So hierarchy in terms of importance to existence in the MU?
If that's case, its:
1)TOAA
2)Living Tribunal & Phoenix Force (Equally important. One protects what the other embodies. Not Jean).
3)Abstracts (conceptual manifestations of existence).
4)Everything else.
In terms of firepower, it's a completely different story.
Originally posted by illadelph12
So hierarchy in terms of importance to existence in the MU?If that's case, its:
1)TOAA
).
2)Living Tribunal & Phoenix Force (Equally important. One protects what the other embodies. [B]Not Jean
3)Abstracts (conceptual manifestations of existence).
4)Everything else.In terms of firepower, it's a completely different story. [/B]
Illadelph - the new handbook doesn't indicate the Phoenix embodies anything beyond the lifeforce of unborn generations. It has no link to the one above all at all.
Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Illadelph - the new handbook doesn't indicate the Phoenix embodies anything beyond the lifeforce of unborn generations. It has no link to the one above all at all.
Okay, so tell me what's more important than the essence of all future possibility?
And also, tell me how TOAA is not responsible for all possibility that is the Marvel Universe, which is Phoenix.
Written or unwritten, all things Marvel are linked to TOAA.
Phoenix equates to the essence of all life by that handbooks own admission.
Seems kind of important to me.
So, I'll reiterate:
1)TOAA
2)Living Tribunal (protector of all creation) and Phoenix Force (essence of all creation).
3)Abstracts (conceptual manifestations of existence).
4)Everything else.
I understand you guys are trying to stick it to GS, but your going about it all wrong.
I bear no malice or bias, I simply give opinions based on logical deduction.
I'm adamantly against GS's Kaballah influenced assertions about the Phoenix Force and Jean Grey, but it is clear, no matter how it is worded, that the Phoenix Force is the essence of all life and creation in the MU. The lifeforce of unborn generations, retro-active to the dawn of time, equates to the life force of ALL generations, because Phoenix was spawned in creation's conception, meaning it predates "life", meaning all that live, and all that will live, are of Phoenix.
Try again.
Originally posted by illadelph12
Okay, so tell me what's more important than the essence of all future possibility?And also, tell me how TOAA is not responsible for all possibility that is the Marvel Universe, which is Phoenix.
Written or unwritten, all things Marvel are linked to TOAA.
Phoenix equates to the essence of all life by that handbooks own admission.
Seems kind of important to me.
So, I'll reiterate:
1)TOAA
2)Living Tribunal (protector of all creation) and Phoenix Force (essence of all creation).
3)Abstracts (conceptual manifestations of existence).
4)Everything else.I understand you guys are trying to stick it to GS, but your going about it all wrong.
I bear no malice or bias, I simply give opinions based on logical deduction.
I'm adamantly against GS's Kaballah influenced assertions about the Phoenix Force and Jean Grey, but it is clear, no matter how it is worded, that the Phoenix Force is the essence of all life and creation in the MU. The lifeforce of unborn generations, retro-active to the dawn of time, equates to the life force of ALL generations, because Phoenix was spawned in creation's conception, meaning it predates "life", meaning all that live, and all that will live, are of Phoenix.
Try again.
I slightly disagree becuase the phoenix is powered by the life force of the unborn and everytime the force uses its powers, future unborns are not concieved ergo by existing in the present it destroys the future.
🙂 I don't know if that makes sense to you 🙂 but it does to me.
It actually destroys future possibilities.
Keep the faith 🙂
Stay Whirly 🤘
Originally posted by Creshosk
If Eternity and even LT are alive . . . and phoenix is the essence of all life. . . then wouldn't that mean that. . .
😂 No!!!
its derived from - and is the manifestation of....
not the other way about. 🙂
derived
adjective
Stemming from an original source:
derivational, derivative, secondary.
See kin.
it comes from the universes lifeforce it does not created it.
Superhuman Powers:
The Phoenix Force is an immortal, indestructible, and mutable manifestation of the prime universal force of life, dirived from the psyches of all living beings. In it's natural state, this life-cycle is enough to sustain the Force. However, in order to manifest itself on the physical plane, the Force must tap into the near limitless source of energy provided by life-force reserved for future generations, thus denying them existance. The Force can wield this energy to project beams of immense concussive force, as well as transmigrate throughout time and space by folding its energy back into itself, causing it to collapse akin to a black hole, then it reforms itself upon reaching it's destination, like the Phoenix of Earth legend.
While possessing a human host, the Force is able to augment any super-powers they have to vastly higher levels.
