Character Ownage

Originally posted by Bentley
I was under this weird impression that Carbonadium and secondary adamantium, not to mention cap's shield had tanked Wolverine claws. So let's just not agree in the underlaying logic of your argument.

Also, there is strength to surpass Superman's durability, it's not a simple task of being very sharp and very dense. In most contexts, adamantium would bounce, which is what I think would happen if Wolverine slashed Supes. Again, I'm portraying this interaction factoring the usual way in which comics are written.

They're almost always (never?) written like that when it comes to Wolverine. Point me to ten three clear instances where Wolverine notes that, if only he had more strength/leverage, he could pierce through something.

Maybe I need to rephrase: I'm factoring PIS in Superman's favor as he's an iconic character yadda yadda. I admit I will simply not go around checking Logan's appearances to bring you some proof. If I find them I'll smile to myself and nod, but that's about it. Carbonadium has resisted the claws already, if you want to ignore that Srank style, be my guest.

You seem to think Logan can pierce anything, I already explained that many of his high piercing showings on heralds are not inconsistance with those characters histories. If you want to make that an infinite fallacy, I'm not going to be following you through that ermm

^ I'm saying Superman hasn't anywhere near the level of piercing durability required to comfortably be seen as no-selling his claws. Not even close. That's adamantium/WW bracer/Cap's shield level. And Superman's piercing durability doesn't approach any of those in the slightest.

Neither are carbonadium, nor secondary adamantium. The've been pierced/wrecked/thrashed by far less compared to Wolverine's claws. And so has Superman.

Superman gets kitty-scratched at least, stabbed at worst. Based on what Wolverine's scratched/stabbed on-panel, that notion can't possibly offend you.

I don't know, I suppose kitty scratching wouldn't shock me that much, but by my readings I don't see that been the most likely outcome considering what we have seen of both characters.

Didn't Sentry no-sell Logan's claws?

^ It's the very least that would occur. You'd have to conclude Despero's piercing ability >>> Wolverine's otherwise. And I'm not even trying to remember what else has pierced Superman's skin.

People have argued to me that Sentry didn't. But either way, Sentry =/= Superman.

Well, if we admit that strength matters to measure piercing durability everything is fine and dandy 🙂

Originally posted by Bentley

Didn't Sentry no-sell Logan's claws?

Unless we are talking about a different comic, he grabbed Logan's hand between them and later held the back of them, never actually got slashed against it or even touched the edge.

There may one where he did get slashed and such, but the only real fight between them that I know of was when Sentry grabbed him.

Originally posted by Bentley
Well, if we admit that strength matters to measure piercing durability everything is fine and dandy 🙂

There are few things that can comfortably no-sell Wolverine's claws. Superman ain't one of em. And that's nothing to be ashamed of at all. Coming away with only kitty-scratches from Wolverine is Thor's best piercing durability feat by far.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I don't think Cap would pierce Sentry's hide with Ares' axe.

Why the hell not?

It's Adamantine, and FAR heavier than Wolverine's claws, being swung at comparable speeds to Wolverine swinging his arms. Logically, it should do a helluva a lot more P.S.I. output than what Logan can do.

^ I can't ignore how Wolverine's claws frequently ignore simple physics. Wolverine's claws would get stuck cutting through a steel door because of his lack of required strength let alone someone like Gladiator.

You just have to chalk it up to, "Wolverine's claws are just that sharp in comics (which still makes no sense but, hey, it's comics)."

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
For other characters when they have their durability tested, yea. I don't think Cap would pierce Sentry's hide with Ares' axe. I wasn't surprised when Ares did it though. When the characters have their durability tested by Wolverine's claws though, not so much. It's stupid but it happens.

Look, the essence of our positions isn't intrinsically different, except that I don't agree with Wolverine being threated as an exception when the examples of durability tested by Wolverine aren't all that stellar. Yes, before Gladiator was threatened with his claws I believed he was above his piercing damage, but again, Glads has a variable durability and he has been hurt and almost killed by no-name enemies before. In all truth if I believed Gladiator was going to resist was because he was similar to Superman, not because I had an amount of back feats from which I could prove his durability, piercing or otherwise. The fact that Gladiator fell to Wolverine wouldn't automatically make Superman in the same way, at least by my understanding of logical implications.

I believe it opens the posibility of such interaction, but I also think it's hardly conclussive proof.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0 There are few things that can comfortably no-sell Wolverine's claws. Superman ain't one of em. And that's nothing to be ashamed of at all. Coming away with only kitty-scratches from Wolverine is Thor's best piercing durability feat by far. [/B]

What I don't understand is your certainty in the issue. Superman is very hard to kill and very hard to hurt, unlike Thor he has actual "invulnerability" and not merely a slightly more dense make up. I guess I can't suspend my disbelief enough to assume Wolverine can kill Superman under any circumstances excluding weakness exploitation. The character has been portrayed like that for year, as being night invulnerable until a certain amount of power is excerted. It's part of his powerset, not his powerlevel.

