Malak bested Kavar....that's really it. Oh, by the way, PHYSICALLY being overpowered isn't really a demerit. Especially as Malak probably couldn't hold a candle to Mace as a duelist. Vaapad tends to count for a bit. And when you consider their fight never ended...unless you'd like to argue Darth Maul beat Obi-wan Kenobi?
And Geonosis....well, considering they A. won, B. lost all of the worthless form IV users, it worked out really well. not going after Dooku like they should? I think I saw Coleman Trebor try, Yoda, Anakin and Obi-wan do the same thing...the other Jedi had to deal with things like winning the actual battle. in the AOTC novelization, Yoda directed them to continue the ground duel.
And last I recall, Sidious was vaporized in a reactor core by Anakin and Luke was alive....I'd say Yoda did a pretty damn good job in his estimations. Luke was fighting with the Force itself behind him and he sure as hell beat Sidious in more ways than actual combat.
The KOTOR council deciding to strip the Exile of his power? Exiling such a potential lethal threat? The whole Revan fiasco? At the least the PT era Jedi didn't ignore their responsibilities to the people they'd vowed to protect in the Clone Wars
This is uninformed at best Lightsnake, you have shown bias to the movie characters a lot but I at least figured you would be informed about the older stuff.
Malak could very likely defeat Mace, he's a lightsaber prodigy just like Mace, but unlike Mace he has learned from the Dark Side and has fought many Jedi. Kavar is hardly the only Jedi he beat, you don't become a legendary lightsaber duellist when all you fight is Kavar, and even so Kavar is seen as the greatest fighter of the order.
And all that stuff on Geonosis was a misserable failure, before the droids showed up they could have taken Dooku out, and Trebor did charge at Dooku but Mace jumped down, they jumped into the arena completely surrounded, and getting Jedi killed was never there idea, it was a foolish and tactless move to say the least, it was a huge mistake.
And Luke had luck, Yoda could not have known it would end like that, he relied on other forces to do the job for him, not on himself or on the skills of somebody. So many things could have gone wrong. It was luck working not Yoda his brilliant plan, because it wasn't brilliant. It may have been there last hope but it was a foolish hope.
The Kotor council also did not strip the Exile of his power, Malachor V did that for him. Listen to Kreia, Zez Kai and Kavar next time. What Revan fiasco? I fail to see the fiasco here? Him turning to the Dark Side and then proceeding to kill half the order, what did Anakin do again? Sending him out to kill Malak, well we don't know how that turned out so it means nothing, we do know that at worst he at least delayed the fall of the Republic, a good thing if you ask me.
And if you would have paid attention you would know that the Jedi Order of that time had a reason to not go to war. A threat hiding in the darkness, perhaps they were right with their decision, we will never know, but I could hardly call it foolish. We don't know how it will end up yet, so you can hardly judge their decisions. The one's that we can tell however at least bought the republic some time.
Vaapad only works against dark force users VERY well and MAlak'd never have seen it. Malak beat the best swordsman the Order'd ever known minus Yoda and Dooku? Laughable, learn about your older stuff yourself, nothing ever indicates that KOTOR's era is better than the PT's. KOTOR is a legendary retelling, THAT'S how they summed up a lot of the errors (Nar Shadaa, Korriban, etc.)
Yoda was still right. Period. BEFORE the Droids showed up? And yeah, they screwed up. They still loved Dooku, though and wanted to believe the best of him.
And they exiled the Exile, remember?
post more later, gotta run
Vaapad does not work better against the Dark Side, it borders on the edge of the Dark Side its not more powerful against the Dark Side, you probably got that from Wikipedia it was a big issue here some time ago, but there is absolutely nothing to suggest its true, I'm sure Faunus can tell you that.
Malak also was better then the best in the order, as he was described. Was Yoda in the order at that time? No, he wasn't think next time. Dooku can also be debated about.
Yoda was still right? What the hell kind of argument is that? He was right after he already made the mistake, telling them to continue the fight means nothing if they could have done everything they needed to do before the fight started.
So having faith in Dooku is not an incredibly stupid thing to do, for some reason but exiling the exile is?
And exiling him meant nothing, he already lost his force connection then he was already a nothing. They exiled him because he betrayed the order and went against them and then still said he did the right thing. The Exile himself admits to not knowing why he returned but joining the Jedi Order again was not the reason. Whatever his reason was nothing would have changed if the Jedi made a different decision, and if you would have paid attention you would have realised that keeping the Exile around was too dangerous as they could have been fighting a war on two fronts if he would have stayed.
Vaapad only works against dark force users VERY well and MAlak'd never have seen it. Malak beat the best swordsman the Order'd ever known minus Yoda and Dooku? Laughable, learn about your older stuff yourself, nothing ever indicates that KOTOR's era is better than the PT's. KOTOR is a legendary retelling, THAT'S how they summed up a lot of the errors (Nar Shadaa, Korriban, etc.)
