Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
It affects its power levels in each of the Universes and immortal means what in Marvel. Thor's immortal isn't he? 🙂
It doesnt at all. It means each Phoenix manifestation can only manifest in the physical plane via sentient life. The minute it forms a sentience of its own on the physical plane then it feeds off the energy reserves allocated for all future life in that universe. Each Phoenix manifestation however is sustained by the never ending life cycle which it brings about, maintains and is one with.
No he's not immortal. His bios always go into specifics about the extent of his so called immortality just like they do with the Eternals,Elders, Externals and so on. 🙂
Phoenix is just straight up "immortal" and "indestructible" 😄
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
It doesnt at all. It means each Phoenix manifestation can only manifest in the physical plane via sentient life. The minute it forms a sentience of its own on the physical plane then it feeds off the energy reserves allocated for all future life in that universe. Each Phoenix manifestation however is sustained by the never ending life cycle which it brings about, maintains and is one with.No he's not immortal. His bios always go into specifics about the extent of his so called immortality just like they do with the Eternals,Elders, Externals and so on. 🙂
Phoenix is just straight up "immortal" and "indestructible" 😄
Celestials are immortal - Abstracts are immortal 🙂
Don't worry its OK
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Both abstracts and Celestials have been shown on panel to not be immortal im afraid. If youre sufficiently powerful enough you can kill them.🙂My babys around forever and ever and ever. 😱
strange that - I could point out - jgg 🙂 but it doesn't mean the celestials essence is lost it becomes scattered and can reassemble. Theories on other boards indicate As Galactus dies he becomes a celestial the evidence provided is no more or less stupid than the Phoenix evidence. 🙂 Handbook says they are immortal 🙂
In the case of Abstracts dying - they are replaced with another version of the essence of they're purpose 🙂 jgg A universe without death does not work.
okay . . . you asked for it!!😄
<<As you can see even during the 86 retcon era such a line of thought is incorrect. The Phoenix Force isn’t merely the sum of all psychic energy generated by the minds of sentient beings. It is the power from which all life springs. It predated life, its power sustains life. You got that Leo?!!! Lol>>
hahahh! i actually have that book. that is a unique version of pf -- it seems to indicate that pf is responsible for creating STARS. (hence all the references to the STARCHILDE) the energy from stars leads to life, that is clear, but that is an indirect relationship. it's a relationship i can accept though as it means pf is not DIRECTLY resonsible for granting life, only responsible for the birth of stars which then MAY lead to life in the universe. and of course any potential life is possible because of stars as well. i actually like that interpretation in those first scans!
ahhh, the infamous galactus scans from excaliber. again supporting the association of the pf with stars and not directly with life. if the pf were snuffed out the stars would die. if stars die, life will not end immediately. it would go on but it couldn't last without stellar energy creating all the elements that are needed to support life. so my earlier premise was correct -- if the pf were gone, life would not cease to exist all at once -- ie life is not synonymous with the pf. instead, life would gradually come to an end because there are no more stars. that's a notion i can handle.
those scans ARE a bit paradoxical, however, gs. unless you don't think galactus is a 'living being'. it is clearly implied g would survive the destruction, and would continue to 'live' in a lifeless, desolate universe. so is g then above the influence of the pf? or is g just not a 'living being'? 😖hifty:
<<Destroying a host or absorbing the Phoenix power will have no effect on life as the Phoenix power would still permeate that universe.>>
agreed, and something i never contended.
<<However Galactus was attempting to put a stop to the Phoenix manifestation entering our plane of existence by separating Phoenix from its main host Rachel thereby banishing it to its point of origin (By current continuity the Crown). This would presumably sever all ties between the Phoenix consciousness and said reality resulting in the end of life and the absence of even the potential for life. >>
you clearly state this is your interpretation, and that is fine. as for me, i think g was going to destroy the manifestation of the pf in our universe, not 'send it back to the crown'. i suppose the results are the same, but i don't see anything to say he is simply 'ousting' it, nor do i buy the direct connection to god you're implying with your interpretation.
