The Ancient Sith Empire vs. The Yuuzhan Vong

Bor, I just had a massive post typed up and by a goddamn fluke, it got deleted.....suffice to say I'll make this short...

1. It need never come to a confrontation on ground-the Sith never moved faster than the eye could see and we never saw one of them beat a Jedi. And Jori daragon was alone with only a saber and killed an entire group of Massassi. She was facing an entire group of them by herself. And as for the Jedi killing them....well, we saw them literally slaughtering groups of them at a time on their own... And the Sith fleet was pitifully weak and required intimidation. You think the Vong would give a damn about 'figuring out illusions?' They'd just plunge into the fight and slaughter what they saw. Illusions would NOT work.

2. Ok, have you ever read Golden Age of the Sith? The final battle of the Sith empire was Corbos and according to the Han Solo trilogy, Xendor's legions were totally exterminated. Dan wallace works for Lucasfilm and his officially approved book says they were different schisms. the databank didn't say "This was the only schism, there were never other schisms." Xendor's schism and the hundred year Darkness were different...one little detail'd be Arden LYn and Xendor didn't live to be over 100. The LEttow war didn't last a century. Face it: I have an official source backing me here and you have a single quote that proves nothing, just that there was an Empire and it was founded. In case you didn't notice, dan Wallace isn't TFN, he wrote a book that is official continuity and listed by SW.com.

3. Ok, the Sith Empire was not as large as you think it was. It was described as 'small.' with only about, what, 15 worlds? And Koros Minor was one of Empress Teta's worlds. And when a GALAXY'S WORTH OF VONG SURROUNDS YOU you think you can escape at all? A force capable of defeating MILLIONS of worlds to your paltry little empire that couldn't beat three planets? That you won't sense till they're on you? You think the Vong aren't smart commanders? They scout, they plan, they scheme...they use superweapons, they dishearten. The Sith were practically democratic! They talked of 'electing' Ludo to the position of Dark Lord and they NEVER FOUGHT anyone who wasn't Sith. the first time they tried they were EXTERMINATED. The Sith were terrified of the idea of an enemy who could reach them and they couldn't sense when only Simus was murdered with his escort. They were terrified and panicked enemies had arrived from a place alien to them and that they didn't sense them. Their entire purpose, Ragnos and Kressh, was PRESERVING the race...the Sith factions will never stay together if some idiot Sith begins blowing up their worlds, damaging their beloved empire and losing resources...every last world of the Sith empire was vital to them

Moreover, as closely compacted as the Sith worlds are, with maybe two big stars, what will supernovaing one do the empire? It'd vaporize half the system. And the Star Forge? Nope, didn't have it. That they ever did was a complete error. That it could POSSIBLY be in Naga's tomb is an error. that Naga could have a tomb? An error. Korriban in that game was one big mistake. Where was the Star Forge during ragnos's reign then? Would've helped Naga, especially since he had a map in his TOMB! The idea they had a Star Forge is ludicrous beyond believe, especially considering the errors involved in Sadow's tomb. I'm sure they had time to build him one in the two days of his lordship before he got the Empire exterminated....I'm sure Ludo would've approved of a tomb being built to honor Naga

And minor force users? Please....back that up. And by the way, Yammosks have to shown to pierce illusions. They're extremely dangerous creatures and war coordinators with a talent for breaking people and piercing through the Force. And time to think about what's real and not? Their idea will be 'attack and kill what we see, worry about details later.' If it even comes down to a hand to hand...and that's in case they decide to let the MEditation sphere stand

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Also note that according to some rpg stats an average Massassi is about as good as an average Jedi, which can kill five or six Vong and come out alive. The better ones can take a few dozen.

Yes. Yes, which is why the best Massassi selected to assault Cinnagar and guard Sadow's fleet commander were killed by a kid who never touched a saber before

RPG stats= noncanon. Not even continuity. They contradict far too much. And the average Jedi can kill five or six Vong? Last I checked, the average Jedi was an average Vong's equal. Seriously, drop the RPG stats stuff. They even print a disclaimer in the opening pages that their stuff is games only and shouldn't effect the stories.

Did I ever say it does?

