Hulk strength v power gem strength

Originally posted by leonidas
can't use real world science to explain comicbook 'stuff'. you should know better, kvd . . . 🙁

don't forget, it was not savage hulk who initially held the mountains. tony (or was it reed?) got him mad and tried forcing the switch because his strength was increasing and savage hulk did not show that the mountain was too much. tony and the others then blasted out so there was no longer a need for him to hold it. don't forget too -- it isn't 'infinite' out of the gate. it would also obviously never reach 'infinity'. there have been many indications that will continually approach infinity, however.

ps -- the gem couldn't even lift drax's strength to a level where he could defeat prof hulk.

Yeah I know... it was just odd is all. 😕

But when that mountainrange fell on them, the Hulk was already doing fine 'lifting' it without Reed annoying him. But was Reed really making Hulk mad? Because later on Hulk said he knew what Reed was doing by saying all that.

I've only seen one Drax vs Hulk fight and Drax thought they were playing, it was in Infinity Watch I think.

Originally posted by K Von Doom
Yeah I know... it was just odd is all. 😕

But when that mountainrange fell on them, the Hulk was already doing fine 'lifting' it without Reed annoying him. But was Reed really making Hulk mad? Because later on Hulk said he knew what Reed was doing by saying all that.

I've only seen one Drax vs Hulk fight and Drax thought they were playing, it was in Infinity Watch I think.

actually, hulk was struggling to hold it initially. that's why they tried to piss him off. the madder he gets . . . banner never actually DID lose it. he was angrier, but he did not revert to savage hulk. that's why you remember that bit about what banner said because it WAS banner who was in (and stayed in) control.

anyway, it's funny when people bring that feat up. i wonder if MOST people know that BANNER was in charge for that feat . . . 😖hifty:

oh, and hulk and drax mixed it up a couple times, and there was never anything to show one way or the other that one was stronger. it also appeared that wm thor was certainly stronger than drax even BEFORE thor got the gem. 🙂

If you go by PRE RETCON Powergem, then Power Gem takes this no questions asked.

Realistically...Hulk was powered by atomic bombs.....Power Gem is a universal source of infinite energy....

Power Gem all the way baby !

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
If you go by PRE RETCON Powergem, then Power Gem takes this no questions asked.

Realistically...Hulk was powered by atomic bombs.....Power Gem is a universal source of infinite energy....

Power Gem all the way baby !

the correlation really doesn't equate, lu. hulk was actually brought into existence via the gamma bomb, but that doesn't mean he can only reach 'gamma bomb' levels. the gamma bomb was a gateway that allowed hulk to emerge, it has no bearing on the level of power he possesses.

preretcon gem gave champ enough power to bust a planet. hulk's done that and much more. AND he doesn't have the power primordial to give him a head start. 😉

NO powergem wielder has accomplished anything that hulk hasn't topped. pre or post retcon. (and you can't use the gem as part of the ig, because as we know the ig collective of gems was greater than the sum of its individual gem parts.)

Originally posted by K Von Doom
Yeah I know... it was just odd is all. 😕

But when that mountainrange fell on them, the Hulk was already doing fine 'lifting' it without Reed annoying him. But was Reed really making Hulk mad? Because later on Hulk said he knew what Reed was doing by saying all that.

I've only seen one Drax vs Hulk fight and Drax thought they were playing, it was in Infinity Watch I think.

This is a good debate actually.

BTW leo that fight with Thor/Juggy in which Thor took away Juggies shield was a kind of fishy story. Juggernaut does not even have his shield up 99% of the time. Actuually Juggernaut has to summon it. That's why his helmet got knocked off all of the time back in the day.

I think that story was written by somebody who didn't do their homework on Juggy.

I saw in one of your post that you said Cyttorak was only at Skyfather lv. I have to disagree with that due to the fact that Cyttorak was able to imprison a non starving Galactus within his realm in Sorcerers Supreme # 49. In another comics Eternity tried to get rid of Cyttorak and failed, so I think thats a little more than Skyfather lv.

