Powerful argument, but I still think the odds will remain in vaders favor. Its like I stated the original trilogy was made in the late 70's and through the 80's, back then the saber duels and force powers were adequate entertainment, but now I think lucas is being more creative and we never got to see many force abilities or high-speed duels .
vader is supposedly 80% of palpatine in the original trilogy, without having that king of comparison for dooku or maul its hard to say. palpatine took 4 jedi masters at once and maul was having difficulty with a master and a padawan, dooku easily took out a knight and a padawan.
it is difficult to say because we havent really seen any really impressive displays of power by a suited vader. he proved to be adept with the force by throwing objects at luke in esb, but so did dooku in aotc, although dookus was far more impressive.
i will still go with dooku, his experience and skill make him one of the most powerful force users in the galaxy, jedi or sith. vader cant use force lightning, or deflect it without is saber and i dont think hes powerful enough to make up for this when dooku is at the very least, almost a match for him.
Originally posted by darthsith19He lost potential. Get it through your head. I can't picture Anakin being able to pick up somebody with one hand when you say power.
Like hell it didn't. He lost 1/2 his power. Lucas has said this. And poor you have been thinking for all these years that ROTJ Luke is stronger than ROTS Vader 😛
It is sane logic to state that Vader would have been weaker after he was defeated at Mustafar but to say that after twenty years of and finishing his training under Sidious and perfecting his lightsaber technique he would still be defeated by himself as jedi knight? That's plain illogical.
Just accept that Maul couldn't take his place in the OT.
Originally posted by overlord
He lost potential. Get it through your head. I can't picture Anakin being able to pick up somebody with one hand when you say power.
I don't mean to sound like some retard Vader fanboy but it is annoying that people think any PT guy can take him. It ruines the OT thought and I strongly dissagree that Lucas ever meant it this way.It is sane logic to state that Vader would have been weaker after he was defeated at Mustafar but to say that after twenty years of and finishing his training under Sidious and perfecting his lightsaber technique he would still be defeated by himself as jedi knight? That's plain illogical.
Just accept that Maul couldn't take his place in the OT.
thanku!! someone finally....with logic 😛
Originally posted by Decay
vader is supposedly 80% of palpatine in the original trilogy, without having that king of comparison for dooku or maul its hard to say. palpatine took 4 jedi masters at once and maul was having difficulty with a master and a padawan, dooku easily took out a knight and a padawan.
80% of ROTS Sidious would put Vader below Dooku, but remember that this is Palpatine with an extra 20 years to sort through all of the knowledge the Jedi had and the knowledge he already had. Sidious could be twice as powerful by this time. Point is we don't know, but it definately should be more than 80% of ROTS Sidious.
Originally posted by Decay
i will still go with dooku, his experience and skill make him one of the most powerful force users in the galaxy, jedi or sith. vader cant use force lightning, or deflect it without is saber and i dont think hes powerful enough to make up for this when dooku is at the very least, almost a match for him.
When is Vader not going to have his saber? And what makes you think he can't block lightning with his hands? He was able to use the force very well through his arm stub in CW.
Suited Vader is alot more powerful than many people believe, heres proof in the ROTS novelization:
His promising new apprentice, who was to be the greatest Sith who'd ever lived - maimed and burned, perhaps dead. Darth Sidious ground his teeth in frustrated anger. Part of him wanted to turn on his heel and leave what was left of Darth Vader to burn to ashes in the rising lava. Even if he was alive, even if he could be saved, Vader would be crippled.
And not just with his mechanical limbs. The force - dark side as well as light - was generated by living beings, and it took living flesh to manipulate it. Darth Vader would never be able to cast blue force lightning; that required living hands, not metal ones. And with so much of his body replaced by machinery, he would never come close to the potential he'd had.
It was a great pitty, Darth Sidious thought, controlling his anger, but perhaps not irreparable. Even dimininished, Darth Vader would still be very strong
So you see as Darth243 said, the OT was made about 30 years ago, and they did not have the technology that they have now, so technically the OT force users such as Vader and Luke are very strong, Palpatine and Vader themselves complimented Luke and said that he was very powerful, and they both knew and faught against some of the strongest PT jedi. If they remade the OT with the new digital effects and such, the OT battles would be just as good as the PT ones, probably even better since they would have even newer technology on their hands if they were to remake the movies in 2006 or later. Luke was able to resist the dark side much better than anakin even with less training, and he was exceptionally powerful when he yelled NEVER! and went ballistic on vader, luke was incredibly strong in spite of the lack of much formal training.