By the war, many average Jedi, like Tahiri was able to take five or six of them without to much difficutly. Ganner killed hundreds in a single battle. Equal my ass.

I'm talking the mutated ones that any Sith Alchemist could make in only a few days. Those guys were tough, but no one before Exar had use for them. Now they will, and they will use them.

Tahiri was NOT an ordinary Jedi at the time and was more in touch with the Vong than anyone else....and Ganner, like Anakin was opened up completely to the Force itself. He'd ceased to become Ganner.

And you're forgetting this need never come down to a melee fight. Those big mutated ones didn't do too well either.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. It need never come to a confrontation on ground-

No...because the Sith annihilate the Vong before ?

the Sith never moved faster than the eye could see

You want to argue hyperbole ? Mace did the same in Shatterpoint. His movements were descriped as "invisible" and he punched Kar Vastor 6 times before Kar - who would bash Vongs as if they were nothing - could even react. Since this is force aided movement speed and we have seen Obi-Wan (a Padawan !) and Qui-Gon doing the same thing in TPM (at the beginning when they ran away from the droideka they were moving faster then the blaster bolts fired at them) I'd say Sith Lords don't have any problems doing the same.

and we never saw one of them beat a Jedi.

Well...did you see ROTS ? I've seen a Sith Lord killing three Jedi Masters there and another Sith Lord was cutting his way to the Jedi temple. Did you miss that ?

And Jori daragon was alone with only a saber and killed an entire group of Massassi. She was facing an entire group of them by herself. And as for the Jedi killing them....well, we saw them literally slaughtering groups of them at a time on their own... And the Sith fleet was pitifully weak and required intimidation. You think the Vong would give a damn about 'figuring out illusions?' They'd just plunge into the fight and slaughter what they saw. Illusions would NOT work.

They would attack the illusions as well. And if Sadow is able to make up 90 % of his own forces with illusions they have exactly a chance of 10 % to hit something that does really exist while the Sith would have a 100 % chance to hit something that exists the other way arround.

2. Ok, have you ever read Golden Age of the Sith? The final battle of the Sith empire was Corbos and according to the Han Solo trilogy, Xendor's legions were totally exterminated. Dan wallace works for Lucasfilm and his officially approved book says they were different schisms. the databank didn't say "This was the only schism, there were never other schisms." Xendor's schism and the hundred year Darkness were different...one little detail'd be Arden LYn and Xendor didn't live to be over 100. The LEttow war didn't last a century. Face it: I have an official source backing me here and you have a single quote that proves nothing, just that there was an Empire and it was founded. In case you didn't notice, dan Wallace isn't TFN, he wrote a book that is official continuity and listed by SW.com.

Have you read the quote ? It says that the founding of the Sith Empire happened in the early days of the Jedi. Period. You have actually nothing to argue that because that people after the hundret year darkness could still have travelled to the Sith Empire but the actual founding happened after the first schism. And technically there wasn't another schism because that term means that one "religion" is divided into two different "religions" and there are only Jedi and Sith and nothing apart from them.
And great...the Han Solo trilogy. They might have thought that they exterminated Xendor's Dark Jedi - the same way they thought they had exterminated the Sith in the Battle of Ruusan.

3. Ok, the Sith Empire was not as large as you think it was. It was described as 'small.' with only about, what, 15 worlds?

Yeah. Right. They expanded for 20,000 years or - use you own (wrong) figure if you want - 2,000 years and they only conquered 15 planets ? Use some logic please...

And when a GALAXY'S WORTH OF VONG SURROUNDS YOU you think you can escape at all? A force capable of defeating MILLIONS of worlds to your paltry little empire that couldn't beat three planets?

That little Empire that couldn't defeat heavy fortified worlds defended by Jedi ? Uh...when did the Vong took a world that was defended by force users easily ? When did they destroy "millions" of worlds ?