You brought up the argument that you take the moment with Juggernauts durability deriving from his shield as cannon. Can you tell me a time when Juggernauts has had his force field activated all the time? according to Marvel you can tell Juggernauts shield is up when a red glow forms around his body. In that fight I didn't see any red glow, but that could be me. In there third fight Juggernaut didn't have his shield up yet he was still completely impervious to harm. It was just kind of weird how that comic threw Juggernauts power completely out of context. If you check the newest Juggernaut bio at Marvel, you'll see that Juggernaut has to call upon his shield with his mind for it to activate around him.

You also stated something to the affect that Juggernauts strength isn't unlimited because Cyttorak is only skyfather lv. Well I already covered the "only Skyfather point" no lets get to the unlimited strength. Hulk a mortal, supposedly has the potential of unlimited strength so why cant a uber lv god give his avatar the potential of unlimited strength? The 8th day saga we got to see Juggernaut in a new light. This was the first time we really ever saw Juggernaut focused and caring enough to do something good. We really have never seen a truly focused Juggernaut besides in the 8th day saga. He always just doesn't care, and only does what he feels like doing. Thus Marvel said that Juggernaut can increase his powers by focusing on the magic energies that run through his body.

it's possible cyttorak is above. i'd put him on dormammu's level. dormmy has been shown by marvel to be considered about skyfather level though he has feats well above as well. odin sometimes is not viewed to be as powerful as he has been protrayed. don't forget, his power was said once to have shaken the multiverse.

as far as juggs strength being infinite -- cyttorak himself does not possess infinite power, so how could he grant it? saying that is like saying that juggs could actually become more powerful than cyttorak!

i'm not gonna argue the shield point anymore, not because i concede it, but because it was not relevent. the relevent point in that battle was that it came down to strength v strength and thor won. a similar situation happened with onslaught. i also explained why i don't think your focussed argument works for me. perhaps it will be shown again, or perhaps it will be mentioned in an up-coming bio (if he regains his power). but, til then . . . 😬

ps-didn't jugg's shield in another battle with thor? and doesn't he use it only if his own durability is not enough? maybe mjollnir was great enough to harm him so for one of the only times against someone he NEEDED to use his shield for extra protection? just a thought . . .

Did he use his shield against Thor in there second or third fight? no yet he still overpowered Thor both times. Shit he nearly killed Thor the third time they fought with a hug, and note this is without his shield. Thus from that scene it appeared that Juggernaut was far stronger than Thor because he simply tossed him around like a rug. This is why so many people disregard there second fight, it went against every thing we know about Juggernaut.

When Juggernaut took the god blast all it did was push him back while he was standing still, and when he was still able to regain himself and walk forward. Note he took the god blast without so much as a scratch.

You stated that Juggernaut's strength couldn't be unlimited because Cyttorak's power isn't unlimited. Well Marvel themselves stated that Juggernaut can call upon the limitless power of Cyttorak, and well whenever he's really needed to do something he's done it. So how can you go against what Marvel clearly stated about his power? Marvel stated that Hulk, a mortal mans strength is unlimited and you seem to agree so whats wrong with Juggernaut a man empowered by a god who is said to have unlimited power strength being unlimited?

I have always understood that Juggernauts's power was force not strength, that he was an unstopable force.

Originally posted by Soujaboy
Did he use his shield against Thor in there second or third fight? no yet he still overpowered Thor both times. Shit he nearly killed Thor the third time they fought with a hug, and note this is without his shield. Thus from that scene it appeared that Juggernaut was far stronger than Thor because he simply tossed him around like a rug. This is why so many people disregard there second fight, it went against every thing we know about Juggernaut.

When Juggernaut took the god blast all it did was push him back while he was standing still, and when he was still able to regain himself and walk forward. Note he took the god blast without so much as a scratch.

You stated that Juggernaut's strength couldn't be unlimited because Cyttorak's power isn't unlimited. Well Marvel themselves stated that Juggernaut can call upon the limitless power of Cyttorak, and well whenever he's really needed to do something he's done it. So how can you go against what Marvel clearly stated about his power? Marvel stated that Hulk, a mortal mans strength is unlimited and you seem to agree so whats wrong with Juggernaut a man empowered by a god who is said to have unlimited power strength being unlimited?