HISTORY:
Born of the void between states of being, the Phoenix Force is a child of the universe. In the dying moments of the previous universe, the Force saved all existence from eternal damnation, enabling Eternity to preserve the humanoid Galan, ensuring his re-creation as Galactus. The Force was subsequently reborn from the cosmic fires of the “Big Bang.” Later, it encountered the malevolent Le Bete Noir and trapped it in the center of a still cooling planet. The Force was drawn back to Earth when it was awakened to reality by Feron, a sorcerer from an alternate Earth who had traveled with his master Necrom to a tower on Earth 616 to witness an alignment of dimensional interfaces. The Force joined with Feron, allowing itself to be shaped by his dreams into the form of a giant fiery bird and experiencing a spectrum of new sensations. At the moment of the alignment, Feron bade the Force to project the essence of the tower throughout the multiverse, so that it existed on every plane of reality simultaneously, creating an energy matrix to allow him to compress all alternate Earths into a singularity, the energy released from which endow him with godlike power, and to that end he tore out the portion of the Force that had bonded to Feron. In agonized confusion over the violation of its essence, the Force fled. Necrom bound the stolen Force with a portion of his own essence, and left it to incubate in a corpse he dubbed the Anti-Phoenix.
In time, the Force’s pain subsided and it discovered that it was unable to return to its natural state. Hundreds of years later, the Force learned that the universe would come under threat from manipulation of the M’kraan Crystal – a hypercubical nexus of realities – by the mad Shi’ar Emperor D’Ken. To prevent this, the Force sought an avatar through which it could act and so return to Earth, seeking out Feron. Instead, the Force encountered Jean Grey, a member of the heroic mutant X-Men team, whose mind the Force had touched earlier. Grey was dying from the effects of solar radiation while piloting a damaged space shuttle. The Force appeared to Grey and offered to save her. She accepted, and so the Force created an exact duplicate of her body for itself, into which it transferred a portion of her consciousness. The Force then sealed her comatose body inside a healing cocoon, and after the shuttle crashed into Jamaica Bay near New York City, the Force emerged from the waters, calling itself Phoenix. The X-Men believed it to be the real Jean Grey, having died and returned to life with vast new powers. Phoenix and the X-Men opposed D’Ken, who exposed the universe to the tremendous gravitational forces contained within the Crystal’s core. Phoenix entered the Crystal and repaired the stasis field, thus saving the cosmos. Phoenix continued to serve as a member of the X-Men, but ultimately its human form was unable to cope with the Forces immense power. At first, Grey’s strong moral sense kept the Force in check, but Phoenix succumbed to the psionic manipulation of Jason Wyngarde (Mastermind). Unable to fully free itself of the sinister side of its personality that Wyngarde exposed it to, and with its human consciousness ill-equipped to repress it, the Force’s primal urges overwhelmed Phoenix, causing it to become the malevolent Dark Phoenix. Due to the limitations of its physical form, Dark Phoenix hungered for more energy and transported itself to the star D’Bari, absorbing all the energy from it. As a result, the star turned supernova, annihilating one of its planets. Dark Phoenix destroyed a Shi’ar starship which had attacked it in retaliation for the D’Bari’s deaths, then returned to Earth where it was opposed by the X-Men and Professor Xavier. He reinforced Grey’s personality, allowing Phoenix to reject its cosmic power.
The Shi’ar still judged it necessary to obliterate Phoenix’s powers entirely, lest it become Dark Phoenix again. The X-Men fought the ruling in a trial by combat against members of the Shi’ar’s Imperial Guard in the Blue Area of Earth’s moon, but during the battle Phoenix reverted to Dark Phoenix. Realizing that is could never fully retain control, Phoenix acted as the real Grey would have. Before the eyes of a horrified Cyclops, it committed suicide by telekinetically triggering an energy cannon, disintegrating its mortal shell. Later reflecting on its folly, the Force sought to undo the damage it had done by returning the life-force it had taken from Grey. On its return to Earth, it sensed the astral form of the time-traveling Rachel Summers, the daughter of Earth-811’s Jean Grey. After returning Grey’s missing life-force, which was instead received by Grey’s clone Madelyne Pryor, the Force followed Rachel back to the future of Earth-811. There, it revealed itself to Kate Pryde, who asked the Force to give Rachel a new lease on life. The Force agreed and took Rachel as its host, supercharging her ability to time travel and causing her to physically travel back in time to Earth-616. Rachel was unaware that she hosted the Force’s essence until she took on the codename Phoenix. The Force then bonded to her fully and ensured that Rachel could only access as much power as she could safely wield, having learned from its past mistake. Adventuring with Rachel and the British super-team Excalibur for a time, the Force ultimately encountered Necrom’s Anti-Phoenix. After a cataclysmic battle, Rachel was destroyed in the blast. The Force gathered her shattered psyche and restored her body, promising Excalibur to protect and nurture her until she fully healed. Through Rachel’s eyes, the Force was able to experience the simple beauty of existence. In space, it encountered the world-devourer Galactus, who revealed to the Force the nature of its existence. Tormented with the knowledge that its desire to explore humanity had prevented generations of life from being born, the Force fled. Rachel reentered the timestream and emerged some 2,000 years into the future of Earth-4935. There, she encountered Diamanda Nero, daughter of that era’s mutant despot Apocalypse, and, in order to defeat her, was forced to purge herself of the Force.