The Sith were practically democratic! They talked of 'electing' Ludo to
the position of Dark Lord and they NEVER FOUGHT anyone who wasn't Sith. the first time they tried they were EXTERMINATED. The Sith were terrified of the idea of an enemy who could reach them and they couldn't sense when only Simus was murdered with his escort. They were terrified and panicked enemies had arrived from a place alien to them and that they didn't sense them. Their entire purpose, Ragnos and Kressh, was PRESERVING the race...the Sith factions will never stay together if some idiot Sith begins blowing up their worlds, damaging their beloved empire and losing resources...every last world of the Sith empire was vital to them

That paragraph is filled with so much dumb interpretations that I can't answer them all.
First they weren't democratic. They had this nice little rule that "the strongest should reign" over the Empire meaning the strongest had to prove he was the strongest. This is why Ragnos kept them under his belt for more than a century and why they didn't "elect" a new Dark Lord directly after Ragnos death - because Kressh and Sadow were basically equal.
And the Sith were afraid about an attack of the Republic or specifically the Jedi because the Jedi had defeated their ancestors. And nothing else...if non force users attack them, and especially none force users who threat force users as if they are Gods the Sith don't have any reason to be afraid.

Moreover, as closely compacted as the Sith worlds are, with maybe two big stars, what will supernovaing one do the empire? It'd vaporize half the system.

It'll vaporize the entire Vong fleet and there is more than "one" system. I wonder why you still don't get it...

And the Star Forge? Nope, didn't have it. That they ever did was a complete error. That it could POSSIBLY be in Naga's tomb is an error. that Naga could have a tomb? An error. Korriban in that game was one big mistake. Where was the Star Forge during ragnos's reign then? Would've helped Naga, especially since he had a map in his TOMB! The idea they had a Star Forge is ludicrous beyond believe, especially considering the errors involved in Sadow's tomb. I'm sure they had time to build him one in the two days of his lordship before he got the Empire exterminated....I'm sure Ludo would've approved of a tomb being built to honor Naga

It doesn't matter how many errors there are. Ajunta Pall did know about the Star Forge and he was one of the Ancient Sith Lords. If you're talking about the ENTIRE empire from it's beginning to it's end they'll have the Star Forge. And that was what I was talking about.

And minor force users? Please....back that up.

You did notice that the entire Sith species - even back in their "primitive days" - were force users ? The Sith Lords are just the most powerful of them. And the Sith Lords are just "a small bit" below your beloved Sidious when it comes to force powers (in the worst case for my argumentation that the quote of Anderson actually exists).

And by the way, Yammosks have to shown to pierce illusions. They're extremely dangerous creatures and war coordinators with a talent for breaking people and piercing through the Force. And time to think about what's real and not? Their idea will be 'attack and kill what we see, worry about details later.' If it even comes down to a hand to hand...and that's in case they decide to let the MEditation sphere stand

Again talking about a meditation sphere that isn't needed ? And the point was that they have to attack the illusions to figure out if they are illusions or not.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Tahiri was NOT an ordinary Jedi at the time and was more in touch with the Vong than anyone else....and Ganner, like Anakin was opened up completely to the Force itself. He'd ceased to become Ganner.

And you're forgetting this need never come down to a melee fight. Those big mutated ones didn't do too well either.

At that time, Tahiri was weak. She was an apprentice still, not even a Knight. And who is to say the Ancient Sith can't do what Ganner did? Many people have done it.

The Sith can use the Yuuzhan Vong technology against them. They can flip the dovin basal shields back at Yuuzhan Vong ships, destroying the ship in minutes. Mutiply this by 20, and the largest Yuuzhan Vong battle fleet, which was about 500 capital ships, will be destroyed in less then an hour. Significantly weaker force users, like Rarnay Thul, was able to bend turbolaser beams away from his ship, a far more difficult feat then turning plasma away. The Vong can't win. Nothing short of the Empire hitting the Sith with superweapons could destroy them, especially when the Ancient Sith feel threatened by an outside force like the Vong.

The Ancient Sith, when threatened by outside forces, break down in terror and confusion, they don't have a good track record....and Luke's order of Jedi tends to be significantly stronger than the rest.

Now, Bor:
1. In a fleet battle, Sith would be exterminated. Their ships and fighting strategies involved 'rush and hope we hit something' and.....well, that was it. They were cowardly with no finesse at all.

