Originally posted by Ethereal
why does every thread dealing with hierarchy or omnipotent-type being eveentually result into a thread about phoenix?
Originally posted by demigawd[i]
I think Ill's asking for your number.
😆
Nah homie, Illa's no switch hitter. Unless leo's Vida Guerra, Jessica Alba or Skyy Black, I'm not trying to holla. I'm just saying it's easier to explain things in person because online I can't convey what I'm saying as well as I could vocally.
[i]originally posted by demigawd
In FF, Reed and some cosmic something or other kicked off the creation of 616 by asking "why", which is something that Eternity was said to have done before.
Oh, the "Space Bunny".
I think that the "Space Bunny" is Eternity, actually.
By technicality, when Reed went back to the "pre-creation hesitation" and asked "Why", it actually meant that Eternity kicked off the creation of the 616 universe because Reed is a part of Eternity's sum.
Reed was having the same experience Eternity had at the same time with the same result, save Reed was witnessing it with his own perceptions.
Basically, Reed was kind of a participant and voyeur of the conception of 616.
Originally posted by BlaqChaos
Because the Phoenix Force is the one variable that people seem to disagree most about. Every knows and agress on the abilities, limits, and purpose of the Living Tribunal, Eternity, Death, etc.
I think 90% of the people agree with 90% of Phoenix.
It's that 10/10 that'll kill you....
<<I think Ill's asking for your number. >>
😆
<<For all intents and purposes, the Phoenix Force is simply another name for the Holy Spirit.
They both serve the same roll. >>
ah ha! now you're arguing gs's hypothetical ph/toaa relationship! the difference (as i see it) is this:
holy spirit a direct emanation/manifestation/derivation FROM GOD.
pf derived NOT from toaa, but rather the 'psyches' of all living beings. there is a degree of seperation between toaa and pf. there is NO seperation between god/holy spirit.
this is beginning to sound like our astroforce/power cosmic discussion! 😄
let me ask you (and demi, since you're weighing in) this:
what order were things created by toaa? i'd say he created the universe (first big bang?) then created life from which was DERIVED the pf (perhaps at toaa's wishing/behest) because it was derived FROM/is a MANIFESTATION OF life, it stands to reason life existed BEFORE the pf, hence life can/has/did exist without a pf. if not, from what was the pf derived?
anway, as far as the hierarchy:
<<1. TOAA
2. Phoenix Force
3. LT
4. Multi-Eternity
5. Abstracts
6. Phoenix Manifestation
7. Eternity
8. Galactus
9. In-Betweener
10. Celestials>>
this is pretty close to what i'd say, 'cept i'd swap 2 & 3 and not include the phoenix manifestation. i'd also consider inbetweener more an abstract since it embodies the concept of absolutes. people keep including the ig and hotu but why? what do they actually contribute to the lifecycle of the multiverse? what are their purposes (other than to be used as overpowered, bullcrap excuses of PIS)?
Originally posted by demigawd
We're not talking about power, we're talking about importance. HOTU and IG are not important to the existence of the multiverse
Aha
Than it:
1. Obviously TOAA, he alone is the only trully important, cause he created everthing. He only made LT to do some job, to protect, while Phoenix Force is ascpet of God.
Originally posted by leonidas
<<I think Ill's asking for your number. >>😆
<<For all intents and purposes, the Phoenix Force is simply another name for the Holy Spirit.
They both serve the same roll. >>ah ha! now you're arguing gs's hypothetical ph/toaa relationship! the difference (as i see it) is this:
holy spirit a direct emanation/manifestation/derivation FROM GOD.
pf derived NOT from toaa, but rather the 'psyches' of all living beings. there is a degree of seperation between toaa and pf. there is NO seperation between god/holy spirit.
this is beginning to sound like our astroforce/power cosmic discussion! 😄
let me ask you (and demi, since you're weighing in) this:
what order were things created by toaa? i'd say he created the universe (first big bang?) then created life from which was DERIVED the pf (perhaps at toaa's wishing/behest) because it was derived FROM/is a MANIFESTATION OF life, it stands to reason life existed BEFORE the pf, hence life can/has/did exist without a pf. if not, from what was the pf derived?
