Sidious - The Debate

1. Like I said: Sidious did the SMART thing

2. Except the guide to technology.

3. Except novelizations are directly behind the movies and can be used to explain things. Take it up with Chee and Sansweet.

4. And who betrayed Sadow exactly? Even before Gav fired on him, his forces were being torn to pieces and the Republic won with minimal casualties. What does a war say about force power either for that matter?

5. Yes, because there was only a trial going on and noone else but Vodo and Sylvar knew about what Kun really was. And the Jedi temple was on OSsus at the time.

6. I love it when people can't back up what they say.

7. You mean when they're looking for a Sith Lord and trying to sense him, they don't sense him when he's standing right beside them? In the thirteen years between ROTS and TPM when they knew the Sith were back because of Maul? And as far as the Jedi on Ossus knew, Ulic was doing things on his own with the Krath and Mandalorians...not once did Ulic claim to be Sith

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Like I said: Sidious did the SMART thing

Like I said: No way to measure his power there.

2. Except the guide to technology.

Let's see. You have a SITH Lord, using SITH magic and SITH alchemy to create a star ships that enables a FORCE user to destroy planets and now you move in and say "Hey ! Just technology !"...

3. Except novelizations are directly behind the movies and can be used to explain things. Take it up with Chee and Sansweet.

You still don't get it, do you ? The novelisation contain interpretation by the author and as we have seen they aren't 100 % exact. Yet I still didn't found the line saying that Sidious was the "greates warrior of the Dark Side ever" but even if it can be found somewhere this is as "true" as saying "Alexander was the greatest tactician in Earth's history".

4. And who betrayed Sadow exactly? Even before Gav fired on him, his forces were being torn to pieces and the Republic won with minimal casualties. What does a war say about force power either for that matter?

What ? The illusions he created were torn to pieces by the Republic and the Republic won so easily that some powerful Jedi had to sacrifice their lives to stop Sadow ?

5. Yes, because there was only a trial going on and noone else but Vodo and Sylvar knew about what Kun really was. And the Jedi temple was on OSsus at the time.

Wrong. The Jedi temple on Coruscant was present before the temple on Ossus. The Order was wider spread in KotoR times before the Ruusan reformation which centralized the Order on Coruscant. Still the temple was present in Kun's times and so I really don't see the point why only four Jedi should be present at Coruscant at this time.

6. I love it when people can't back up what they say.

I know you love yourself. You don't have to tell me.

7. You mean when they're looking for a Sith Lord and trying to sense him, they don't sense him when he's standing right beside them? In the thirteen years between ROTS and TPM when they knew the Sith were back because of Maul? And as far as the Jedi on Ossus knew, Ulic was doing things on his own with the Krath and Mandalorians...not once did Ulic claim to be Sith

Yeah. I love how you ignore Lucas own comment on that issue which Glentract has already given to you. And I love it how you just seem to forget such "little events" like the Freedom Nadd uprising (how many Sith do you need ?) and the fact that Aleema and Satal Keto basically called themselves Sith (at least they were using Sith magic - weren't they ?).

1. Exactly.

2. It may have been used by and with the force, but it's still an aomplification and it's not Sadow just walking out, twitching a finger and a star exploding.

3. Fine, I'll give this one.

4. the only time a Coruscant temple is mentioned is in KOTOR, with no ndication to how long it's been standing. And WHAT powerful Jedi? The only one was Ooroo who destroyed Sadow's entire army on Kirrek with his sacrifice...that was really it. All the other JEdi shown fighting survived. Not really that impressive for Sadow. And as for other Jedi on Coruscant, we see Kun walk in, Ulic identifies him and the Jedi begin taking on his Massassi while Kun fights Vodo.

5. Greatly.

6. Considering:
A. The explanation given for the Dark Side there was Palpatine himself-killing Palpatine balanced the Force again
B. Nadd wasn't a Sith, self admitted. And King Ommin and the NAddists weren't either. Most Naddists didn't even use the Force
C. Aleema and Satal weren't Sith at all. Exar Kun laughed that off and Marka Ragnos completely ignored Aleema when he gave the title to Kun and Ulic

There is no actual proof that killing Sidious would result in balancing the force, btw.

Didn't Lucas say on one DVD commentary that killing him did balance the Force and what it meant to be the Chosen One? That was pretty much fulfilling the prophecy.

I've never heard that. Lucas did give an intresting side in ep3 though when Yoda and Mace began to doubt if Anakin was actually the Chosen One.

The idea is that Anakin went on a detour as Vader, but killing Palpatine was the big thing. Anakin WAS the Chosen One, there's no doubt about that...he just messed up severely

There is no doubt? lol. Both Yoda and Mace did doubt it. Anakin didn't even really kill Palpatine, Han did just as much as Anakin in that case.

Well, technically if killing Sidious makes you the chosen one, then Han Solo, Empayojatos Brand and Anakin are all the chosen ones.

Canonically. Without the EU. Lucas tends to ignore it.

