Character Ownage

Started by ODG5,121 pages
ODG Find Your Own Fire

Originally posted by zopzop
Too bad the entire Children's Crusade fiasco, the Lifeforce, and Doom's manipulations aren't even mentioned in AvX or it's tie ins.

It's not like these events happened 30 years ago, yet they aren't mentioned once. Just "Wanda and her mutant Chaos Magic".

That fact isn't dispositive of HoM Wanda not showing up in Avengers Vs. X-Men. Wanda showed up. HoM Wanda didn't. Because the last time she had that level of power was Children's Crusade and she lost it.
Originally posted by zopzop
AvX Wanda IS HoM Wanda.
Lol, no. Doom usurped the Lifeforce on-panel to the point where she couldn't even feel it anymore and everyone from Beast to Cyclops is going, "But if she doesn't have the power anymore, she can't cure the mutants, waahwaah, etc."

The only thing Wanda could do on her own at that point (actually with Wiccan's help) was open the portal wider to overload Doom. She never took the Lifeforce back, and by all accounts, never could. After all, it took Doom's assistance in the first place for her to be able to capture it into her own being precipitating House of M. And we all knew Doom left her high and dry after Children's Crusade.

zopzop Lord of the Great Abyss

Originally posted by ODG
That fact isn't dispositive of HoM Wanda not showing up in Avengers Vs. X-Men. Wanda showed up. HoM Wanda didn't. Because the last time she had that level of power was Children's Crusade and she lost it. Lol, no. Doom usurped the Lifeforce on-panel to the point where she couldn't even feel it anymore and everyone from Beast to Cyclops is going, "But if she doesn't have the power anymore, she can't cure the mutants, waahwaah, etc."

The only thing Wanda could do on her own at that point (actually with Wiccan's help) was open the portal wider to overload Doom. She never took the Lifeforce back, and by all accounts, never could. After all, it took Doom's assistance in the first place for her to be able to capture it into her own being precipitating House of M. And we all knew Doom left her high and dry after Children's Crusade.


Bro, why wasn't this little fact mentioned at ANY TIME during the AvX event? Do you get what I'm saying? The Children's Crusade events are only a few months old, why wasn't it mentioned ANYWHERE that it was Doom who manipulated Wanda into tapping a Godlike universal force and using it get her kids back that caused the entire HoM fiasco?

It's not like they were bringing in continuity from even a decade ago. It was clearly stated on panel that it was Wanda's power that rewrote the natural order!

ODG Find Your Own Fire

^ Because it doesn't matter? There is no significance to this non-fact and your trying to force it upon us to salvage a comparison that doesn't even bear out when you compare the feats.

Wanda did use her power both times. She just happened to be amped by the Lifeforce during House of M. As it was revealed on-panel in a 9-part limited series. Nothing Iron Man said retcons that away just because you want AvX Wanda to be the same as HoM Wanda. That doesn't even make any sense.

Originally posted by Sundipped
One more question for anyone who wants to answer:

Where does this leave us?
Are we now supposed to believe Chthons power>>Phoenix force? Even though she had zero effect on a PF host with half of the power?
Or is it the combination of Chaos magic and probability = any warp with unlimited possibilities?
Throw in the fact that she is a nexus being also.

Marvel writers get it together please.
They should have background checks for writers in terms of the character they're handling before they write this stuff.

It seemed the Chaos power Wanda wielded wasn't enough to defeat or stalemate the Phoenixforce on its own. Otherwise, she would have. Whenever the ultimate source of her Chaos powers ends up being revealed (AGAIN), we can maybe start looking at Chthon again. But with all the retcons/explanations, it isn't safe (or responsible) to simply insert Chthon into the whole thing and conclude Chthon > Phoenixforce.

I don't see any need for writer bashing. Some aren't fans of the Phoenixforce being treated this way in the end, but considering a non-HoM Wanda and Shao Lao Iron Fist energy were thwarting pieces of the Phoenixforce on-panel, the story resolution shouldn't have come as a huge surprise.

