Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
My point is, that its not relevant whether or not the woman had been drinking if a rape occurs. Operative word being IF.
It is relevant, in two ways.
In one sense, someone intoxicated to an extreme degree cannot actually give consent.
In another, which I think Whirly is getting at, being under the influence of alcohol, having sex, and then later claiming rape does nothing for the credibility of the accuser.
While this isn't ideal, it is a fact.
Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
that's not what anyone has said.
Yeah, she does that. Don't mind her. She just runs a mile when she's been countered.
Originally posted by Zarathustra
I'm sorry: I must have missed the part where the stats showed that women were dressed like "curb-dwellers" and became "Dangerously intoxicated". All I read was that alcohol had been a factor. I'm fairly certain that's just what it says, and you're reading all that other information into it. Women were drinking so they're crying rape. Women were drinking so they must have been "dangerously intoxicated" and dressed like whores.
Intoxication is intoxication. If you're intoxicated to the point where you are no longer able to defend or be responsible for yourself, regardless of if it's dangerously so or not, then that's irresponsible. Because it's the opposite of responsible (irresponsible).
I never said the stats showed any of that, the point I made (and that others have made) is that rape allegations made by females who were/are drunk, aren't necessarily concrete are they? No. Moreover, if a woman dresses provocatively and does get drunk around men to an irresponsible level, then whilst she absolutely does not DESERVE harm, she isn't exactly doing her best to prevent it, so responsibility and blame does rest on her shoulders also.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Intoxication is intoxication. If you're intoxicated to the point where you are no longer able to defend or be responsible for yourself, regardless of if it's dangerously so or not, then that's irresponsible. Because it's the opposite of responsible (irresponsible).I never said the stats showed any of that, the point I made (and that others have made) is that rape allegations made by females who were/are drunk, aren't necessarily concrete are they? No. Moreover, if a woman dresses provocatively and does get drunk around men to an irresponsible level, then whilst she absolutely does not DESERVE harm, she isn't exactly doing her best to prevent it, so responsibility and blame does rest on her shoulders also.
-AC
AC all defense barristers would use your argument and probably win because sometimes it happens, you're right imo.
Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
It is relevant, in two ways.In one sense, someone intoxicated to an extreme degree cannot actually give consent.
In another, which I think Whirly is getting at, being under the influence of alcohol, having sex, and then later claiming rape does nothing for the credibility of the accuser.
While this isn't ideal, it is a fact.
exactly VVD
The critical point being missed is that nobody is saying women deserve to be raped or are at total fault.
That said, if you dress provocatively and then get irresponsibly intoxicated or influenced by foreign means, then you aren't exactly trying to prevent it. So nobody is blaming the woman for the man's actions, but for her own.
People keep either A) Missing that point or B) Missing it on purpose.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
The critical point being missed is that nobody is saying women deserve to be raped or are at total fault.That said, if you dress provocatively and then get irresponsibly intoxicated or influenced by foreign means, then you aren't exactly trying to prevent it. So nobody is blaming the woman for the man's actions, but for her own.
People keep either A) Missing that point or B) Missing it on purpose.
-AC
No - I agree with you totally on this, I think VVD does as well.
Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
It is relevant, in two ways.In one sense, someone intoxicated to an extreme degree cannot actually give consent.
In another, which I think Whirly is getting at, being under the influence of alcohol, having sex, and then later claiming rape does nothing for the credibility of the accuser.
While this isn't ideal, it is a fact.
" Operative word being IF"
I am one of THE biggest supporters of the fact that there are a ton of women out there that cry rape under false pretenses, for attention or for revenge etc. And I believe these women should be prosecuted to the fullest extent the law allows.
And AC get over yourself already. You really labor under the impression that you are all that don't you? LMAO 😆
There is a HUGE difference between CHOOSING not to argue with a person you think is IGNORANT and running away from an argument. You in my opinion fall into the first category therefore I CHOOSE not to argue with you BECAUSE I think you are simply ignorant as all get out.
Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
VVD you directly quoted me when you posted this reply and yet you missed my last sentence which CLEARLY SAIDI am one of THE biggest supporters of the fact that there are a ton of women out there that cry rape under false pretenses, for attention or for revenge etc. ANd these women should be prosecuted to the fullest extent the law allows.