2. Good thing the number of Vong are about a billion to one in their favor....you think they wouldn't start killing Sith eventually? This 'Ancients were godly' thing has got to stop. And when have Sith LITERALLY moved faster than the eye can detect? No hyperbole, no metaphor, stated in clear black and white

3. Retconned then. Take it up with Dan Wallace. And since the last battle of the Lettow was NOT the Battle of Corbos were the Dark Jedi were exiled and didn't 'flee'...

4. Take it up with Golden Age of the Sith. The Sith had remained in their own space and had never ventured into unknown regions since the dark Jedi'd arrived. Hence Naga's frustration

5. Give me a -So, one of them screaming "The Republic! The Republic has come to kill us!" And another howling "Why couldn't we sense them?!" Another: "Are our powers in the Force weakening?!" They were terrified at the prospect of two scouts from the Republic and they didn't even remember what the Jedi WERE until Gav and Jori brought it up. And where's this 'the strong ruled' rule come from anyways? Ludo says himself either he and Naga will be elected Dark Lord and it takes Sadow finally challenging him....when they promptly abandon the fight.

6. The Sith never faced a single Jedi on Koros Major, one Jedi on Kirrek and four Jedi on Coruscant....all of their forces couldn't defeat five Jedi. I tremble.

7. Vaporize the Vong fleet? The Sith empire had....two stars? Three maybe? The entire Vong fleet wouldn't even FIT into Sith space-and yeah, they could take millions of worlds. They took half the galaxy. Once more: The sith failed to take Coruscant in infantile stages. Vong took it in a firmly stronger age. The Sith failed to take the Empress Teta system. The Vong took over Hutt space and beat the Hapans and fought the Chiss AND took the Tetans worlds. You think the Sith would have the guts to vaporize their empire? And do what then? And opposed to a force they can't sense in the force that'll begin tossing moons at their worlds, destroying their entire system.

8. Error in the game. How'd the Star Forge map get into Naga Sadow's tomb now? And the Star Forge would be pitifully easy to destroy. They'd only have to divert gravity and sending it into Rakata

9. The Sith species was force sensitive with no knowledge of their power until the Dark Jedi arrived.

10. The second the Vong attack the meditation sphere, those illusions are gone was my point.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
The Ancient Sith, when threatened by outside forces, break down in terror and confusion, they don't have a good track record....and Luke's order of Jedi tends to be significantly stronger than the rest.

No. Wrong. When they are threatened by Jedi. And when they fight against Jedi. Luke's entire order of Jedi tends to be stronger than what exactly ? Other Jedi ? Ok. Sith Lords ? Did you miss the fact that the NJO people seem to be that powerful because they use stuff invented by the Sith ?

Now, Bor:
1. In a fleet battle, Sith would be exterminated. Their ships and fighting strategies involved 'rush and hope we hit something' and.....well, that was it. They were cowardly with no finesse at all.

Again: Bias. Give me some proof that not a single Sith would be able to use "tactics". May I remind you that the Vong got crushed pretty much when Ackbar got involved. They don't have any military genious behind their plans either.

2. Good thing the number of Vong are about a billion to one in their favor....you think they wouldn't start killing Sith eventually? This 'Ancients were godly' thing has got to stop. And when have Sith LITERALLY moved faster than the eye can detect? No hyperbole, no metaphor, stated in clear black and white

Was that you who argued that I'm not the one to question the ideas SW EU authors have for their creations. Anderson descripes the Ancient Sith as "godlike" (literally) in the narration of the TOTJ comics and therefore they are. Period. And because you want to assume that they can't move that fast they simply can't ? Force speed is some basic ability and they'll be able to use it. I wonder how something that can't be seen would look in a comic...rofl...

3. Retconned then. Take it up with Dan Wallace. And since the last battle of the Lettow was NOT the Battle of Corbos were the Dark Jedi were exiled and didn't 'flee'...

I don't need to take it up with Dan Wallace since you have nothing except the fact that some people after the battle of Corbos went to the Sith Empire. Where is you source that their weren't Dark Jedi after the first great shism went there ? That somebody in the Han Solo trilogy thinks all of Xendor's followers were extinct when you know that this is wrong because at least his lover escaped ? So you use a statement which is false anyway to argue starwars.com and therefore Lucasfilm ?

