Marvel Hierarchy revised as of December 2005

Originally posted by leonidas
<<Galactus isnt stated to be physically stronger than The Hulk but anyone with common sense would perceive that to be the case judging from their comic book appearances. Surely strong implication on panel should suffice. Does everything need to be spelled out?>>

it stands to reasons that a place exists in a place BEYOND places? 😑 why would it need to be outside the megaverse to fulfill all the obligations you need it to meet? odin can sit in his throne and survey all the nine worlds, but he is still within the framework of the multiverse. i see this 'crown' as a place very like that, only froma higher vantage point. climb a higher mountain you can see further than if you climb a smaller one . . .

For Jean to literally hold the actual 616 universe in her hand she would have to be beyond reality. Just think about it. The Odin example isnt good. Nor is the mountain one. No matter how high you climb you wont be able to suddenly hold houses (which now appear as pinpricks to you) in the palm of your hand.

The M'kraan crystal is the nexus of all realities. It is at the heart of every universe in Marvel. The neutron galaxy at its core leads out of reality.

On top of that Death states in those scans that Phoenix works both within and without reality on the scans on the previous pages.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
If i was wrong then you'd be able to pick apart either mine, Demi or Ills arguments. Noones done so.

There has been no retcon because not one point has changed. There are more things to take into consideration now but not one point of the original argument has been altered.

The x-men bio talks of the 616 Phoenix manifestation and all things to do with 616. It talks of the Crown and reaffirms its role as the core of creation and the origin point of creation.

The Alternate Universes bio talks of the events of Here Comes Tomorrow and again mentions the Crown confirming it as the home dimension of the Phoenix.

Nothings changed. This thread was intended to discredit Phoenix and its role in Marvel but all its done is reaffirm its position as the heart of Marvel creation. 😄

this is the problem they're are not arguments - they're interpretations based on extrapolation. I have given a different equally valid interpretation as has Leo which actually fits the Marvel handbook better in my opinion. 🙂

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
this is the problem they're are not arguments - they're interpretations based on extrapolation. I have given a different equally valid interpretation as has Leo which actually fits the Marvel handbook better in my opinion. 🙂

Precisely. In your opinion. Considering your opinion is that theyve retconned out all of that "Crown rubbish" despite two new bios still featuring the Crown in the same role as its always had its hardly reliable. 🙂

My argument fits in just fine with the handbooks descriptions. If it did as aforementioned you'd be able to tear apart my argument.

You cannot. 😉

<<For Jean to literally hold the actual 616 universe in her hand she would have to be beyond reality. Just think about it. The Odin example isnt good. Nor is the mountain one. No matter how high you climb you wont be able to suddenly hold houses (which now appear as pinpricks to you) in the palm of your hand.>>

perhaps if i had the ODIN POWER i WOULD be able to hold a house in my hand! and the analogy is just fine and fits just fine with what you've shown. mxy is another example of a character looking down from a higher dimension and being able to do whatever he wants to the lower dimension.

<<On top of that Death states in those scans that Phoenix works both within and without reality on the scans on the previous pages.>>

reality is a very subjective term in comics. outside of the multiverse there IS no 'reality'. there is toaa. which is why i don't like the notion that it is 'outside'. 'outside' is a concept that doesn't exist beyond the multiverse, where there are NO concepts.

Originally posted by leonidas
<<For Jean to literally hold the actual 616 universe in her hand she would have to be beyond reality. Just think about it. The Odin example isnt good. Nor is the mountain one. No matter how high you climb you wont be able to suddenly hold houses (which now appear as pinpricks to you) in the palm of your hand.>>

perhaps if i had the ODIN POWER i WOULD be able to hold a house in my hand! and the analogy is just fine and fits just fine with what you've shown. mxy is another example of a character looking down from a higher dimension and being able to do whatever he wants to the lower dimension.

Either way Uncanny X-men 108 states that the interior of the crystal is beyond reality so whatever you say.

Originally posted by leonidas
<<On top of that Death states in those scans that Phoenix works both within and without reality on the scans on the previous pages.>>

reality is a very subjective term in comics. outside of the multiverse there IS no 'reality'. there is toaa. which is why i don't like the notion that it is 'outside'. 'outside' is a concept that doesn't exist beyond the multiverse, where there are NO concepts.

Thats precisely my point. The Crown by definition is an emanation point for Gods essence. Do you think Grant Morrisson called it that by coincidence. In real life principles the path between reality and the Crown is called the flight of the Phoenix. I suppose youre gonna dismiss that as just another coincidence as well? 😉

From the Crown Phoenix manifests into the void as the Big Bang. Creating reality and its concepts.

<<Thats precisely my point. The Crown by definition is an emanation point for Gods essence.>>

and of course that's the deviation point of our thoughts on the subject. i think he borrowed the term, (as an author who has done similar things, i can almost SEE exactly why he liked the idea) probably had some lose association in mind (certainly not a coincedence), but nothing has been explicitly stated, so it's simply extrapolation. which is likely WHY he did it -- to stir the pot and make people wonder, to set some lose association and make people think. white hot room/crown is said to be pf's homeland, not god's. it is also said there is a level beyond the white hot room. if it WAS the home of god/gods essence, where else is there to go beyond it?

Hmm...

Just getting caught up.

i was wondering where you had got to . . . 😉

I don't see the point of arguing the marvel Hierarchy, the power levels are always going to vague and interpreted differently by different people, so in my opinion I think the Hierarchy should solely be based on what an individual thinks individuals come in the ladder, though to an extent it shouldn't be too inaccurate e.g. putting someone like wolverine at the top of the hierarchy due to fanboyism, or phoenix near the top of the ladder ( had to put that in) 😄.