Free again, the Force traveled back into the past, drawn once again to Earth-616. En route, it was transported to the Ultraverse (Earth-93060) by a sentient alien starship that had crashed-landed there eons ago. Buried deep within the Earth, the ship sought to reunite itself with it’s twin trapped within Earth’s sun, and intended to use the Force’s energy to power the recombination. Impaled on a lance of energy that linked the two ships, the Force fought back and managed to free itself, though not before the ship was able to bond them empathetically. Wounded, the Force sought out a host to protect it as it healed. Inhabiting the body of the superstrong hero Prime, the Force was opposed by the X-Men and Prime’s teammates in UltraForce. Exhausting Prime’s physical form, the Force found another host in Amber Hunt, who had privously been possessed by the ships’ essence. The heroes were able to free Hunt from the Force, after which they took the fight to the ship, severing its link to the Force. Seeking revenge, the Force attacked the ship, threatening the stability of the planet. The heroes were able to drive the Force into another portal, and it emerged four billion years in the past. Unleashing vast energies while transmigrating itself through time and space, the Force inadvertently (and ironically) caused the damage to the ship that forced it to crash-land to begin with.
The Force returned to Earth-616 once more and manifested itself within Jean Grey before she was seemingly killed by an electromagnetic pulse. This shattered the Force into billions of pieces. Incubating in the core of creation known as the White Hot Room, the Force was ripped back to reality by a Shi’ar device that forcibly reconstituted it. Injured, the Force fell to Earth and sought out Cyclops to use his mutant optic power to heal itself. To that end, it searched for Cyclopss love Jean and, finding her dead, resurrected her to house its power once more. Opposed by the X-Men again, the Force was lured into possessing the body of Cyclops new love Emma Frost before Jean was able to reassert control. The Force realized that Jean was one of its missing pieces, its prime host, and so it merged with her fully. Returning to the White Hot Room, the Force set out to find it’s other pieces.
Keep the faith 🙂
Stay Whirly 🤘
Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
I slightly disagree becuase the phoenix is powered by the life force of the unborn and everytime the force uses its powers, future unborns are not concieved ergo by existing in the present it destroys the future.🙂 I don't know if that makes sense to you 🙂 but it does to me.
It actually destroys future possibilities.
Keep the faith 🙂
Stay Whirly 🤘
That's inherrently flawed Whirly.
Life in the Marvel Universe is perpetually infinite.
When one person dies another is born. When one universe ceases another is conceived. On a quantum level, at each moment divergent realities are spawned based on infinite possibilities, giving way to alternate universes and dimensions (basically, the "What If" comics).
There's always "What If?".
Phoenix is self sustaining.
Just as TOAA's initial will spawned infinite possibilities, so did it give conception to infinite amounts of possibilities for life, meaning Phoenix is perpetually sustained until TOAA deems otherwise.
As I said, try again.
I'm not an amateur, my friend.
Originally posted by illadelph12
That's inherrently flawed Whirly.Life in the Marvel Universe is perpetually infinite.
When one person dies another is born. When one universe ceases another is conceived. On a quantum level, at each moment divergent realities are spawned based on infinite possibilities, giving way to alternate universes and dimensions (basically, the "What If" comics).
There's always "What If?".
Phoenix is self sustaining.
Just as TOAA's initial will spawned infinite possibilities, so did it give conception to infinite amounts of possibilities for life, meaning Phoenix is perpetually sustained until TOAA deems otherwise.
As I said, try again.
I'm not an amateur, my friend.
From the handbook
"In order to manifest itself on the physical plane, the Force must tap into the near limitless source of energy provided by life-force reserved for future generations, thus denying them existance."
Take it up with them🙂
Keep the faith 🙂
Stay Whirly 🤘
Yes.
And the same handbook also says:
originally posted by Sir WhirlysplatThe Phoenix Force is an immortal, indestructible, and mutable manifestation of the prime universal force of life, dirived from the psyches of all living beings.
Meaning that, as I said, it is perpetually infinite, because time is fluid, not linear, and is also perpetually infinite, just as possibility is. Until TOAA deems an end to existence, the perepetual cycles of "life, death, and rebirth", "cause, effect, and consequence", and "action and reaction", will continue, meaning Phoenix will always exist.
No Phoenix is equal to no existence.