it's the source of the power that dictates whether or not it is truly infinite imo. cyttorak doesn't have unltd power, or perhaps rather he has a measure of if. differing scales of infinity can and do exist after all. but certainly cyttorak would fall to thanos with the ig. therefore his power is not truly infinite. the source of hulk's power otoh CAN be infinite. there is no reason to say otherwise. he imagines himself strong enough and he IS strong enough. of course there are cases where this hasn't been shown, but many cases where it has been demonstrated. no character will always be depicted the same or to full abilities. but there really is no reason why the source of hulk's power needs to be finite. which is why i think it could match the power gem -- another supposedly infinite power source. again, even cutting hulk's strength in half or draining him he STILL retains immense power. jugg's cut in half was a cl100 being cut in half.

and you're right -- i and most fans i know DO throw out 8th day as an amped version. i've explained why already. when that level is reached again, or it is stated in a bio that focus increases his strength, then i'll say he wasn't amped. as far as the fights between jugs and thor -- it was always his invulnerability that was the difference. without it, thor showed he was stronger. and it is strength -- no other powers -- that are relevent here.

Originally posted by leonidas
it's the source of the power that dictates whether or not it is truly infinite imo. cyttorak doesn't have unltd power, or perhaps rather he has a measure of if. differing scales of infinity can and do exist after all. but certainly cyttorak would fall to thanos with the ig. therefore his power is not truly infinite. the source of hulk's power otoh CAN be infinite. there is no reason to say otherwise. he imagines himself strong enough and he IS strong enough. of course there are cases where this hasn't been shown, but many cases where it has been demonstrated. no character will always be depicted the same or to full abilities. but there really is no reason why the source of hulk's power needs to be finite. which is why i think it could match the power gem -- another supposedly infinite power source. again, even cutting hulk's strength in half or draining him he STILL retains immense power. jugg's cut in half was a cl100 being cut in half.

and you're right -- i and most fans i know DO throw out 8th day as an amped version. i've explained why already. when that level is reached again, or it is stated in a bio that focus increases his strength, then i'll say he wasn't amped. as far as the fights between jugs and thor -- it was always his invulnerability that was the difference. without it, thor showed he was stronger. and it is strength -- no other powers -- that are relevent here.

So your basing your opinion of Juggernauts power on his second fight with Thor, when in his first and second fight he clearly overpowered Thor in his first and third fight? the second fight was already discredited due to the fact that Juggernauts powers were totally written out of context, according to forum rules those moments in comics are called PIS. Even in there second fight Thor never displayed that he was able to totally overpower Juggernaut like Juggernaut did him, he just displayed to us that he's the far superior fighter. Thats the point though, Juggernaut doesn't need to know how to fight because no one can hurt him.

Your claim that Cyttoraks power isn't unlimited doesn't really make any sense. You claim that Hulk a mortal with now magic abilities whatsoever, imagines becoming stronger and he is, yet a uber god like character on par with Galactus and Eternity(according to feats thus far) cant grant his avatar unlimited powers? Of course since he is the source of the power he can take it away, and thats why Cain could never be greater than him. Besides that Marvel clearly stated that Juggernaut can call on the unlimited power of Cyttorak.

BTW it was already stated by Marvel editors, that Juggernauts powers are unlimited. After the 8th day saga that was a big deal, and they stated that through focus Juggernaut can increase his strength.

Juggernauts power were not cut in half when he lost his connection with Cyttorak, he was stripped of his magical abilities. Thus he no longer can become more powerful, and he's no longer completely impervious to harm. Still though without his magic properties he was able to beat down Alpha Flight while they were wearing HULK BUSTER ARMOR.

Originally posted by Soujaboy
So your basing your opinion of Juggernauts power on his second fight with Thor, when in his first and second fight he clearly overpowered Thor in his first and third fight? the second fight was already discredited due to the fact that Juggernauts powers were totally written out of context, according to forum rules those moments in comics are called PIS. Even in there second fight Thor never displayed that he was able to totally overpower Juggernaut like Juggernaut did him, he just displayed to us that he's the far superior fighter. Thats the point though, Juggernaut doesn't need to know how to fight because no one can hurt him.

Your claim that Cyttoraks power isn't unlimited doesn't really make any sense. You claim that Hulk a mortal with now magic abilities whatsoever, imagines becoming stronger and he is, yet a uber god like character on par with Galactus and Eternity(according to feats thus far) cant grant his avatar unlimited powers? Of course since he is the source of the power he can take it away, and thats why Cain could never be greater than him. Besides that Marvel clearly stated that Juggernaut can call on the unlimited power of Cyttorak.

