@Lightsnake:
You're really annoying with your blatant Sidious fanboyism...
And by the way, Lucas himself confirmed that Sidious faked that little lightning scene. He was lying through his teeth about being 'weak.' Last I checked, he obliterated three of those Jedi masters with comical ease and when he really wanted to, killed Mace showing much more power than he had previously, Mace being no pushover whatsoever, read Shatterpoint.
Watch the scene and switch on the commentary. The only thing Lucas said is that Sidious was faking not to have any power left after using lightning on Mace for the first time.
And that's after he said that he planned the scene always the same: Sidious kills the Jedi Masters, Maces overpowers Sidious, Anakin safes Sidious. Without Anakin Sidious would have been dead. Period.
And nope, sorry, DE Sidious is never different than OT Sidious. Sidious is called the Strongest warrior the Darkside ever produced in relation to Episode 3 in the TOTJ companion, the ROTS novelization and int he chronology.
That is nothing more than a big pile of fanboyish BS. You say that nearly 20 years between PT and OT did nothing to Sidious skills ? He plundered the archieves of the Jedi temple he went to Korriban, Ziost and other planets and nothing of that did influence his power level, knowledge or skill ? Then he had another 10 years between the OT and DE and again this did nothing to him because...oh yes...because you don't like it.
That's like saying ROTJ Luke could have done everything NJO Luke can do but he was just holding back for some mysterious reason.
And stop try to use EU stuff to overwrite movie canon.
It's clear that Sidious in the PT had less power than his former master Plagueis. He didn't archieve Plagueis power over midichlorians. He didn't have the power to defeat death. So how could he have been the "most powerful ever" in this time when he hadn't surpassed the power level of his own former master ? Logical fallancy.
The only thing you can do is developing the assumption that Sidious didn't become more powerful over 3 decades in which he seeked knowledge and artifacts and trained Vader and other people. So basically Sidious didn't change from ROTS on - I wonder why he did search for knowledge and power if it didn't make him more powerful. There must be some logic behind that assumption that a non-Sidious-fanboy can't get... 🙄
I'll tell you something, this thread certainly increases my contempt for the silly, overblown powers of the EU.
However, Lightsnake, a couple of points:
1. GL has only confirmed that Sidious was feigning weakness when crying out for help from Anakin. As regards the actual sabre duel, the indication is very much that Windu won that fair and square. Now, I do not want that debate to start up again in here, but you cannot take your view there for granted as fact.
2. All this talk about "Why didn't Sidious do this or that?' is still completely irrelevant in the face of authoritative quotes from creators. Like I say, if the events in the EU seem to contradict these things... then the EU is in error.
However.- Lightsnake, I think at this point you really must produce direct sources both for GL saying Sidious is the most powerful, and for Kevin Anderson saying it. If you cnanot produce them, I am afraid you continually saying it is no good.
If you can find them- then this argument is over, Sidious IS the most powerful, and contradictions in stories to that are errors- to add to the long list of EU errors.
If you can't find them... then as far as EU continuity is concerned, the issue cannot really be decided, it will be down to opinion.
Meh, Ushgarak. What a narrow-minded access to the topic.
If Lucas didn't want to make the Galactic Empire compareable to the Third Reign in Germany would that eliminate all parallels between them or would you just sit here and say "Because Lucas didn't want to make the GE compareable to the Nazis you can't compare them !" ?
The creators intention doesn't matter here. If I write a book and my intention was to make it better than LotR it can still suck. Now obviously Kevin J. Anderson - no matter if he wanted to do that or not - did make people like Kun, Sadow or Ragnos more powerful than Sidious. And it doesn't matter if he says "No. They are below him." because as far as it only concerns the SW universe they are still more powerful (in terms of force powers) - no matter what Andersons intention was.
Same goes for Lucas. Lucas gave approval to all the EU comics and books. If he wanted to make Sidious the most powerful Sith Lord he should have done that or he shouldn't have approved the comics. He did. Therefor his "intention" doesn't matter. If Sidious doesn't appear to be the most powerful person then he simply isn't the most powerful person.
And by the way you can argue the word "powerful" back and forth as long as you want. Does it refer to force powers ? Or does it refer to overall power ? Obviously Sidous did reign over the entire known Galaxy (or at least the biggest part of it) so he is clearly "more powerful" than Exar Kun or Marka Ragnos. Does that mean he can defeat them in a duel ? I don't think so...
