1. The the Great Hyperspace war when Sadow's Sith Lords are slaughtered by a small group of Jedi?
2. In two cases and noticeably only through people who were feeling them through the Force at the time. The idea of a species that is a literal hole in the force on its own would make the Sith level of confidence go down hugely.
3. Yes, it requires so much power to do the equivalent of pressing a button on a ship...we don't know if Sadow made the thing.
4. Luke has everything prior to those, thanks to what he uncovered from OSsus. Palpatine had access to the ANCIENT Sith and all the knowledge from Bane and the Ruusan era....and that holocron was when he'd just started to build up things again...it's been a good thirty or so years since.
5. Freedon Nadd in The Naddist revolt when he gave the weapons/amulets to Satal and Aleema.
6. Jacen and Jaina were 15. By the NJO, they're in their twenties and doing a lot more...hell, they improve a lot more by the end of Darkest Night.
7. Jacen was noticeably sensing opponents through the Force. And we have other evidence that trying offensive Force techniques-LIGHTNING INCLUDED- fails...one of Tsavong Lah's captured Jedi attempts to break him with the Force or destroy him with lightning....it's impossible to hurt a Yuuzhan Vong via the Force unless you know what to do. And Dark Siders can't do it.
8. EFFECTIVE war? Read The fall of the Sith Empire. Took everything they had to attack THREE worlds.....THREE WORLDS. And they were CRUSHED. In a matter of hours. And sorry, we have a little map of the entire universe form the Chronology....the Sith Empire has no more than 10 worlds, if that wasn't confirmed by Golden Age talking about their planets...500,000 worlds? Don't be absurd. Read up on your source material, the Sith had enough to attack three worlds-canon- and were crushed-canon-and in the entire Sith space, we don't see a huge cluster of worlds, we see a small collection. The evidence is against you. The Vong have enough to populate an entire galaxy and since most Force techniques don't work on them whatsoever...no force chokes, it's been tried...force lightning when you're unconnected to the Vong...that was tried... Dark Side techniques...Welk and Lomi Plo couldn't do that...
9. Notice how the Massassi I was describing were from Sadow's conquest and being torn apart by Republic, Kirrek and random prisoners....not a very strong group of fighters, who noticeably don't move faster than the eye can see...nor do they have thud bugs or razor bugs...Or blorash jelly...or anything to really pierce Vong armor...it'd take a Sith Lord for that. Not Exar's MAssassi, Sadow's. The MAssassi belonging to the LATER Sith. Exar even gave his own twist on Sadow's design amd a few trillion? Please, the Sith Empire was small. Ragnos himself knew attacking the Republic was suicidal folly.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Not really. The Sith Empire has been around since before 25,000 B.B.Y. most likely since they are believed to have done a lot in bringing down the Infinite Empire. The Dark Jedi were only there for 2000 years.
I suppose if you ignore they were peaceful primitives until the Dark JEdi arrived.....take it up with the Chronology: 7000 BBY to 5000 BBY
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1. The the Great Hyperspace war when Sadow's Sith Lords are slaughtered by a small group of Jedi?
This is BS.
2. In two cases and noticeably only through people who were feeling them through the Force at the time. The idea of a species that is a literal hole in the force on its own would make the Sith level of confidence go down hugely.
You're assuming that the Sith will suffer a lack of morale because of the Vong's nature? Right.
3. Yes, it requires so much power to do the equivalent of pressing a button on a ship...we don't know if Sadow made the thing.
He just happens to own the only one in the entire series.
4. Luke has everything prior to those, thanks to what he uncovered from OSsus. Palpatine had access to the ANCIENT Sith and all the knowledge from Bane and the Ruusan era....and that holocron was when he'd just started to build up things again...it's been a good thirty or so years since.
Where is this specifically? Sources are helpful.
5. Freedon Nadd in The Naddist revolt when he gave the weapons/amulets to Satal and Aleema.
Not sure what this point is about. Skipping it.
6. Jacen and Jaina were 15. By the NJO, they're in their twenties and doing a lot more...hell, they improve a lot more by the end of Darkest Night.
And they still couldn't handle a Sith Lord who is easily many decades older, if not a century or more.
7. Jacen was noticeably sensing opponents through the Force. And we have other evidence that trying offensive Force techniques-LIGHTNING INCLUDED- fails...one of Tsavong Lah's captured Jedi attempts to break him with the Force or destroy him with lightning....it's impossible to hurt a Yuuzhan Vong via the Force unless you know what to do. And Dark Siders can't do it.
Who says they have to target the Vong? Just rip up stones and pelt them from a distance... KO.
8. EFFECTIVE war? Read The fall of the Sith Empire. Took everything they had to attack THREE worlds.....THREE WORLDS. And they were CRUSHED. In a matter of hours. And sorry, we have a little map of the entire universe form the Chronology....the Sith Empire has no more than 10 worlds, if that wasn't confirmed by Golden Age talking about their planets...500,000 worlds? Don't be absurd. Read up on your source material, the Sith had enough to attack three worlds-canon- and were crushed-canon-and in the entire Sith space, we don't see a huge cluster of worlds, we see a small collection. The evidence is against you. The Vong have enough to populate an entire galaxy and since most Force techniques don't work on them whatsoever...no force chokes, it's been tried...force lightning when you're unconnected to the Vong...that was tried... Dark Side techniques...Welk and Lomi Plo couldn't do that...
