Emperor Palpatine versus Darth Malak

1. When a similar situation led to the Sith War just a generation ago...such a vicious war would lead to darkness, not to mention Revan's brutal, coldhearted tactics.

2. Revan certainly avoided this trap. And as for the Clone Wars...the Seperatists were being led by a Sith, both inside and out. The Jedi had to fight, to spare suffering and stop Dooku.

3. I was more going after Revan there.

4. The Miraluka weren't anywhere near gone after KOTOR and there's also very little to support the loss of techniques. Thanks to the holocrons and still living masters, things were well passed on. PAlpatine supposedly studied Sith holocrons thoroughly and Yoda had access to Vodo's. It is totally incorrect to say the Sith don't give their knowledge to every apprentice. Palpatine/Plageuis thing....we don't know if Plageuis could do all he said he could. Palpatine learned how to influence midichlorians from him, but saving people from dying? Saving PEOPLE HE LOVED from dying? A blatant lie. Bane made it a point of teaching everything to the apprentice. Bane's line got stronger with every apprentice. He taught Zannah literally everything he knew, she developed things of her own, taught all that to HER apprentice...and so on and so forth. each apprentice had the strenght of the master with a bit more. This was in the Dark Side sourcebook, I believe.
Kit, Agen and Saesee...we've seen them in action and they are anything but slow. Agen's skill put Mace on his guard and Kit was so fast he could hardly be seen to move to Obi-wan. There is nothing to support the Sith got weaker...in fact, there is everything to support it was the opposite. the ROTS novelization sums it up completely and for the EU, that is a perfectly valid source. And in KOTOR's combat, we do see Malak fight...he's hardly fast. And decided with a saber? No way, Sidious would outsmart him there...or destroy him with the darkside. ROTS era Sidious can tear apart a ship with the force or kill a small army with lightning...without even exerting himself. And who says Malak's supreme with a saber?

See, in Ruusan, the Jedi improved drastically: They had to. They kept that strength until the time of the PT when Yoda realized the Sith had always been changing and evolving. In there, Yoda is described as the most powerful enemy the darkness had ever known. There is never a hint to support the Jedi declined in strength. Hell, the Jedi in Kun's age were sure stronger than, say....Empress Teta's age.. The Jedi in Ruusan were stronger than that. They came back from a near genocide after a thousand brutal years of Sith rule and wiped the Sith out to one army.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. When a similar situation led to the Sith War just a generation ago...such a vicious war would lead to darkness, not to mention Revan's brutal, coldhearted tactics.

And how does that excuse the PT Council or make the Kotor Council worse?

2. Revan certainly avoided this trap. And as for the Clone Wars...the Seperatists were being led by a Sith, both inside and out. The Jedi had to fight, to spare suffering and stop Dooku.

Well there wasn't a trap, but Revan did go after the greater threat in the end, so really he didn't stop that. And thats exactly the point if the Jedi Council would have taken time and if it would have informed itself better instead of rushing into a war to save one Jedi then perhaps they could have ended this and perhaps they could have stopped Sidious. Instead they died and Sidious ruled the galaxy for a very long time before he was finally destroyed. It didn't really turn out for the best, unlike what the Kotor Council did, for as far as we can tell the Republic hasn't fallen.

3. I was more going after Revan there.

What does Revan have to do with the so called idiocy of the Kotor council? So far all I can gather from all of this is that you think the Kotor council is stupid but you ignore the stupidity of the PT era council which made a lot mistakes as wel.

4. The Miraluka weren't anywhere near gone after KOTOR and there's also very little to support the loss of techniques. Thanks to the holocrons and still living masters, things were well passed on.

"Yes she holds the [b]last of the Jedi teachings its good that she survived[/b] Zez Kai talking about Kreia.

"Much has been lost in recent wars" - The disciple talking about Jedi Knowledge

Thats during Kotor II... Atris holds the last of the Jedi teachings, now sure some of it could have survived but apparantly most of it has been lost, thats 20.000+ years of history down the drain. After that Atris turned to the Dark Side and died... A lot of knowledge was lost just in one war...