a couple other things: i would say whirly is quite correct (btw good to have you back AGAIN whirly! be nice if you played well with others and actually stuck around for a while this time -- it's more fun WITH you here!) in saying daeth does indeed hold great power over the pf, though maybe not DIRECT power. but if death claimed all the souls in the universe -- ie -- left no one living, the pf would . . . die? return to its more complete multiversal aspect? there would be no chance for potential life upon which it might draw because all life is ended and there is no chance to procreate. would pf end the universe? if it did, it would have had its hand forced by death. that IS power over the pf.
and the pf doesn't ALWAYS bring about the end of univseres. abraxas brought about the deaths of COUNTLESS universes and seemed to endanger the multiverse itself while he was killing galactus's. the ultimate nullifier wiped out a universe in what if. when a universe is destroyed WITHOUT the pf to do it, what becomes of the pf?? no life, no potential life on which to draw power . . . what brings about the NEXT big bang?
it is also clearly stated that the goblin force destroyed the pf (not the avatar, not the consciousness, the FORCE itself), but life continued to go on in that universe. how?
i'll not get into its origins, as it is purely speculatory, other than to say i do not believe the pf was created outside the multiverse BEFORE the multiverse was created.
whew. it's on now . . . 😄
Originally posted by leonidas
okay . . . you asked for it!!😄<<As you can see even during the 86 retcon era such a line of thought is incorrect. The Phoenix Force isn’t merely the sum of all psychic energy generated by the minds of sentient beings. It is the power from which all life springs. It predated life, its power sustains life. You got that Leo?!!! Lol>>
hahahh! i actually have that book. that is a unique version of pf -- it seems to indicate that pf is responsible for creating STARS. (hence all the references to the STARCHILDE) the energy from stars leads to life, that is clear, but that is an indirect relationship. it's a relationship i can accept though as it means pf is not DIRECTLY resonsible for granting life, only responsible for the birth of stars which then MAY lead to life in the universe. and of course any potential life is possible because of stars as well. i actually like that interpretation in those first scans!
ahhh, the infamous galactus scans from excaliber. again supporting the association of the pf with stars and not directly with life. if the pf were snuffed out the stars would die. if stars die, life will not end immediately. it would go on but it couldn't last without stellar energy creating all the elements that are needed to support life. so my earlier premise was correct -- if the pf were gone, life would not cease to exist all at once -- ie life is not synonymous with the pf. instead, life would gradually come to an end because there are no more stars. that's a notion i can handle.
those scans ARE a bit paradoxical, however, gs. unless you don't think galactus is a 'living being'. it is clearly implied g would survive the destruction, and would continue to 'live' in a lifeless, desolate universe. so is g then above the influence of the pf? or is g just not a 'living being'? 😖hifty:
<<Destroying a host or absorbing the Phoenix power will have no effect on life as the Phoenix power would still permeate that universe.>>
agreed, and something i never contended.
<<However Galactus was attempting to put a stop to the Phoenix manifestation entering our plane of existence by separating Phoenix from its main host Rachel thereby banishing it to its point of origin (By current continuity the Crown). This would presumably sever all ties between the Phoenix consciousness and said reality resulting in the end of life and the absence of even the potential for life. >>
you clearly state this is your interpretation, and that is fine. as for me, i think g was going to destroy the manifestation of the pf in our universe, not 'send it back to the crown'. i suppose the results are the same, but i don't see anything to say he is simply 'ousting' it, nor do i buy the direct connection to god you're implying with your interpretation.
a couple other things: i would say whirly is quite correct (btw good to have you back AGAIN whirly! be nice if you played well with others and actually stuck around for a while this time -- it's more fun WITH you here!) in saying daeth does indeed hold great power over the pf, though maybe not DIRECT power. but if death claimed all the souls in the universe -- ie -- left no one living, the pf would . . . die? return to its more complete multiversal aspect? there would be no chance for potential life upon which it might draw because all life is ended and there is no chance to procreate. would pf end the universe? if it did, it would have had its hand forced by death. that IS power over the pf.
and the pf doesn't ALWAYS bring about the end of univseres. abraxas brought about the deaths of COUNTLESS universes and seemed to endanger the multiverse itself while he was killing galactus's. the ultimate nullifier wiped out a universe in what if. when a universe is destroyed WITHOUT the pf to do it, what becomes of the pf?? no life, no potential life on which to draw power . . . what brings about the NEXT big bang?