And AC get over yourself already. You really labor under the impression that you are all that don't you? LMAO 😆
There is a HUGE difference between CHOOSING not to argue with a person you think is IGNORANT and running away from an argument. You in my opinion fall into the first category therefore I CHOOSE not to argue with you BECAUSE I think you are simply ignorant as all get out.
So you result to insulting people because you couldn't beat them back? For shame.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Intoxication is intoxication. If you're intoxicated to the point where you are no longer able to defend or be responsible for yourself, regardless of if it's dangerously so or not, then that's irresponsible. Because it's the opposite of responsible (irresponsible).I never said the stats showed any of that, the point I made (and that others have made) is that rape allegations made by females who were/are drunk, aren't necessarily concrete are they? No. Moreover, if a woman dresses provocatively and does get drunk around men to an irresponsible level, then whilst she absolutely does not DESERVE harm, she isn't exactly doing her best to prevent it, so responsibility and blame does rest on her shoulders also.
-AC
Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
VVD you directly quoted me when you posted this reply and yet you missed my last sentence which CLEARLY SAID
I did see the 'if', and I was referring to instances where a rape takes place.
If a woman has been drinking and is too intoxicated to give consent, then the drinking is relevant because it has prevented her giving consent.
If she is indeed raped, and had been drinking, her credibility will be scrutinised in court. This is the other reason it is relevant (in actual cases of rape).
Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
I understand that, and as I said, while it may be brought up in court and even argued, it does not in anyway in my opinion(which last time I checked, I was allowed to have, and it isnt right or wrong, just my opinion) lessen the severity of the crime or place blame on the victim.
This is true, but I'm not disputing it.
Although let's not get back into the whole opinion/fact shenanigans of bygone threads...
Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
And AC get over yourself already. You really labor under the impression that you are all that don't you? LMAO 😆
There is a HUGE difference between CHOOSING not to argue with a person you think is IGNORANT and running away from an argument. You in my opinion fall into the first category therefore I CHOOSE not to argue with you BECAUSE I think you are simply ignorant as all get out.
You evidently care a lot more than I do, and I do believe you need to get over me. Sorry. Let's be relevant for a bit:
Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
I understand that, and as I said, while it may be brought up in court and even argued, it does not in anyway in my opinion(which last time I checked, I was allowed to have, and it isnt right or wrong, just my opinion) lessen the severity of the crime or place blame on the victim.
So if a girl makes a rape allegation and has been revealed to have been intoxicated as the rape took place, you don't believe that it subtracts credibility from her claim? Her putting herself in a position where rape is easier? Now don't get it twisted, I'm not saying the woman has no right to get drunk. As VVD said before, this isn't ideal or good, but it is fact. If you put yourself in a position where you are more of an easy rape target, then it diminishes the credibility of your allegation.
Originally posted by Zarathustra
Intoxication is intoxication? One beer or fifteen have vastly different effects on a human being. The big thing here is that your entire position is based on "IF". Whirly started this whole discussion with the FACT that one third of women who made rape allegations had been drinking. That doesn't mean that she was "no longer able to defend herself or be responsible for herself": you're injecting that possibility into the discussion.
Am I? Or are you doing that? It's the latter. I made the completely independent point that women intoxicated to levels where they cannot defend themselves, out amongst men, aren't exactly doing their best to keep their safety. You chose to connect that with the point Whirly made. I'm not insinuating that because they've been drinking they aren't all able to defend themselves. My point in connection with THAT notion is that a lot of people say things they don't mean or aren't sure of when intoxicated. Don't twist my words please.
Originally posted by Zarathustra
All we can know is that she's been drinking: maybe she's quite capable of making valid decisions and being responsible for herself. As you put it yourself: You never said that the stats showed any of that. That's what I find a bit shocking: this discussion begins with some very reasonable facts which cause a problem for law enforcement and it's suddenly blown up into something that has no concrete basis in the evidence. Now, the 13 percent fit into your category, no doubt, and I don't argue that alcohol should be avoided to ensure one's own safety (Hell, I don't think it's safe for males to drink too much either), but your comment blow the actual information out of proportion. Your arguments, as Whirly keeps pointing out, might win a court case, but that's only if your hypothetical situation fits the facts of that case... we have no numbers on how often that is true, so I believe discussion should be limited to facts, not conjecture.