PAlpatine supposedly studied Sith holocrons thoroughly and Yoda had access to Vodo's.[QUOTE]

A lot is not all

[QUOTE] It is totally incorrect to say the Sith don't give their knowledge to every apprentice.

Its not really in their ideals, to make themselves weaker and strengthen others its not their style to do so, so why would they?

Palpatine/Plageuis thing....we don't know if Plageuis could do all he said he could. Palpatine learned how to influence midichlorians from him, but saving people from dying? Saving PEOPLE HE LOVED from dying? A blatant lie. Bane made it a point of teaching everything to the apprentice. Bane's line got stronger with every apprentice. He taught Zannah literally everything he knew, she developed things of her own, taught all that to HER apprentice...and so on and so forth. each apprentice had the strenght of the master with a bit more. This was in the Dark Side sourcebook, I believe.

Sidious himself admitted he hadn't learned everything yet.

Kit, Agen and Saesee...we've seen them in action and they are anything but slow. Agen's skill put Mace on his guard and Kit was so fast he could hardly be seen to move to Obi-wan.

Then how come he died in one attack and Mace defeated Sidious? Seriously those guys were nothing compared to Mace and no matter what you say the way they died is just phathetic.

There is nothing to support the Sith got weaker...in fact, there is everything to support it was the opposite. the ROTS novelization sums it up completely and for the EU, that is a perfectly valid source.

Actually the movie novelizations are not cannon they contradict the movie in a lot of things... So that doesn't count.

And in KOTOR's combat, we do see Malak fight...he's hardly fast. And decided with a saber? No way, Sidious would outsmart him there...or destroy him with the darkside.

Sidious would outsmart him? Malak was no idiot, he was a tactless brute yes, he wasn't a military genius but he was a brilliant fighter and would not be outsmarted in a fight he isn't stupid.

and defeat him with the dark side, you still haven't shown us anything that would make ROTS Sidious more powerful then Malak with the force, especially not powerful enough to destroy him with the force.

ROTS era Sidious can tear apart a ship with the force or kill a small army with lightning...without even exerting himself. And who says Malak's supreme with a saber? [/B]

DE Sidious and ROTS Sidious are two completely different people, and who says so? Ohh hmm just about everybody in Kotor I and II.

1. The Old Council knew what Revan was doing and how and why. They could easily have interceded for him.

2. At the time, it was stopping Dooku that interested them and hopefully getting him to talk about Darth Sidious. Revan went about the other threat completely the wrong way and for all we know: Failed miserably.

3. The PT era mistakes are far more excusable considering noone knew what Anakin was up to and they had the Sith right on their doorstep-Palpatine.

4. Continuity errors then. Would Zaz be meaning before or after he pulls a saber on Kreia, recognizing her as Sith? Atris's well of info will be utilized by the Handmaiden later. Don't ask me how the information survived but it did, especially with the old holocrons being held by the new Jedi. Yoda had Vodo's like I said.

5. No, Palpatine said "We'll learn the secret of bringing people from the dead and saving them" That was more than likely a lie. He knew literally everything else.

6. The DS sorucebook says on the issue that the Sith masters knew they'd one day die and needed the Sith to continue strong until the day they could topple the Republic and Jedi. Sidious wasn't exactly mr. conventional though.

7. I'm sorry, but from what we've seen of those three, they were VERY impressive. Sidious was just that good, and that's all there is to it. Like I said, the Mace Sidious thing is very dubious and they never reached a steady conclusion. If the fight actively continued, Sidious would've switched tactics.

8. No, in the EU they DO count and Chee himself pointed out things in the novelization to explain questions. The policy is, if the pasaage in question contradicts nothing, it's in the EU.

9. Who would the Dark Side favor...the guy who took apart the Republic and Jedi Order or an upstart like Malak? Malak may not be stupid, but neither was the entirety of the Jedi Order and Republic and look how that ended. Palpatine is simply far smarter than Malak. And as for the Dark Side, Sidious is a supreme master of it by ROTS.

10. Those feats were done by ROTS Sidious, actually. And Malak's skill with a saber is hardly mentioned. Like I said, the deaths of those three were to show how good Sidious was. Want to argue Agen, Saesee and Kit's feats?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
So....he became a vicious brutal tyrant rather than use his position as a war hero to rally believers to his banners and started a costly war?
GENIUS!