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

So is AvX over now, or is there still more to go?

zopzop Lord of the Great Abyss

Originally posted by Galan007
So is AvX over now, or is there still more to go?

Nope. Next up : AvX - Consequences and guess who's writing it 🙂

Doon Senior Member
Originally posted by zopzop
Nope. Next up : AvX - Consequences and guess who's writing it 🙂

It should be called AvX: Clarification Needed or AvX: WTF???

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Sooo has the main series concluded, or is it still ongoing..?

Branlor Swift Dead

Originally posted by zopzop
That's great. What's the point? This happened prior to HoM.
But the argument you're bringing up makes that irrelevant. It was Wanda's power that failed there, and it was Wanda's power that caused HOM.

Without the Life Force there is no change.

Or you use your head and realize that Wanda never recovered the Life Force in Children's Crusade and was the same Wanda that got knocked out by Emma Frost. IE, not even a little bit HOM.

zopzop Lord of the Great Abyss

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
But the argument you're bringing up makes that irrelevant. It was Wanda's power that failed there, and it was Wanda's power that caused HOM.

Without the Life Force there is no change.

Or you use your head and realize that Wanda never recovered the Life Force in Children's Crusade and was the same Wanda that got knocked out by Emma Frost. IE, not even a little bit HOM.


Not really. From House of M onward, according to AvX, Wanda had uber reality warping powers. The only retcon, Children's Crusade, has apparently been completely ignored, as per AvX where it was stated it was WANDA'S POWER THAT REWROTE THE NATURAL ORDER.

ODG Find Your Own Fire

Originally posted by zopzop
Not really. From House of M onward, according to AvX, Wanda had uber reality warping powers. The only retcon, Children's Crusade, has apparently been completely ignored, as per AvX where it was stated it was WANDA'S POWER THAT REWROTE THE NATURAL ORDER.
She always had reality warping powers even before House of M. Dr. Strange even lectures the Avengers on that for a few pages. Stark not mentioning the Lifeforce in his character statements doesn't retcon it away, since we already know the on-panel explanation accounting for the difference in power levels: Doom stole the Lifeforce from her and never helped her gain it back.

Branlor Swift Dead

Originally posted by zopzop
Not really. From House of M onward, according to AvX, Wanda had uber reality warping powers. The only retcon, Children's Crusade, has apparently been completely ignored, as per AvX where it was stated it was WANDA'S POWER THAT REWROTE THE NATURAL ORDER.
What's the explanation for her uber reality warping powers then?

It was ignored because Tony ignored it. Tony, the natural expert on HOM. Hell, the Life Force was only known about in depth by the people that never talked about Wanda at all in AVX.

You know what you're ignoring though? The fact that Wanda was explained on panel to lose the Life Force. IE she can't be HOM. Stop trolling.

This was her story. AVX was Phoenix's. We didn't need to go in depth with this again.

Sundipped MURDERER

Originally posted by ODG
It seemed the Chaos power Wanda wielded wasn't enough to defeat or stalemate the Phoenixforce on its own. Otherwise, she would have. Whenever the ultimate source of her Chaos powers ends up being revealed (AGAIN), we can maybe start looking at Chthon again. But with all the retcons/explanations, it isn't safe (or responsible) to simply insert Chthon into the whole thing and conclude Chthon > Phoenixforce.

I don't see any need for writer bashing. Some aren't fans of the Phoenixforce being treated this way in the end, but considering a non-HoM Wanda and Shao Lao Iron Fist energy were thwarting pieces of the Phoenixforce on-panel, the story resolution shouldn't have come as a huge surprise.

Good because I didn't wanna put Chthon above the PF.

Im not bashing writers but not connecting important facts from different arcs, brings about confusion for the reader. We still have no idea about what kind of power source the "Life Force" actually is. Back in AvX 7 Tony said the powers were similar in nature but this wasn't explored throughly IMO. After the events of CC, seemed like they could have went a little more in depth with it but they didn't.

zopzop Lord of the Great Abyss

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
What's the explanation for her uber reality warping powers then?