anway, as far as the hierarchy:
<<1. TOAA
2. Phoenix Force
3. LT
4. Multi-Eternity
5. Abstracts
6. Phoenix Manifestation
7. Eternity
8. Galactus
9. In-Betweener
10. Celestials>>this is pretty close to what i'd say, 'cept i'd swap 2 & 3 and not include the phoenix manifestation. i'd also consider inbetweener more an abstract since it embodies the concept of absolutes. people keep including the ig and hotu but why? what do they actually contribute to the lifecycle of the multiverse? what are their purposes (other than to be used as overpowered, bullcrap excuses of PIS)?
Hmm...
I see what you're saying Leo, but the Phoenix Force predates life as well. It's the life force of the living and the unborn, retroactive to the dawn of creation.
Essentially, when TOAA decided he was going to create life, he set in place a mass of his power which would fuel all of creation. This mass of energy is life, which is also Phoenix.
They are the same thing.
Life comes from TOAA.
Phoenix comes from Life.
Phoenix comes from the same place Life does, TOAA.
There are no degrees of separation.
Life energy and the Phoenix Force are one and the same.
Phoenix didn't exist until TOAA willed life to commence.
Phoenix is the lifeforce of anything that will ever live, unborn and living.
Nothing has lived that hasn't been infused with the Phoenix Force.
Your getting to caught up with the word "derivitive".
Life is derived from TOAA.
Phoenix is derived from Life, which is derived from TOAA.
Phoenix, then, is derived from TOAA.
All things Marvel are derived from TOAA.
Phoenix is the manifestation of the prime force of life of anything that will ever live in Marvel.
As for the Holy Spirit comparison, I don't mean in a religious context, I mean in purpose. All things that live, according to the Bible, were created of and infused with the Holy Spirit. It's the lifeforce of all things created by God. I'm not an advocate of the other dillusions GS was spouting about sephorahs and kaballah, etc, I'm just making a general comparison of the roles of the 2 energy sources because they suit the same purpose.
Yo, by the way, the conversations on here, or at least the ones I've actually chosen to take an interest in, have been really good lately.
Originally posted by Xplosive
AhaThan it:
1. Obviously TOAA, he alone is the only trully important, cause he created everthing. He only made LT to do some job, to protect, while Phoenix Force is ascpet of God.
Phoenix isn't an aspect of God. Phoenix is just the energy God places in all things that will ever live.
Originally posted by leonidas
<<For all intents and purposes, the Phoenix Force is simply another name for the Holy Spirit.
They both serve the same roll. >>
I like being served rolls! especially if they're hot and buttered!
holy spirit a direct emanation/manifestation/derivation FROM GOD.pf derived NOT from toaa, but rather the 'psyches' of all living beings. there is a degree of seperation between toaa and pf. there is NO seperation between god/holy spirit.
I actually have to side with Leon, here. I'd also submit that there's a higher degree of separation between the Phoenix Force and TOAA than between TOAA and the Holy Spirit. The PF is the fuel that powers the creation cycles of each universe. Each manifestation of the Phoenix is responsible for the stuff of that universe. In that sense, the Phoenix Manifestation and the Universe are inextricably linked and co-dependent, however, I don't see a higher spiritual connection to TOAA there.
let me ask you (and demi, since you're weighing in) this:what order were things created by toaa? i'd say he created the universe (first big bang?) then created life from which was DERIVED the pf (perhaps at toaa's wishing/behest) because it was derived FROM/is a MANIFESTATION OF life, it stands to reason life existed BEFORE the pf, hence life can/has/did exist without a pf. if not, from what was the pf derived?
That's a fair question. The way it seems in the Marvel Universe, the TOAA actually has very little direct input in anything. He's very much a hands-off manager. The way I see it, it occurred in this order:
1. TOAA created blueprints for all creation and loaded them all up in a package that he called "The Phoenix Force".
2. He set aside a space among the infinite for where these creations will exist side by side as a multiverse. This space a became known as Multi-Eternity and was granted sentience.
3. TOAA created LT to judge the multiverse and to carry out TOAA's rulings and laws, ensuring that the blueprints are followed correctly. Multi-Eternity is bound by those laws.
