the Phoenix force of a Universe 🙂 Your arguing with Marvel not me.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Read the bio it actually talks about the Phoenix force of a Universe 🙂 Your arguing with Marvel not me.

And thats the whole point my friend. Thats what you dont seem to understand and what i didnt when i first read the bio.

The bio refers to the Phoenix of 616 however it still acknowledges the Crowns role and Phoenixs connection to it.

On top of that Official Handbook: Alternate Universes 2005 came out and accounts for New X-men and its events. It fills in the gaps left by the X-men handbook which only deals with events which happened in 616. In this Handbook the Crown and its connection to Phoenix is also mentioned so there has been no retcon my friend.

You have the Crown/Phoenix Consciousness and the Phoenix manifestations in each universe. What makes Jean special is that she is no ordinary host. She is a true avatar which is why she is the White Phoenix. 😄

It doesn't mention the crown at all 🙂

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
It doesn't mention the crown at all 🙂

It does actually. It talks of the Crown as "the core of creation" and the place where Phoenix reformed itself prior to Endsong. 😄

Alternate Universe says the same of the Crown and says its Phoenixes home dimension, where its derived from. 😉

No it really doesn't mention it - it mentions the core of creation TOAA it also mentions future life for each universe powering the Phoenix force its only self sustaining as long as life in each universe exists. ergo death holds great power over it.

If death holds great power over it, how is it immortal and indestructible?

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
No it really doesn't mention it - it mentions the core of creation TOAA it also mentions future life for each universe powering the Phoenix force its only self sustaining as long as life in each universe exists. ergo death holds great power over it.

Incorrect. It mentions the Crown/White Hot Room and calls it "the core of creation" and says its the place Phoenix regenerated prior to Endsong.

It says Phoenix uses up the energy allocated for future life if it takes on a sentience of its own on the physical plane. It gets around that by working through hosts or its avatar Jean.

The Phoenix Force brings about the end of each universe so youre incorrect there once again. Phoenix is the power of creation through which life derives from. However the Force cannot enter the physical plane in person but must do so through the minds of sentient beings. When it brings about the end of the universe and collapses everything into the white hot room it too leaves the physical plane. Death holds no power over it because it cannot die as stated in the bio. 😄

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
If death holds great power over it, how is it immortal and indestructible?

Tell him. 😉