Iceman vs. ? - seriously!!!

Originally posted by jrodslam
Beats the hell outta me who she is.

BUT it does indeed prove he attacks her. Notice how shes dead and he says " I found my water elsewhere. I think ill put it to better use than SHE did."

Meaning he took all the water that was inside her and reformed himself. Iceman can control where he gets him water from obviously. She had two of his allies in her grasp and they werent affected. It had nothing to do with where she was standing, because the kids were in the same area she was. He got it directly from her and thats very clear.

Again, what i'm saying is that the effect would be the exact same if he were draining the moisture from the spot she's in rather than directly from her body.

Originally posted by Demas
Uh, that's patently not true. The entire fight with Zum- birth-story of the IMP, so coined- took place in less than a second. Later instances of throwing the IMP, Flash says he can throw a thousand in a blink WHILE at super-speed.

What Dark Urizen is asking is whether Bobby can target something he can't perceive but can conceive. Your scan does not demonstrate that since his target is clearly perceptable.

Personally, I'm convinced he can't, which is why he was surprised by the stealthed/piloted Sentinel in the recent issue of X-Men. It's not like he "tracked the pilot's moisture" to know there was someone hidden there... instead, he was just as surprised as everyone else.

That means if Flash stays beyond Iceman's perception, he should be untargetable.

✅
you got it.

Originally posted by jrodslam
Well in the fight with Zum it appeared to have taken place in less than a second and he wasnt even going light speed at the time. Yet more times than not, it takes him several seconds to do so.

Secondly, in current issues of X-Men, Bobby isnt in complete control of his powers. Also he along with the others did know of the cloaked being that was in the area. Also, the pilot is inside the Sentinel which most likely hides and protects the being from giving off heat signatures. Iceman wouldnt be able to detect a human in it because its over 20ft high for one and his powers are out of control for two. So that point is nulled.

Like ive stated before, i have no doubts that Flash can hit Bobby and shatter him. Thats what most likely will happen. However, Flash will be percieved after that hit and thats where he can get his damage in to take down Flash.

I agree with that. Flash can and will destroy bobby's body. But i don't think Bobby can hurt Flash, given that there's no proof that he attacks a person rather than a spot.

Originally posted by jrodslam
Well in the fight with Zum it appeared to have taken place in less than a second and he wasnt even going light speed at the time. Yet more times than not, it takes him several seconds to do so.

No, most of the time Flash pulls out the IMP after trying several other tactics at highspeed... all still taking less than a second. And if we're going to say "most of the time" then Bobby's superior powers don't come into play have occured only once or twice in dozens of appearances (or do I need to count off all the times Bobby hasn't been used to his peak potential in X-Men?). If you're trying to question Flash's acceleration, there's no question, I can provide several feats showing instantaneous "bullet-time" as a reflex... at least sufficient to beat thought.

Secondly, in current issues of X-Men, Bobby isnt in complete control of his powers.

Uh, then wouldn't be be lacking for any rumbles using current Bobby? Even if you want to use that excuse you can use just a few issue back where Bobby fails to have moisture omniscience... he can still be stealthed, skunked, or caught unawares which suggests his targeting is entirely perception based.

Also, the pilot is inside the Sentinel which most likely hides and protects the being from giving off heat signatures.

By that argument Flash, even without travelling faster than light/thought/information should be inperceptible to Iceman's senses because his Speed Force aura shields him from heat & friction and likewise shields the environment from his signature- which is why he doesn't cause fire-trails and sonic-booms whever he goes.

Iceman wouldnt be able to detect a human in it because its over 20ft high

If 20ft height prevents Iceman from detection, why wouldn't travelling faster than light/thought/information? By the time Bobby forms a thought or reflex, I can assure you, Flash can be significantly further than 20ft away.

Like ive stated before, i have no doubts that Flash can hit Bobby and shatter him. Thats what most likely will happen.

I disagree. Flash has fought many an elemental and knows better. For that matter, it doesn't take a whole lot of experience to realize shattering a golem made of ice you can see through isn't going to do much to it. Anyways we've been here before... if they both bust out their best feats, Flash wins. If they both act in character, it's a stalemate. The only case where Iceman wins is when he wants to kill and Flash doesn't.

However, Flash will be percieved after that hit and thats where he can get his damage in to take down Flash.