And to us, there is no doubt Anakin is the Chosen One. It's said in too many places. All Yoda wonders is if the prophecy was misread. Mace always doubted Anakin. As far as Lucas is concerned, Anakin is the Chosen One and nothing happened beyond ROTJ

Lucas has actually said before that he enjoys a lot of EU. How would that be ignoring it?

He sure as hell doesn't follow it, let alone count it to his movies

Originally posted by Lightsnake
2. It may have been used by and with the force, but it's still an aomplification and it's not Sadow just walking out, twitching a finger and a star exploding.

Actually he was "waving his hand" (literally) and the star was exploding.

4. the only time a Coruscant temple is mentioned is in KOTOR, with no ndication to how long it's been standing. And WHAT powerful Jedi? The only one was Ooroo who destroyed Sadow's entire army on Kirrek with his sacrifice...that was really it. All the other JEdi shown fighting survived. Not really that impressive for Sadow. And as for other Jedi on Coruscant, we see Kun walk in, Ulic identifies him and the Jedi begin taking on his Massassi while Kun fights Vodo.

First of all the temple is mentioned in different sources and it's said that it's standing there basically since the beginning of the Republic and the Order which would be 25,000 years before ANH. KotoR is an EU source just like the comics are and as long as it isn't contradicted somewhere it's a valid fact.

And by the way: The Massassi were killed by the three other Jedi present ? 😉

6. Considering:
A. The explanation given for the Dark Side there was Palpatine himself-killing Palpatine balanced the Force again
B. Nadd wasn't a Sith, self admitted. And King Ommin and the NAddists weren't either. Most Naddists didn't even use the Force
C. Aleema and Satal weren't Sith at all. Exar Kun laughed that off and Marka Ragnos completely ignored Aleema when he gave the title to Kun and Ulic

A)
The issue is a little more complicated. The "Light Side" is essentially the "balanced" Force. A Dark Sider disturbs the balance. That means: Even if they had killed Sidious in TPM and Maul would have stayed alive the Force would still have been out of balance. Yoda in AotC said that the "Dark Side" was limiting the Jedi's abilities and not the "Dark Lord" although he said that the Dark Lord would know about it. I think saying that Sidious alone would be able to limit the abilities of the entire Jedi order would be given him a little too much credit.

So essentially "bringing balance to the force" means "annihilate the Sith". And that's what Anakin / Vader finally did.

B)
Nadd was a Sith. He just thought that he couldn't be the "Dark Lord" but he visited Korriban (a Sith world) and learned from Sadow (another Sith) and he practiced Sith magic. So I don't see the point why he shouldn't have been a Sith.

C)
Well...again we have people practicing Sith magic and again I don't see the point why they shouldn't count as "Sith". Exar laughed at Aleema because she couldn't match his power (Ulic was the only able to do that) and that's why Ragnos was later chosing Ulic and Exar to become master and apprentice and he ignored Aleema. The basic rule of the Sith Empire was that the strongest should rule. Ulic and Exar were simply the strongest.

1. Actually he was waving his hands as his ship powered up and then the star exploded. Aleema did a lot more than Sadow did, showing it's the ship.

2. Name the sources. And yeah, Kun's massassi entourage was torn to pieces by the Jedi. Sylvar killed them with her bare claws.

3. Thank you...someone else who knows what Balance means...

4. Nadd was never a Sith. he was a wannabe, and Sadow refused him the title. in the TOTJ companion, it said Sadow stopped short of teaching him the real tricks and Nadd killed him in a rage.

5. Exar specifically laughed and told Aleema she was no Sith just before blasting her unconcious. Aleema was also an illusionist, not a Sith. She was a strong illusionist and force user, but she was no Sith. According to the character guide for Ulic she was a wannabe as well

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Actually he was waving his hands as his ship powered up and then the star exploded. Aleema did a lot more than Sadow did, showing it's the ship.

What is this lot more? How can you prove that it was the ship that did it?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
2. Name the sources. And yeah, Kun's massassi entourage was torn to pieces by the Jedi. Sylvar killed them with her bare claws.

And Sidious was killed by a blaster bolt which a weak Jedi like Corran Horn could block with his bare hands even as a padawan. How they died doesn't necessarily mean they are weak.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
3. Thank you...someone else who knows what Balance means...

You do realize that balance could very well be what the NJO Order is. All of the Jedi in NJO times are very reliant on the darkside to accomplish their goals. It is the Unifying force. Destroying darkness doesn't balance the force, uniting the two does.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
4. Nadd was never a Sith. he was a wannabe, and Sadow refused him the title. in the TOTJ companion, it said Sadow stopped short of teaching him the real tricks and Nadd killed him in a rage.

Can you post a scanned image of where it says that?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
5. Exar specifically laughed and told Aleema she was no Sith just before blasting her unconcious. Aleema was also an illusionist, not a Sith. She was a strong illusionist and force user, but she was no Sith. According to the character guide for Ulic she was a wannabe as well

That shows Exars power more then it does Aleema's weakness. Also note that Dark Jedi can become more powerful then Sith, they just don't follow the same philosophy.

