Marvel Hierarchy revised as of December 2005

phoenix is derived FROM life. form the handbook that much is clear. in that regard, phoenix could not exist WITHOUT life/living beings, but where do you get it that life couldn't go on without pf? it sounds like there is some sort of 'pool' of energy reserved (by toaa?) for 'future generations'. the handbook also states this energy IS finite (despite your protestations, ill is DOES say it is finite).

however, that said, i do place more importance on pf than whirly does in his hierarchy, though i don't think he has an 'agenda' per se . . .

Originally posted by leonidas
phoenix is derived FROM life. form the handbook that much is clear. in that regard, phoenix could not exist WITHOUT life/living beings, but where do you get it that life couldn't go on without pf? it sounds like there is some sort of 'pool' of energy reserved (by toaa?) for 'future generations'. the handbook also states this energy IS finite (despite your protestations, ill is DOES say it is finite).

however, that said, i do place more importance on pf than whirly does in his hierarchy, though i don't think he has an 'agenda' per se . . .

Some of these things would be easier to explain in person.

I'll try to explain my view more clearly, leo:

Phoenix is a manifestation of all life, living and unborn.

originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
The Phoenix Force is an immortal, indestructible, and mutable manifestation of the prime universal force of life, dirived from the psyches of all living beings.

Phoenix is dirived from the living and the unborn from the dawn of creation.

It's a manifestation of all life force allotted for living beings by TOAA.

If you were to destroy it, you would have to destroy it's sum, which is the life force of all beings that live or will ever live.

As for it being "finite", that's relative, because anything that has a beginning has an end (except God).

If all life ends, which is a possibility, because TOAA could decide life is a failed venture and should be terminated (Marvel goes out of business), Phoenix would cease to exist, meaning it's existence is finite. Given the perpetual nature of life, and the fact that Phoenix is a direct manifestation of the life force that fuels all life ever, it has an infinite supply of power so long as life exists.

Infinite supply of power within a finite span of time.

Metaphorically speaking, if life were a race that lasted for an hour, and living beings were cars, Phoenix would be all the fuel that powers all the vehicles not only in the race, but all the vehicles that could ever enter the race, until the race ends.

So long as their is life, there is Phoenix, and so long as there is Phoenix, there is life. They are one and the same.

If nothing lives, Phoenix can't exist.

If anything lives, even one being, there is Phoenix, because it's the life force of anything that lives.

If a cup of water is dirived from a pool it doesn't cease being water.

hmm...that was good

<<So long as their is life, there is Phoenix,>>

agreed. i've never questioned that. this idea is stating exactly what is stated in the handbook.

<<If nothing lives, Phoenix can't exist.
If anything lives, even one being, there is Phoenix, because it's the life force of anything that lives.>>

again, i agree completely. you're just restating what you said earlier.

<<Phoenix is a direct manifestation of the life force that fuels all life ever,>>

i agree again, but i THINK it is here that we just start to deviate in our views a bit. i understand completely what it is you are saying and agree. i'm just not sure you WANT me to agree with this part . . . the word MANIFESTATION would appear to cause you a problem here in that it is saying the pf is MANIFESTED FROM life. ie -- without life, pf would not exist (as we've said already). i'm not questioning that. what i question is this:

<<and so long as there is Phoenix, there is life. They are one and the same. >>

that MAY be true, but if you're saying life CANNOT exist without the pf, i just want to know where you get that idea from. again -- pf is DERIVED from life/is a MANIFESTATION OF life. pf needed/needs life. we agree there. but . . . where do you get the notion that life would cease without the pf?

<<If a cup of water is dirived from a pool it doesn't cease being water.>>

hmm, true of course. but (A) the cup of water couldn't/wouldn't exist had you not 'derived' it from the pool. and (B) if i dump the cup of water, the pool is left unaffected . . .

😛

Hmm.... I'll stick with the Wolverine Spidey thread.... 😂 !!!

😄

good idea. these damn threads will give you a headache!!

blowup

bump. cuz i KNOW illadelphia is gonna want to respond to this . . .