4. Take it up with Golden Age of the Sith. The Sith had remained in their own space and had never ventured into unknown regions since the dark Jedi'd arrived. Hence Naga's frustration

They didn't travel into Republic space but as you might see when you look onto a map of the Star Wars Galaxy their are tons of worlds apart from Republic space. They feared to expand their Empire over a certain point because being afraid to hit Republic space yet there is much space in the oposite direction to conquer in case you haven't noticed...

5. Give me a -So, one of them screaming "The Republic! The Republic has come to kill us!" And another howling "Why couldn't we sense them?!" Another: "Are our powers in the Force weakening?!" They were terrified at the prospect of two scouts from the Republic and they didn't even remember what the Jedi WERE until Gav and Jori brought it up. And where's this 'the strong ruled' rule come from anyways? Ludo says himself either he and Naga will be elected Dark Lord and it takes Sadow finally challenging him....when they promptly abandon the fight.

Yeah. They were screaming "the Republic" and not "oh my god...some unknown enemy..." See the difference ?
And now you're pwning yourself again. The strongest shall rule is not a valid rule ? Then please tell me why Sadow has to challenge Kressh for the title of a Dark Lord in a fight ? Because the strongest politician rules, eh ? And they promptly abandoned the fight because Ragnos spirit shows up and told them to stop...

6. The Sith never faced a single Jedi on Koros Major, one Jedi on Kirrek and four Jedi on Coruscant....all of their forces couldn't defeat five Jedi. I tremble.

Yeah. Again the entire Jedi Order was on vacation on the other side of the Galaxy because we only see four people...
I've only seen less than a dozen Jedi fighting Anakin and his clone troopers when he attacks the temple in ROTS. And I've only seen 50 Clone Troopers. Does that mean there weren't more Jedi / Clones ?

7. Vaporize the Vong fleet? The Sith empire had....two stars? Three maybe? The entire Vong fleet wouldn't even FIT into Sith space-and yeah, they could take millions of worlds. They took half the galaxy.

The Sith Empire had "hundrets of planets" on which people lived which does - in terms of the SW universe - mean they had control over dozens of star systems. The Vong fleet wouldn't fit into Sith space ? What do you think how many ships you can fit into a single solar system ?
And they took half the Galaxy ? I wonder how they did manage to kill only 365 Trillion beings while doing so when Coruscant alone has 1 Trillion inhabitants...

Once more: The sith failed to take Coruscant in infantile stages. Vong took it in a firmly stronger age.

You're still missing the fact that Coruscant in the NJO didn't have thousands of force users on the planet.

The Sith failed to take the Empress Teta system. The Vong took over Hutt space and beat the Hapans and fought the Chiss AND took the Tetans worlds. You think the Sith would have the guts to vaporize their empire? And do what then? And opposed to a force they can't sense in the force that'll begin tossing moons at their worlds, destroying their entire system.

I've explained that before and since you seem as you don't want to read it anyway I won't explain it again...

8. Error in the game. How'd the Star Forge map get into Naga Sadow's tomb now? And the Star Forge would be pitifully easy to destroy. They'd only have to divert gravity and sending it into Rakata

Of course...but first, I fear, they would have to find it. And "error in the game" ? How can something that is only mentioned in a game (Ajunta Pall and the Star Forge) can be some error in the continuity if it can't be contradicted ?

9. The Sith species was force sensitive with no knowledge of their power until the Dark Jedi arrived.

Wrong. They just didn't use their power in a way Jedi would do it. The Witches of Dathomir as well as the Miraluka or the Rakata were all force sensitive and used the force but different from the Jedi. The Sith did it with "spell casting" but they still used it.

10. The second the Vong attack the meditation sphere, those illusions are gone was my point.

The meditation sphere which isn't needed to create illusions ?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
The Ancient Sith, when threatened by outside forces, break down in terror and confusion, they don't have a good track record....and Luke's order of Jedi tends to be significantly stronger than the rest.

