Originally posted by leonidas
i've always been a bit puzzled by why it is people think juggs is so strong. clearly he is very strong -- high cl100, but there are heroes at least as strong and some stronger. personally, i'd put him at abomination level or slightly higher. i don't believe he 'draws' strength from cyttorak. he HAS the strength, but it doesn't amplify like hulk's or drax's. it is a set strength. thor appeared to be at least as strong or stronger once he cut juggs off from his shield. hulk tossed him around a couple times though he didn't ko him. he's tough to beat because of his shield, not because of his strength. without his shield there are many heroes who would beat him. anyone care to name a few of his highest end feats?
Exactly...its only assumed he is that strong. However, there is clearly evidence against him being anywhere near the level of the upper 100 guys like gladiator who would not get stopped by a mountain or...wet concrete and spiderman 🙁
Originally posted by leonidas
hey snoop, couldn't find any respect juggs threads. you sure it's in there? my luck with searches isn't always great, but like i said, i couldn't find it.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=356857&perpage=20&pagenumber=1
heheh.
thanks snoop. apparently it was me: i can't spell "respeck"
😄
some decent feats. most as i thought were invincibility related, rather than strength. he certainly IS strong -- i said high cl100, but still, we've seen others do most of that. he's strong, but not as strong as a few others. his durability was never a question.
Originally posted by leonidasYea but Juggernaut never really needs to use his strength. He just plows through stuff rather than just lift it and move it.
heheh.thanks snoop. apparently it was me: i can't spell "respeck"
😄
some decent feats. most as i thought were invincibility related, rather than strength. he certainly IS strong -- i said high cl100, but still, we've seen others do most of that. he's strong, but not as strong as a few others. his durability was never a question.
Originally posted by leonidas
so, can hulk amp to match the gem's limit??!
After six months do you still think the same thing about Juggernauts strength?
No, Hulks power isn't Unlimited, It's just comic hyperbole. Rage is never unlimited, everyone has a limit to how made you can get.
Can I get a scan of where it said Hulk draws power from another dimension?
Hulk's strength is unlimited. Samson couldn't measure it. The Leader couldn't build a device to measure it. It was even stated by the frickin Beyonder.
His strength is not limited to his rage. It stems off from an adrenaline rush, emotions, and a desire to be the strongest. As a kid, Bruce wanted to be strong to protect his mother from his abusive father and that desire for strength apparently always remained with him (subconsciously, I suppose). When the Hulk needs to reach a certain level of strength, not only will his rage push him to that level, but also his desire to be the strongest one there is.
In short, no matter how high he needs to increase his strength, if allowed, he can and will physically stronger than his opponent.
Originally posted by Soujaboy
After six months do you still think the same thing about Juggernauts strength?No, Hulks power isn't Unlimited, It's just comic hyperbole. Rage is never unlimited, everyone has a limit to how made you can get.
Can I get a scan of where it said Hulk draws power from another dimension?
do i still feel the same way about juggy's strength? of course. no one has done anything to show me differently. throwing out his invulnerability, he was beaten handily by thor and was on the verge of being ko'd. thor>juggernaut sans invulnerability. in the exact same circumstance, hulk beat the crap out of thor. hulk in nearly full rage smashed onslaught. we saw what onslaught did to juggs. juggs surprised and choked out prof hulk. not much of a feat. you say juggs has shook the earth with punches. hulk has smashed an asteroid TWICE earth's size with a SINGLE punch.
feat wise hulk far exceeds him.
comparison against the same opponents (thor and onslaught) hulk has FAR better showings.
juggs is strong -- high cl100 -- but not as strong as thor and certainly less than hulk.
as for your scan -- i wish i could provide it. i read about it and saw it on the forum somewhere. i spent a while trying to find it, but . . . 🙁
as far as hulk amping infinitely -- there have been many cases showing that there is indeed no measureable limit to hulk's strength. accl did a nice job of defining WHY hulk's strength is literally 'different' from everyone else's. it is not bounded by physical laws. hulk can become as strong as he needs to be. as accl said, even the beyonder commented on his infinite well of power. i'll assume you've checked out hulk's respect thread so i don't need to say how many instances there are regarding his 'limitless' strength.
my original position still stands -- i see no reason to believe hulk's strength couldn't match any strength level attainable by a power gem wielder.