4. The Phoenix Force exists in the White Hot Room, a place outside of Multi-Eternity, and hands out universes to Multi-Eternity the way the Easter Bunny hands out eggs. Essentially, Multi-Eternity is a jig-saw puzzle of infinite size, each piece of the puzzle is a universe, and the Phoenix Force is the person putting the puzzle together. TOAA is Milton-Bradley.
5. Each "egg" added to Multi-Eternity is unhatched until Eternity, being a self-UNaware aspect of Multi-Eternity, asks "Why?". That triggers the hatching, creating a Big Bang (or manifestation of the Phoenix). The Big Bang then creates instances of all of the other abstracts and Eternity then becomes self-aware and part of the greater Multi-Eternity. While it's true that Death is the opposite of Eternity, there is no such thing as Multi-Death - the destruction of the universe is governed solely by the Phoenix Force.
6. From there each universe develops fairly independently, only following the basic rules set out by TOAA and enforced by LT, which is why each universe is similar in so many ways.
So to sum up my theory of the relationship between the members of the hierarchy, it is LT, enforcing the TOAA's blueprint programmed into the universal eggs the Phoenix Force added to Multi-Eternity and brought to life by Eternity via a manifestation of the Phoenix, that ensures that level of consistency.
I've gone over this theory a few times since I wrote it to make sure it addresses most of the things we've discussed over the months, and it seems to fit everything in well. If there's something someone has mentioned in the past that threatens this theory, tell me about it and I'll either explain or revise accordingly.
anway, as far as the hierarchy:<<1. TOAA
2. Phoenix Force
3. LT
4. Multi-Eternity
5. Abstracts
6. Phoenix Manifestation
7. Eternity
8. Galactus
9. In-Betweener
10. Celestials>>this is pretty close to what i'd say, 'cept i'd swap 2 & 3 and not include the phoenix manifestation. i'd also consider inbetweener more an abstract since it embodies the concept of absolutes.
I think my explanation on the relationship between the abstracts and TOAA justifies why I have the order the way I do, and also justifies the need for a manifestation of the Phoenix. A Phoenix manifestation is necessary because as Reed said, it's synonymous with a Big Bang - it embodies a single universe, but it's also outside of the universe. The only explanation for both is what I mentioned above - the Phoenix Force and the Phoenix Manifestation. It also explains some glaring holes in how the Phoenix could be incredibly naive sometimes and all-knowing other times.
Originally posted by illadelph12
Hmm...I see what you're saying Leo, but the Phoenix Force predates life as well. It's the life force of the living [b]and the unborn
, retroactive to the dawn of creation.Essentially, when TOAA decided he was going to create life, he set in place a mass of his power which would fuel all of creation. This mass of energy is life, which is also Phoenix.
They are the same thing.
Life comes from TOAA.
Phoenix comes from Life.
Phoenix comes from the same place Life does, TOAA.
There are no degrees of separation.
Life energy and the Phoenix Force are one and the same.
Phoenix didn't exist until TOAA willed life to commence.
Phoenix is the lifeforce of anything that will ever live, unborn and living.
Nothing has lived that hasn't been infused with the Phoenix Force.
Your getting to caught up with the word "derivitive".
Life is derived from TOAA.
Phoenix is derived from Life, which is derived from TOAA.
Phoenix, then, is derived from TOAA.
All things Marvel are derived from TOAA.Phoenix is the manifestation of the prime force of life of anything that will ever live in Marvel.
As for the Holy Spirit comparison, I don't mean in a religious context, I mean in purpose. All things that live, according to the Bible, were created of and infused with the Holy Spirit. It's the lifeforce of all things created by God. I'm not an advocate of the other dillusions GS was spouting about sephorahs and kaballah, etc, I'm just making a general comparison of the roles of the 2 energy sources because they suit the same purpose.
Yo, by the way, the conversations on here, or at least the ones I've actually chosen to take an interest in, have been really good lately. [/B]
All things are derived from TOAA, not just PF. Eternity, Death, EVERYTHING. PF is no more TOAA than Eternity.