Originally posted by snoopdogg
Like 80% of the fans I did not.At my LCS today I picked up the issue where she fought Champion. The artist made him look like a 90 year old man. The whole story seemed more like a joke.
But that's my opinion.
The artist has an unusual style. His style of drawing faces is sort of cartoony, but I kind of like it. Anyway, the story was humorous, to be sure, but it happened in continuity.
Originally posted by Melnorme
I don't agree with this line of thought. It's bordering on an appeal to ignorance. Though, I too find it disappointing that there aren't many 100-ton feats to reinforce your claims as to Colossus's strength. Personally, as I've stated, I was under the impression that he was a notch just below the hundred tonners, but I'll take you at your word.I'm not sure how much "far" is. Certainly, in my opinion, they are comparable within an area of less than 30% variance (or in other words, if She-Hulk is arbitrarily a "10" in Durability, Colossus is not better than a "13" on that same scale...do you disagree?) If that is the case, then her Strength far exceeds his by no less than a factor of 2 (or in other words, if She-Hulk is a "10" Colossus is less than a "5" on the same scale). Clearly, her Strength makes up for this difference in toughness. I'll also note that, as was observed by another poster in this thread, Strength and Toughness tend to go hand-in-hand in comic books, so as her Strength has upgraded, so too should her durability. And also, as has been mentioned, she does have a "healing factor".
This I agree with. I think many people underestimate Jen's fighting prowess. She knows what she's doing...she's been a member of the FF and the Avengers, and has been trained by some of the best. Colossus is obviously also very skilled, but I also think they are comparable in skill.
Also, I'd like to apologize for implying that your opinion shouldn't count due to bias. That wasn't fair on my part. You can certainly have a favorite character, and still be balanced in your opinions. I'm right with you in thinking Colossus is a fantastic character (one of my favorites...I wept when he "died" awhile ago). I just need to show you why I think She-Hulk would take the majority. And of course, you're welcome to change my mind as well. 🙂
It's cool. No worries. Don't get me wrong. I like She-Hulk. I think she's a very interesting character.
And I don't mind when I'm wrong, nor am I afraid to admit when the character I'm supporting loses. It happens.
But I just feel that Colossus brings more to the table than She-Hulk.
For one, being nearly impervious to harm. Nigh-invulnerability if you will. He's composed of an unknown, INCREDIBLY durable metal (which seems to be second to adamantium from the comic evidence). This means he doesn't have nerves, skin, or even bones to break. It's the nature of his power. While Jen does have a healing factor and a certain level of durability, I just haven't seen it to be in comparison to Colossus'. It should be noted that Colossus, too, has a healing factor. As well as the ability to increase his strength with rade, as has been shown before when he's become enraged. Not as noticably as the Hulk, no, but still quite apparent.
And is She-Hulk literally twice as strong? I don't doubt her being uber strong, but I do feel that it might be speculation on everyone's part (including my own really) to say that, since 616 Colossus really hasn't had any sort of super-strength feat in the past several years that I can think of. So really, it's just kind of hard to compare the two levels of strength without some sort of evidence on Colossus' part.
Endurance could also play a very key role in this match. Since Shulkie is still flesh and blood, although green, she still eventually tires and becomes fatigued. Eventually of course. While Colossus, on the other hand, doesn't fatigue at all when transformed, wielding seemingly limitless stamina. That could prove quite useful as well.
It seems that both of these characters also have a knack for taking out/holding their own again opponents much stronger than them. That's why I feel strength is not so much of an issue here. I mean, Wonder Woman takes it Superman and can (and has, I believe) defeat him under her own power. He's stronger, yes, but she has more skills and a few other effective powers. That's all I'm trying to say here in this thread. I just feel that Colossus has a bit more variety to him, making him a bit too versatile for Shulkie to handle.
Any majority that I think Colossus wins will not be a big one at all. In fact, I'd go so far as to say Colossus would win 5.5/10.
Strength alone will not win this match.
Originally posted by Melnorme Highly speculative. She knows the moves, and knows how to fight. She's used to switching back and forth...it didn't seem to present a problem vs Champion, so I don't know where you're getting this from. On the same token, why don't you propose limiting Colossus in the same way? At least Jen's still made of flesh and bone...Colossus can't even feel, or smell, or presumably see and hear the same way he does 90% of the rest of the time. Why doesn't that completely screw up his abilities?
It's not that speculative, the She-Hulk solo continually reinforces the Jekyll/Hyde personality differences, at the very least She-Hulk is less disciplined than Jen and discipline is a key component of martial arts. Then regarding feats, we've never seen She-Hulk exhibited as an expert fighter, relying on strength even IF she knew moves that would let her surgically use less force and more technique, for whatever reason as She-Hulk she doesn't.