Prove that he was a brutal tyrant.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. When a similar situation led to the Sith War just a generation ago...such a vicious war would lead to darkness, not to mention Revan's brutal, coldhearted tactics.

2. Revan certainly avoided this trap. And as for the Clone Wars...the Seperatists were being led by a Sith, both inside and out. The Jedi had to fight, to spare suffering and stop Dooku.

3. I was more going after Revan there.

4. The Miraluka weren't anywhere near gone after KOTOR and there's also very little to support the loss of techniques. Thanks to the holocrons and still living masters, things were well passed on. PAlpatine supposedly studied Sith holocrons thoroughly and Yoda had access to Vodo's. It is totally incorrect to say the Sith don't give their knowledge to every apprentice. Palpatine/Plageuis thing....we don't know if Plageuis could do all he said he could. Palpatine learned how to influence midichlorians from him, but saving people from dying? Saving PEOPLE HE LOVED from dying? A blatant lie. Bane made it a point of teaching everything to the apprentice. Bane's line got stronger with every apprentice. He taught Zannah literally everything he knew, she developed things of her own, taught all that to HER apprentice...and so on and so forth. each apprentice had the strenght of the master with a bit more. This was in the Dark Side sourcebook, I believe.
Kit, Agen and Saesee...we've seen them in action and they are anything but slow. Agen's skill put Mace on his guard and Kit was so fast he could hardly be seen to move to Obi-wan. There is nothing to support the Sith got weaker...in fact, there is everything to support it was the opposite. the ROTS novelization sums it up completely and for the EU, that is a perfectly valid source. And in KOTOR's combat, we do see Malak fight...he's hardly fast. And decided with a saber? No way, Sidious would outsmart him there...or destroy him with the darkside. ROTS era Sidious can tear apart a ship with the force or kill a small army with lightning...without even exerting himself. And who says Malak's supreme with a saber?

Vader was truly the last of the New Order Sith. He WOULD have been the most powerful, but he was crippled. Sidious was the most powerful because Vader was crippled. Vader was the last Sith because he destroyed Sidious and turned back to the Light, fulfilling the prophecy.

That's my understanding. That might add some proof that Sidious was the most powerful Sith Lord.

Originally posted by D_CP
Prove that he was a brutal tyrant.

Putting monsters like Karath, Uthar and Malak in any position of power

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. The Old Council knew what Revan was doing and how and why. They could easily have interceded for him.

They knew he went off to fight the Mandelorians, thats all they knew, they disagreed but killing him was still the wrong thing to do. They couldn't do anything against him, when he left to the unknown regions they knew nothing when he returned at the front of an invasion fleet it was already to late. Without betraying the Jedi code they could never have stopped him.

2. At the time, it was stopping Dooku that interested them and hopefully getting him to talk about Darth Sidious. Revan went about the other threat completely the wrong way and for all we know: Failed miserably.

Or succeeded, we already know that the PT Jedi failed misserably, they died afterall. Revan can very well still save the republic the Jedi and stop the unknown threat. You don't know, so at this moment the Kotor Jedi Council still have a chance, while the PT Jedi already failed.

3. The PT era mistakes are far more excusable considering noone knew what Anakin was up to and they had the Sith right on their doorstep-Palpatine.

Why? Because the Kotor Council wasn't allowed to stop Revan? They probably talked to him a lot or tried to it didn't work. The PT Council at least a few of them suspected Anakin, but did you see Mace or Yoda stop him. Did you see anybody try to draw him closer to the Jedi Order? No, instead they send him towards Palpatine somebody that had an above normal influeince on him, they should realise that, especially with Obi Wan in the council, there is no excuse for there foolishness.

4. Continuity errors then. Would Zaz be meaning before or after he pulls a saber on Kreia, recognizing her as Sith? Atris's well of info will be utilized by the Handmaiden later. Don't ask me how the information survived but it did, especially with the old holocrons being held by the new Jedi. Yoda had Vodo's like I said.

Argh I meant to say Atris... And I never said none of the information survived, but most of it had been lost. That is clear by what they say, some would have survived but a lot of knowledge had been lost in those wars.