Beast Wars of Onderon:
4,000 BBY: First Battle of Onderon (end of Beast Wars)
Naddist Uprising:
3,998 BBY: Second Battle of Onderon
3,998 BBY: Third Battle of Onderon
Krath Holy Crusade (3,997-3,996 BBY):
3,997 BBY: Battle of Basilisk
3,997 BBY: First Battle of Empress Teta
3,997 BBY: Battle of Deneba
3,997 BBY: Second Battle of Empress Teta
3,997 BBY?: Battle of Ko Vari (Boonta)
3,996 BBY: Battle of Kuar
3,996 BBY: Dark Reaper Campaign
3,996 BBY: Battle of Foerost
3,996 BBY: First Battle of Coruscant
3,996 BBY: Battle of Vento
3,996 BBY: Second Battle of Coruscant
3,996 BBY: Battle of Kemplex IX
3,996 BBY: Battle of Ossus
3,996 BBY: Battle of Al'Har
3,996 BBY: Fourth Battle of Onderon
3,996 BBY: Battle of Yavin IV
3,996 BBY: Third Battle of Empress Teta
Those are all Sith War battles.
9. Notice how the Massassi I was describing were from Sadow's conquest and being torn apart by Republic, Kirrek and random prisoners....not a very strong group of fighters, who noticeably don't move faster than the eye can see...nor do they have thud bugs or razor bugs...Or blorash jelly...or anything to really pierce Vong armor...it'd take a Sith Lord for that. Not Exar's MAssassi, Sadow's. The MAssassi belonging to the LATER Sith. Exar even gave his own twist on Sadow's design amd a few trillion? Please, the Sith Empire was small. Ragnos himself knew attacking the Republic was suicidal folly.
Uh, Golden Age of the Sith Empire Comic # 0 has the original sketches of the characters, which includes Massassi warriors. I guess you're wrong, huh?
And in the narration of one of the Fall of the Sith Empire comics it is described as the "awesome Sith Empire". I suppose awesome means ten whole planets, huh? Is that how they had billions upon billions of slaves and vassals?
1. BS? In the war, we see....Momaw NAdill, old guy with beard, big Catharr guy and weird alien guy-Odan and Ooroo on another world slaughtering the MAssassi AND Sith Lords no sweat. Have you read the comic? Not a single one of the Jedi we saw fighting died. All the Sith did.
2. You mean...*GASP* React how the Jedi did, knowing that they can't sense their enemies through the force, thus crippling a large nature of their ability?!
3. It was only an ancient command ship that any Sith Lord with brains would keep for himself as a flagship or inheritance...If I were Ragnos I wouldn't give Simus a failsafe mechanism for blowing me to pieces.
4. Dark Empire'd be a biggie. And NJO. and the NJO companion.
6. You are aware JAcen became a living conduit to the Force at one point, right? Literally, everything became insignificant to him. And since they WILL be taking on the Sith in LEgacy of the Force, in their thirties...
7. Rip up stones and pelt the Vong? Yes, when the Vong are slamming moons into the Sith worlds and directing blackholes at them, that will work so well....and you are aware of the Vong durability and mentality? They train every day of their life to be able to resist such attacks and any pain...and they outnumber the Sith heavily. The Sith could outmass an army against ten percent of the Vong warrior caste....and let's see how well that tactic works...how many Sith'll stick around and give their lives against billions of Vong...
8. You'll notice not a SINGLE ONE OF THOSE BATTLES was fought by the Ancient Sith in the Great Hyperspace War?
9. Gee, one planet having billions of people...And I've seen the Massassi. Pink skinned humanoid warriors. NOT Kun's version of them. One of the largest Sith worlds managed to accumulate several thousand Massassi
They were a useless group of primitives until the Dark Jedi came around to dominate them. The Vong'd wipe them out in moments. You realize it need never come to a group battle with the Vong? A few weapons and the Vong can turn blow superheat Ziost, slam a moon into it, pull it out of gravity...among other things
It may take a few months...however, like I said, the Sith can't afford to expand after the Vong and given how selfish and self serving they are, they'd never destroy themselves to the Vong-even if they tried, it'd wipe out a small portion of the Vong.
A Vong warrior'd be the equal of a Sith warrior-given how well they fight, how fast they move, etc- and they outnumber them, what, a trillion to one? maybe a billion to one? Force techniques-or most of them-don't worth, a major advantage of the Sith is gone when they can't feel them in the Force, the Vong can just sit back in a worldship above Ziost and slam a moon down or superheat the planet-and Ziost is an icy planet, that bodes ill
Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. BS? In the war, we see....Momaw NAdill, old guy with beard, big Catharr guy and weird alien guy-Odan and Ooroo on another world slaughtering the MAssassi AND Sith Lords no sweat. Have you read the comic? Not a single one of the Jedi we saw fighting died. All the Sith did.
I still wonder which "Sith Lords" you're talking about. For your information: Sith Lords are only the people that are on the governing council. As far as KotoR tells us you have 20 Sith Lords and 1 Dark Lord per generation. Now since they could make Kressh the Dark Lord while Sadow was gone there must have been at least 11 Sith Lords still at Korriban and personally I don't see any Sith Lord following Sadow into the war.