Again, only if Flash goes for an obviously useless shattering, sticks around, and Iceman decides to use lethal force - otherwise Flash reacts and/or escapes. It needs to be restated: Flash regularly deals with absolute zero temps from Captain Cold; so that alone is not enough to stop him.

wouldnt this pic prove that he attacks a person (to wickerman....sorry i cant remember your new name...Dark Urizen???)

http://img332.imageshack.us/my.php?image=icemanbloodfreeze4zt8la.jpg

Originally posted by Demas

I disagree. Flash has fought many an elemental and knows better. For that matter, it doesn't take a whole lot of experience to realize shattering a golem made of ice you can see through isn't going to do much to it.

Thats an assumption....if you beat the crap outa an ice golem and it just shatters and you dont see anything....wouldnt you just say, "damn that was easy...." and move on?

Originally posted by Blair Wind
wouldnt this pic prove that he attacks a person (to wickerman....sorry i cant remember your new name...Dark Urizen???)

http://img332.imageshack.us/my.php?image=icemanbloodfreeze4zt8la.jpg

Yeah, it's Dark Urizen 😉

No, it doesn't i'm afraid. It shows Emma just standing there in one place. There's nothing that would imply him attacking HER, Emma, rather than her location.

See, i used the Blink thing earlier to explain the difference, let me make it easier to understand this way:

Blink has proven on several times that she can port things into PEOPLE and not into their location. One such example would be against Hyperion. Hyperion was vibrating his molecules at such speed, that he was for all means intangible. You could put a hand through him.

Blink ports half a ton of sand into him. It shows she ports it directly into the PERSON, because if she would have ported it into Hyperion's location, it would've fallen to the ground, since he was for all means intangible.

Iceman on the other hand doesn't have AFAIK a feat like that that would prove (without question) that his powers affect PERSONS rather than their locations. 🙁

Iceman was freezing the flow of blood to Emma's brain. What he did was purely an attack on HER and not the location. He didnt freeze the area around her. He used her own blood and stopped it from flowing.

Originally posted by jrodslam
Iceman was freezing the flow of blood to Emma's brain. What he did was purely an attack on HER and not the location. He didnt freeze the area around her. He used her own blood and stopped it from flowing.

😂 I'm not getting through to you.
By location i don't mean the area completely. There doesn't have to be like......visible proof like the air around her sparkling or anything. If he attacks the location like i say (and there's no proof that says otherwise), then he targets each small spot individually and they are automatically assembled as a whole which is affected.

Wow.......that's complicated and hard to grasp. Dammit......i wish i could be more eloquent 🙁 (i'm serious).

Ok, here's a little drawing to tell you what i mean.

This is what i, Dark Urizen, mean by affecting location. Notice the yellow dots (that i only put on the arteries around the heart, cause i'm lazy). Those are the spots he's affecting. But he's affecting their location, not the person they reside in.

And here's what i think YOU understand by what i'm saying.

See the difference?

When i say location, i don't mean like an area around her where she's located. It can be as small as he wants to. The idea is that she's overlapping a location with certain coordinates, and as far as i'm concerned, he's affecting those coordinates, not what resides IN those coordinates.

Originally posted by Blair Wind
Thats an assumption....if you beat the crap outa an ice golem and it just shatters and you dont see anything....wouldnt you just say, "damn that was easy...." and move on?

1. No. Not with basic info on Iceman. A founding X-Man with several years of experience isn't defeated by a punch. And again, Flash has fought enough elementals, which ISN'T an assumption, unlike all the groundless statements on what he would or wouldn't do. It would be like me saying Bobby, faced with a cosmically powered individual just pisses his pants and depowers in hopelessness. Then continually insisting, "Isn't that what anyone would do against a cosmic?" That argument doesn't work because Bobby has faced cosmic individuals. The same for Flash. The argument that he would first resort to a punch and stop there is bogus because it's contrary to his history and experience.

2. Move on? Then what exactly is Iceman responding to? Shatter and go home, Iceman's just going to reform with nothing to target. Of course this all relies on FORCING Flash to uncharacteristically shatter Bobby and then Bobby uncharacteristically using lethal force against someone who didn't use lethal force against him, which is all sorts of wrong. I might as well say that Bobby depowers, sets his own head on a block, and hands Flash an axe which is almost as in character as the shatter scenario.

Originally posted by Demas
1. No. Not with basic info on Iceman. A founding X-Man with several years of experience isn't defeated by a punch. And again, Flash has fought enough elementals, which ISN'T an assumption, unlike all the groundless statements on what he would or wouldn't do. It would be like me saying Bobby, faced with a cosmically powered individual just pisses his pants and depowers in hopelessness. Then continually insisting, "Isn't that what anyone would do against a cosmic?" That argument doesn't work because Bobby has faced cosmic individuals. The same for Flash. The argument that he would first resort to a punch and stop there is bogus because it's contrary to his history and experience.