That may be but the fact remains about my other points, i strongly believe that Vader and Luke are underrated in Episode 6, they are both very strong at that point, Luke even more so especially in his Ballistic mode, and vader was able to carry palpy all the way to the core and and throw him in, while Sids was zapping vader with a high dosage of force lightning, an ordinary jedi or sith would not be able to just keep walking like nothing happened. I believe he might have used a tech similar to Dark Rage to increase his endurance and power temporarily. Many of you do admit that palpy is possibly even stronger than he was in ROTS so this is an incredible feat to say the least
Originally posted by darthsith19
No. But there's NO way Vader when he first gopt the suit could beat Maul anyways cause he'd be 1/2 the strength he was in ROTS before the suit. That means below AOTC Anakin.
It's half the potential, darthsith. Anakin, as of ROTS, wasn't even close to reaching his potential. Stop being thick.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
DS, how would he have been thinking "for all these years" that Luke is better than ROTS Vader if it hasn't been out that long. (BTW, ROTJ Luke would probably take Anakin).Glentract, don't even go there. No farmboy is going to take out a Jedi Knight with a dozen times the experience, more potential, and three years as frontline combatant.
Dooku is maybe a little bit better than Vader, then Maul a pretty far way down.
Dooku is superior to Vader, but Maul isn't that far behind. He's vastly overestimated by some, and ridiculously downgraded by others. . .
Originally posted by ssj3gohan007
Vader was the best Apprentice, Sidious himself said "soon i will have a new apprentice who is far younger and more powerful!" Sidious chose vader instead of dooku, sidious is the smartest star wars character, surely he knew what he was doing
He said that before Mustafar.
Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Dooku is superior to Vader, but Maul isn't that far behind. He's vastly overestimated by some, and ridiculously downgraded by others. . .
Can you prove that Dooku is better? GL specifically said Vader 80% of Sidious, which is ROTJ Sidious, who is better than ROTS Sidious. That puts Vader somewhere above 80% of Dooku.
If pre-suit Vader's powers were far superior to his earlier, Good-guy counter-part (ROTS Anakin), and Anakin could easily HOLD HIS OWN (not defeat, i.e. Dooku's supposed dive) against Dooku, then doesn't that make pre-suit Vader better than Dooku.
But Suit Vader's vastly inferior to Dooku, Maul too.
And Maul would definetely lose to both Dooku and P-S Vader.
Meh.. Maul would even lose to Kit Fisto probably.
In the way I percieve SW, I think it's logical to assume that Vader and Dooku are both masters over their way of duelling and fair equals. The thing that bothers is just that Anakin while still not a full fledged master at duelling could surprise Dooku like he did..
Originally posted by Tangible God
If pre-suit Vader's powers were far superior to his earlier, Good-guy counter-part (ROTS Anakin), and Anakin could easily HOLD HIS OWN (not defeat, i.e. Dooku's supposed dive) against Dooku, then doesn't that make pre-suit Vader better than Dooku.But Suit Vader's vastly inferior to Dooku, Maul too.
And Maul would definetely lose to both Dooku and P-S Vader.
I agree with the first half of what your saying but like darth glentract said, rotj vader is 80% of Rotj palpy, meaning that rotj vader is perhaps 90% or higher than rots palpy, so dooku and maul is not necessarily superior. Vader is not as slow as you think, its just looks that way because technology wasnt nearly was as good back in the 70's ok. Vader fights fast enough, you need to look beyond the limits of technology in the OT.
look at grievous he is a robot too and yet he could move his lightsabers pretty damn fast. according to rots. robot or not vader is not a complete weakling. ok? thank you
I've said many times before, and that is the sad thing between the O and PT.
The technology to give Vader uber saber-moves, in contrast to the timeline anyway, was not available when the OT was made.
In my opinion, Suit-Vader SHOULD totally kick ass, even comapred to ROTS Vader.
But alas, since the tech. was not available, and the prequel storyline had not been realised...
And anyway, since the movies are the ultimate canon, and we have to go by what we see, then Suit-Vader just plain sucked.