Yeah, that's pretty and everything, but YOUR argument there is based on something I never actually said.
I never actually said that every woman drinking has lost control of herself. I made one independent point and ONE point connected to Whirly's. You crossed the wrong wires.
So let's recap...
My independent point is this: I made the completely independent point that women intoxicated to levels where they cannot defend themselves, out amongst men, aren't exactly doing their best to keep their safety.
Right.
My point in connection with the alcohol claim is this: A lot of people say things they don't mean or aren't sure of when intoxicated.
The idea of a messageboard is to read the messages. If you're unsure of what I mean, ask. Don't assume.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
As VVD said before, this isn't ideal or good, but it is fact. If you put yourself in a position where you are more of an easy rape target, then it diminishes the credibility of your allegation.
i strongly disagree AC. first off (correct me VVD if im wrong) i think he was speaking objectively on how the courts typically handle such a case.
anyway, i think it depends more on circumstance. speaking objectively, many cases of date rape do lose credibility in court under certain circumstances. of coarse the most obvious "oops i was raped" scenario (hat tip to backfire) and also in cases where there was actual rape, but a woman who was intoxicated perhaps planned to sleep with a man but then wanted to back out, and rape ensues. in this case, she was just plain raped, but unfortunately the circumstances are way too cloudy to make the charge stick.
thats why women need to just be careful. not a matter of right and wrong, but just what is.
anyway, i think it depends more on circumstance. speaking objectively, many cases of date rape do lose credibility in court under certain circumstances. of coarse the most obvious "oops i was raped" scenario (hat tip to backfire) and also in cases where there was actual rape, but a woman who was intoxicated perhaps planned to sleep with a man but then wanted to back out, and rape ensues. in this case, she was just plain raped, but unfortunately the circumstances are way too cloudy to make the charge stick.thats why women need to just be careful. not a matter of right and wrong, but just what is.
True, true. It highly unfortunate that one of the most serever crimes is also one of the most tricky to deal with, especially when it comes to areas like date rape, or where a girl might have been consenting to a point, but then changed her mind and said no, but things still went ahead.
However, I would have thought, in context, that the intoxication level of the victim in question would possible have judges prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt. After all, if a girl is in an advanced state of intoxication then logically her abilities to both make decisions and resist unwanted attentions are vastly reduced - especially depending on the accused's level of intoxication, in seems quite easy to believe that in such a case she may have been taken advantage of (a faulty generalisation yes, cases such as these should be dealt with case by case.)
And in a way I agree with the "provocation" situation. Now, I do think the way the world is that is can be dangerous to dress some ways, to drink excessively in certain environments, unfortunate, but that's the way it is. Safety first and all that, though I don't think it's in any way a defense for a rapist, and the girl (or guy, it happens), the victim, bare little, or no fault, if they truly are victims. They aren't to blame for the stupid, antisocial behavior of members of society who do such things, not in the least, blame rests solely with the attacker. BUT the fact is that such vile characters do exist, so it would be best, for safety sake, to minimise the likelihood of such attacks.
Originally posted by PVS
i strongly disagree AC. first off (correct me VVD if im wrong) i think he was speaking objectively on how the courts typically handle such a case.anyway, i think it depends more on circumstance. speaking objectively, many cases of date rape do lose credibility in court under certain circumstances. of coarse the most obvious "oops i was raped" scenario (hat tip to backfire) and also in cases where there was actual rape, but a woman who was intoxicated perhaps planned to sleep with a man but then wanted to back out, and rape ensues. in this case, she was just plain raped, but unfortunately the circumstances are way too cloudy to make the charge stick.
thats why women need to just be careful. not a matter of right and wrong, but just what is.
Well despite him making a point about something else, what I said was correct: "If you put yourself in a position where you are more of an easy rape target, then it diminishes the credibility of your allegation."
Exactly though, women need to be careful. If you're not careful...and you don't take steps to ensure your safety...then as I've been saying, some of the blame does rest on you.
-AC
Originally posted by Hit_and_Miss
has anyone seen the dave chappelle sketch about the sex contract??How about that???
You and your 1 night stand have to sign a form stating that the sex is concented....
Wasn't the sex contract the sketch wheree the guy could't bring it? And in the end he throws the condom in the garbage yelling "Kobe" ....was a long time ago...might be wrong.