Originally posted by Maestro
I don't see the point of arguing the marvel Hierarchy, the power levels are always going to vague and interpreted differently by different people, so in my opinion I think the Hierarchy should solely be based on what an individual thinks individuals come in the ladder, though to an extent it shouldn't be too inaccurate e.g. putting someone like wolverine at the top of the hierarchy due to fanboyism, or phoenix near the top of the ladder ( had to put that in) 😄.

So true 🙂

Originally posted by leonidas
<<Thats precisely my point. The Crown by definition is an emanation point for Gods essence.>>

and of course that's the deviation point of our thoughts on the subject. i think he borrowed the term, (as an author who has done similar things, i can almost SEE exactly why he liked the idea) probably had some lose association in mind (certainly not a coincedence), but nothing has been explicitly stated, so it's simply extrapolation. which is likely WHY he did it -- to stir the pot and make people wonder, to set some lose association and make people think. white hot room/crown is said to be pf's homeland, not god's. it is also said there is a level beyond the white hot room. if it WAS the home of god/gods essence, where else is there to go beyond it?

If Grant M had just called Phoenixes HQ The Crown and left it that then you would have a point. If he was the only writer to link Phoenix to the supreme being then you would have a point. Not only did GM introduce the Crown as Phoenixes origin point but he also changed Phoenixes role and the nature of the Forces connection with its hosts/avatar from the previous interpretation to make it fit in with being an agent of God. On top of that Chris C the creator of the character linked it with God from its conception and the Phoenix was also linked with God in a DC/Marvel crossover. With all that in mind to dismiss the entire God connection (which is only reaffirmed by GM) as GM's attempt to get readers brainstorming is quite ridiculous.

By definition the Crown is a level of consciousness which brings about union with the supreme being and is the highest divine essence that can be conceived, a gate between the Unmanifest God and creation which is accessible by the human consciousness. In the microcosm of the human body it corresponds to the crown chakra,above the top of the skull,said to be the portal to the highest spiritual experience,the union with God.

Grant M presented the Phoenix hosts as beings who had reached a higher level of consciousness as a result of mutation. They were the "ultimate mutation". These Phoenixes were linked with the "Phoenix Consciousness" of the Crown via the crown chakra.

The Crown is the origin point of creation and contains all that is, was or ever will be in its archetypal form.Keter is the Universal Wavefunction,the Room that is greater than all reality,the archetypal reality where all variants of ourselves from alternate universes exist in a single form fused with everything else,the “real” universe that we cannot see because we are limited by the illusions of space and time and split over countless realities. Everything sooner or later will “return” to the White Hot Room (or realize it had always been
there,in its archetypal form,waiting to arrive).This return is called Teshuvah

The Crown is represented by the colour white both to symbolise burning radiance, the completion of the great work and to show a union with all (as white itself is a union of all colours of the spectrum) hence Jean as the White Crown Phoenix. The form she takes when she has finished all of her Phoenix work in creation (as you can see from one of the scans below) The Crown is also rendered as Pure Being or Presence(The name DC have chosen) and it is represented in creation by the Primum Mobile (DCs choice) or the Big Bang.

The highest order of angels, the seraphim reside in the Crown. (Seraphim comes from Seraph which means to consume with fire). The seraphim are traditionally represented as fire emblazoned humans with wings. They are the beings closest to god, but they are also gods favoured agents, those sent to cleanse the creation with the fire of purification,to burn away false doctrine

She is presented as an archangel of the Crown who burns away all false doctrine, lies and deceit, all that doesnt work, that which isnt needed:

All retconned out GS according to the new handbook and most sites - live with it
🙂 It was only your interpretation anyway.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
All retconned out GS according to the new handbook and most sites - live with it
🙂 It was only your interpretation anyway.

None of that stuff has been retconned at all im sorry to say. Where did you get that idea from?

The bio talks of The Phoenix Force of 616 and anything it missed out the Alternate Universes handbook (which you obviously havent read) filled in. The Crown is still very much a part of Marvel and as such your comments are once again incorrect.

You have a habit of forming an opinion based on hearsay and online fansites. Try reading the comics my friend or better still sit back and be educated whilst the clued up debate 😄

http://www.knightmare6.com/faq/cosm...enix_force.html

many others disagree 🙂

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
http://www.knightmare6.com/faq/cosm...enix_force.html

many others disagree 🙂

Fortunately the latest handbooks on the subject do not. 😄

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Fortunately the latest handbooks on the subject do not. 😄

in your opinion in this site and mine and many others they do.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
in your opinion in this site and mine and many others they do.

Its not my opinion tho is it. As actually stated in the handbook the Crown is still a central part of Marvel as per my interpretation and as stated Jean and Phoenix are indeed one also in line with my interpretation.

Wheres the opinion? 😕

Sorry mate. 🙁

It wasnt meant to be. 😄

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Its not my opinion tho is it. As actually stated in the handbook the Crown is still a central part of Marvel as per my interpretation and as stated Jean and Phoenix are indeed one also in line with my interpretation.

Wheres the opinion? 😕

Sorry mate. 🙁

It wasnt meant to be. 😄

No Leo, myself and just about everyone else see the statements in the handbook differently to you but thats cool check out this site for a fair interpretation.

http://www.knightmare6.com

Look up Phoenix 😉