ICEMAN vs. DOOMSDAY

Originally posted by Demas
I think you're just a little too defensive and/or protective of Supes, but whatever. Iceman's omega-class abilities would seem to have enough power to kill Doomsday at least once, the only thing to the contrary is "plot-device" invulnerability. Meanwhile Doomsday has been contained by some very mundane things, which if there was a mutant capable of them, I'm sure could contain him just as well.

As for the end result, I've already said, Doomsday wins, but if you can't bear for him to be even scratched, I guess that's your issue.

But how much of that was plot driven compared to these forum duels which are divorced from plot-contrivances? The plot called for Superman to die, thus no one was capable of stopping Doomsday (and/or those capable found themselves absent) and the fight ended in a fist-fight.

If the exact same battle happened on these forums, Superman would have used his peak super-speed to fetch a boom tube generator (he knows where Barda's is, for example) and used it to take Doomsday off planet. From there they'd have a lot more time to deal with him and could probably end up containing/exiling him without loss of life.

Alternatively some high-end magical hero- all absent from the Death of Superman- defies Kryptonian science and spirits Doomsday away.

Originally posted by Demas
But how much of that was plot driven compared to these forum duels which are divorced from plot-contrivances? The plot called for Superman to die, thus no one was capable of stopping Doomsday (and/or those capable found themselves absent) and the fight ended in a fist-fight.

If the exact same battle happened on these forums, Superman would have used his peak super-speed to fetch a boom tube generator (he knows where Barda's is, for example) and used it to take Doomsday off planet. From there they'd have a lot more time to deal with him and could probably end up containing/exiling him without loss of life.

Alternatively some high-end magical hero- all absent from the Death of Superman- defies Kryptonian science and spirits Doomsday away.

Originally posted by Juntai
That's what I'm saying, he's only been defeated by plot devices and by Superman during Death of Superman and by Imperiex himself. You'll find that at no point in time against actual Doomsday, did anyone's powers work pre or post Death of Superman. With no plot device or supreme being like Imperiex, is Doomsday even really confrontable.

Or in other words, Doomsday is inherently PIS?

Originally posted by Melnorme
Or in other words, Doomsday is inherently PIS?

I'd argue the reverse, you've never seen him tested BECAUSE of plot. You can't prove Doomsday immunity against magic, for example, because the plot took it out of the equation. Shackles, a boom tube, and a teleporter are not plot-devices, they're practical objects which powers can mimic and which have historically affected Doomsday. Heck blunt trauma has affected Doomsday. ONLY plot prevents us from knowing what other things remain untested against him. You can't say that because plot has dictated him invulnerable against some things that he's universally invulnerable against the things we've never seen.

Originally posted by Juntai
How so? He's DC comics' machine of destruction. Nigh undefeatable .. . except through plot device.

If the only way to defeat something is through a plot device, then isn't something wrong with the equation?

Originally posted by Demas
I'd argue the reverse, you've never seen him tested BECAUSE of plot. You can't prove Doomsday immunity against magic, for example, because the plot took it out of the equation. Shackles, a boom tube, and a teleporter are not plot-devices, they're practical objects which powers can mimic and which have historically affected Doomsday. Heck blunt trauma has affected Doomsday. ONLY plot prevents us from knowing what other things remain untested against him. You can't say that because plot has dictated him invulnerable against some things that he's universally invulnerable against the things we've never seen.

And those objects ARE plot devices, they would have to be put into the thread by the creator of the thread or the fight take place in a place where they are handy to have any effect on a forum battle.

And teleporting someone away isn't really a win, it's last ditch "I can't win this fight" tactics.

Originally posted by Melnorme
If the only way to defeat something is through a plot device, then isn't something wrong with the equation?

Not really. it's called an ultimate threat. And as much as we here on the comic book vs. hate plot devices and such when there's a huge battle that just can't be won, i usually love getting issues like that. Why? Think about it. You know your favorite hero can't win the day with normal means. You know the bad guy should logically destroy your fav. hero. But you know the company can't have him lose, so you know there's gonna be a plot device. And you just HAVE to know what the plot device is.

I also personally enjoy plot device villains basically because i make up my own little strategies of defeating them via plot device (geeky, yes 😮 ) and then i wanna check if there was anything like that.

edit: PS: Good plot device endings are one thing. Terribly short, disappointing ones are a whole different ballgame

Originally posted by Dark Urizen
Not really. it's called an ultimate threat. And as much as we here on the comic book vs. hate plot devices and such when there's a huge battle that just can't be won, i usually love getting issues like that. Why? Think about it. You know your favorite hero can't win the day with normal means. You know the bad guy should logically destroy your fav. hero. But you know the company can't have him lose, so you know there's gonna be a plot device. And you just HAVE to know what the plot device is.

I also personally enjoy plot device villains basically because i make up my own little strategies of defeating them via plot device (geeky, yes 😮 ) and then i wanna check if there was anything like that.

edit: PS: Good plot device endings are one thing. Terribly short, disappointing ones are a whole different ballgame

Well, yeah. I agree they make for interesting stories. That's great, and I'm all for that.

But for our purposes here, does that sort of thinking work? If you can't measure something's functionality, except in terms of authorial fiat, how much of a place does it have in a debate?