It was ignored because Tony ignored it. Tony, the natural expert on HOM. Hell, the Life Force was only known about in depth by the people that never talked about Wanda at all in AVX.

You know what you're ignoring though? The fact that Wanda was explained on panel to lose the Life Force. IE she can't be HOM. Stop trolling.

This was her story. AVX was Phoenix's. We didn't need to go in depth with this again.


No one is trolling and teh AvX scan speaks for itself. It states plain as day "IT WAS WANDA'S POWER THAT REWROTE THE NATURAL ORDER". Not the Lifeforce, WANDA'S POWER.

Branlor Swift Dead

Originally posted by zopzop
No one is trolling and teh AvX scan speaks for itself. It states plain as day "IT WAS WANDA'S POWER THAT REWROTE THE NATURAL ORDER". Not the Lifeforce, WANDA'S POWER.
You are. In 2 issues you went from a baby dragon being able to hurt half the Force to saying Phoenix is omniversal and HOM Wanda is 1/5 of the Phoenix's power... because of a sentence from Tony Stark.
This isn't even factoring in all the shit you said about the Phoenix before hand.

So we erase 9 issues because Tony was talking out of his ass?

ODG Find Your Own Fire

Originally posted by zopzop
No one is trolling and teh AvX scan speaks for itself. It states plain as day "IT WAS WANDA'S POWER THAT REWROTE THE NATURAL ORDER". Not the Lifeforce, WANDA'S POWER.
The absence of evidence, isn't evidence of absence. Wanda's Chaos magic was responsible for House of M. As it was eventually revealed, it was just Chaos magic amped up to all hell by the Lifeforce. So mentioning Wanda's Chaos powers doesn't negate the on-panel fact that the Lifeforce amped them and her. That character statement by Tony can stand on its own. And it doesn't contradict Children's Crusade at all. The Lifeforce =/= Chaos magic.
Originally posted by Sundipped
Good because I didn't wanna put Chthon above the PF.

Im not bashing writers but not connecting important facts from different arcs, brings about confusion for the reader. We still have no idea about what kind of power source the "Life Force" actually is. Back in AvX 7 Tony said the powers were similar in nature but this wasn't explored throughly IMO. After the events of CC, seemed like they could have went a little more in depth with it but they didn't.

I don't see the confusion. Wanting recap pages doesn't change what happened. Nothing in Avengers Vs. X-Men changed what happened in Children's Crusade.

Doon Senior Member
Originally posted by Galan007
Sooo has the main series concluded, or is it still ongoing..?

It's done.

Stall_19 Herald of Galactus

All this arguing and it doesn't matter. It's been confirmed that this entire event is Pixie & Squirrel Girl playing with mind control puppets. 🙂

ODG Find Your Own Fire

Originally posted by Stall_19
All this arguing and it doesn't matter. It's been confirmed that this entire event is Pixie & Squirrel Girl playing with mind control puppets. 🙂
Or it was Mr Master and Galacticstorm, with the former trolling the sh1t out of the latter. 😂

zopzop Lord of the Great Abyss

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
You are. In 2 issues you went from a baby dragon being able to hurt half the Force to saying Phoenix is omniversal and HOM Wanda is 1/5 of the Phoenix's power... because of a sentence from Tony Stark.
This isn't even factoring in all the shit you said about the Phoenix before hand.

So we erase 9 issues because Tony was talking out of his ass?


Yes. That's how it works. You have like 200 writers writing this garbage. The last guy gets the final say. It was WANDA'S POWER THAT ALTERED THE NATURAL BALANCE and it was the power of the Phoenix that undid her hex. Wanda's chaos magic and the PF are yin and yang. You don't have to like it, but that's not my problem.

Regarding my sh|t talking the PF, it was justified. That's what was going on on panel.

ODG Find Your Own Fire

^ This doesn't even prove anything about what you're trying to say about "AvX Wanda = HoM Wanda" or that "Phoenixforce = omniversal." Neither of which is true or supported by any actual on-panel feats.

You're just twisting a character statement around to subvert what occurred on-panel.