The Ancient Sith Empire vs. The Yuuzhan Vong

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
DN3, Glentract. The very last battle.

That is what I'm referring to. Raynar threw Luke against the wall and a blast helemt split in half when his head hit the wall. Luke would have had a shattered skull if he hadn't be wearing the helmet. They were obviously near Luke in power since everyone wanted him to bring backup.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
You said Ragnos would defeat Luke, and then claim others are using unfounded assumptions when they argue otherwise.

"Nah, NJO Luke wouldn't be able to take Ragnos. . . "

Because they can read other threads to see that Ragnos would take NJO Luke. I'm not going to repost the same arguments in every single thread pertaining to that character. Evidence has been shown that Ragnos would defeat Luke. Logical, sound evidence. Nothing of the sort has been shown in Luke's favor. They need to back up their claim because mine is well supported.

^Perhaps it would help if you could link to a thread where this "logical, sound" evidence is posted. After searching around a bit, all I've seen is people constantly saying Ragnos>Sadow thus Ragnos>Luke. It makes no sense.

Ragnos: Outwitted by a padawan/knight.
Luke: Canonically the strongest force user. Vader would have lost his arm to Luke if not for the suit. Luke DIDN'T bring backup and he never had any trouble with Raynar and Lomi. In fact, he held back a helluva lot since he was reluctant to kill them. He brought armor because it was practical. If I forget an imperative part of physical defense and I'm shot in the back, is the other guy a better fighter?

And what's Ragnos done even in Luke's ballpark?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Ragnos: Outwitted by a padawan/knight.
Luke: Canonically the strongest force user. Vader would have lost his arm to Luke if not for the suit. Luke DIDN'T bring backup and he never had any trouble with Raynar and Lomi. In fact, he held back a helluva lot since he was reluctant to kill them. He brought armor because it was practical. If I forget an imperative part of physical defense and I'm shot in the back, is the other guy a better fighter?

And what's Ragnos done even in Luke's ballpark?

Ragnos lost because the body he possesed couldn't take his power and started breaking down, similar to what happened to Sidious' Clones, except that Sidious' broke down because of genetic tampering, while his was from his overbearing force presence.

WFT? Luke didn't bring back up in DN? He had 40 Platoons of Yuuxhan Vong Hunter Droids with him. That's a freakin army. Also note that he went full out on Lomi and was overpowered by Raynar at least once. If it hadn't been for his helmet, his skull would have been shattered by the wall when Raynar force pushed him.

Ragnos was stated as THE Dark Lord of the Sith. He was the most powerful person out of a species of demi-gods and even though they hated him, they still feared him and dared not challenge him, even when he was on his death bed. (Emphasis is the authors, not mine.)

Also note that Exar Kun, a guy who shook the ground with his footsteps and ripped apart Jedi Masters, feared Ragnos even when Ragnos was a spirit. Seeing as spirits get weaker over time, it is reasonable to believe that Ragnos by Sidious' time was weaker then Exar or Sidious. Also note that even as a spirit, Ragnos, or one of the people who feared him, was more perceptive then Sidious as they new about Anakin, but Sidious did not.

Where does this stuff about Luke being canonically the strongest ever come into play? Luke may very well be that later in his life(assuming he lives to 120 or something) but right now he is not.

LS, Luke wasn't shot in the back when he forgot the armor. He was overpowered. You example isn't related.

Also note that knowledge is lost overtime. Ragnos had more to learn from and more time to learn it.

Ragnos's servants were seen as a group of incompetent screw ups. Whenever a Sith Lord met a Jedi knight in his army, the Sith Lord died. The Jedi we saw fighting them suffered a few scars at worst.

Exar shook the ground? When was this exactly? Ripped apart JEdi masters? If you mean 'killed one master after a hard battle, killed an ancient Jedi master with a SITH GAUNTLET that wasn't his own power' and have his guards blindside Ood....well, Exar only ever defeated and killed one Jedi master...not altogether that impressive for Mr 'Makes the Ground Shake." And feared Ragnos? He saw him ONCE and commented on him once ("I've seen his remains on Korriban." Then Ragnos marked him and Ulic, that was the last Exar saw of Marka. And you'll notice that since Palpatine was trapped ina dying body and the spirits were connected DIRECTLY TO THE FORCE....geez, that's not exactly a misdemeanor there. And Ragnos lost. Tavion never 'broke down', plain and simple.
And knowledge ain't lost too much in Star Wars.

And 'overpowered?' So, Kun was overpowered by Sylvar and Vodo? See, Luke DID take a helmet because he knew of the danger and bested Lomi and Raynar on his own, while holding himself back supremely. He just twitched his hand twice and killed one of the heads of the Nightsisters.