Yoda was still right. Period. BEFORE the Droids showed up? And yeah, they screwed up, I'll admit that. They still loved Dooku, though and wanted to believe the best of him.
And they exiled the Exile, remember? And the Revan fiasco: The entire way they handled the Mandalorian Wars was horrible. Perhaps EXPLAINING this stuff to Revan would have worked out a lot better than hiding it....and don't get me started with Revan's 'conquer the Galaxy to save it' thing
Ignore above post
If anybody wants to read the reply to the rest of his post read my previous pots Anyways
"And the Revan fiasco: The entire way they handled the Mandalorian Wars was horrible. Perhaps EXPLAINING this stuff to Revan would have worked out a lot better than hiding it....and don't get me started with Revan's 'conquer the Galaxy to save it' thing"
The way they handled the Mandelorian wars was by telling the Jedi that they had a reason to stop, they didn't know what yet but they had to wait and see. Revan didn't want to wait and see he didn't want to wait and see what the council might find out, many lives were lost and it took him to long. The outer rim was being destroyed and the Jedi were preaching patience and waiting, they explained all they knew. Revan refused to accept their reasons and went against the council.
People turn against the Jedi Council all the time, turning Dark instead of staying light. Dooku turned to the Dark Side, Anakin did, and a few others but those are most famous. Why are they not fiasco's? How did the Kotor Council go wrong and the PT council not?
And Just for kicks whats wrong with the conquering the galaxy to save it thing? It could very well be true, its why Dooku did what he did.
1. "We have a reason! No, you can't know the reason! Just let millions of people die while we have our reason!" BRILLIANT idea. They never MENTIONED the diea of another threat.
2. People don't turn to the Dark side all the time. Dooku left the Order. He turned dark after that. Anakin turned dark before any Jedi even knew. Onl Obi-wan had a HINT of his issues.
3. You'll notice Dooku was doing it politically and unlike Revan had no illusions about a 'greater threat.' There's a bit of an issue with depelting half your forces and galactic resources in a war, then trying to become a savior to everyone who's lost because of you being a treacherous scum insteading of using a hero status where people'd listen to you
Originally posted by Fishy
People turn against the Jedi Council all the time, turning Dark instead of staying light. By the way I am gay. Dooku turned to the Dark Side, Anakin did, and a few others but those are most famous. Why are they not fiasco's? How did the Kotor Council go wrong and the PT council not?
I think it is because the more famous examples for the PT council turned to the dark side because of external factors (Count Dooku was greatly angered by the death of Jinn and he was always on edge as well, Anakin was manipulated by Palpatine and feared losing Padme). It is clear from the movies that the PT jedi masters were great teachers and very wise. Whereas KOTOR jedi masters were clearly bad teachers. This is shown especially with the way they treat the Exile.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. "We have a reason! No, you can't know the reason! Just let millions of people die while we have our reason!" BRILLIANT idea. They never MENTIONED the diea of another threat.2. People don't turn to the Dark side all the time. Dooku left the Order. He turned dark after that. Anakin turned dark before any Jedi even knew. Onl Obi-wan had a HINT of his issues.
3. You'll notice Dooku was doing it politically and unlike Revan had no illusions about a 'greater threat.' There's a bit of an issue with depelting half your forces and galactic resources in a war, then trying to become a savior to everyone who's lost because of you being a treacherous scum insteading of using a hero status where people'd listen to you
1. They told Revan everything they knew, it wasn't much... They just told him to wait a bit longer. Revan simply ignored that for his own greater good.
2.) And they turned to the Dark Side all the time during Kotor? Well okay they did then they did 50 years earlier, but it was hardly people that turned all the time. The PT era also didn't allow massive turning because there wasn't a strong and clear Dark Side threat that was recruiting Jedi to his cause.
3.) Revan did have illusions of a greater threat, its why he left after Kotor, the Jedi Council was clearly right about their believes, what those things are we don't know but there was a greater threat, his reasons for conquering the galaxy were also political.
As a war hero he could have never united the republic into a strong and powerful army, he couldn't have gotten the Jedi and the senate behind him easily, especially if they wouldn't want a war, which they probably wouldn't.
And I wouldn't really say that he became a tyrant, he may have been a Sith but at least he kept the republic infrastructure in tact, if he would really have been a brute the republic would have fallen already.
@ Kingman,
And Revan had no external factors to turn to the Dark Side, Malak had none? They would not have turned without external factors, the way the council treated the Exile? What did they do? They exiled somebody who should have been exiled, and like I already said it was their only real choice. They had their reasons, some believed he deserved to know. Others believed that he could still be following Revan and telling him would be far to dangerous.
The Kotor Council was not stupid.
1. And how effective they were. They basically told the entire order just to 'wait and observe'r ather than follow their own rules.