2. You mean...*GASP* React how the Jedi did, knowing that they can't sense their enemies through the force, thus crippling a large nature of their ability?!
When did you develop the idea that Sith = Jedi, eh ? First "fear" being an emoition is one of the sources of their power as we all know. Second - look at them. Most Jedi we have seen so far are pretty "regular" people physically...now compare them to Sith Lords, Massasi Warriors and things like that. Those Sith are uber muscular since they handle very heavy melee weapons. Do you think they wouldn't be able to fight because they can't sense the Vong ?
As we have seen all techniques that don't require to "sense" the enemy are still working. This would include force lightning (which is a directed energy blast) all kinds of telekinetic abilities (throw stuff at the Vong which would include "saber throwing"😉. Can you say "toasted Vong" ?
3. It was only an ancient command ship that any Sith Lord with brains would keep for himself as a flagship or inheritance...If I were Ragnos I wouldn't give Simus a failsafe mechanism for blowing me to pieces.
Ah...and who says they can't built more ? Somebody had to built it, right ? And that "somebody" is part of the Ancient Sith Empire...
6. You are aware JAcen became a living conduit to the Force at one point, right? Literally, everything became insignificant to him. And since they WILL be taking on the Sith in LEgacy of the Force, in their thirties...
Oh. It's nice what they "will" do. Any prove ? Or lets make a difference here: Any proof that somebody from the NJO series would be able to defeat a Sith Lords with several centuries of experience, combat training and force practice ? Imagine Yoda gone dark and throw him at Jacen / Jaina. I wonder how that fight would end...
7. Rip up stones and pelt the Vong? Yes, when the Vong are slamming moons into the Sith worlds and directing blackholes at them, that will work so well....and you are aware of the Vong durability and mentality? They train every day of their life to be able to resist such attacks and any pain...and they outnumber the Sith heavily. The Sith could outmass an army against ten percent of the Vong warrior caste....and let's see how well that tactic works...how many Sith'll stick around and give their lives against billions of Vong...
First...the Sith have technology able to destroy stars...but they can't destroy a moon being thrown at their worlds ?
And you seem to have forgotten that not all Vong are warriors, slayers and so on. The "normal" Vong is twice as strong as a regular human warrior. Their warriors and slayers are stronger but uh...as I said...look at the Sith Lords. We're talking about people that have trained with melee weapons for decades if not centuries. They are more experienced and - by any logic - stronger than the YV's. And if some people in the NJO with less experience, less physical strength and most like less (aggressive) force power can slay dozens of Yuuzhan Vong and if 3 people are enough to kill thousands of them - I don't see the Ancient Sith Empire loosing.
9. Gee, one planet having billions of people...And I've seen the Massassi. Pink skinned humanoid warriors. NOT Kun's version of them. One of the largest Sith worlds managed to accumulate several thousand Massassi
You did notice that it wasn't Kun but Sadow who "mutated" the Massasi that followed him to Yavin 4 via Sith Alchemy ? And well:
That "thing" on the right doesn't look weak to me... 😉
I suppose if you ignore they were peaceful primitives until the Dark JEdi arrived.....take it up with the Chronology: 7000 BBY to 5000 BBY
I guess if you ignore the fact that the "Great Shism" in the Jedi Order happened in 24,500 BBY and the first Dark Jedi (exiled from Republic space) reached the Sith worlds in 24,400 BBY you could talk about "2000 years". Using the real information you have 24,400 BBY - 5000 BBY and if you count Sadow's suspended animation period you would come to 24,400 BBY - 4,400 BBY which means you would have exactly 20,000 years and not 2000.
1. Yes, that's who I'm talking about. One of the ones we saw Momaw fighting was named, the leader of the assault on Coruscant. As well as two others we saw in council on Coruscant and S-something who Ooroo killed.
2. You're right, the Sith'd probably react a great deal worse, given their dominating view of the world. Here's something else: Force lightning from the dark side does NOT work: In all cases when it did, it was used via lightside to those sensing the Vong, however temporarily. Some people tried using telekenisis on the Vong, and Force Lightning...it didn't work at all. And since the Ancient Sith hardly ever used Lightsabers....and the Sith were hardly a physically imposing group themselves. Ludo Kressh was downright scrawny and Naga was hardly built well. The Force does wonders for fighting ability-the Massassi were a race bred entirely for war, and they did horribly against the Jedi-Jori Daragon killed a small squadron of them, she being a pilot who'd just gotten a saber-....and the Vong tend to be very tall, extremely muscular creatures.
3. Can they build before or after the Vong're attacking them? The process takes a long time, and that'd be just to BUILD the damn ship, let alone empower it. They literally had to lay that thing down piece by piece with the Sith slaves and Massassi...the process'd take years and they don't have years.