Hulk could match the Power Gem, but I doubt he could surpass it.
Also, a power gem wielder is imbued with the strength out the gate. Hulk has to amass a large sum of rage and will.
I'd personally rather have the gem. With the gem, I could put Hulk down before he became a threat since I'd always be at "infinite" strength.
Originally posted by leonidas
do i still feel the same way about juggy's strength? of course. no one has done anything to show me differently. throwing out his invulnerability, he was beaten handily by thor and was on the verge of being ko'd. thor>juggernaut sans invulnerability. in the exact same circumstance, hulk beat the crap out of thor. hulk in nearly full rage smashed onslaught. we saw what onslaught did to juggs. juggs surprised and choked out prof hulk. not much of a feat. you say juggs has shook the earth with punches. hulk has smashed an asteroid TWICE earth's size with a SINGLE punch.feat wise hulk far exceeds him.
comparison against the same opponents (thor and onslaught) hulk has FAR better showings.juggs is strong -- high cl100 -- but not as strong as thor and certainly less than hulk.
as for your scan -- i wish i could provide it. i read about it and saw it on the forum somewhere. i spent a while trying to find it, but . . . 🙁
as far as hulk amping infinitely -- there have been many cases showing that there is indeed no measureable limit to hulk's strength. accl did a nice job of defining WHY hulk's strength is literally 'different' from everyone else's. it is not bounded by physical laws. hulk can become as strong as he needs to be. as accl said, even the beyonder commented on his infinite well of power. i'll assume you've checked out hulk's respect thread so i don't need to say how many instances there are regarding his 'limitless' strength.
my original position still stands -- i see no reason to believe hulk's strength couldn't match any strength level attainable by a power gem wielder.
I want you to think about something. When Juggernaut became Trion Juggernaut he simply smashed his way through dimensions without much effort at all correct. While he was smashing through these dimensions he was brought back to his normal self. So how do you think he got back to his dimension? well I assume since it's the only way he could have got back that he smashed his way back on his own will. So how much strength does that take. Besides that point, Juggernauts strength like Hulks has been stated by Marvel to be "Unlimited". This is due to the fact that he draws his power from Cyttorak. Now it is stated by Marvel that when focused Juggernaut can increase his strength and other powers.
You keep saying that Thor would beat Juggernaut if Juggernaut didn't have his force field. I would like you to know that the comic your referring to is the only comic in Juggernauts 40 year history that has Juggernauts durability deriving from his shield. If you notice in other comics he rarely uses his force field, yet he is still completely impervious to harm. So I kind of discount that comic since it's the only comic that has Juggernauts durability deriving from his magic force field. Even then though the comic stated that Juggernaut was about to land the final blow on Thor, and this was before he received his durability back.
You also stated that Thor is stronger than Juggernaut. I highly disagree with that since on more than one occasion Juggernaut has overpowered, and nearly killed Thor with brute force.
His strength is not the problem. When the Hulk sets his mind on something, he'll become so enraged or excited that he literally won't stop until the job's done. Literally. His fury eliminates his need for food, water, sleep and quite possibly oxygen as well. So as long as you keep him occupied, he won't tire.
But that's exactly the problem. The Hulk has a relatively short attention span, and if the danger isn't great enough, he will get bored.
Originally posted by Soujaboy
I want you to think about something. When Juggernaut became Trion Juggernaut he simply smashed his way through dimensions without much effort at all correct. While he was smashing through these dimensions he was brought back to his normal self. So how do you think he got back to his dimension? well I assume since it's the only way he could have got back that he smashed his way back on his own will. So how much strength does that take.
Originally posted by Soujaboy
I want you to think about something. When Juggernaut became Trion Juggernaut he simply smashed his way through dimensions without much effort at all correct. While he was smashing through these dimensions he was brought back to his normal self. So how do you think he got back to his dimension? well I assume since it's the only way he could have got back that he smashed his way back on his own will. So how much strength does that take. Besides that point, Juggernauts strength like Hulks has been stated by Marvel to be "Unlimited". This is due to the fact that he draws his power from Cyttorak. Now it is stated by Marvel that when focused Juggernaut can increase his strength and other powers.You keep saying that Thor would beat Juggernaut if Juggernaut didn't have his force field. I would like you to know that the comic your referring to is the only comic in Juggernauts 40 year history that has Juggernauts durability deriving from his shield. If you notice in other comics he rarely uses his force field, yet he is still completely impervious to harm. So I kind of discount that comic since it's the only comic that has Juggernauts durability deriving from his magic force field. Even then though the comic stated that Juggernaut was about to land the final blow on Thor, and this was before he received his durability back.