1. Oh, because Sadow only said it himself. And Aleema. And Exar Kun. Quote: "This is the ship whose power allowed Naga Sadow to destroy the Denarii."

2. Notice he was currently grabbing at Anakin Solo when Han shot him in the back. And he WANTED his body to be killed so he could possess Anakin.

3. Suddenly the Sith are the only darkness in the Galaxy?

4. No. I have no scanner. If you want, get the TOTJ companion and look inside it.

5. Point out one time aDark Jedi was greater than a Sith, one time. And considering Aleema was a Krath, specifically described as not actual Sith..

If Nadd killed Sadow, then technically that would make Nadd the Dark Lord.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Meh, Ushgarak. What a narrow-minded access to the topic.

If Lucas didn't want to make the Galactic Empire compareable to the Third Reign in Germany would that eliminate all parallels between them or would you just sit here and say "Because Lucas didn't want to make the GE compareable to the Nazis you can't compare them !" ?

The creators intention doesn't matter here. If I write a book and my intention was to make it better than LotR it can still suck. Now obviously Kevin J. Anderson - no matter if he wanted to do that or not - did make people like Kun, Sadow or Ragnos more powerful than Sidious. And it doesn't matter if he says "No. They are below him." because as far as it only concerns the SW universe they are still more powerful (in terms of force powers) - no matter what Andersons intention was.

Same goes for Lucas. Lucas gave approval to all the EU comics and books. If he wanted to make Sidious the most powerful Sith Lord he should have done that or he shouldn't have approved the comics. He did. Therefor his "intention" doesn't matter. If Sidious doesn't appear to be the most powerful person then he simply isn't the most powerful person.

And by the way you can argue the word "powerful" back and forth as long as you want. Does it refer to force powers ? Or does it refer to overall power ? Obviously Sidous did reign over the entire known Galaxy (or at least the biggest part of it) so he is clearly "more powerful" than Exar Kun or Marka Ragnos. Does that mean he can defeat them in a duel ? I don't think so...

As long as I don't see Sidious destroying planets, instakilling force users or do stuff like that he's weaker than the Ancient Sith Lords. No matter what Anderson, Lucas or Mr. Lightsnake have to say.

No. sorry, I totally reject this logic, The creator's intention is vital, all the more so because what is seen and protrayed in these formats is clearly open to interpretation, therefore we need the source of it all to check what the truth behind what we see is.

If we accept that certain formats- like the CW cartoon- sometimes portray stuff that is not so due to stylisitc reasons, then this applies to ALL EU formats- and includes anything we yhaev ever seen any of the Sith Lords do; the Dragonball Z syndrome, as Overlord referred to it as. So all that stuff being produced as evidence of what they did might be no more than stylisitc excess. The intention of the authort puts it all into context.

And your bit about GL approving these things and making changes if he wanted... simply displays total ignorance about the way GL works with these things, and how the EU is left to run. GL wouldn't think twice about the EU making all sorts of assumptions about what the Sith could do beore and then later trample all over them or make it plain that none of this is possible. ALL EU operates on the possibility of contradiction from the main canon sources.

This is not narrow-minded at all. What it is, is to the point.

I will remind people that these boards have a policy about this sort of thing, and opinions will not override GL's stated facts. Sorry, but your attempts to try and ignore the logic and the primacy of fact creators have over their own creations are those of a fool. Creators have 100% final line authority, with no contest. What we see or read must fit that, including the possibility oif error in the material we see. As I have said, the EU has been in error many times, from Splinter onwards.

End of story, as far as I am concerned.

Now, this debate is going in pointless circles. I will close pointless debates.

Do these statements from GL and Anderson exist or not? This is the ONLY way we will get a definitve answer here.

And DG, you are wrong- uniting Light and Dark is a. not possible and b. unbalanced. As stated, GL has confirmed, canonically and undeniably, that the Light Side is Balance, the Dark Side is unbalance. That all there is to it.

*Yawn* Now I have read over 20 pages of this thread and I'm incredibly bored.

All I can say refers to the actual topic of this thread: Yes, there is a lot of proof that Sidious is the most powerful Sith ever, yet I am not happy with it. Yes, GL says its canon blah blah, but fundamentally everything was greater in the past etc. (referring to KOTOR Jedi).

Even if GL says differently, making 3 bad movies just to cash in (The PT) does not denote him much respect against the canon vs. non-canon argument. I believe Revan, Ragnos and Sadow were all greater than Sidious on principle, no thats not fanboyism, thats a genuine interpretation of the SW Universe. If I am given an unbiased impression that there are greater Sith out there than Sidious, yet the creator says Sidious is the most powerful, then theres obviously something wrong.

That's fine, but it's only a personal belief. Officially speaking, GL has the floor, and as far as I am concerned these boards will go with the offiical line as far as resolving questions like this. Your personal opinions are your own to keep.