5. No, Palpatine said "We'll learn the secret of bringing people from the dead and saving them" That was more than likely a lie. He knew literally everything else.

And that is more likely then not a lie, Could Vader do everything Sidious could? Did he learn everything Sidious could teach him? Of course not, why not? Becuase it would make Sidious weaker and Vader stronger and the Sith still only care about themselves it would be a foolish thing to make yourself weaker and your apprentice more powerful.

6. The DS sorucebook says on the issue that the Sith masters knew they'd one day die and needed the Sith to continue strong until the day they could topple the Republic and Jedi. Sidious wasn't exactly mr. conventional though.

Meaning what exactly? How does that proof anything?

7. I'm sorry, but from what we've seen of those three, they were VERY impressive. Sidious was just that good, and that's all there is to it. Like I said, the Mace Sidious thing is very dubious and they never reached a steady conclusion. If the fight actively continued, Sidious would've switched tactics.

Yes i'm sure he would have switched tactics when he didn't have a lightsaber, it was going to be almost impossible for him to still defeat Mace, face it he lost that battle.

8. No, in the EU they DO count and Chee himself pointed out things in the novelization to explain questions. The policy is, if the pasaage in question contradicts nothing, it's in the EU.

I'm not even going to argue this with you, its to freaking boring. Do a search for some older threads about this, will you?

9. Who would the Dark Side favor...the guy who took apart the Republic and Jedi Order or an upstart like Malak? Malak may not be stupid, but neither was the entirety of the Jedi Order and Republic and look how that ended. Palpatine is simply far smarter than Malak. And as for the Dark Side, Sidious is a supreme master of it by ROTS.

So now Palpatine has to win because the Dark Side likes him more? What bullshit is that? The Dark Side will favour none, thats a stupid reason to enter in a debate, and Palpatine was a smarter politician then Malak, he was far from the smarter fighter if he was he wouldn't have lost from Mace, when he was still more powerful then Mace. And Sidious is not the supreme Master thats just your bias for Sidious talking.

10. Those feats were done by ROTS Sidious, actually. And Malak's skill with a saber is hardly mentioned. Like I said, the deaths of those three were to show how good Sidious was. Want to argue Agen, Saesee and Kit's feats?

Hardly mentioned, he is described as a freaking lightsaber prodigy and the greatest front line soldier in the war, and during Kotor itself everybody see's him as the most powerful person in existance. And yes actually those Jedi were nothing compared to Mace, they would have died easily against people like Revan, Bastila Kavar. They just stood there while Sidious was slaughtering them, and then Mace moved up and stopped Sidious. Those guys were average they could never stand up to the greats. Malak on the other hand is one of those...

1. As opposed to confining him?
2. Last I checked, the KOTOR council died a lot sooner than the PT council, whose leader lasted long enough to train the new hope of the galaxy.
3. Who suspected him at all? And tried to talk to Revan when he's leading a veritable army? Noone KNEW what Anakin was doing with Padme, only Obi-wan had a hint and he tried his damn hardestadt in the Clone Wars
4. Well, a lot of the info survived. Thanks to those holocrons Yoda had, I'd say, or the Handmaiden.
5. Sidious was a very special case. Since he'd discovered body swapping he never planned to be replaced. He gave Vader a lot of Sith secrets though, and Vader learned more on Korriban.
6. This shows they taught their apprentice literally everything and in many cases the apprentice learned more on the side.
7. The battle never ended, 1 and Sidious did switch tactics and it won him the war. In a force battle? If Sidious was seriously about that lightning? Mace is street pizza.
8. Please try to contradict official words on the matter.
9. Mace is one of the best swordsmen the Order'd ever known, period. And actually, my 'bias' comes from the DS sourcebook. He even had Arden Lyn, one of the first two Dark Jedi serving him at his heel for a while.
10. HAH! Those Jedi were 'three of the best fighters the Order had ever known.' That's just your bias talking. Kit didn't just 'stand there'. It was bad photography and this was even said. Sidious is slowed down for the viewer, or the filming and choreography was screwed up. And Malak the strongest in existence? Malak one of the greats? Please, he's a foot note for the Dark Side. He's dismissed left and right in the KOTOR sequel. And unless he'd last a second against Thon or Vodo...