And right now Luke's not the strongest? Not according to the NJO sourcebook.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
That is what I'm referring to. Raynar threw Luke against the wall and a blast helemt split in half when his head hit the wall. Luke would have had a shattered skull if he hadn't be wearing the helmet. They were obviously near Luke in power since everyone wanted him to bring backup.

Yep. And that was one part of the battle. But by the end, Luke had crushed Lomi Plo's knee, disarmed Thul, slammed him into a wall, among other things. And then, in the final move, he clamly chops Lomi Plo into four pieces with a twitch of his lightsaber.

And do you recall the part where Luke matches Thul's Force push by immobilizing himself with the Force. Keep in mind that Raynar had the combined potential and power of the joined Hive. Luke is far, far above both Raynar and Lomi Plo.

Because they can read other threads to see that Ragnos would take NJO Luke. I'm not going to repost the same arguments in every single thread pertaining to that character. Evidence has been shown that Ragnos would defeat Luke. Logical, sound evidence. Nothing of the sort has been shown in Luke's favor. They need to back up their claim because mine is well supported.

Actually, they can't. All you have to go on with Ragnos are assumptions, and while Illustrious and Janus have managed -- through logic, reasoning, and common sense -- to establish that Ragnos would be a force to be reckoned with, there's nothing to say that he would, without a doubt, annihilate Luke.

Faunus you seem like a smart guy, there's something in the philosophy forum I think you should read and comment on.

Anyone remember when Luke killed Welk? That was badass incarnate

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Ragnos's servants were seen as a group of incompetent screw ups. Whenever a Sith Lord met a Jedi knight in his army, the Sith Lord died. The Jedi we saw fighting them suffered a few scars at worst.

Eh ? What are you talking about ?

Exar shook the ground? When was this exactly? Ripped apart JEdi masters? If you mean 'killed one master after a hard battle, killed an ancient Jedi master with a SITH GAUNTLET that wasn't his own power' and have his guards blindside Ood....well, Exar only ever defeated and killed one Jedi master...not altogether that impressive for Mr 'Makes the Ground Shake."

I wonder why you keep ignoring the little detail that all the nice "Dark Side Sith items pwning people and planets" have to come from somewhere and "somewhere" in this case is always the Ancient Sith Empire. And Ragnos was leading the Sith Empire in "it's golden age", "it's high point" and was "the most powerful" of them all. So if people less powerful than Ragnos were able create stuff that simply instakills Jedi Masters, and create force techniques able to instakill Jedi Masters (demonstrated by Kreia in KotoR 2 - again knowledge coming from the Ancient Sith) what do you think Ragnos would be able to do with all his nice Sith Magic toys ?

And feared Ragnos? He saw him ONCE and commented on him once ("I've seen his remains on Korriban." Then Ragnos marked him and Ulic, that was the last Exar saw of Marka. And you'll notice that since Palpatine was trapped ina dying body and the spirits were connected DIRECTLY TO THE FORCE....geez, that's not exactly a misdemeanor there. And Ragnos lost. Tavion never 'broke down', plain and simple.
And knowledge ain't lost too much in Star Wars.

Let's use a little bit of logic here.
Since we have the nice concept of midi-chlorians available which determine the amount of "force power" (or force potential) a person can have it's really easy. Ragnos was the most powerful being the Ancient Sith Empire had seen in 20,000 years. Tavion was nothing special at all. Now the power of the Ragnos (or his spirit) was posessing Tavion's body. Now you can choose: Either Ragnos wouldn't have been able to transfer his entire power into Tavion OR Tavion would have been "overcharged" with Dark Side powers. It doesn't really matter. Whatever Jaden faced was not the "living Ragnos" but instead only a part of Ragnos power...

Spirits connected directly to the force ? That makes you omniscient ? I didn't have the impression that Obi-Wan, Yoda, Anakin (Skywalker), Qu Rahn and so on were "omniscient" at all when the appeared as "force ghosts"...

And knowledge ain't lost too much in Star Wars ? I guess you haved missed the destruction of Ossus, the destruction of Malachor V and other events like that. Actually it's quite impossible that no knowledge would get lost over a time period of 5,000 years.

Again I wonder why you're discussing NJO Luke VS Ragnos again. This thread is Ancient Sith Empire vs Yuuzhan Vong. As far as I get it the "Ancient Sith Empire" would be 800 generations of Sith Lords, Dark Lords, other "Sith" (meaning force users) and basically every creator of Sith "technology" and Dark Side abilities that was present. That are roughly:
16,800 Sith Lords (20 Lords were present at Ragnos funeral + 1 Dark Lord -> 21 people per generation)
Millions of lower force users (since the Sith Lords just were the most powerful)
Billions of servants.