You also stated that Thor is stronger than Juggernaut. I highly disagree with that since on more than one occasion Juggernaut has overpowered, and nearly killed Thor with brute force.
hulk has sent shockwaves through multiple dimensions and lit up an entire dimension with the force of blow. he's smashed time. and energy and broken the laws of physical reality. his strength is literally 'not real'.
oh, and i don't have to 'assume' anything, because these things are all on panel and canon. i'm also gonna guess there exists somewhere another viable explanation.
the funniest argument i hear against hulk's 'unltd' strength is that he can't possess unltd rage. 😂 why not? of all the 'impossible' comic book powers that exist, people try and use real world science to say hulk can't have unltd rage?? seriously. in a comicbook world DEFINED by impossible powers why not? because YOU can't, or I can't? i got news for you and anyone else who likes that argument -- comicbook characters can do 1 or 2 other things we can't.
as far as marvel saying he's unltd -- they say the extent of his strength is unknown. big difference. cyttorak himself is only skyfather, so it can't be 'unltd'. another point of proof comes from the time he shared the gem with cassidy. BOTH were juggernauts, but BOTH were much weaker than the original. if his strength and abilities were 'infinite' they could BOTH have been at juggernaut prime level. clearly, it is NOT unltd. one multiple ocasions hulk's strength has been sapped and drawn awy yet he STILL does crazy feats.
the shield thing with thor -- shield or not, doesn't matter. thor beat him down and would have ko'd him. when it came to a battle of pure strength, thor came out on top. in the other fights you mention, thor was unable to harm juggs. strength v strength free of outside powers, thor owned him.
about incresing his strength -- i can use the exact same argument for this supposed ability that you used for the shield power. you say its the first time the shield is used that way, i say that's the first time jugg's strength has been interpreted that way. we could throw BOTH out, but the point about thor's strenth v jugg's strength would still stand. jugg's power was never before or since been shown to increase with 'focus'. i said it before, i'll say it again -- despite marvel's apparent 'back-seat backing', i'm not buying it. when it appears in a handbook, or happens again, i'll take THAT as an 'OFFICIAL' backing.
Hulk smashing an asteroid twice the size of Earth sounds odd because hitting something that large from, essentially, a pinpoint would only create a hole, not cause the hole thing to split in half or explode. And there is a limit to Hulk's strength: 150 billion tons would have been nothing to him if he didn't.
I believe the Power Gem "powers up" whatever ability the wielder already has. It was said of supplement or back-up the other Infinity Gems. If the wielder has massive strength, it'll increase that. If they had telepahic abilities, it'd power that up. Used by an average person, it'd probably have minimal effects. Drax, being cosmic powered, and Champion, who has the power primordial, benefit quite a lot from it.
Originally posted by K Von Doom
Hulk smashing an asteroid twice the size of Earth sounds odd because hitting something that large from, essentially, a pinpoint would only create a hole, not cause the hole thing to split in half or explode. And there is a limit to Hulk's strength: 150 billion tons would have been nothing to him if he didn't.I believe the Power Gem "powers up" whatever ability the wielder already has. It was said of supplement or back-up the other Infinity Gems. If the wielder has massive strength, it'll increase that. If they had telepahic abilities, it'd power that up. Used by an average person, it'd probably have minimal effects. Drax, being cosmic powered, and Champion, who has the power primordial, benefit quite a lot from it.
can't use real world science to explain comicbook 'stuff'. you should know better, kvd . . . 🙁
don't forget, it was not savage hulk who initially held the mountains. tony (or was it reed?) got him mad and tried forcing the switch because his strength was increasing and savage hulk did not show that the mountain was too much. tony and the others then blasted out so there was no longer a need for him to hold it. don't forget too -- it isn't 'infinite' out of the gate. it would also obviously never reach 'infinity'. there have been many indications that will continually approach infinity, however.
ps -- the gem couldn't even lift drax's strength to a level where he could defeat prof hulk.