1. How could they arrest the hero of the Republic army's? Even at the start of the war it would have been political suicide, doing something like that would make all the Jedi that wanted to follow Revan turn against the Order and probably most of the Republic too, taking away their only hope. It would hav ebeen suicide to do so.

2. Perhaps all the council members are dead we don't know, we do know however that the Kotor Council was killed by something else then Revan, Kreia afterall at that time was acting completely on her own, Revan is not at fault. And the PT council died in ROTS along with the entire Jedi Order, Yoda and Obi Wan survived, but the Jedi Order and the council were still destroyed. They didn't even teach Luke the way they taught other Jedi, they just taught him to make him able to fight. The Jedi Order was destroyed.

3. Mace Windu never liked the kid, Obi Wan suspected something and yet he did nothing, he was a member of the council, Yoda felt the conflict in him during AOTC, yet he did nothing. They could have done more then the Kotor Council could have done.

5. Okay so Sidious was a special case, you still haven't explained why Sith would go against their very code, weaken themselves and strengthen others? They are their first priority. Besides Plagius probably didn't learn Sidious everything either, at least there is nothing to show he did, except for your own assumption.

6. No, it doesn't say that they taught their apprentices everything tha twould still be against the Sith way.

7. We are talking about the battle not the war, Sidious never had the power to take out Mace through the force when he was down, he should have done it at the start of the fight, the only thing he was faking was his lack of power, not that he couldn't destroy Mace with the force. Sidious had lost, if Anakin wouldn't have showed up he would have died.

8. Do a search for a thread about it

9. The PT order yes, and Malak was of the later order, so that means well nothing. And the Dark Side would not favour Sidious in a fight, thats a stupid thing to say. People don't win because the force likes them more.

10. Those guys would be screwed fighting most Jedi and Sith Lords of older times, simple as that. Sidious killing them is not impressive and he still lost from Mace, he isn't a lightsaber god you know.

You know debating with you is actually kinda boring, because you still haven't given me one real reason why Sidious would beat Malak.

We know Malak has great lightsaber skills, from Vrook, Vandar, Zez Kai, Bastila, Bandon and Kavar. And then i'm not evening mentioning the one's that probably know but I can't be sure off, these guys however all saw him fight or fought him. They should know.

We know he is powerful with the force, more powerful then most of the Jedi Order powerful enough to control the Star Forge that absorbed anybody that was to weak to do it, ex Jedi high Council members were to weak to do it. We know he can shoot lightning as well, we know he defeated a lot of Jedi in lightsaber combat and that he could easily choke two Jedi shoot them with lightning and throw a lightsaber at the other at the same time. The guy has power with the force and is the second greatest lightsaber fighter of that time.

How could Sidious who couldn't even overpower Mace with the force and couldn't destroy him with a lightsaber possibly stand a chance against that?

1. Y'know, perhaps they could do something before he went off to war as opposed to 'sit down, do nothing and jeer.
2. And there's a plus for Palpy. And it seems Yoda and Obi-wan's training resulted in Luke becoming the savior of the galaxy. Great job.
3. Mace's personal dislike of Anakin meant something? Yoda did quite a bit to help him and so did Obi-wan. A'Sharad Hett helped absolve him of the rage from his mother's death. Anakin never confessed anything about Padme and noone knew about it.
4. I've explained it: They knew the survival of the order and strengthening it was more important than them individually, Bane practically quoted that.
5. against the Sith way, or what you think is the Sith way? The DS sourcebook disagrees with you heavily, especially as Bane's order had quite a few new rules.
6. Not according to 'Purge' when Anakin asks Palpatine how he was taken by Mace when he could ahve destroyed him via the Force-citing how Palpatine blasted back with more pwoer than he was before. Would have died? He'd have won if the fight continued either way. If MAce took him in as he wanted to, what would've happened? How did Palpatine go off on him with lightning greater than he did BEFORE his face melted?
7. Translation: You can't misprove official sources. I'm inclined to believe Sansweet and Chee over you.
8. You mean like the dark Side didn't favor him during the PT era?
9. Oh, Palpatine wipes out armies with force lightning, tears apart ships with the Force-in the ROTS ERA. Mace was only the third best swordsman the order'd produced in nearly ten thousand years. And no other Jedi tRIED to harness the Star Forge, no biggie. And Yoda himself declares Sidious to be the mightiest warrior the Darkness had produced and the Jedi'd faced. In Force power, Malak would be torn apart. Or Palpatine would simply use Vaapad and tear Malak to pieces.