Given that every Big Bang kicks off a manifestation of the Phoenix Force, I would say that the Phoenix Force being the sum total of life only applies to that universe that its manifestation embodies. That means that the avatar of the Phoenix is limited to the amount of life that will exist in the lifecycle of that universe. The universe has a finite lifecycle because it is that Phoenix manifestation itself that destroys the universe. So I would contend that the power of the Phoenix is quite finite because there is NOT an infinite amount of future life....it ends when the universe ends. When the next universe begins, the cycle starts over with a new manifestation of the Phoenix Force.

Now here's the kicker - that limitation only applies to the wielder of the Phoenix Force. Jean Grey, in a battle, is limited to the total power of the future life of the universe. The Phoenix Force itself exists outside the multiverse, automatically putting it above universal beings and even above Multi-Eternity, who embodies the multiverse. It's responsible for the creation of the universes that become a part of Multi-Eternity. Essentially, each Universe is a Mercedes, Multi-Eternity is the Mercedes Warehouse, and Phoenix Force is the Mercedes Factory. While you can't say which is more important because they rely upon each other, if the Mercedes Factory breaks down....that's the end of Mercedes.

I'd put it this way. In terms of the hierarchy of IMPORTANCE to the Marvel Multiverse:

1. TOAA
2. Phoenix Force
3. LT
4. Multi-Eternity
5. Abstracts
6. Phoenix Manifestation
7. Eternity
8. Galactus
9. In-Betweener
10. Celestials

How could you put In Betweener above Celestials ??

phoenix is a crock of shit

[QUOTE=5506504]Originally posted by demigawd
[B]I'd put it this way. In terms of the hierarchy of IMPORTANCE to the Marvel Multiverse:

1. Reedforce
2. TOAA
3. Phoenix Force
4. LT
5. Multi-Eternity
6. Abstracts
7. Phoenix Manifestation
8. Eternity
9. Galactus
10. In-Betweener

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
1 - TOAA
2 - Living Tribunal
3 - True Beyonders (Multiversal)
4 - Eternity the sum total of the 616 Universe (but not great in a battle as he can be subverted by many objects including THOTU and IG)
5 - Posessor of the HOTU
6 - Posessor of the IG
7 - Celestials
8 - Phoenix Force (perhaps) the sum total of the generations to be born, a finite number and a finite power level as of THOMU's most recent edition.
9 - Galactus - Death (is death equal to the life force e.g. Phoenix or greater 😕 she could just be)
10 Chaos, Order, Infinity, (are they equal to death and life as they effect the perception of both in the Marvel Universe).

Remember hierarchy is not just about power of winning in a fight its about everything fitting together and having a place. For the Marvel Universe to work some of these elements are essential. Some are not. I am not sure the Marvel Universe actually has a hierarchy that is not flexible due to situations after The One Above All who is obviously the pinnacle.

This is of course only my opinion and many may disagree.

Stay Whirly 🙂

Keep the faith 🤘

Your thoughts?

Disgusting list.
Living Tribunal>HOTU?
Celestial>Galactus?
Eternity>IG?
And Living Tribunal>Phoenix Force?

1. TOAA
2. HOTU
3. Phoenix Force
4. Living Tribunal
5. IG

We dont know much about Infinites, but they are ceratinly beyond Eternity and also IG.

Originally posted by Wild Cowboy
How could you put In Betweener above Celestials ??

Because he's the universal concept thats keep chaos & order equal. I think that's more important than some godly genetic scientists.

Originally posted by Wild Cowboy
How could you put In Betweener above Celestials ??

Maestro beat me to it.

Originally posted by Tony Stark
[QUOTE=5506504]Originally posted by demigawd
[B]I'd put it this way. In terms of the hierarchy of IMPORTANCE to the Marvel Multiverse:

1. Reedforce
2. TOAA
3. Phoenix Force
4. LT
5. Multi-Eternity
6. Abstracts
7. Phoenix Manifestation
8. Eternity
9. Galactus
10. In-Betweener

haha....actually according to FF, Reed replaced the original role of Eternity inside an instance of the universe. So that would make Reedforce tied with Eternity for #7.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Disgusting list.
Living Tribunal>HOTU?
Celestial>Galactus?
Eternity>IG?
And Living Tribunal>Phoenix Force?