When did they break down in terror and confusion? If they were so scared, why did they pwn the Empress Teta system for so long? When has Luke's Order ever done anything on the scale of the Ancient Sith?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Now, Bor:
1. In a fleet battle, Sith would be exterminated. Their ships and fighting strategies involved 'rush and hope we hit something' and.....well, that was it. They were cowardly with no finesse at all.

Sidious was a coward too. Or wait, is it really cowardice or rather the intent of putting your life on the line as few times as possible?

Like I said, the Ancient Sith can turn the dovin basals back on the Yuuzhan Vong ships can they would be able to take out the largest Yuuzhan Vong fleet we saw(500 capital ships) in less then an hour using less then three hundred men.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
2. Good thing the number of Vong are about a billion to one in their favor....you think they wouldn't start killing Sith eventually? This 'Ancients were godly' thing has got to stop. And when have Sith LITERALLY moved faster than the eye can detect? No hyperbole, no metaphor, stated in clear black and white

You do realize that each Sith is worth tens of billion of Vong, don't you? They can attack a worldship. Whenever the Vong use a dovin basal

Originally posted by Lightsnake
3. Retconned then. Take it up with Dan Wallace. And since the last battle of the Lettow was NOT the Battle of Corbos were the Dark Jedi were exiled and didn't 'flee'...

What makes you think that is official?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
4. Take it up with Golden Age of the Sith. The Sith had remained in their own space and had never ventured into unknown regions since the dark Jedi'd arrived. Hence Naga's frustration

That doesn't mean they weren't accomplished warriors. There were plenty of civil wars when they weren't united against a common enemy.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
5. Give me a -So, one of them screaming "The Republic! The Republic has come to kill us!" And another howling "Why couldn't we sense them?!" Another: "Are our powers in the Force weakening?!" They were terrified at the prospect of two scouts from the Republic and they didn't even remember what the Jedi WERE until Gav and Jori brought it up. And where's this 'the strong ruled' rule come from anyways? Ludo says himself either he and Naga will be elected Dark Lord and it takes Sadow finally challenging him....when they promptly abandon the fight.

Lets see, who did the Ancient Sith fight last time? Was it the people who could defeat Leviathans in combat? Was it the people from the Hundred Year Darkness, who made the other people seem weak? Was it the same people who the Vong are not? The same people are as far as we know unrivaled by Jedi from any other area? Yes, it was. They didn't know what it was that they were going to be fighting.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
6. The Sith never faced a single Jedi on Koros Major, one Jedi on Kirrek and four Jedi on Coruscant....all of their forces couldn't defeat five Jedi. I tremble.

Were all their forces fighting just five Jedi or are you subject to hyperbole?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
7. Vaporize the Vong fleet? The Sith empire had....two stars? Three maybe? The entire Vong fleet wouldn't even FIT into Sith space-and yeah, they could take millions of worlds. They took half the galaxy. Once more: The sith failed to take Coruscant in infantile stages. Vong took it in a firmly stronger age. The Sith failed to take the Empress Teta system. The Vong took over Hutt space and beat the Hapans and fought the Chiss AND took the Tetans worlds. You think the Sith would have the guts to vaporize their empire? And do what then? And opposed to a force they can't sense in the force that'll begin tossing moons at their worlds, destroying their entire system.

Actually it would, I suggest you check you estimates next time.
Also note that the Vong took a little less then a third of the galaxy. Again, I tell you to check your estimates.
The Sith wanted to take Coruscant intact, the Vong planned on destroying everything that was previously on it. There is a world of a difference there.
The Sith don't need to destroy their own worlds. They can destroy the Vong ones easily in a worst case scenario. Before that they would destroy the Vong with other techniques that cause less damage to the galaxy itself.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
8. Error in the game. How'd the Star Forge map get into Naga Sadow's tomb now? And the Star Forge would be pitifully easy to destroy. They'd only have to divert gravity and sending it into Rakata

Because it was put there. The Infinite Empire once inhabited Korriban, but the Sith defeated the 500 Empire world and reclaimed their worlds.