1. How? he went of to war without telling them most likely, its not like he walked into the council and said, "hey i'm leaving to fight a war that you don't want me, and don't try to stop me because now is your only real chance to do it and well I don't want to be stopped." He isn't an idiot you know. the counciil could do nothing.

2. And all of a sudden a plus for Palpy is good for the PT council? We were debating the idiocy of the PT council and something stupid and their failure is all of a sudden not a failure because of Palpatine? If thats how these things work then wow... And yeah it did end up in that, but not with the Jedi Order in tact which was what we were debating now wasn't it?

3. Nobody knew Revan was going to leave either, yet still we know that the signs were there for Anakin. They did nothing, you can make up excuses all you want fact is they didn't stop it, which makes them wrong...

4. Well show me the quote then, because this is the first time I have ever heard of that, and you have been known to lie on several other occasions to proof yourself right.

5. So the order was all of a sudden more important then the live of one person? Strange then how Sidious never learned Anakin all when he should have realised he could have died somehow sometime.

6. Does it matter? Lucas said that Mace overpowered Sidious, the only thing he was faking was the Oh I'm so weak part... He couldn't have defeated Mace, unless you want to go against Lucas now.

7. Translation, i'm to lazy to go into another debate about this when it has been done a million times, do a search.

8. You mean like that matters in a fight? For crying out load we are talking about who is more powerful. And the Dark Side sure didn't help Anakin against Obi Wan when the Dark Side had almost alreadyd won the war. So its just bullshit that, that will decide the fight.

9. When did he do that exactly? He couldn't even overpower Mace with force lightning... And Mace the third best in nearly 10.000 years? Proof it.

And actually a lot of others tried to control the Star Forge, all the powerful one's that remained after Malak his dead. But they got absorbed by the thing because they were to weak.

"Many have tried to control the Star forge, all of them have failed. They were devoured their life drained from them." - Bastila Shan. This includes a Jedi High Council Member that joined Revan and Malak in the war, that survived Revan his return, according to the disciple.

1. Were they REALLY dumb enough to beleive he was leaving with a massive force for no other reason BUT war?
2. Palpatine's skill, not their deficiency
3. What signs for Anakin? Just because WE knew...
4. "There should be two: One to embody the power and one to crave it, and when the first has taught the second all he knows, the second becomes the first and the first becomes nothing."
5. Have we established Sidious was a special case and itnended to live forever yet?
6. Not my falt you misinterpret him: He said Palpatine was faking from the moment Anakin came in. "First Mace overpowers Sidious, then Sidious exagerrates his weakness when Anakin comes in." And it's been agreed upon massively that he faked the lightning part completely, unless you want to say he somehow got a second wind.
7 There is no debate. Novelizations and scripts are sure as hell continuity where they don't contradict.
8. Tell it to Zannah and Bane.
9. Dark Rendevous. Mace is declared the third best when Yoda fights Dooku. And couldn;t overpower Mace? Give me a break, he was fkaing that part entirely. Lucas only referred to the kick. The 'physically overpowered, THEN Anakin comes in.' otherwise...how did he use MORE power than he had before he was supposedly beaten?
10. Other Sith, then. Most likely weaklings. Moreover, what supports Malak, a tactless brute who'd been a Sith for several years taking on Palpatine? He could control the Star Forge, so? Not gonna help him in the fight. Could he destroy ships with the force or use Force lightning to destroy armies? Does he drain the energy from Byss or outlast death itself? Does he know Vaapad or the ability to change his fighting style to trick an opponent?

1. Well when he left after the Mandelorian wars they couldn't stop him, and everybody believed they were going after the remaining Mandelorians. To think a hero would turn against them... it was unheard off, kinda like with Dooku at first. Only more so.

And the first time he left, he left alone.