it is also clearly stated that the goblin force destroyed the pf (not the avatar, not the consciousness, the FORCE itself), but life continued to go on in that universe. how?
i'll not get into its origins, as it is purely speculatory, other than to say i do not believe the pf was created outside the multiverse BEFORE the multiverse was created.
whew. it's on now . . . 😄
good post - each big bang has less power? 🙂
Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
strange that - I could point out - jgg 🙂 but it doesn't mean the celestials essence is lost it becomes scattered and can reassemble. Theories on other boards indicate As Galactus dies he becomes a celestial the evidence provided is no more or less stupid than the Phoenix evidence. 🙂 Handbook says they are immortal 🙂In the case of Abstracts dying - they are replaced with another version of the essence of they're purpose 🙂 jgg A universe without death does not work.
As stated in the latest Handbook Whirly Galactus was indeed killed in Galactus The Devourer when he was turned into inert energy. He was then resurrected by Franklin and Valeria Richards.
If you look back at my scans on this thread you'll see a conversation between Death and Big G which also infers that Big G can very well meet a conclusive end as he later did as aforementioned. 😄
A Celestial is a creation of Eternity (X-men 4eva) and so presumably is immortal as long as the universe is around same goes for the abstracts. However when the universe is brought to an end by Phoenix they along with the abstracts are absorbed into the White Hot Room and the abstracts are replaced by other beings in the next cycle.
So yes while the role of abstract is integral for each cycle and is always open an abstract can be killed and its slot occupied by another being so yes they can be killed. 😉
Originally posted by leonidas
okay . . . you asked for it!!😄<<As you can see even during the 86 retcon era such a line of thought is incorrect. The Phoenix Force isn’t merely the sum of all psychic energy generated by the minds of sentient beings. It is the power from which all life springs. It predated life, its power sustains life. You got that Leo?!!! Lol>>
hahahh! i actually have that book. that is a unique version of pf -- it seems to indicate that pf is responsible for creating STARS. (hence all the references to the STARCHILDE) the energy from stars leads to life, that is clear, but that is an indirect relationship. it's a relationship i can accept though as it means pf is not DIRECTLY resonsible for granting life, only responsible for the birth of stars which then MAY lead to life in the universe. and of course any potential life is possible because of stars as well. i actually like that interpretation in those first scans!
ahhh, the infamous galactus scans from excaliber. again supporting the association of the pf with stars and not directly with life. if the pf were snuffed out the stars would die. if stars die, life will not end immediately. it would go on but it couldn't last without stellar energy creating all the elements that are needed to support life. so my earlier premise was correct -- if the pf were gone, life would not cease to exist all at once -- ie life is not synonymous with the pf. instead, life would gradually come to an end because there are no more stars. that's a notion i can handle.
No thats cool. If you wish to think that then you're welcome to. However if Phoenix is the Big Bang then everything that is within said universe is Phoenix. That stands to reason and explain why Phoenix says "all that is i am" or why its stated that the Phoenix manifestations are "the sum and substance of all that lives" or why its stated in F4 that Phoenix is the very energies of creation that make Galactus who he is. Stars are just the biggest concentration in a universe of the life energy that is Phoenix.
Originally posted by leonidas
those scans ARE a bit paradoxical, however, gs. unless you don't think galactus is a 'living being'. it is clearly implied g would survive the destruction, and would continue to 'live' in a lifeless, desolate universe. so is g then above the influence of the pf? or is g just not a 'living being'? 😖hifty:
If you read the scan Death questions whether Galactus could survive the void. However i agree it does seem like the death would be eventual but nonetheless all life would end if Phoenix withdrew its power from creation. That much stands to reason.
Originally posted by leonidas
<<Destroying a host or absorbing the Phoenix power will have no effect on life as the Phoenix power would still permeate that universe.>>agreed, and something i never contended.
Cool.