1. TOAA
2. HOTU
3. Phoenix Force
4. Living Tribunal
5. IG

We dont know much about Infinites, but they are ceratinly beyond Eternity and also IG.

We're not talking about power, we're talking about importance. HOTU and IG are not important to the existence of the multiverse

Ya know, on the Thundercats, Mumm-Ra used to always say "Where ever evil exist, Mumm-Ra lived." He'd also boast that he couldn't be destroyed as long as evil existed somewhere in the universe.

It seems that as long as there was evil anywhere, Mumm-Ra would continue to exist. Now, does that mean that evil could not exist in the universe without Mumm-Ra? No. Does that mean that Mumm-Ra could not exist without evil? Probably yes.

I see this as the same situation with the Phoenix Force and life. Could life exist without the Phoenix Force? Yes. Could the Phoenix Force exist without life? No.

Originally posted by leonidas
bump. cuz i KNOW illadelphia is gonna want to respond to this . . .

😆

You know me too well leo.

The reason why I believe life can not exist without Phoenix is simple:

Phoenix is the manifestation of all lifeforce for all things Marvel, past, present and future. This we both agree upon (as you've stated above).

The place where we disagree is all based upon the word "derived" being used in the bio, and the context each of us interpret it in.

I'm assessing from your posts you believe that Phoenix is somehow separate from the allotted energy that is lifeforce, and life could live on if Phoenix didn't exist.

I see it as this:

TOAA assigned a bastion of power to fuel all Marvel life, ever.

This power is semi-sentient in nature and is called the Phoenix Force.

For all intents and purposes, the Phoenix Force is simply another name for the Holy Spirit.
They both serve the same roll.

By technicality, all things that live have the Phoenix Force in them, because all things that live come from the energy TOAA assigned for life.

The Phoenix Force can, when necessary, manifest itself in the physical plane within an avatar, but in doing so it becomes self consuming and shortens the life span of the particular universe it manifests in.

Due to the perpetual nature of life in the Marvel Multiverse (i.e.: universes dying and being reborn as new verses), the Phoenix is both self-consuming and self-sustaining because life begets life.

Where we disagree is at the point where you believe there is a separation between Phoenix and lifeforce. Phoenix is a direct manifestation of the prime force of life, which is "derived" from all living things. The prime force of life is the power that TOAA allotted for all life. Life derives from Phoenix and Phoenix derives from life. That's what Phoenix is. It's

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
an immortal, indestructible, and mutable manifestation of the prime universal force of life

Life and Phoenix are co-dependent.

You can't have one without the other.

Everything that lives has a soul.

I wish I could explain this vocally, it would be far easier to convey.

Anyway, I agree with demi's list save I believe Phoenix and Living Tribunal are equally important, so they'd both be at 2 on my list. I believe it's equally as important to protect creation as it is to fuel it.

And what the hell is the Reedforce? Is this another of the board's inside jokes like Flash Prime?

Originally posted by illadelph12

I wish I could explain this vocally, it would be far easier to convey.

I think Ill's asking for your number. serenade

Anyway, I agree with demi's list save I believe Phoenix and Living Tribunal are equally important, so they'd both be at 2 on my list. I believe it's equally as important to protect creation as it is to fuel it.

I see what you're saying, but I give a slight edge to creating life. Life can exist without protecting it, but if there's no life, there's nothing to protect. Without the LT, the multiverse becomes the wild west - dangerous, chaotic and in constant danger, but will still exist indefinitely. If anything, without the LT, the creation/destruction cycles would just happen more often, which isn't that dire.

And what the hell is the Reedforce? Is this another of the board's inside jokes like Flash Prime?

In FF, Reed and some cosmic something or other kicked off the creation of 616 by asking "why", which is something that Eternity was said to have done before.

why does every thread dealing with hierarchy or omnipotent-type being eveentually result into a thread about phoenix?

Originally posted by Ethereal
why does every thread dealing with hierarchy or omnipotent-type being eveentually result into a thread about phoenix?

because Phoenix is an omnipotent-type being who is part of the hierarchy?