2. Thats kinda stupid now isn't it? When the PT council does something wrong its Palpatine his skill when the Kotor Council does something wrong they are idiots, why is not Revan his skill? Whats the difference? This is just bias.

3. Oh I don't know, his love for Padmé was clear in AOTC, he was felt slaughtering those sand people, Mace never trusted him but didn't keep an eye out for him. There are plenty of things out there.

4. And why would the first actively seek for that? Honestly...

5. No, because plenty of Sith probably wanted that, didn't stop them.

6. He never managed to overpower Mace with lightning he never would have, when his face was melting he said "and Mace basically overpowers him here" then he starts faking, whats there not to get?

7. Just nevermind i'm not getting into this now.

8. Tell it to Anakin and for some reason it doesn't make Palpatine more powerful and this is a huge assumption because we have no idea who the force likes more if the force is even capable of such emotions. So complete bullshit.

9. Third best of the Order, not of the order of all time.

10. Most likely weaklings? What kind of stupid reply is that? Anakin didn't kill anybody of power they were most likely weaklings... Come on, they were Jedi High Council members, well ex cause they turned dark. They were the greatest warriors the sith had after a long time of war. Two wars were the Jedi fought at the front line against Melee soldiers and the Sith later on against the Jedi. There is nothing to even suggest they are weak. Nobody like Coleman Trebor on the Jedi Council in that time.

And again DE Sidious stuff, we aren't debating DE Sidious. DE Sidious would destroy Malak. And no Malak does not know Vaapad because it didn't exist, does that matter. He is a master fighter and has shown the ability to destroy well pretty much everybody that went up against him. And stop saying tactless brute already that only refers to him as a general, not as a fighter. As a fighter he is described as nothing else but legendary, so he could very well be able to change his fighting style.

And even if he isn't changing fighting style's won't help Sidious he isn't anywhere near the lightsaber duellist Malak is.

1. Yes. They could have restrained him before he left after numerous debates and arguments...

2. Because Revan was right there and Palpatine was manipulating him. and the KOTOR council ignored their sacred duty.

3. Who ever saw him alone with Padme? And he confessed his murder of the Tuskens to A'Sharad who was the only Jedi who could understand...and 'faint ripple' in the Force is hardly instant cause for blame.
4. Maybe because it was followed religiously by the Sith down to Plageuis until Palpatine who was the first to break tradition and the like up to Bane?
5. How many actually could? Not a single one in Bane's order. Dooku said they'd accepted one day their apprentices would finish them. Hell, often the Apprentice died.
6. Explain how Palpatine strikes back with stronger lightning and SW.com, discussing the very subject said 'It's obvious Sidious was faking the force lightning' part.
7. Thank you for accepting it.
8. Force sure as hell backed the Skywalker twins. And PAlpatine during the prequels.
9. Third best the entire order had EVER produced. Yes, yes that seems so ambiguous.
10. Would you get it that all I have listed is ROTS era Sidious?
11. Noone like Coleman Trebor in that era? Have you even READ the comics? Ever heard of Crado or Satal Keto? How about Gav Daragon or Ludo Kressh? How about Zona Luka?
12. Wow, let's just forget Sidious's era had lightsaber styles, techniques and abilityies developed since Ruusan that Malak's era didn't have. Interesting how Malak was only ever seen to fight twice and only once conclusively. Something more than hearsay, please. and like I said: The feats I've listed haven't been DE era Sidious

http://starwars.wikicities.com/wiki/Mandalore_the_Ultimate

Mandalore the Ultimate.

1. Who says those debates and arguments where ever there? Who says Revan didn't say he believed them or would follow them. Besides locking him up would have been stupid, he was a hero amongst Jedi even before he left to join the Mandelorian wars.

2. Palpatine was right there too, Revan could have left without warning, and I have already explained that the Kotor Council had a reason for waiting, and the Kotor era Jedi were not the sworn protectors of the Republic. They had no sacred duty to safe the republic.

3. No but perhaps it was all a reason for research, they never did it. Pointing out the fault in one council but ignoring the fault the other made is stupid, both were wrong both made mistakes. Neither one of them could have really been prevented and they weren't.

4. How do you know that? Do we even know about any of the other Sith until Palps save one or two?

5. Your point being? Just because nobody could doesn't mean nobody tried, Sidious failed in his mission too he still tried.