[but most of the x-men dont even know that Iceman can do that, no many people do [mystique, toad, Juggs, Jean, and Xavier] so he will think that hes a done deal]

2. Move on? Then what exactly is Iceman responding to? Shatter and go home, Iceman's just going to reform with nothing to target. Of course this all relies on FORCING Flash to uncharacteristically shatter Bobby and then Bobby uncharacteristically using lethal force against someone who didn't use lethal force against him, which is all sorts of wrong. I might as well say that Bobby depowers, sets his own head on a block, and hands Flash an axe which is almost as in character as the shatter scenario.[when I say move on, I mean until Iceman freezes something]

dont get me wrong I think Flash wins 8.5/10......but iceman will win some

Originally posted by Demas
1. No. Not with basic info on Iceman. A founding X-Man with several years of experience isn't defeated by a punch. And again, Flash has fought enough elementals, which ISN'T an assumption, unlike all the groundless statements on what he would or wouldn't do. It would be like me saying Bobby, faced with a cosmically powered individual just pisses his pants and depowers in hopelessness. Then continually insisting, "Isn't that what anyone would do against a cosmic?" That argument doesn't work because Bobby has faced cosmic individuals. The same for Flash. The argument that he would first resort to a punch and stop there is bogus because it's contrary to his history and experience.

2. Move on? Then what exactly is Iceman responding to? Shatter and go home, Iceman's just going to reform with nothing to target. Of course this all relies on FORCING Flash to uncharacteristically shatter Bobby and then Bobby uncharacteristically using lethal force against someone who didn't use lethal force against him, which is all sorts of wrong. I might as well say that Bobby depowers, sets his own head on a block, and hands Flash an axe which is almost as in character as the shatter scenario.

Take into account please that I personally am using the "Flash shatters Bobby" scenario because it's the most favorable one for Bobby, and i want to prove that even in the most favorable scenario for him, he still won't win.

I completely agree with you that Flash is smarter than just shattering him, especially since he can stretch the time it would take Iceman to form a though into days, just standing there and investigating what Iceman looks like, what he might be like, etc.

Originally posted by Blair Wind
dont get me wrong I think Flash wins 8.5/10......but iceman will win some

GODDAMIT I GO OUT OF MY MIND POSTING LIKE A MAD MAN IN THIS DAMN THREAD TRYING TO REACH OUT AND EXPLAIN MY POINT OF VIEW, MAKING SCHEMES AND SHIT, AT LEAST TAKE THEM INTO ACCOUNT AND SAY "I DON'T CARE" OR SOMETHING SO THAT I KNOW SOMEONE IS ACTUALLY READING GODDAMMIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 😠

Sorry 😮
I'm very very tired and it's snowing outside and i have a headache cry

Originally posted by Dark Urizen
See the difference?

When i say location, i don't mean like an area around her where she's located. It can be as small as he wants to. The idea is that she's overlapping a location with certain coordinates, and as far as i'm concerned, he's affecting those coordinates, not what resides IN those coordinates.

very plausible..... 😛 happy!!!!!!!! 😠

😛 😛

Originally posted by Blair Wind
very plausible..... 😛 happy!!!!!!!! 😠

😛 😛

Yes luv 😉

It's snowing and i'm with my balcony door opened in my boxers 😖

i wana kno more about a psychological war expert

Originally posted by o.g. slaughter
i wana kno more about a psychological war expert

Take something like a demon sitting on Bobby's shoulder speaking thoughts into his ear that he might sometimes think are his own. Bobby can't fight a spirit with his powers, but meanwhile that voice can work Bobby over bringing up all his past failures, questioning his self-worth, crushing his hopes, and making him give into despair.

In such a situation, it's possible Bobby depowers and takes his own life.

That's just one scenario, but the basic point is that someone or something brings Bobby to the point of cutting himself from his own powers, like in the recent events of X-Men, and thus making him conventionally vulnerable.

Originally posted by Demas
Take something like a demon sitting on Bobby's shoulder speaking thoughts into his ear that he might sometimes think are his own. Bobby can't fight a spirit with his powers, but meanwhile that voice can work Bobby over bringing up all his past failures, questioning his self-worth, crushing his hopes, and making him give into despair.

In such a situation, it's possible Bobby depowers and takes his own life.

That's just one scenario, but the basic point is that someone or something brings Bobby to the point of cutting himself from his own powers, like in the recent events of X-Men, and thus making him conventionally vulnerable.

There are drugs in the employ of several government funded agencies that can do exactly that ✅