Unless your trying to say the essence of existence (Phoenix) isn't important to Marvel existence, you're just spinning your wheels and picking a losing battle to anyone with deductive reasoning, Whirly.
That handbook just reaffirms what GS has been saying for the last 5 months without all the colorful Kaballah musings and religious overtones.
Phoenix is all life manifested.
No Phoenix means there's no life.
Now please stop making me defend logic.
Your bias against a character is blinding you to what is right in front of you.
You're better than that.
Originally posted by illadelph12
Yes.And the same handbook also says:
Meaning that, as I said, it is perpetually infinite, because time is fluid, not linear, and is also perpetually infinite, just as possibility is. Until TOAA deems an end to existence, the perepetual cycles of "life, death, and rebirth", "cause, effect, and consequence", and "action and reaction", will continue, meaning Phoenix will always exist.
No Phoenix is equal to no existence.
Unless your trying to say the essence of existence (Phoenix) isn't important to Marvel [B]existence
, you're just spinning your wheels and picking a losing battle to anyone with deductive reasoning, Whirly.That handbook just reaffirms what GS has been saying for the last 5 months without all the colorful Kaballah musings and religious overtones.
Phoenix is all life manifested.
No Phoenix means there's no life.
Now please stop making me defend logic.
Your bias against a character is blinding you to what is right in front of you.
You're better than that. [/B]
the force can be damaged, and busted up, run away to the white hot room and it doesn't affect life in the 616 its a manifestation of the conciousness not the other way aroound life gives life to it so it can go back in time and start life its a catch 22 🙂 The force needed a host to protect it as it healed even. Still not affecting life 🙂 again take it up with Marvel.
"Wounded, the Force sought out a host to protect it as it healed. Inhabiting the body of the superstrong hero Prime, the Force was opposed by the X-Men and Prime’s teammates in UltraForce. Exhausting Prime’s physical form, the Force found another host in Amber Hunt, who had privously been possessed by the ships’ essence. The heroes were able to free Hunt from the Force, after which they took the fight to the ship, severing its link to the Force. Seeking revenge, the Force attacked the ship, threatening the stability of the planet. The heroes were able to drive the Force into another portal, and it emerged four billion years in the past. Unleashing vast energies while transmigrating itself through time and space, the Force inadvertently (and ironically) caused the damage to the ship that forced it to crash-land to begin with.
The Force returned to Earth-616 once more and manifested itself within Jean Grey before she was seemingly killed by an electromagnetic pulse. This shattered the Force into billions of pieces. Incubating in the core of creation known as the White Hot Room, the Force was ripped back to reality by a Shi’ar device that forcibly reconstituted it. Injured, the Force fell to Earth and sought out Cyclops to use his mutant optic power to heal itself. To that end, it searched for Cyclopss love Jean and, finding her dead, resurrected her to house its power once more. Opposed by the X-Men again, the Force was lured into possessing the body of Cyclops new love Emma Frost before Jean was able to reassert control. The Force realized that Jean was one of its missing pieces, its prime host, and so it merged with her fully. Returning to the White Hot Room, the Force set out to find it’s other pieces."
Keep the faith 🙂
Stay Whily 🤘
The problem is your trying to apply logic to character without any thats why your theory doesn't fit with what the handbook says.
Keep the faith 🙂
Stay Whirly 🤘
My "theory" fits perfectly with what the handbook says, Whirly, it just doesn't fit your agenda.
Phoenix is life and life is Phoenix.
They are synonymous.
So long as there is life there will be Phoenix because they are one and the same.
The fact that the Force can be wounded or misused doesn't change the fact it will still exist so long as life exists.
If Phoenix were destroyed or ceased to exist, all things that live or will live would be destroyed and Living Tribunal would have no purpose.
Sounds kind of important to me.
It's very simple.
TOAA begets life, which is "Phoenix", and is in and of all things, because all things are of TOAA, just as in reality (if you believe in creation), God begets life, which is the Holy Spirit, which is in and of all things, because all things are of God.
Existence is a physical manifestation of God's will (or thought). The Marvel Multiverse is a physical manifestation of TOAA's will (or thought).
Does thought breed possibility or does possibility breed thought?
Man, I'm getting to deep for a comic debate...
Anyway:
Phoenix is and is of life.
No Phoenix means there's no life.
Behind TOAA, Phoenix is the most important thing, because if there's no Phoenix there's no life.
Living Tribunal is equally as important because he protects life and the life cycle.
The Abstracts are representations of defining concepts of existence, so they fall a step behind in the order, but are still very important in the fabric of existence.
Creator.
Creation/Protection of Creation.
Concepts of Creation.
[I'm about to get off from work, so I'll continue this either tomorrow or Monday, if necessary].