6. Quote on the last one please..

7. I never did...

8. It never backed Anakin, it didn't stop Palpatine from losing from Mace. Force backing up somebody is a foolish argument and it didn't stop Palps from dying/being defeated in ROTJ either. So really even if it would be a good argument it could turn around in a second.

9. And thats just bullshit because there is no proof of it.

10. Would you get it that, that has nothing to do with point 10. Really if you can't defeat it don't argue it with something off topic.

11. Were any of them from that Era? Would you compare Kressh to Trebor?

12. Oh come on, man.. Its new years now i'll continue this post tomorrow. But one thing stop being so biased... Really you accept things from one side that you refuse to accept from the other side... its crap.

1. You?
2. Right. Which ignored their sworn duty and got them all killed in the end.
3. Fine, good sum up of the scenario.
4. Bane, Zannah, Millenial, Plageuis, Ruin...yep, we know of quite a bit.
5. He wiped out the Jedi. I'd say he succeeded in the entire goal of the Sith order
6. "Even though the force lightning scene is an obvious fake for Anakin, the saber duel has been an intense subject of debate." May be off a bit, but that's the gist. Feel free to ask about it on SW.com, though
7. Either argue it or concede it.
8. The Force was certainly backing the Skywalkers in ROTJ. And no matter how you slice the Mace fight-STILL no explanation to how Mace supposedly beat him at the lightning segment when he strikes back viciously seconds later with mroe power than the last time. And how you see the ghost of a smile on his face while his eyes flick to Anakin. And the self satisfied smirk before he zaps Mace...
9. Dark Rendevous. ROTS novelization. In print.
10. You mean 'Keep saying 'it's not DE Sidious' and ignore how the feats lsited are NOT DE Sidious?
11. In lack of brains, oh yeah. and Crado, Satal Keto especially...even if the stubbornness of Mace, the whininess of AOTC Anakin and the worthlesness of Coleman Trebor were made into one Jedi, it'd be something like Crado.
12. Oh, no offense, but look who's talking on the bias bit.anyways, ahve a happy new year. I don't bear you any malice for for the record. We're both exceptionally hardheaded on this topic anyways. If it's ok with you, can we continue this via IM? Both my addresses are in my profile

1. Actually no, I never mentioned numerous debates... And even if they were there, how would you explain looking up a charismatic young Jedi that has done nothing wrong? Try explaining that to the other Jedi.

2. Again had their reasons, Revan went after that reason so we know there was definitly something there just not what, and hmm what sworn duty they didn't have it. Read my post better next time will you?

3. That still leaves a lot to be desired, proof that they taught their apprentices everything? Oh wait you can't.

5. I was talking about immortality... Not taking over the republic.

6. Last I heard the only weak part was when he said he was so weak because he knew he couldn't overcome Mace with lightning. I'll check it though.

7. Just do a search please, this is getting boring.

8. And it stopped backing Sidious, the force if it really can be used as an argument in a fight can apparently change oppinions and start thinking different things liking different people, so really it means nothing. And wouldn't you be happy zapping one of your most hated enemy's to death? I'd probably smile, especially if I was a Sith Lord.

9. Oh yeah, strange never heard that before. Didn't even see it when I read it. Mace was one of the best of that time, but ever? They couldn't even know. Besides its not like they kept rank lists, first best second best. Oh wait this guy is good maybe he should become second...

10. And that still doesn't haven't anything to do with the points I made two posts ago.

11. And that still wasn't during Kotor.

12. Nah sometimes these things can get heated but I never or at least try to never start disliking somebody becuase of this, and I would continue it through IM's but I only have MSN 😛

Also in Kotor all the lightsaber style's existed, see Kotor II. Thats only five years later, its impossible that all those styles were developed in 5 years really impossible, let alone stand mastered too. Vaapad was not, but Vaapad is still a bit like Juyo only better. The essence of the style would probably still be recognized.

And Sidious still lost a lightsaber fight from Mace, who was very good to say the least but he isn't great with a lightsaber, Mace had several chances to kill him in the fight but never did. Malak who fought for most of his life, would not hesitate like that.