Originally posted by leonidas
<<However Galactus was attempting to put a stop to the Phoenix manifestation entering our plane of existence by separating Phoenix from its main host Rachel thereby banishing it to its point of origin (By current continuity the Crown). This would presumably sever all ties between the Phoenix consciousness and said reality resulting in the end of life and the absence of even the potential for life. >>you clearly state this is your interpretation, and that is fine. as for me, i think g was going to destroy the manifestation of the pf in our universe, not 'send it back to the crown'. i suppose the results are the same, but i don't see anything to say he is simply 'ousting' it, nor do i buy the direct connection to god you're implying with your interpretation.
If you read it again you'll see Galactus actually states he is returning Phoenix "to the comos from whence it came" Roma goes on to talk of how you cant seperate the Phoenix from Rachel, that theyre joined by the natural order of things. From that its quite obvious that Galactus was merely exorcising the Phoenix from Rachel, not destroying it which by all accounts he could not conclusively do.
You dont hav to buy the God thing, you dont have to like it, however you must accept that a connection has been established by some writers over the years. Thats very clear.
Originally posted by leonidas
a couple other things: i would say whirly is quite correct (btw good to have you back AGAIN whirly! be nice if you played well with others and actually stuck around for a while this time -- it's more fun WITH you here!) in saying daeth does indeed hold great power over the pf, though maybe not DIRECT power. but if death claimed all the souls in the universe -- ie -- left no one living, the pf would . . . die? return to its more complete multiversal aspect? there would be no chance for potential life upon which it might draw because all life is ended and there is no chance to procreate. would pf end the universe? if it did, it would have had its hand forced by death. that IS power over the pf.
Phoenix is that wellspring of life energy she is that potential. People and the universe are that potential realised. Death and Phoenix are linked and their efforts often help each other out. However as Death says in the scans it is just a frame for the life Phoenix brings about nothing more. It helps give Phoenixes work structure as do the other abstracts however Phoenix operates and exists beyond the universal level as well where Death has no power. If every living person died Phoenix would still be able to manifest through the abstracts who themselves are sentient. Thats how the Big Bang was initiated in the first place, through the sentience of Eternity. The abstracts are then replaced by Phoenix at the end of the universal life cycle.
Originally posted by leonidas
and the pf doesn't ALWAYS bring about the end of univseres. abraxas brought about the deaths of COUNTLESS universes and seemed to endanger the multiverse itself while he was killing galactus's. the ultimate nullifier wiped out a universe in what if. when a universe is destroyed WITHOUT the pf to do it, what becomes of the pf?? no life, no potential life on which to draw power . . . what brings about the NEXT big bang?
You've got it wrong. Im usually careful to say that in the natural scheme of things Phoenix brings about the end of a universe. Phoenix is that wellspring of life energy from which all life is derived from, however life feeds on life so if Phoenix was sentient on the physical plane it would feed on the life energy allocated for a universe. Therefore it acts through avatars and manifests through sentient minds. If a universe is destroyed then that energy will eventually be looped back into another universal life cycle i guess.
Originally posted by leonidas
it is also clearly stated that the goblin force destroyed the pf (not the avatar, not the consciousness, the FORCE itself), but life continued to go on in that universe. how?
Incorrect. It said the Goblin Force destroyed the Force by adding its power to its own. It never wiped it from existence in that universe. We've already discussed why such an action would have no effect on life in said universe.
Originally posted by leonidas
i'll not get into its origins, as it is purely speculatory, other than to say i do not believe the pf was created outside the multiverse BEFORE the multiverse was created.whew. it's on now . . . 😄
Well its actually stated in Alternate Universes that the Phoenix is native to the Crown. So that deals with that query i guess. 😉
Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
All this crown rubbish is retconned out GS accept it.🙂
If that was the case my friend the Crown wouldnt be mentioned in the very bio you claim heralds a retcon. Mentioned and referred to as the core of creation and the place where Phoenix heals itself.
The Alternate Universe HBook accounted for New X-mens Here Comes Tomorrow story arc and refers to the Crown as Phoenixs home dimension and the place Phoenix derived from.