As long as I don't see Sidious destroying planets, instakilling force users or do stuff like that he's weaker than the Ancient Sith Lords. No matter what Anderson, Lucas or Mr. Lightsnake have to say.
If Sidious doesn't appear to be the most powerful person then he simply isn't the most powerful person.
/\ This is what it all comes down to, isn't it? No matter what anyone who actually made the books or movies said.. If one does not appear to be something that he is claimed he is then it is a fact that he isn't.
Undefeatable logic..
1. No, Lucas said that Sidious was faking the lightning part. Which he obviously was. I never claimed he wasn't bested by Windu, just that he was physically overpowered. Mace kill Sidious? Laughable, there's the prophecy against that and Mace left himself open for a force push just so perfectly there. If that fight continued, Mace'd be dead the second Sidious switched to the Force
2. 20 years between the OT? Good lord it was 5 years. At most. Can you prove a damn thing here? No? Good, shut up.
3. According to the Essential Chronology, Palpatine DID have Plageuis's midichlorian ability. As for 'saving people', no word if that's BS or true.
4. More stupid assertions. Come on, what'd Ragnos ever DO? What'd Sadow ever do? What'd Kun ever do that was so powerful? What'd Ulic do as a sith besides screw up left and right? What did Sadow do besides launch a useless war and get his forces totally crushed? They never displayed a BIT of power not inherent in the movies. Not. A. Bit. Some of these so called star destroying? That was due to TECHNOLOGY.
5. When did Lucas NOT make Sidious the most powerful Sith? He can't help it if Ancient Sith fanboys defy logic and evidence continuously. If he doesn't APPEAR to be the most powerful in the movies? So, why can't we use the EU when your ENTIRE argument is EU? Sidious wins by virtue of existing in canon, then.
Above all, here's what the most annoying: I've been insulted constantly but very, very few people have actually tried to debate on the point. Instead it's 'But the Ancient Sith WERE stronger' and no explanation on why. What'd they ever do that was so powerful? Nadd never 'took over a planet' by sheer force, he did some dark side magic andd got hailed as a god by Star Wars' equivalent of primitive tribesman of the middle ages
Sadow was an idiot, and a weakling. He never did anything without technological weaponry, he screwed over the Sith Empire in a day...besides using an electrical weapon in conjunction with gauntlets....well, he never did much, did he?
Marka Ragnos? Cowardly refused to expand the Empire when he should have even among other territories just beyond the Empire, even if the Republic would have trashed them.
Exar Kun? Inept screwup. He failed to have any hold over his men and minions, messed up his own suicide, got outwitted by a group of Padawans and didn't even have any lasting impact on the galaxy, with the exception of one planet....that had zero casualties. And Kun is always bedecked in things to amplify his power. That's pretty much the source of his power, according to Nadd
Revan? Right, what did he do that's NOT hearsay or gameplay? Revan is little more than an ego trip.
Malak? A stupid brute by all accounts. There to be badmouthed and die
Darth Bane? I'll give him some credit, he managed to put the Sith right and realized that having too many Sith Lords spread the Dark Side thin-this is literal too.
We've seen Sidious annihilate an army when he felt like it, consume the life energies of an entire world, destroy a fleet, return from the dead in actual flesh, command Durge....and Durge was known for killing Mandalorians, and Sith and Jedi in Ruusan...and beyond that. He instantly made two trainees into full fledged Dark Jedi who gave the Skywalkers some issues, one of those he imbued matched power with OOD BNAR...And yeah, he's instakilled force users. Arden Lyn ring a bell? She was only one of the first two Dark Lords in the Force Wars...25,000 years old. He killed a group of Jedi without even facing them, he drained the energies from Alderaanian refugees and turned them into mindless slaves. He managed to destroy Luke's best fighters in his weakest state instantly...and he's never even hinted at to use enchancements
Originally posted by overlord
This is what it all comes down to, isn't it? No matter what anyone who actually made the books or movies said.. If one does not appear to be something that he is claimed he is then it is a fact that he isn't.
Undefeatable logic..
Would you buy it if J.R.R Tolkien had said Frodo is more powerful than Gandalf or Sauron ? Yes ? Why ? Because the creator of a world doesn't need any explanations for the things happening in his world ?