4. Yes, considering it's been confirmed Lumiya with someone getting her back returns in Legacy of the Force...as for Yoda turning dark, let's just make Jacen that living conduit to the entire, living, unifying Force again when every living thing is little more than an ant...or Luke who moves star destroyers and stars and moves black holes....the Ancient sith can't compare to him, not by a long shot. Nor to Jacen and Jaina'd who become momentuously powerful at that point? And in a military fight, the Sith'd be destroyed. Not to mention the average Jedi was the match of an average Vong. One of those 'mighty warriors' was killed by a young Jedi adviser. In a lightsaber duel. We're also talking of a people that's totally reliant on fighting through the Force. and more experienced? The Vong have been warring and destroying since long before and long after the Sith Empire. From the Cremlevian War to the galactic civil war, they hadn't stopped fighting in their entire history until they lost the final war to the Republic.
5. Considering their superweapon focuses on manipulating solar flares into a chain reaction....no, I really don't think they could destroy moons hurtled at Ziost, which'd hit them within minutes. And the Yuuzhan Vong lived for centuries. Tsavong Lah was three hundred or so, Czulkang was massively older than that...and the 'average' Vong is twice as strong as a tough human. The warrior Yuuzhan Vong'd be even stronger than that. and when the Ancient Sith number in the zillions and move faster than the eye can see...militarily, the Ancient Sith didn't have the numbers to take on Koros Major, Kirrek and Coruscant....the Vong had the numbers to take half the galaxy over. And then some. And the Shapers could pose a massive issue for the Sith...and if the Sith tried some illusions like Naga sadow did, wha do you think the end result would be? A BIGGER flood of a religious fanatically selfless race throwing themselves at the Sith armies? The entire point of Sith illusions was to discourage opponents and to such a race, that won't work, especially when you can't project illusions into their minds
6. That thing on the right was the result of an evolved Massassi. Sadow had little to do with their devolutions. They evolved that way on their own, into primitives over a thousand years-the dark side had a lot to do with it, but it was stated in DlotS that they'd devolved into the things we saw...And once again, that thing on the right wasn't too impressive....Sylvar killed about five of them with her bare hands. By the end of everything, they'd forgotten most of their entire history until Kun arrived.
7. The Great Schism has been irritatingly retconned. The Sith Empire was started in 7000 BBY now. We have two thousand years of a Sith Empire, and believe me, this pisses me off. In the New Essential Chronology, under the Battle of Corbos, it stated that the empire was founded in 7000 BBY. And the official stance now seems the Skwalkers are the strongest Jedi group, Luke being the strongest force user ever. And it's been said we're seeing the Sith again in Legacy and more than Lumiya, and since Luke's been making inroads to checking out the Sith worlds...he even helped the former Night Beast find Ziost
Lightsnake, I noticed that you said dark side moves did not work. While in ‘Star by Star’ I distinctly remember two dark jedi literally tearing apart Vong using the force. If they can do that, I think that Ragnos and the other sith lords would be able to do the same.
Also Lightsnake, you said that a jedi was unable to use force lightning to kill Tasovong Lah, well one reason could be that he was, gasp a jedi and had no training in force lightning. If I remember correctly this took place before the jedi started using dark side powers.
Also I see that you keep coming back to the fact that Jacen was able to defeat Tasovong, well he did this for two reasons, one by surprise. Lah was caught completely by surprise. However the more important reason is that he did this by using the force, note that this is before meeting Sekot and also before his Vongsense. He grabbed chairs with the force and beat Lah over the head with them and then force pushed him out the window. The damage to Lah’s ankle was caused by him landing squarely on his ankle, damaging it. Also note that the ancient sith would also be able to force push and lift objects to do the same thing that Jacen did to other Vong.
Also, I noticed that some people here seem to have been thinking that Marka is quite weak, well hopefully this can help turn that around, pay special note to the stats for him vs NJO Luke. Even though these cannot be 100% canon, they still provide a good outlook on how powerful some people imagine him to be.
Marka Ragnos was the ninth dark lord of the sith. He succeeded Lord Simus and beheaded him. However Simus was so powerful that he was able to keep his head alive, however Marka was even more powerful than Lord Simus was. Marka was a half blood sith, and half bloods were hated and considered to be abnormal and an abomination to the old sith. Yet Marka was able to rise up from the very pits of the sith empire to rule, unchallenged for over a hundred and fifty years. He was so powerful that he was able to die of old age, an unheard of feat in the sith empire since the sith challenged their master for control as soon as they thought that they had a chance of victory. Yet even with this mentality, and the fact that he was hated by all, nobody dared to challenge him, knowing that they would loose. They allowed someone that they hated and was an abomination to them to rule unchallenged for over 150 years. And this was during the height of the sith, their golden age. The ruling sith could easily throw stars around (Marka’s successor, Naga Sadow could, also it was not a power that was specific to Sadow; Exar Kun destroyed several stars, yes one was using Sadow’s ship, but the other was by himself, so if Exar could do it using only Sadow’s notes, it stands to reason that the other sith lords in Sadow’s time could blow up stars as well), yet they could not over-throw him. Even when he was weak and on his deathbed, they did not dare to challenge him. Imagine, there is a person who you hate above all else, has ruled over you, you have support to kill him, you can throw stars at people and rule over massive fleets that could destroy the republic. Also, if you killed him you would be rewarded above all and rule the galaxy. He is old, sick, dying with cancer and in extreme pain. Would you not think that you could kill him? Probably, but Naga Sadow, how had all that power that I mentioned, still did not think he had the power to kill Marka.