Im sorry Whirly but youre quite conclusively incorrect. 🙁
It happens. 😉
<<However if Phoenix is the Big Bang then everything that is within said universe is Phoenix. That stands to reason and explain why Phoenix says "all that is i am" or why its stated that the Phoenix manifestations are "the sum and substance of all that lives">>
that doesn't make sense. if it IS all pervasive, how is it 'shattered' in 'THE END'? and why doesn't it simply reabsorb itself/remove itself from threats thereby edning their lives? i can't see it being 'in every one' or 'part of everyone'. it just doesn't work for me. the stars bit i can handle . . . 😄
<<If you read the scan Death questions whether Galactus could survive the void. >>
he does, but if the pf is essential to all life, and he was driving it from that universe, it should necessarily follow that g would certainly perish as well, along with all the abstracts. that is not what was implied in that scene. is g's role above the role of pf in a universe such that g could survive in a universe devoid of the pf?
<<You've got it wrong. Im usually careful to say that in the natural scheme of things Phoenix brings about the end of a universe. Phoenix is that wellspring of life energy from which all life is derived from, however life feeds on life so if Phoenix was sentient on the physical plane it would feed on the life energy allocated for a universe. Therefore it acts through avatars and manifests through sentient minds. If a universe is destroyed then that energy will eventually be looped back into another universal life cycle i guess. >>
you lost me here. i have WHAT wrong? you mean to say you never meant to imply that ONLY the pf can end universes? the case with the nullifier is still interesting as there would be no energy left to loop back. the nullifier supposedly . . . eliminates everything -- including energy. would it nullify the pf so it couldn't loop back into the cycle?
😖hifty:
<<Incorrect. It said the Goblin Force destroyed the Force by adding its power to its own. It never wiped it from existence in that universe. We've already discussed why such an action would have no effect on life in said universe. >>
curious what issue you're referring to where you say this happened?
<<Well its actually stated in Alternate Universes that the Phoenix is native to the Crown. So that deals with that query i guess.>>
and somewhere i suppose it says the crown is outside the mulitverse? do you have scans of the alternate handbook? i'd love to read the bit about the crown. might help clear some of this up.
Originally posted by leonidas
<<However if Phoenix is the Big Bang then everything that is within said universe is Phoenix. That stands to reason and explain why Phoenix says "all that is i am" or why its stated that the Phoenix manifestations are "the sum and substance of all that lives">>that doesn't make sense. if it IS all pervasive, how is it 'shattered' in 'THE END'? and why doesn't it simply reabsorb itself/remove itself from threats thereby edning their lives? i can't see it being 'in every one' or 'part of everyone'. it just doesn't work for me. the stars bit i can handle . . . 😄
It makes perfect sense. The Phoenix Force permeates all. At heart its a force of nature. The energies of creation which fueled the universe and touched all within. The universal manifestation only became sentient when it was probed by a mind. It was that sentience that awareness that was shattered. That is why you got the deranged Phoenix entity in Endsong as it was just a shard of a consciousness, it knew just half the story, it required Jean the main part to become complete and to finally understand.
You might not be able to see it Leo, it might not work for you but thats how it is. Thats whats stated on panel on many many occassions. Phoenix is called the sum and substance of all that lives, its described as the well spring from which the universe draws its sustenance and in F4 its called the energies of creation. That is quite conclusive. If you cant get your head around it thats your problem. It doesnt change whats stated on panel.
Originally posted by leonidas
<<If you read the scan Death questions whether Galactus could survive the void. >>he does, but if the pf is essential to all life, and he was driving it from that universe, it should necessarily follow that g would certainly perish as well, along with all the abstracts. that is not what was implied in that scene. is g's role above the role of pf in a universe such that g could survive in a universe devoid of the pf?
No. Galactus would eventually die as was implied by Deaths concern. With Phoenix gone all life would eventually die as Phoenix is the potential for, the wellspring of life. The universe would be cut off from its mains supply.
Originally posted by leonidas
<<You've got it wrong. Im usually careful to say that in the natural scheme of things Phoenix brings about the end of a universe. Phoenix is that wellspring of life energy from which all life is derived from, however life feeds on life so if Phoenix was sentient on the physical plane it would feed on the life energy allocated for a universe. Therefore it acts through avatars and manifests through sentient minds. If a universe is destroyed then that energy will eventually be looped back into another universal life cycle i guess. >>you lost me here. i have WHAT wrong? you mean to say you never meant to imply that ONLY the pf can end universes? the case with the nullifier is still interesting as there would be no energy left to loop back. the nullifier supposedly . . . eliminates everything -- including energy. would it nullify the pf so it couldn't loop back into the cycle?