First:
An author should be able to express his intention through his work. Anderson made his Sith Lords obviously more powerful than Sidious - at least the Sidious we have seen in the films. Period. Lucas gave his approval to that Sith Lords. Period. So either they were both working against their own intention (huh ?) or they did never think about Sidious as he appears in the movies as being the "most powerful ever".
Second:
There are different methods of analysing fiction than the "Literary" method. In this case the Literary method is not even the best. I could go and argue semantics back and forth by just saying "What does 'powerful' mean ? Force power ? Fighting power ? Amount of influence in the universe ?" You don't have the answer ? OK: Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord ever (greatest amount of influence in the universe) while Ragnos is the most powerful Sith Lord ever (greatest amount of force powers) while Revan is the most powerful Sith Lord ever (greatest military ability)...and so on and so on...
Third:
The point is that Lightsnake simply assumes that there has been no chance in Palpatine's / Sidious' power level, force knowledge and so on in 3 decades (from ROTS to DE) despite the fact that he archieved new knowledge and trained a bunch of force users.
He simply uses statements on DE Sidious to make ROTS Sidious seem more powerful. And that - as I said - is on the same level as saying that NJO Luke = ROTJ Luke. Comments from Anderson or Lucas won't change anything. It might be their intention that Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord ever but he has reached his "peak" in DE and not before.
1. Would Tolkien EVER say that? No? Logical fallacy.
2. Wow, no evidence to how Anderson made his Sith Lords more powerful! For how strong he made his Sith, he and Veitch made Sidious much stronger.
3. Lucas did more than give his approval, he shared his ideas with Veitch and Anderson, one of the few times he was actually interested. He loved Dark Empire and gave copies out to employees for Christmas.
4. Sidious exists in the movies. Ragnos and Kun don't. Sidious wins automatically by your logic.
5. And funny how Sidious's power is specifically referred to as power in the Dark Side. Y'know, Strongest warrior to use the dakr side, mentioned in the ROTS novelization?
6. Proof he's reached his peak in DE. I'm sure being died for several years and alive for an uncomfirmed period of time, when he just recovered from a period of weakness and poor bodies was his incredible power. He had....four years to return, reestablish himself and begin gathering strength. Probably less.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. No, Lucas said that Sidious was faking the lightning part. Which he obviously was. I never claimed he wasn't bested by Windu, just that he was physically overpowered. Mace kill Sidious? Laughable, there's the prophecy against that and Mace left himself open for a force push just so perfectly there. If that fight continued, Mace'd be dead the second Sidious switched to the Force
And watch it again. He said Sidious faked not to have any power left after attacking Mace for the first time. And by the way...Mace could have killed Sidious two time before disarming him so "laughable" is something else...
2. 20 years between the OT? Good lord it was 5 years. At most. Can you prove a damn thing here? No? Good, shut up.
Can you read ? 20 years between PT and OT and there is exactly 19 years between ROTS and ANH. Just in case you didn't notice it. Or have you seen 5 year old Luke Skywalker somewhere in ANH ? I didn't...
3. According to the Essential Chronology, Palpatine DID have Plageuis's midichlorian ability. As for 'saving people', no word if that's BS or true.
According to the Essential Chronology Luke had two Jedi Holocrons in the Academy on Yavin 4 despite the fact that only one exists. Oops. Sidious clearly hadn't Plagueis abilities in ROTS otherwise it would be senseless to tell Anakin that they can learn this power together...
4. More stupid assertions. Come on, what'd Ragnos ever DO? What'd Sadow ever do? What'd Kun ever do that was so powerful? What'd Ulic do as a sith besides screw up left and right? What did Sadow do besides launch a useless war and get his forces totally crushed? They never displayed a BIT of power not inherent in the movies. Not. A. Bit. Some of these so called star destroying? That was due to TECHNOLOGY.
What technology did Kun use to freeze the entire Senate ? What technology did Ragnos use to keep an entire Empire of Sith under his control ? Eh ?
5. When did Lucas NOT make Sidious the most powerful Sith? He can't help it if Ancient Sith fanboys defy logic and evidence continuously. If he doesn't APPEAR to be the most powerful in the movies? So, why can't we use the EU when your ENTIRE argument is EU? Sidious wins by virtue of existing in canon, then.