As for Colossus, the difference can be in training. Colossus is trained in his metal form. We don't know when/where Jen picked up her Jen fighting skills, we can't assume she learned them in her She-Hulk form and they carried over (and likely didn't as they'd do frail Jen little good)... and the personality She-Hulk portrays suggests otherwise, bordering on ADD... I can't see She-Hulk sitting through meditation and training when she knows she can just rely on her muscles; however, I can see Jen doing for herself.
So whatever we assume, as far as seen feats, we don't see She-Hulk busting out Kung Fu or training in it.
just chalk it up to a lack of communication?
Even if that's the case, that's what makes a feat live or die. If She-Hulk doesn't continually display that level of strength from a volume back, we can see that she's been effectively depowered as far as the Marvel Universe is concerned. It's what makes the SMvsFL an exception vs rule. That's why, personally, I'm waiting for more feats before I claim She-Hulk is magnitudes stronger than Thing/Colossus, particularly when we can use in-story/in-canon elements to explain a depowering (namely Jen stopping her self-conditioning).
Originally posted by DarkCrawler
But if he was able to do so in sixties, why not in 21st? Was he powered down? So in three months, Silver Surfer (he is master of fighting?), Gladiator (same), Drax (he as never been master of fighting to my recall) and Gamora (Only one with exeptional fighting skills, are able to deliver training that equals billions of years of constant fighting? Billions of years of perfecting to be a...perfect fighting machine? Billions of years of channeling the Power Primordial to reflexes, speed, strenght and durability?
We can assume Jens strength is exponentially increased by a factor of thousands. Meaning if Jenny goes from human class 100 to human class 160, that'll be a gigantic boost for Shulkie.
Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Her strength in human form increased by thousands? 🤨
Worded it wrong.
No, her strength in human form increases her strength in Hulk form exponentially. A small increase(10-15lbs) to Jen Walters could be thousands of pounds for She-Hulk. Shulkie is thousands of times stronger than Jen, so Jens increases in strength increase Shulkies overall strength by thousands.
We really need a Marvel Encyclopedia to address this 😛
Also: The artist who drew that She-Hulk vs Champion comic did the last few comics, and She-Hulk was noticably "thicker" than usual.
Originally posted by MuffinmanMike
Also: The artist who drew that She-Hulk vs Champion comic did the last few comics, and She-Hulk was noticably "thicker" than usual.
In a way though, She-Hulk is not canon. 😬
Breaking the fourth wallOne interesting quirk is that she apparently also has some form of "cross-dimensional" awareness, as Jennifer is capable of breaking through the so-called fourth wall. Some stories have revealed that she knows that she is a comic book character, a situation virtually unique among mainstream Marvel superheroes, and has allowed her to perform such oddities as tearing through the page and running over a page of advertisements in order to reach the otherwise inaccessible control center of an enemy. On numerous instances, she even ended up arguing with the author of her comic, John Byrne, or appealed to the comic's editor at the time, Renée Witterstaetter, when Byrne appeared to be out of control.
It's worth noting that this awareness is dependent on circumstances beyond the fictional events in the Marvel Universe, and comes and goes on the whim of writers and editors. As a rule of thumb, it can be assumed that in any story that does not specifically mention or feature said ability, she is not aware of being a comic book character. Other characters write her off as delusional on this point.
More recently, in the 2004 She-Hulk series written by Dan Slott, where she is a lawyer specializing in superhuman law, actual Marvel comic books are considered legal documents, which the characters cite for legal cases. In one issue, while doing research for a case against the Roxxon corporation, she discovers her origin issue, Savage She-Hulk #1. This conceit also proved handy when the law office was destroyed and she needed to find information on Infinity Gems — so she went into a comic-book store.
Originally posted by Melnorme
Just because she's aware of what she is, it doesn't mean she's not canon. If it did, then that means by its nature alone, a comic book cannot be canon, which would defeat the whole purpose of this forum. 😉
They recently retconned it so that comics exist, but it's based on real events 😛
Meaning Jen could've easily been yelling at the writer who followed her around, or stomped into the editors room when she saw a draft, and thus got a "special" scene added in.
Originally posted by MuffinmanMikeI wonder if Colossus could do that?
Worded it wrong.No, her strength in human form increases her strength in Hulk form exponentially. A small increase(10-15lbs) to Jen Walters could be thousands of pounds for She-Hulk.
If he worked out in human form he would be much stronger as Colossus. But being he spent the last 3 years held as a prisoner I'm sure he wasn't working out.
Originally posted by snoopdogg
I wonder if Colossus could do that?If he worked out in human form he would be much stronger as Colossus. But being he spent the last 3 years held as a prisoner I'm sure he wasn't working out.
I don't see why not. I mean, truthfully, there hasn't been evidence for it. But, on the same page, there hasn't been evidence against it either. So really, it's debatable.