That's assuming they can get in close enough. The Vong use dovin basals to control gravity. Gravity that is affected by the force. The Sith can rather easily turn it back on the ship generating it, destroying the Vong vessel with no damage done to the Star Forge.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
9. The Sith species was force sensitive with no knowledge of their power until the Dark Jedi arrived.

Any proof of this? Just because a Jedi faction wasn't there doesn't mean they didn't understand their power. Look at the Sorcerers of Tund or the Jensaari, for example.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
10. The second the Vong attack the meditation sphere, those illusions are gone was my point.

Assuming they ever make it to it. It would be easy for Naga to make several thousand illusions of his sphere while the other Sith bend away the Vong plasma fire with the force(because it is affected by the force and the power of the Ancient Sith this will be easy for a modest Sith Lord) and then turning the dovin basals back onto the Vong ships, destroying any enemy fleet in impunity.

For both of you, I'm getting tired of continuosuly writing replies to both:

1. When do the NJO fighters use what the Sith invented?

2. Considering everyone seems so hung up on how Anderson tells and doesn't show....I'm sure they were godlike until Naga ruined them completely.

3. The last battle of the Legions of Lettow was not the battle of Corbos. End of story. Arden Lyn was put out of comission for 25,000 years and one person is not the Legions of Lettow. I'm afraid you DO need to take it up with dan because he wrote the Essential Chronology. An officially licensed book, whereas your quotes just says "Well....it happened." Not when. and the Dark Jedi were actually exiled, not 'thought dead.'

4. Look at another map: Sith space has Empress Teta to the right, Republic anywhere else.

5. Wow, great Sith, stopped by a dead guy and don't bother to rESUME the fight after Ragnos tells them the winner will make the history of the Empire. And once more: Why does Ludo speak of being 'elected?'

6. Well, the Ancient Sith hadn't fought.....anyone in 2000 or as you say, 25,000 years. They hadn't left their own space in all that time. Kressh says that himself.

7. Stop avoiding this and face it: THE SITH WERE DESTROYED ON THREE WORLDS! Anderson never even HINTS there were mroe than five Jedi fighting the Vong and ONLY Odan and Ooroo were on Kirrek, there wasn't a single Jedi on Koros Major and four of them led the attack on Coruscant. That's all that was seen, two of those were confirmed facts in the comic....We saw a Sith lord killed by angry prisoners...And yes, he was a Lord, we saw him at the council next to Shar Dakhan

8. The Sith tried to take Korriban INTACT? Explains why they started firing at it indiscrimately....Sadow wasn't interested in preservation, he said they'd level everything to make way for the new empire.

9. Thousands of Force Users on Coruscant? You'll need proof now.

10. Where did the Miraluka and Dathomiri learn to 'spellcast?' The Jedi? The Miraluka were close with the Order. The Dathomiri were taught by a former Jedi knight and her daughters. The Jensaari were founded by an Anzati Dark Jedi...

11. More continuity errors from KOTOR. This 'Infinity Empire' thing flies in the face of the Sith empire as is. And since it blatantly contradicts sources from the Chronology even before the New One...

12. Umm....the Meditation sphere is what's needed to create illusions. It amplies the illusions to the degree Naga needed.

And Glentract... one Sith lord worth a billion of Vong? That doesn't help your credibility. What 'Other techniques' would the Sith use on the Vong? Direct Force attacks...canonically stated not to work...Naga Sadow COULDN'T 'bend plasma' away. And dovin basals, by your own words, create very small black holes that can be shut off in an instant. Plenty civil wars? Proof.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
For both of you, I'm getting tired of continuosuly writing replies to both:

1. When do the NJO fighters use what the Sith invented?

They learned some things that the Sith had from the Massassi Temples and have also indugled in the Darkside.

Your turn, when has Luke's Order ever done anything on the scale of the Ancient Sith?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
2. Considering everyone seems so hung up on how Anderson tells and doesn't show....I'm sure they were godlike until Naga ruined them completely.

And Naga was at the very end of the Empire. Okay. That means a lot for everyone before him.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
4. Look at another map: Sith space has Empress Teta to the right, Republic anywhere else.