That's why I'm not terribly fond of using Doomsday in debates like this. It's kind of impossible to guage what can beat him, because the answer is usually nothing.

Doom surely has a device that can stop Iceman.

Originally posted by GODSCRIBE
Doom surely has a device that can stop Iceman.

Originally posted by GODSCRIBE
Doom surely has a device that can stop Iceman.

He does have a healing factor. Iceman would be in trouble. 😉

What does Doom or his plot devices have to do with anything?
lol.

This is DOOMSDAY.

Originally posted by Juntai
What does Doom or his plot devices have to do with anything?
lol.

This is DOOMSDAY.

Hehe...I was assuming he was just shortening Doomsday. Funny.

Originally posted by Juntai
And teleporting someone away isn't really a win, it's last ditch "I can't win this fight" tactics.

Possibly, I think it's evidence of an vulnerability. If he can be disassembled by one teleporter and reassembled by another... who's to say he needs to be reassembled to threaten them again another day? Only the plot, preserving the character to be used at a later date.

I didn't want to bring it up, but high-end Iceman is capable of teleporting people. Acting at his peak, Iceman has teleported groups of people. Given we've seen Doomsday is 'portable, it's conceivable that Iceman could use that ability to affect Doomsday.

The main cavet being that the Iceman who performed it was AOA Iceman, but it shows that it is with in his abilities.

You can't use Doomsday evolution as proof of absolute invulnerability considering the ways he's been killed in the past. For example, no doubt from his conception, he had been killed by blunt trauma. So while he evolved strong enough to resist greater trauma, that by no means gave him absolute immunity to all blunt trauma in the future... otherwise Superman would not have been able to put him down. That means a future and even greater amount of blunt trauma is likely to be able to put Doomsday down as well, if only temporarily.

Similarly, going up against the JLA's second-stringer Ice may show some level of cold resistence... but it does not demonstrate an omega-class level cold immunity that would render him invincible to "greater" cold.

Unless demonstratably invulnerable to Bobby- which doesn't exist, I've read all of Doomsday's appearances- we can't say definitively that Iceman wouldn't be able to get in a kill.

Originally posted by Demas
Possibly, I think it's evidence of an vulnerability. If he can be disassembled by one teleporter and reassembled by another... who's to say he needs to be reassembled to threaten them again another day? Only the plot, preserving the character to be used at a later date.

I didn't want to bring it up, but high-end Iceman is capable of teleporting people. Acting at his peak, Iceman has teleported groups of people. Given we've seen Doomsday is 'portable, it's conceivable that Iceman could use that ability to affect Doomsday.

The main cavet being that the Iceman who performed it was AOA Iceman, but it shows that it is with in his abilities.

You can't use Doomsday evolution as proof of absolute invulnerability considering the ways he's been killed in the past. For example, no doubt from his conception, he had been killed by blunt trauma. So while he evolved strong enough to resist greater trauma, that by no means gave him absolute immunity to all blunt trauma in the future... otherwise Superman would not have been able to put him down. That means a future and even greater amount of blunt trauma is likely to be able to put Doomsday down as well, if only temporarily.

Similarly, going up against the JLA's second-stringer Ice may show some level of cold resistence... but it does not demonstrate an omega-class level cold immunity that would render him invincible to "greater" cold.

Unless demonstratably invulnerable to Bobby- which doesn't exist, I've read all of Doomsday's appearances- we can't say definitively that Iceman wouldn't be able to get in a kill.

And although we know Superman did beat him physically a decade ago, nothing has stopped him since, save the teleporter plot device and Imperiex.

And current Iceman to my knowledge doesn't have the power to teleport, AOA was an ALTERNATE POSSIBLE future. So he doesn't have the teleporter since it wasn't stated in the thread, and he doesn't have the output of power of Imperiex by a longshot.

LOL I'm at work, perusing these threads and just caught 'Doom' and assumed it was Dr. Doom. And by brain couldn't fathom the thought of pairing Doomsday against Iceman, because it is an utter mismatch.

Freudian slip

sorry.

Originally posted by Juntai
[B]I'll give that evidence is inconclusive against his powerset, but . . then again . . show me someone using an innate power and putting Doomsday down with it, or even effecting him. Post DOS. [But as mentioned Ice using attacks on him would make him immune.. immune is immune, period. And they didn't have any effect then, leading one to believe he was ALREADY immune to ice attacks.]

Uh, you might try READING the post that you're replying to. Blunt Trauma proves that Doomsday's evolution is progressive, unless you're claiming he has NEVER been hit before Superman came along (which is utterly ridiculous). It shows that Doomsday doesn't necessarily develop all encompassing immunities but graded defenses/resistances. This is SEEN as evidenced by DOS.

Every form of invulnerability you speak of is SPECULATIVE based on UNSEEN power tests, using only plot-induced tests to justify all-encompassing immunity. For you part this is entirely an ASSUMPTION.[/quote]

And current Iceman to my knowledge doesn't have the power to teleport

He's teleported himself. As for others, as was said, the potential exists with in him. If you're going to speak purely of speculative potentials rather than proven and seen tests, then the same standard applied to Iceman allows him teleportation.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
How the hell is Doomsday ever beaten then?

I say Stalemate.

usually he's not.. he is just held in place for a while by plot devices...