Actually, they hated him even more than they hated other half bloods because he did not expand the sith empire much during his rule. He only expanded the sith empire slightly because he did not want to encounter the Republic, he alone out of the sith knew what they had done to the old sith and he was unsure if they were still that strong. However, he still knew that the sith needed to fight, so he decided that he would make them all attack him. He got all the other sith to attack him so they wouldn’t attack the republic and reveal themselves. He did this knowing that if even one of them succeeded, he was dead, yet nobody succeeded. So he was in constant combat for a while, at least until the other sith realized that nobody could beat him. So he was in constant combat for at least several years.
Even after his death the sith still listened to him, his spirit returned while Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh were fighting for control of the sith and he ordered them to stop. They did. Just think, he is dead, and they hate him, but they will still listen to him, knowing his power. He was so powerful that he could even get the next two most powerful dark lords to stop fighting and bow down to him. He could get sith to stop fighting for the title of dark lord of the sith! That is very impressive since sith do not stop fighting for just anything, especially when they are fighting over something that important and it is a duel to the death.
Marka also had tremendous physical and force power and was huge physically. He used a massive sword with cortosis weave, meaning that lightsabers and blasters would not harm it. He also had a staff and his staff could steal force power from others, cause earthquakes as well as fire a ‘laser-like’ blast of force energy, which caused massive damage and could blast through solid rock. Also, he would have been very skilled with his weapons, having fought his way to the top of the empire. Kreia said that the best duellers in her day are like children wielding sticks compared to the duellers in ancient times. Also, in her day there were sith lords like Exar Kun, Ulic-Qel Droma, Darth Revan and Darth Malak, all considered to be excellent duellers, yet apparently, the ancient sith (whom Marka led unchallenged for over 150 years) outclass them all.
Marka was also very cunning and smart. He controlled and manipulated entire sith empire for over 150 years. He would not be able to be fooled in battle and would use the battle setting to his own advantage.
Over 1000 years later his spirit returned and told Exar and Ulic to stop fighting, even though they had no reason to listen and had no idea who he was, they listened because they could feel his power, he ordered them around and they did as he wished. He was so powerful that even 1000 years after his death his gloves still retained traces of his power and memory (allowing only dark-siders to wear them). Also even 5200 years after his death his staff still retains traces of his power and is a powerful weapon, able to steal the force and use it to charge non-force sensitive people with the force. It was so powerful, that even 5200 years after his death it still could restore him to life.
Also, It is not the act of blowing up stars that makes what Naga Sadow did so impressive; it's the enormous potential needed. Naga Sadow was very influential, as was Ludo Kressh. Of the two, I believe Sadow was the better, and would have had no problem solidifying his rise to power in any case. Look how easily he led the Sith against the Republic! Also, even though Naga could throw stars at people, he was still challenged for control of the sith after only a few months, maybe a year. And he could throw stars around! Naga was also a respected sith (or as respected as you can get). Marka was hated and he was still never challenged.
So influence wasn't keeping Sadow from gutting Ragnos, because everyone hated Marka and wanted to see him dead. He was a half-breed and Sith, true Sith like Ludo and Naga, hated half breeds. And it wasn't out of respect or loyalty that Sadow allowed Ragnos to live. Once you eliminate the possibilities, it becomes obvious that Sadow simply could not defeat Ragnos and knew it.
He is even far stronger than NJO Luke, here is info taken from the star wars revised core rule book and the dark side source book, both from Lucas:
Luke's abilities in NJO:
Affect Mind: 11
Battlemind: 8
Empathy: 10
Enhance Ability: 10
Enhance Senses: 6
Farseeing: 9
Force Defence: 6
Heal Self: 6
Move Object: 10
See Force: 10
Telepathy: 7
Force Feats:
Alter
Attuned
Control
Force mastery
Knight defence
Lightsaber defence
Sense
Feats:
Acrobatic
Combat reflexes
Exotic weapon proficiency lightsaber
Force sensitive
Weapon focus lightsaber
Now for Marka Ragnos
Affect Mind: 8
Alchemy: 22
Battlemind: 17
Control Mind: 19
Enhance Ability: 19
Force Defence: 18 (even stronger than Yoda's force defence!)
Move Object: 10
See Force: 12
Telepathy: 9
Force Feats:
Alter
Control
Drain force
Force lightning
Force mastery
Force mind
Rage
Sense
Sith sorcery
Sith sword defense
Sith sword expertise
Sith sword mastery
Feats:
Light and medium armor proficiency
Exotic weapon proficiency sith sword
Exotic weapon proficiency sith lanvarok
Force sensitive
Great fortitude
Power attack
Weapon focus sith sword
This shows that Marka Ragnos was far more powerful than even NJO Luke, and Luke was able to manipulate gravity and kill thousands of people in a single battle, yet Marka was substantially greater. Marka even had powers that NJO Luke had never even heard of.