Now if you have every person at hand that ever lived in the Ancient Sith Empire it doesn't matter if Sadow built his ship or somebody else did it - the creator will be there meaning they could built more of them. And they could create more nasty items like armulets, sith swords, those "instakill gauntlets" and so on.

Finally you drop all that people and stuff on the Yuuzhan Vong. Well...I don't think that Ragnos would curbstomp NJO Luke but I don't think that NJO Luke, Jacen and Jaina are more powerful than several millions of force users with several thousands of them being as powerful as Sadow, Kressh or Simus either. And even in case the YV's can be affected by the force directly (at least Luke took out one of the slayers using the force) the Sith and the Massasi seem to be quite muscular fighters and throwing the cores of stars at their fleets or simply detonate stars / star systems would do some nice damage not even thinking about hundrets of Sith Lords boarding their ships or entering their HQ.

I don't think that the Yuuzhan Vong would be able to take this...not if it's the entire Ancient Sith Empire. If you just take one generation of Sith they still would be able to do at least some considerable damage if not even win against the YV.

Wow, Nai just owned us YV supporters. But how many years did the Ancient Sith exist?

Dude try being a bit more precise and to the point instead of waffling on. You write so much b.s. that its time consuming to reply to your post. And lots of what you are saying are just assumptions.

Originally posted by kingkman
Dude try being a bit more precise and to the point instead of waffling on. You write so much b.s. that its time consuming to reply to your post. And lots of what you are saying are just assumptions.

Logic is fundamental in debating this shit, try to use some.

Sorry who are you? Was I talking to you jackass?

You think i don't use logic huh, you want a 1 on 1 with me, i'll kick your ass. *****.

Originally posted by kingkman
You think i don't use logic huh, you want a 1 on 1 with me, i'll kick your ass. *****.

It's more effective to the reader if you star th "i" in the word b*tch.

O.K. You go.

Is it my turn, o.k. People wouldn't think you're such a geek if you diidn't put "Nexus" under your location.

Not quoting Aristotle would help to.

1. What I'm talking about is easy, Bor: Not a single Jedi fighting a Sith lord in the Hyperspace War mano a mano suffered anything more than a scar
2. Well, Ragnos would be able to do...nothing more than make the Vong crack up, considering those force techniques don't work on Vong and the Sith couldn't be able to find them through the Force. And unless the seriously outnumbered Sith can afford to vaporize half their territory to dent the Vong. Ragnos's empire stagnated completely and fell apart upon his death, half in part to his incompetence.
3. It was still Ragnos's mind and spirit. And if he knows those dark side techniques, well that would've been a nice time to use them. Every other time someone's spirit appeared in someone else's body, no flaws...and Revan the strongest in 20,000 years? Ignoring Ragnos, Exar Kun, Arca Jeth, Ulic Qel-Droma, Tott Doneeta, Vodo Siosk-Baas, Thon...

4. That's possibly because Anakin and Yoda appeared once in wordless scenes as Force ghosts and Vergere seemed omniscient when she was a ghost to Jacen. OBi-wan was also deliberately concealing things from Luke...the Dark Woman appeared quite omniscient when she appeared as a spirit...and a funny thing about knowledge is it tends to resurface. Luke certainly got everything from Ossus thanks to several sources.

5. You are aware there are....trillions of Vong? And all those Sith forceusers won't help a damn against the Vong. Those weapons and gauntlets can take decades to actively create.

6. You may not think Luke, Jaina/Jacen are stronger than those 'millions'.....I'd like some proof here. Jaina/Jacen and Luke do far more than any other era, are basically stated to be the top force users...

7. At the point Luke killed a slayer with the lightning, Luke had learned to connect them through the Force thanks to Sekot...something Dark Siders CANNOT do.

8. Now, the Sith would have to be detonating their OWN stars, because they CANNOT leave their own space or they risk massive invasion from the Vong, who can match them man to man-The Sith empire was maybe....ten worlds, by the way. Ziost, Korriban, Malachor, coupla others....that's really it...The Vong had enough people to fill up a galaxy. Of where 365 trillion is but a small percentile. How many stars can the sith blow up? How well can they do when they realize their opponents are immune to the Force? They can't touch them with their artifacts...and a relatively small empire whose entire force could only invade three worlds? Man for man, a Vong warrior could finish a Sith Lord...who'd be fighting blind and scared.

9. The MAssassi are NOTHING more than canon fodder that we saw Kirrek rebels, Republic soldiers and PRISONERS slaughtering with great ease. Against Vong who move faster than the eye can see with weapons that strange to them with their Force advantage gone? And the Vong are completely self sacrificing, unlike the Sith....those 'one hundred Sith Lords' boards their ships, the Vong will self destruct/blow it up without thinking twice.