2. A massive army of Jedi going Darkside should count for something...
3. Revan left, abandoning his friends who could've been of great help, the council who'd have been of great help, the Mandalorians who'd have been of great help....that's not too bright. His war hero status could have rallied numerous peoples and worlds and peoples behind him....it's a bit brighter than depleting half the galaxy's resources in a war to make him a despised tyrant-infastructure or no, he was killing loads of people and established himself as a traitor, as well as sucking the lives out of his own men. Just because he kept an infrastructure intact doesn't mean it wasn't a bad idea
1. Thats all they knew, of course it didn't turn out to be effective, but the council telling Anakin he wasn't allowed to love wasn't very effective either now was it?
2. Yeah, but like I said different times different things happen, it hardly makes that council suck.
3. Which Revan are you complaining about now? The one that left after the Mandelorian wars or the one that left after Kotor? They had no influeince on the second one... The one that left after the Mandelorian wars did take his friends and a large army with him. Now I don't know the reason he didn't take them with them after Kotor, neither do you. But Revan had his reasons, we don't know how those will pay off, but we'll probably find out in Kotor III.
And yeah Revan probably wanted power he wanted to conquer the galaxy, so did Anakin. He just did it in a different way again thats not the council his fault. But whatever the case Revan could still have been fighting to stop something else, maybe he thought he could never work with the republic or the Jedi Coucnil again, maybe he really believed that they were worthless fools that could not help him, or maybe he just wanted them to die to gain power, whatever the case it still doesn't make the Kotor Council stupid, and it still doesn't make Sidious more powerful then Malak.
1. It was a common proceedure...it wasn't as if they knew what an emotional loose cannon Anakin was. Hell, they certainly didn't know about him'n Padme
2. If the council had honored their duty to the galaxy and the Force, that would never have happened...
3. I was talking about Revan post KOTOR. But, yes, Revan's entire strategems were flawed.
Thing is, there's little-if anything to support the old era of Jedi being greater than the new era. in Palpatine's age, the Sith had evolved, become far more powerful, new techniques in the force and lightsaber dueling and Palpatine is undoubtedly smarter than Malak. By ROTS or the OT, he's still an undisputed Dark Side master and if there's one thing the Jedi of his era have on Malak: Speed. Malak's strong, but he's never really shown himself to such a high plateau. The only thing that puts Malak high up is the 'Ancient Jedi>The new Jedi' stereotype. In a time of people like Dooku, Mace and Yoda...of the fully evolved, pinnacle of the Sith...I honestly don't see Malak winning this. If Palpatine is fast and good enough to kill Kit Fisto, saesee Tiin- a TELEPATH no less and agen Kolar....Kit and Agen being some of the finest warriors the order ever produced and strong enough tos quare off with Yoda, one of, if not the strongest master the Order'd ever known....I'll give him Mace, but there were a lot of factors there: MAce was physically stronger, the fight had not ended yet, Sidious's motives are dubious there.
I'm gonna be civil in debating now, sorry about the earlier rows
1. No they didn't know about him and Padmé, the thing is the Jedi Council of that time had no reason to believe that Revan would go Dark Side either. It is a flaw in judgement, but it happened in both situations all the same. It doesn't make one better then the other.
2. If the council had honooured their duty they would have walked right into a trap or a greater threat like they feared. Perhaps their insight created Revan but it could have saved many lives, one could wonder what would have happened if the Jedi Council refused to go up against the seperatist and would have instead let Palpatine fight his war alone, perhaps patience would have better instead of war in that case, because now they walked straight into their own deaths.
3. Well then some of the made statements make no sense, and the council had no influeince on him at all, why he left alone I do not know, but he had his reasons hopefully we'll find out what in Kotor III until that time I refuse to judge them.
Thing is there are plenty of things to support a change in power, new techniques is bullshit if anything knowledge from both the Jedi and the Sith were lost overtime, after Kotor the Jedi almost had no knowledge left, thats thousands of years of knowledge just gone, only what the few that survived knew remained, and after Miraklu that wasn't a lot. The Sith also refuse to give all their knowledge to their apprentices and so the knowledge of Sith weakens with every apprentice.
Speed is also unsupported who is to say Malak is slow, when we see Sidious kill three Jedi Masters one would easily come to the conclusion that they are slow. Malak has shown a lot of things that would rank him higher then Sidious especially when you talk about combat. And you are right now turning that very thing around you realise that right, there are more things to suggest that Jedi and Sith got weaker then the other way around yet still you claim that they are more powerful.
all those Jedi Masters that were killed could not even light a candle to Mace let alone stand Yoda.
and yes perhaps there were other factors to Mace defeating Sidious in a fight, perhaps Sidious could have defeated Mace if the situation was different but the thing is we don't know that for sure. We do know however that Malak is no slouch with the force that he could very well launch his own Dark Side attacks at Sidious and that this fight will be decided by a lightsaber, a fight in which Sidious really does not stand a chance.