When he was finally defeated by Jaden Korr, it was 5200 years after his physical body had died, and since spirits get weaker over time, he was a mere fraction of his former self. Yet he was still able to put up a decent fight against a powerful jedi knight, just imagine what he would have been like when he was alive.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
2. You're right, the Sith'd probably react a great deal worse, given their dominating view of the world. Here's something else: Force lightning from the dark side does NOT work: In all cases when it did, it was used via lightside to those sensing the Vong, however temporarily. Some people tried using telekenisis on the Vong, and Force Lightning...it didn't work at all. And since the Ancient Sith hardly ever used Lightsabers....and the Sith were hardly a physically imposing group themselves. Ludo Kressh was downright scrawny and Naga was hardly built well. The Force does wonders for fighting ability-the Massassi were a race bred entirely for war, and they did horribly against the Jedi-Jori Daragon killed a small squadron of them, she being a pilot who'd just gotten a saber-....and the Vong tend to be very tall, extremely muscular creatures.
Ludo Kressh was able to shatter Sith Swords with his bare hands. Sith swords were stronger then blast doors.
When did someone ever try using lightning and it didn't work on the Vong?
Vong are about 6'3 and 215 pounds or so, judging from pictures of them. Stronger then a human, but a Sith would pwn them in physical combat. A Massassi would too.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
3. Can they build before or after the Vong're attacking them? The process takes a long time, and that'd be just to BUILD the damn ship, let alone empower it. They literally had to lay that thing down piece by piece with the Sith slaves and Massassi...the process'd take years and they don't have years.
Prove that the process takes a long time. Ships can be built in hours if necessary. Hell, Nasa could big a space capable ship in less then a week if they really needed too.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
4. Yes, considering it's been confirmed Lumiya with someone getting her back returns in Legacy of the Force...as for Yoda turning dark, let's just make Jacen that living conduit to the entire, living, unifying Force again when every living thing is little more than an ant...or Luke who moves star destroyers and stars and moves black holes....the Ancient sith can't compare to him, not by a long shot. Nor to Jacen and Jaina'd who become momentuously powerful at that point? And in a military fight, the Sith'd be destroyed. Not to mention the average Jedi was the match of an average Vong. One of those 'mighty warriors' was killed by a young Jedi adviser. In a lightsaber duel. We're also talking of a people that's totally reliant on fighting through the Force. and more experienced? The Vong have been warring and destroying since long before and long after the Sith Empire. From the Cremlevian War to the galactic civil war, they hadn't stopped fighting in their entire history until they lost the final war to the Republic.
No, the Vong never fought on their ships. All experince prior to that doesn't matter, since anyone from then would be long dead. Note that all of the Ancient Sith carried swords with them.
We've shown that Sadow is stronger then Luke when he is using his ship. If Ragnos was using one, he'd be pwning Vong left and right.
The Ancient Sith were said to make later Jedi look like children playing with toys.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
5. Considering their superweapon focuses on manipulating solar flares into a chain reaction....no, I really don't think they could destroy moons hurtled at Ziost, which'd hit them within minutes. And the Yuuzhan Vong lived for centuries. Tsavong Lah was three hundred or so, Czulkang was massively older than that...and the 'average' Vong is twice as strong as a tough human. The warrior Yuuzhan Vong'd be even stronger than that. and when the Ancient Sith number in the zillions and move faster than the eye can see...militarily, the Ancient Sith didn't have the numbers to take on Koros Major, Kirrek and Coruscant....the Vong had the numbers to take half the galaxy over. And then some. And the Shapers could pose a massive issue for the Sith...and if the Sith tried some illusions like Naga sadow did, wha do you think the end result would be? A BIGGER flood of a religious fanatically selfless race throwing themselves at the Sith armies? The entire point of Sith illusions was to discourage opponents and to such a race, that won't work, especially when you can't project illusions into their minds
The Vong took much less then half of the galaxy, look at a map. Also note that force users were considered gods by most of the Vong. Weaker ones like Ganner and Anakin made them revolt, imagine what Ragnos would do. We're talking massive uprisings.
Also note weapons like the Reaper or whatever it was called. It could strip a moon bare in minutes. The Sith could have made dozens of these, but didn't because they wanted to conquer, not destroy. If facing extinction, they would change their mind.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
6. That thing on the right was the result of an evolved Massassi. Sadow had little to do with their devolutions. They evolved that way on their own, into primitives over a thousand years-the dark side had a lot to do with it, but it was stated in DlotS that they'd devolved into the things we saw...And once again, that thing on the right wasn't too impressive....Sylvar killed about five of them with her bare hands. By the end of everything, they'd forgotten most of their entire history until Kun arrived.
But Kun made them really strong later with only what Naga had.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
7. The Great Schism has been irritatingly retconned. The Sith Empire was started in 7000 BBY now. We have two thousand years of a Sith Empire, and believe me, this pisses me off. In the New Essential Chronology, under the Battle of Corbos, it stated that the empire was founded in 7000 BBY. And the official stance now seems the Skwalkers are the strongest Jedi group, Luke being the strongest force user ever. And it's been said we're seeing the Sith again in Legacy and more than Lumiya, and since Luke's been making inroads to checking out the Sith worlds...he even helped the former Night Beast find Ziost
Seems to be the strongest? Put a cork on the BS.
Note that there have been several major Schisms. There was one that happened circa 25,000 BBY and another that happened 7000 BBY. Both worked with the Sith people.