BTW it was already stated by Marvel editors, that Juggernauts powers are unlimited. After the 8th day saga that was a big deal, and they stated that through focus Juggernaut can increase his strength.

Juggernauts power were not cut in half when he lost his connection with Cyttorak, he was stripped of his magical abilities. Thus he no longer can become more powerful, and he's no longer completely impervious to harm. Still though without his magic properties he was able to beat down Alpha Flight while they were wearing HULK BUSTER ARMOR.

i'm basing it on his consistent showings. his feats are dwarfed by thor and hulk. and there is no reason at all that hulk's source of power couldn't potentially be greater than cyttorak's, who again, very obviously does NOT have 'infinite' power. if he did, his name would be toaa rather than cyttorak. besides, it has been speculated in comics that humans will evolve into uber cosmic entities.

jugg's power was massively decreased when he shared the gem's power with cassidy. both were juggernauts, but only half-strength juggernauts. infinity/2 is not half, it's still infinity. 😉

either way, you seem quite beyond convincing, despite my best efforts. that's fine. you're certainly entitled to your opinion. we'll agree to disagree. 🙂

Originally posted by snoopdogg
I remember Hulk saying that he cannot hold it for very long.

This is a good debate actually.

BTW leo that fight with Thor/Juggy in which Thor took away Juggies shield was a kind of fishy story. Juggernaut does not even have his shield up 99% of the time. Actuually Juggernaut has to summon it. That's why his helmet got knocked off all of the time back in the day.

I think that story was written by somebody who didn't do their homework on Juggy.

Actually Juggernaut always has his Cyttorak protection. Cain Marko is hardly doctor strange and has never been shown to have any concious control of anything mystical. Therefore it's only logical that he taps into it subconciously.

The poor writing occurs when the helmet gets knocked off. When Thor prevented the Cyttorak shield from protecting Juggernaut, Thor didnt just knock off the helmet, he shattered it with one bare handed punch. The continued to knock Cain Marko around like the ignorant bum he is. If it hadn't been for the 60 second rule, it would be a KO in 60 seconds.

If Thor really wanted to kill him the first punch would have taken him out but as Juggs is a mortal, Thor held back.

To give an indication of how much Thor holds back, even when he lost his mind, Thor didnt actually kill anyone although he had the opportunity to kill everyone he fought save Thanos. The only time he came close to killing anyone during that series was when he was in the midst of battle and truly pissed. BRB and SS were particularly lucky to escape the killing blow as each was whisked away just before the hammer dropped on their battered bodies.

But enough about Thor. Regarding power gem vs Hulk, the best indication is to compare power gem vs thanos and hulk vs thanos. So clearly, the answer is the power gem wins. However under certain circumstance the Hulk should be able to get close.

Power Gem

uh didnt war stop juggernaut provin juggs has a limit thank you 🙄

Originally posted by hulk=strength
uh didnt war stop juggernaut provin juggs has a limit thank you 🙄

Nope.

Also by chance do you know a fellow by the name of bigboygreen ?

uh yes he did 💃 💃
an no i dont but i know where your gettin at an your gay

Originally posted by hulk=strength
uh yes he did 💃 💃
an no i dont but i know where your gettin at an your gay

.....and your quite obviously a noob. AND a Hulk fanboy. Feel good about this. Wallow in your own self ignorance.

Note Juggernauts spell 'The most powerful being ON EARTH' . War Hulk was tooled up with Celestial tech.

Not only that but H-R Hulk has the power of two universe running through him , amping him up to unspecified levels.

Finally all Hulk did was fling him , no big deal . Thor's pushed back Juggernaut before.

i think he was addressing the previously mentioned 'unltd' power. the showing of celestial tech>juggs means cyttorak's power is clearly not infinite, nor is juggs strength.

Originally posted by leonidas
i think he was addressing the previously mentioned 'unltd' power. the showing of celestial tech>juggs means cyttorak's power is clearly not infinite, nor is juggs strength.

Agreed ... see you Leo, make the Forum a better place !!!!!!!! 🙂

Im going for a while !!!!