😖hifty:
Ive never stated or implied that only Phoenix can end a universe. Thats preposterous especially in light of the beings who have destroyed universes in other realities. If you look through the various threads on Phoenix you'll see i tend to say in the natural scheme of things as a precaution. If i had said what youre implying im sure many others would have made a comment on it prior to yourself. That hasnt happened. Your misinterpretation not my problem.
As for your comment on the nullifier i dont have a clue what effect it would have if used on the Phoenix manifestation. But what does that have to do with anything? You dont know and it doesnt change the fact Phoenix is the energies of creation which fuels a universe. So its irrelevant.
Originally posted by leonidas
<<Incorrect. It said the Goblin Force destroyed the Force by adding its power to its own. It never wiped it from existence in that universe. We've already discussed why such an action would have no effect on life in said universe. >>curious what issue you're referring to where you say this happened?
Of course my friend. This one:
The Goblin Force absorbed the Phoenix Force Manifestation. We clear now?
Originally posted by leonidas
<<Well its actually stated in Alternate Universes that the Phoenix is native to the Crown. So that deals with that query i guess.>>and somewhere i suppose it says the crown is outside the mulitverse? do you have scans of the alternate handbook? i'd love to read the bit about the crown. might help clear some of this up.
I'll have to buy the Handbook or download it to show you a scan. (You can do that as well now Leo)
The Crown is accessible through the M'kraan crystal as shown in New X-men 154 and as stated in Uncanny X-men 108 the Crown is beyond time and space. For Jean to have been able to look down on the megaverse and hold 616 in her hand i would have thought the Crown being beyond the multiverse was quite obvious.
Get back to me with your thoughts 😄
Oooooo this is hotting up!!! 😂
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
It makes perfect sense. The Phoenix Force permeates all. At heart its a force of nature. The energies of creation which fueled the universe and touched all within. The universal manifestation only became sentient when it was probed by a mind. It was that sentience that awareness that was shattered. That is why you got the deranged Phoenix entity in Endsong as it was just a shard of a consciousness, it knew just half the story, it required Jean the main part to become complete and to finally understand.You might not be able to see it Leo, it might not work for you but thats how it is. Thats whats stated on panel on many many occassions. Phoenix is called the sum and substance of all that lives, its described as the well spring from which the universe draws its sustenance and in F4 its called the energies of creation. That is quite conclusive. If you cant get your head around it thats your problem. It doesnt change whats stated on panel.
No. Galactus would eventually die as was implied by Deaths concern. With Phoenix gone all life would eventually die as Phoenix is the potential for, the wellspring of life. The universe would be cut off from its mains supply.
Ive never stated or implied that only Phoenix can end a universe. Thats preposterous especially in light of the beings who have destroyed universes in other realities. If you look through the various threads on Phoenix you'll see i tend to say in the natural scheme of things as a precaution. If i had said what youre implying im sure many others would have made a comment on it prior to yourself. That hasnt happened. Your misinterpretation not my problem.
As for your comment on the nullifier i dont have a clue what effect it would have if used on the Phoenix manifestation. But what does that have to do with anything? You dont know and it doesnt change the fact Phoenix is the energies of creation which fuels a universe. So its irrelevant.
Of course my friend. This one:
The Goblin Force absorbed the Phoenix Force Manifestation. We clear now?
I'll have to buy the Handbook or download it to show you a scan. (You can do that as well now Leo)
The Crown is accessible through the M'kraan crystal as shown in New X-men 154 and as stated in Uncanny X-men 108 the Crown is beyond time and space. For Jean to have been able to look down on the megaverse and hold 616 in her hand i would have thought the Crown being beyond the multiverse was quite obvious.