Lomi and Welk were quite noticeably using amplifications to their own weapons and killing Voxyn with the Force. And the book said, in no uncertain terms that it was impossible to use force lightning on Vong-doesn't take much to use Force Lightning, Quinlan Vos did it out of simple anger- or telekinisis on him.
Unless Tsavong'd be fighting them in an office-Jacen had a MASSIVE advantage in that fight: The Force itself was literally guiding him- and he's fighting enemies the Force'd favor...I also doubt in a big fight like that, there'd be an open window....Vong take to smack very heavily and small projectiles out of the air easily and respond with razor and thud bugs...and they HEAVILY outnumber the Sith.
And you'll notice that Ragnos is in NO FREAKING WAY stronger than Luke. Luke's NJO stats are one detail, RPG stats matter in no way to the story's another thing0I could provide numerous examples there, numerous.-And Luke is called in no uncertain terms the strongest Force User. Hell, Luceno said that's what he was striving for. They even got the go ahead from Lucas for that-this being in SW Insider.
And noone ever said Ragnos was weak. The Sith heeded one prophecy of his as he was connected to the Dark Side and Exar Kun knew exactly who Ragnos was: He'd seen his remains on Korriban.
Darkstar, I respect you heavily, but have you ever read on Luke's strength? What so called powers did Ragnos use? Luke wouldn't know of them? Luke has holocrons dating back to the Ancient Empire-Andeddu? Vodo Baas? among others. Luke crushed DE era Sidious and that was well over thirty years away from Legacy of the Force, where Luke has achieved a level much higher than any other in the galaxy. Hell, it's even been hinted Luke will be cleaning up the Ancients on Korriban
Edge of Victory. Force Lightning tried on Vong. Didn't work. And Glentract? Drop this Sith bias. Because HUMAN Jedi slaughtered Massassi savagely. a HUMAN Jedi killed one of the twenty Sith Lords in a straight up duel. Do Sith move faster than the eye can follow? Can they lift solid durasteel? No? Ok then. Is Nasa the Sith? Will the Sith have weeks to make a cruiser bigger and more advanced than anything our world has with Massassi laying it out one stone at a time? Think the Vong are gonna sit around having tea?
With what Naga had? Exar changed the designs in quite a few places.
And yeah, that's official stance on it. Show me a single thing to shoot it down. If you can, of course...or anything to suggest the Sith-massively outnumbered, mind you- would even dent the Vong...
And 'both worked with the Sith people?' The first Great schism involved Xendor....no Sith involved at all.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Yes, that's who I'm talking about. One of the ones we saw Momaw fighting was named, the leader of the assault on Coruscant. As well as two others we saw in council on Coruscant and S-something who Ooroo killed.
So you're saying because Sith Lords were defeated by Jedi Masters they must be weak ?!
2. You're right, the Sith'd probably react a great deal worse, given their dominating view of the world.
Oh come on...you reall think they'd immediatly panic because "oh my god...I can't sense those things through the force..." ?
Here's something else: Force lightning from the dark side does NOT work: In all cases when it did, it was used via lightside to those sensing the Vong, however temporarily.
That's great. The Vong can't be sensed - yet some people sensed them and Force Lightning from the Dark Side does not work - which you know of course, because we had so many Sith Lords running around and fighting Vong in the NJO series. And the people who invented force lightning and practiced that stuff for decades or centuries would be worse using it compared to the NJO Jedi... 🙄
Some people tried using telekenisis on the Vong, and Force Lightning...it didn't work at all. And since the Ancient Sith hardly ever used Lightsabers.
Oh. For force lightning see above. For telekenisis: It didn't work ? They tried to throw things at them and the things stopped in the air ? I must have missed that scene. And a Sith sword can also be thrown. You don't need a lightsaber...
...and the Sith were hardly a physically imposing group themselves.
Ludo Kressh was downright scrawny and Naga was hardly built well.
LOL. Great. All Sith Lords are champion warriors and if you consider the weight and size of the weapons they are wielding they have to be physically strong. And if you have a careful look at the comics they might be "scawny" (not exactly what I would call them) but every bit of their body you can see is basically sheer muscles. And they need them handling weapons like they do...
The Force does wonders for fighting ability-the Massassi were a race bred entirely for war, and they did horribly against the Jedi-Jori Daragon killed a small squadron of them, she being a pilot who'd just gotten a saber-....and the Vong tend to be very tall, extremely muscular creatures.
The force does wonder for fighting ability - yet the Sith Lords have equal force powers compared to Jedi Master (but more agressive ones) and they have more physical strength.
3. Can they build before or after the Vong're attacking them? The process takes a long time, and that'd be just to BUILD the damn ship, let alone empower it. They literally had to lay that thing down piece by piece with the Sith slaves and Massassi...the process'd take years and they don't have years.
It's nice how you make an assumption of yours a fact. Do you know how much time it takes them to built such a relative small ship ? Sidious could built a Death Star in less than 4 years. And considering the fact that the Ancient Sith have control over the Star Forge they can duplicate the ship in the matter of minutes...