I don't see Wolvie hurting classic Captain Marvel either, for the same reason, but he would chop similar characters such as Captain Atom, Apollo, Orion or Wonder Woman.

Originally posted by Bentley
Look, the essence of our positions isn't intrinsically different, except that I don't agree with Wolverine being threated as an exception when the examples of durability tested by Wolverine aren't all that stellar. Yes, before Gladiator was threatened with his claws I believed he was above his piercing damage, but again, Glads has a variable durability and he has been hurt and almost killed by no-name enemies before. In all truth if I believed Gladiator was going to resist was because he was similar to Superman, not because I had an amount of back feats from which I could prove his durability, piercing or otherwise. The fact that Gladiator fell to Wolverine wouldn't automatically make Superman in the same way, at least by my understanding of logical implications.

I believe it opens the posibility of such interaction, but I also think it's hardly conclussive proof.

Originally posted by Bentley
What I don't understand is your certainty in the issue. Superman is very hard to kill and very hard to hurt, unlike Thor he has actual "invulnerability" and not merely a slightly more dense make up. I guess I can't suspend my disbelief enough to assume Wolverine can kill Superman under any circumstances excluding weakness exploitation. The character has been portrayed like that for year, as being night invulnerable until a certain amount of power is excerted. It's part of his powerset, not his powerlevel.

I don't see Wolvie hurting classic Captain Marvel either, for the same reason, but he would chop similar characters such as Captain Atom, Apollo, Orion or Wonder Woman.

Frankly, I don't understand the kind of proof you want, because it seems you've already chosen that you need adamantium durability to resist James, which is something I don't accept.

Again, I may have used words that misrepresented my point of view, lowballing may come as a strong word all things considering. I'm not selling that Superman is as hard as adamantium, just that his powerset includes an invulnerability that makes it hard for me to just suppose he'll get hurt by sheer scratching with not enough force behind the hit. Some iterations of Superman have seen this invulnerability as a forcefield precisely because it's very weird in the way it interacts with the physical enviorment.

If I have Sentry no selling Logan, and then he being pierced by Ares, wouldn't that be proof that the ability to no-sell Logan isn't placed as high as you propose? I don't understand exactly which kind of showing would carry weight in the debate we're having.

Sentry never no sold Wolverine claws. Wolverine couldn't even land a lick on Sentry.

Originally posted by Bentley
Frankly, I don't understand the kind of proof you want, because it seems you've already chosen that you need adamantium durability to resist James, which is something I don't accept.

Again, I may have used words that misrepresented my point of view, lowballing may come as a strong word all things considering. I'm not selling that Superman is as hard as adamantium, just that his powerset includes an invulnerability that makes it hard for me to just suppose he'll get hurt by sheer scratching with not enough force behind the hit. Some iterations of Superman have seen this invulnerability as a forcefield precisely because it's very weird in the way it interacts with the physical enviorment.

Wolverine's claws interact weirdly too. Just because they haven't tried to come up with some pseudo-science explanation for it, doesn't mean they still don't act the way they do -- which we all admit is PISy in isolation but too prevalent to simply dismiss.

Originally posted by Bentley
If I have Sentry no selling Logan, and then he being pierced by Ares, wouldn't that be proof that the ability to no-sell Logan isn't placed as high as you propose? I don't understand exactly which kind of showing would carry weight in the debate we're having.

Originally posted by Bentley
Didn't Sentry no-sell Logan's claws?

What about the Blob? and Unus the Untouchable has.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Show me Superman no-selling what are commonly considered the sharpest blades forged of the most consistently durable metal in DC. Or show me H/P Doomsday and Despero piercing through things that are comfortably above what Wolverine has shredded (barring Superman, since he's the issue).

Wolverine's claws interact weirdly too. Just because they haven't tried to come up with some pseudo-science explanation for it, doesn't mean they still don't act the way they do -- which we all admit is PISy in isolation but too prevalent to simply dismiss. No. Ares' last hurrah doing what Wolverine (arguably) couldn't? I didn't say Wolverine can pierce far beyond anybody, even somebody like Ares. If you're strong enough (Ares was) and have got the proper tools (adamantine axe is good for what ails you), you can cut like Wolverine or better, despite not possessing his Wolverithmetic-empowered claws.

I'm not sure Ares could breat adamantium with his axe, so if such coincidence existed -Sentry resisting Wolverine but failing to hurt Ares-, it would mean that Superman can resist the claws without being adamantium hard. Which is the first step towards his durability being on an acceptable anti-Logan level.

The issue, however, is that I think we're walking into a no-proof zone in which no matter what kind of argument or showing I bring, nothing will prove my point in a matter satisfying enough to justify the effort of looking for said proof.

It was explained why he couldn't damage the Blob.

Originally posted by -K-M-
What about the Blob? and Unus the Untouchable has.

Reed has, but I don't see Superman going all Mr. Fantastic.