And the Ancient Sith Empire was around.....2000 years

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. What I'm talking about is easy, Bor: Not a single Jedi fighting a Sith lord in the Hyperspace War mano a mano suffered anything more than a scar

When did they ever go toe-to-toe?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
2. Well, Ragnos would be able to do...nothing more than make the Vong crack up, considering those force techniques don't work on Vong and the Sith couldn't be able to find them through the Force. And unless the seriously outnumbered Sith can afford to vaporize half their territory to dent the Vong. Ragnos's empire stagnated completely and fell apart upon his death, half in part to his incompetence.

Have you read NJO? The Vong can be detected though their body heat and the air they move when they walk. Also note force lightning works just fine.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
3. It was still Ragnos's mind and spirit. And if he knows those dark side techniques, well that would've been a nice time to use them. Every other time someone's spirit appeared in someone else's body, no flaws...and Revan the strongest in 20,000 years? Ignoring Ragnos, Exar Kun, Arca Jeth, Ulic Qel-Droma, Tott Doneeta, Vodo Siosk-Baas, Thon...

Those techniques probably require learge amounts of power. He apparently did have the necessary level of power at that point.

I'm not sure why you are talking about Revan.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
4. That's possibly because Anakin and Yoda appeared once in wordless scenes as Force ghosts and Vergere seemed omniscient when she was a ghost to Jacen. OBi-wan was also deliberately concealing things from Luke...the Dark Woman appeared quite omniscient when she appeared as a spirit...and a funny thing about knowledge is it tends to resurface. Luke certainly got everything from Ossus thanks to several sources.

That doesn't mean things like Malachor V, the loss of most of the Dantooine artifacts, the massive loss of knowledge in the Purge didn't happen. Also note that much was lost on Ossus. Luke went back to a knowledge barren one, everything was destroyed. Don't forget that Luke was devastated by the loss of a single holocron in JA trilogy/ I, Jedi(they happened at the same time from different perspectives). The only source Luke has is the small Jedi Library that was on the Chu'uthor, but that was, like I said, small, and much more recent knowledge, meaning nothing of the Ancient Sith stuff was on it. Also note that it was very small because, as said before, later, when Luke had Vodo's holocron, he was devastated even though he still had access to the Chu'uthor library.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
5. You are aware there are....trillions of Vong? And all those Sith forceusers won't help a damn against the Vong. Those weapons and gauntlets can take decades to actively create.

Source? I've never heard they take huge amounts of time to make.

There are trillions of Vong though, but a single Sith could take thousands of them. Sadow could take out a star and then 50 billion Vong just died.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
6. You may not think Luke, Jaina/Jacen are stronger than those 'millions'.....I'd like some proof here. Jaina/Jacen and Luke do far more than any other era, are basically stated to be the top force users...

Jacen and Jaina were captured by a single TIE fighter pilot.

Anyway, even a thousand small feats means less then a few massive ones.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
7. At the point Luke killed a slayer with the lightning, Luke had learned to connect them through the Force thanks to Sekot...something Dark Siders CANNOT do.

Wrong, seeing as Jacen was able to do the same thing with force lightning before meating Sekot. Jacen did have Vongsense at that time, but electricity has the same effect reguardless of the opponent.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
8. Now, the Sith would have to be detonating their OWN stars, because they CANNOT leave their own space or they risk massive invasion from the Vong, who can match them man to man-The Sith empire was maybe....ten worlds, by the way. Ziost, Korriban, Malachor, coupla others....that's really it...The Vong had enough people to fill up a galaxy. Of where 365 trillion is but a small percentile. How many stars can the sith blow up? How well can they do when they realize their opponents are immune to the Force? They can't touch them with their artifacts...and a relatively small empire whose entire force could only invade three worlds? Man for man, a Vong warrior could finish a Sith Lord...who'd be fighting blind and scared.

Their opponents are not immune. To say so is in defiance of logic. Also note that there were stated to be about 2 quadrillion people in the galaxy. 16% is note a small percentile.

If you want to go by the number of names planets, then the Vong have about 20. Fact is that the Sith were able to wage an effective war against the Republic, which had at least 1 million member worlds with a few million other colony worlds. To say the Sith have less then 500,000 worlds is in defiance of logic.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
9. The MAssassi are NOTHING more than canon fodder that we saw Kirrek rebels, Republic soldiers and PRISONERS slaughtering with great ease. Against Vong who move faster than the eye can see with weapons that strange to them with their Force advantage gone? And the Vong are completely self sacrificing, unlike the Sith....those 'one hundred Sith Lords' boards their ships, the Vong will self destruct/blow it up without thinking twice.

Note how the Massassi were extremely powerful when they were mutated by Sith Alchemy by a relatively weak user(Exar) opperating only from Naga's knowledge. Imagine a few trillion of those.