4. Yes, considering it's been confirmed Lumiya with someone getting her back returns in Legacy of the Force...as for Yoda turning dark, let's just make Jacen that living conduit to the entire, living, unifying Force again when every living thing is little more than an ant...or Luke who moves star destroyers and stars and moves black holes....the Ancient sith can't compare to him, not by a long shot. Nor to Jacen and Jaina'd who become momentuously powerful at that point? And in a military fight, the Sith'd be destroyed. Not to mention the average Jedi was the match of an average Vong. One of those 'mighty warriors' was killed by a young Jedi adviser. In a lightsaber duel. We're also talking of a people that's totally reliant on fighting through the Force. and more experienced? The Vong have been warring and destroying since long before and long after the Sith Empire. From the Cremlevian War to the galactic civil war, they hadn't stopped fighting in their entire history until they lost the final war to the Republic.
Man...since when is Lumiya an Ancient Sith Lord ?
And that assumption you make - really. Who should buy that ?
Sith and Jedi (average) are basically equal yet the Dark Side give the Sith an edge over a Jedi because of agressive force powers.
Now saying a "young Jedi adviser" killed somebody does say exactly nothing...was the "young Jedi adviser" especially powerful ? A lightsaber prodigy ? Zett Jukassa in ROTS killed 5 or 6 Clone Troopers when Ki-Adi-Mundi was killed by 4. Still Ki-Adi is the Council Member and Zett was a Padawan. That does say nothing.
And may I remind you that the Ancient Sith did constantly fight each other to gain power and that they had an extreme long life.
Also think of Sion who kept his body together with sheer willpower or Vader who did manage to survive a nice lava bath with sheer willpower...I don't see any Vong managing to do that...
5. Considering their superweapon focuses on manipulating solar flares into a chain reaction....no, I really don't think they could destroy moons hurtled at Ziost, which'd hit them within minutes.
Considering the fact that Aleema Keto used that superweapon to "throw" the core of a star changing the direction a moon flies to doesn't seem to be impossible...
And the Yuuzhan Vong lived for centuries. Tsavong Lah was three hundred or so, Czulkang was massively older than that...and the 'average' Vong is twice as strong as a tough human. The warrior Yuuzhan Vong'd be even stronger than that. and when the Ancient Sith number in the zillions and move faster than the eye can see...militarily, the Ancient Sith didn't have the numbers to take on Koros Major, Kirrek and Coruscant....the Vong had the numbers to take half the galaxy over. And then some. And the Shapers could pose a massive issue for the Sith...and if the Sith tried some illusions like Naga sadow did, wha do you think the end result would be? A BIGGER flood of a religious fanatically selfless race throwing themselves at the Sith armies? The entire point of Sith illusions was to discourage opponents and to such a race, that won't work, especially when you can't project illusions into their minds
And even more assumptions and tons of ignored details. The Sith were fighting an entire Order of Jedi Knights. We're talking about 10000s of Jedi which weren't present in NJO times.
Now if pretty "average" force user in the NJO series can take out dozens or hundrets of Vong - what would a Sith Lord do with force lightning that will most likely work against Vong ?
And the Illusions aren't created in the minds of opponents. They are just created. Read the Black Fleet series - Luke uses the same technique to make a planet invisible and I'm pretty sure he can't manipulate the mind of any person coming close to the planet for an infinite amount of time. Technically somebody like Sadow can walk around on some planet create 90 illusions that look like himself and start fighting. How much time do you think would a Vong need to find the right Sadow ?
6. That thing on the right was the result of an evolved Massassi. Sadow had little to do with their devolutions. They evolved that way on their own, into primitives over a thousand years-the dark side had a lot to do with it, but it was stated in DlotS that they'd devolved into the things we saw...And once again, that thing on the right wasn't too impressive....Sylvar killed about five of them with her bare hands. By the end of everything, they'd forgotten most of their entire history until Kun arrived.
You assume that Sylvar would be an average Jedi and therefore the Massasi must suck. On the same level I can say Vong slayers suck because Luke took down 8 of them at once and normal Vong / Vong soldiers suck even worse because being less powerful since Luke, Jacen and Jaina wasted thousands of them and even Kyp took down massive numbers.
7. The Great Schism has been irritatingly retconned. The Sith Empire was started in 7000 BBY now. We have two thousand years of a Sith Empire, and believe me, this pisses me off. In the New Essential Chronology, under the Battle of Corbos, it stated that the empire was founded in 7000 BBY. And the official stance now seems the Skwalkers are the strongest Jedi group, Luke being the strongest force user ever. And it's been said we're seeing the Sith again in Legacy and more than Lumiya, and since Luke's been making inroads to checking out the Sith worlds...he even helped the former Night Beast find Ziost
I personally don't care about what WotC assumes to be true (which the New Essential Chronology uses at source). Fact is that the ancient Sith didn't know lightsabers. Fact is that Vima Da Boda hands Luke (or Leia ?) a lightsaber from Ossus which was about 10,000 years old in DE. So it makes no sense to have the Sith Empire started before 10,000 BBY. And we know that the Great Shism happened 24,400 years BBY (Xendor) and there is no way to change it at least not for WotC since that number was installed by Lucas Art and they have the greater authority when it comes to "Dates in Star Wars".
And I won't argue that the Skywalkers are the strongest Jedi groups since there is no way to be stronger with the force. But that statement isn't talking about Sith. And Luke Skywalker can be the strongest force user ever - is he the best fighter ever too ?