Get back to me with your thoughts 😄
Oooooo this is hotting up!!! 😂
hrmph. as i said, my knowledge of pf isn't great, so it's hard to find inconsistencies that might upset your apple cart, but you've done a good job of making your case.
the goblin force is still a bit grey: it devoured it. it didn't absorb it. when i devour an apple it is no longer an apple. it is changed into many things. the word altered can be seen to mean more than you are implying. regardless, if it did devour it, and the celestials confined the goblin force, wouldn't that necessarily follow that the pf was ALSO confined -- ie seperated from the universe that needs it?
i'll take your word for the crown, though since it was not stated to be outside the megaverse, it is as easy to surmise it is the highest level attainable within the scope of the megaverse. also it would stand to reason since it is attainable via the crystal. why would the crystal be able to access a place outside the megaverse?
<<Ive never stated or implied that only Phoenix can end a universe. Thats preposterous especially in light of the beings who have destroyed universes in other realities. If you look through the various threads on Phoenix you'll see i tend to say in the natural scheme of things as a precaution. If i had said what youre implying im sure many others would have made a comment on it prior to yourself. That hasnt happened. Your misinterpretation not my problem. >>
😑
er, i basically said that . . . i was just trying to clear up in my head what you were trying to say . . . 😕
Originally posted by leonidas
hrmph. as i said, my knowledge of pf isn't great, so it's hard to find inconsistencies that might upset your apple cart, but you've done a good job of making your case.the goblin force is still a bit grey: it devoured it. it didn't absorb it. when i devour an apple it is no longer an apple. it is changed into many things. the word altered can be seen to mean more than you are implying. regardless, if it did devour it, and the celestials confined the goblin force, wouldn't that necessarily follow that the pf was ALSO confined -- ie seperated from the universe that needs it?
The Phoenix Manifestation is just ambient energy that fuels a universe. This wellspring, this force of nature takes the form of the raptor within the universe it fuels. By absorbing the raptor the Goblin Force gave itself access to that manifestations wellspring. Thats my understanding of that scene anyway lol. It explains why life didnt end in that universe despite the various accounts which show and state Phoenix to be the energies of creation.
Originally posted by leonidas
i'll take your word for the crown, though since it was not stated to be outside the megaverse, it is as easy to surmise it is the highest level attainable within the scope of the megaverse. also it would stand to reason since it is attainable via the crystal. why would the crystal be able to access a place outside the megaverse?
Galactus isnt stated to be physically stronger than The Hulk but anyone with common sense would perceive that to be the case judging from their comic book appearances. Surely strong implication on panel should suffice. Does everything need to be spelled out?
Inside the crystal it is stated on panel to be beyond reality. The Crown is stated to be contained within the crystal. Phoenix enters the Crown/White Hot Room via the crystal and from there she surveys the entire megaverse and from doing that she showed on panel she can view timelines to look at the past and see future outcomes. She then holds 616 in her hand before telekinetically rewinding time and changing the past. Im surprised that isnt enough.
<<Galactus isnt stated to be physically stronger than The Hulk but anyone with common sense would perceive that to be the case judging from their comic book appearances. Surely strong implication on panel should suffice. Does everything need to be spelled out?>>
it stands to reasons that a place exists in a place BEYOND places? 😑 why would it need to be outside the megaverse to fulfill all the obligations you need it to meet? odin can sit in his throne and survey all the nine worlds, but he is still within the framework of the multiverse. i see this 'crown' as a place very like that, only froma higher vantage point. climb a higher mountain you can see further than if you climb a smaller one . . .
and so the goblin force incident isn't completely clear in YOUR mind either . . . 😖hifty:
Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
You're still trapped with stuff Marvel now disregards GS - trying to make it fit because you liked a story. Give it up it doesn't fit.🙁
If i was wrong then you'd be able to pick apart either mine, Demi or Ills arguments. Noones done so.
There has been no retcon because not one point has changed. There are more things to take into consideration now but not one point of the original argument has been altered.
The x-men bio talks of the 616 Phoenix manifestation and all things to do with 616. It talks of the Crown and reaffirms its role as the core of creation and the origin point of creation.
The Alternate Universes bio talks of the events of Here Comes Tomorrow and again mentions the Crown confirming it as the home dimension of the Phoenix.
Nothings changed. This thread was intended to discredit Phoenix and its role in Marvel but all its done is reaffirm its position as the heart of Marvel creation. 😄