Have you noticed that this is an EU board ? Have you ? Of course he's the most powerful Sith in the movies. Hard work if you keep in mind that all other Sith shown are his own students. Still ROTS Sidious is not ROTJ Sidious and both are clearly not as powerful as DE Sidious.
30 years of force practice, knowledge gaining and artifact collecting MAKE A DIFFERENCE.
1. "We had the idea that Mace overpowers Sidious and then Sidious exaggerates his weakness to trick Anakin." Nothing about 'after the first lightning bit. And Sidious could have killed MAce about three times during the fight, particularly during that spin. Force Push him out the window or slice at his legs. Blame the choreography
2. Your point here is....what?
3. The power to save people from dying. He never said anything about influencing Midichlorians. And Luke has holocrons on Yavin, yep. Two of them, one of them being Vodo's...you base the idea that one exists on what exactly?
4. You mean a basic Sith Spell to freeze a group of weak minded nobodies? The Jedi there certainly weren't frozen whatsoever. And Ragnos ruling a bunch of idiot beauracrat Sith doesn't impress me much. KAAN led an empire of Sith and he was a weak fool. What'd Ragnos ever really do?
5. Proof he gathered a single artifact. We've seen Sidious through the years and his power certainly isn't too discernable. In fact, his power as well as time with Plageuis is covered in Dark Lord...and I'm sure someone who can hide himself from an entire order of Jedi when standing next to Yoda is weak.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Would Tolkien EVER say that? No? Logical fallacy.
Rate the power of Tom Bombadil compared to Sauron. I'm waiting.
2. Wow, no evidence to how Anderson made his Sith Lords more powerful! For how strong he made his Sith, he and Veitch made Sidious much stronger.
You simply don't get it. I'm not arguing that DE Sidious is more powerful than Malak or Revan or Sadow. He could basically annihilate everything with force storms. The point is that the Sidious we have seen in the movies couldn't have done that. He appears to be less powerful than the Sith Lords that Anderson created and you make NO DIFFERENCE between the movie Sidious and DE Sidious.
3. Lucas did more than give his approval, he shared his ideas with Veitch and Anderson, one of the few times he was actually interested. He loved Dark Empire and gave copies out to employees for Christmas.
Yeah. And he loved the Clone Wars and shared his ideas with the creators of it. I wonder why Mace Windu didn't destroy any battle droid in the Geonosian area in AotC on his own - we have seen in the Clone War cartoons that he's clearly able to do that...
4. Sidious exists in the movies. Ragnos and Kun don't. Sidious wins automatically by your logic.
I have logic. You ignore any kind of logic. Default win for me.
5. And funny how Sidious's power is specifically referred to as power in the Dark Side. Y'know, Strongest warrior to use the dakr side, mentioned in the ROTS novelization?
You know. Never mentioned in the ROTS novelisation. By the way: The same novel that says that Obi-Wan faced ten thousand droids before getting to Grievous. I clearly didn't see them in the movie. Oops. Exegeration maybe ?
6. Proof he's reached his peak in DE. I'm sure being died for several years and alive for an uncomfirmed period of time, when he just recovered from a period of weakness and poor bodies was his incredible power. He had....four years to return, reestablish himself and begin gathering strength. Probably less.
We are talking about force powers. He was still the same being, the same spirit, the same soul. He just became stronger. What you say is basically the same as saying "AotC Anakin must be more powerful than ROTS Anakin because he got his hand cut off in the end of AotC". Logic anybody ?
1. Only when you tell me what TOm Bombadil is. And Sauron was hardly the most powerful Maiar.
2. Proof he couldn't have done that. He certainly does some of it in the prequel era and talks a bit about his power to Vader in Dark Lord...he also manages to mask himself from the entire Jedi order...
3. What was your point here exactly? Yeah, CW is overpowered, we know that.
4. As opposed to 'Sidious never showed he could do it in the movies, so he can't'?
5. Considering Obi-wan never met Sidious....haven't read the novel much have you?
6. Proof he became stronger. Offer some logic, some proof, some ANYTHING. Even if he is, then we';d be comparing Sidious at his peak to the others, which grants him the automatic win...otherwise, in the spirit of fairness it'd be ROTS Sidious vs. Kun after Nadd's little makeover. Or Sadow after sleep on Yavin 4...or old and dying Ragnos...of course since I've seen no evidence to the affirmative of this point...