I don't get this. Next time take the effort to write seperate replies for each post. If you can't do that, don't bother to stick around.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
5. Wow, great Sith, stopped by a dead guy and don't bother to rESUME the fight after Ragnos tells them the winner will make the history of the Empire. And once more: Why does Ludo speak of being 'elected?'

Ludo didn't want to fight. Just like Sidious didn't want to fight. It's not a sign of weakness, it is one of intelligence.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
6. Well, the Ancient Sith hadn't fought.....anyone in 2000 or as you say, 25,000 years. They hadn't left their own space in all that time. Kressh says that himself.

Stop ignoring what everyone else is telling you or you should shove off. The Sith fought each other when they didn't have an outside foe. This kept them at their peak at all times, later Jedi didn't have this.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
7. Stop avoiding this and face it: THE SITH WERE DESTROYED ON THREE WORLDS! Anderson never even HINTS there were mroe than five Jedi fighting the Vong and ONLY Odan and Ooroo were on Kirrek, there wasn't a single Jedi on Koros Major and four of them led the attack on Coruscant. That's all that was seen, two of those were confirmed facts in the comic....We saw a Sith lord killed by angry prisoners...And yes, he was a Lord, we saw him at the council next to Shar Dakhan

How did the Sith threaten a several thousand world Republic with just three worlds?

BTW, your ignorance is showing. I can name more then 3 worlds off the top of my head. All were controlled by the Sith: Khar Delba, Korriban, Korriz, Malachor V, Ziost, and Arkania. How many Vong planets can you name? There were maybe 20 planets named in the entire conflict. That doesn't mean there weren't other planets under their control. Same with the Ancient Sith Empire.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
8. The Sith tried to take Korriban INTACT? Explains why they started firing at it indiscrimately....Sadow wasn't interested in preservation, he said they'd level everything to make way for the new empire.

Do you really think he was being literal? If so he would have simply destroyed the star of the system and then rebuilt the planet out of the ashes of the old one.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
9. Thousands of Force Users on Coruscant? You'll need proof now.

Once again we see the problems of you being lazy. I don't know what you are referring to.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
10. Where did the Miraluka and Dathomiri learn to 'spellcast?' The Jedi? The Miraluka were close with the Order. The Dathomiri were taught by a former Jedi knight and her daughters. The Jensaari were founded by an Anzati Dark Jedi...

They weren't necessarily taught by them. They had their bloodlines, but they weren't trained by them.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
11. More continuity errors from KOTOR. This 'Infinity Empire' thing flies in the face of the Sith empire as is. And since it blatantly contradicts sources from the Chronology even before the New One...

How does it do this?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
12. Umm....the Meditation sphere is what's needed to create illusions. It amplies the illusions to the degree Naga needed.

And he can make a million illusions of the sphere while at the same time making illusions of other ships, making it almost impossible for the Sith to lose. They can also build more spheres and they have plenty of people that can use the spheres. All of that is after the Vong figgure out what to attack to make the illusion. Also note that the illusions can be used to send the Vong into shock as what happened to the Tetan guards from Aleema's illusions.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And Glentract... one Sith lord worth a billion of Vong? That doesn't help your credibility. What 'Other techniques' would the Sith use on the Vong? Direct Force attacks...canonically stated not to work...Naga Sadow COULDN'T 'bend plasma' away. And dovin basals, by your own words, create very small black holes that can be shut off in an instant. Plenty civil wars? Proof.

KOTOR 2, the Sith were at war whenever there wasn't an outside threat. There is your proof.

When did I ever say that they could be turned off in an instance. If they could, the Vong would have turned them off when the Jedi began using the tactic I am talking about, but they did not, so therefor it will take a lot of proof from you too prove that they could.

I acutally said billions, not a billion. One billion is far to little. A worldship carries several dozen million Vong. Two Sith Lords, working in concert, can deflect the plasma fire with the force because the plasma is derrived from regular rocks and has a force presence, and the other can bend the black hole back onto the Worldship. The ship is sucked into it's own shield and is destryed. Easy as pie.

Glen, I'm /really/ having some issues right now and I can't continue this, can we end it please? I do realize you said that billions comment just to irritate me, however, I REALLY can't continue this anymore thanks to outside problems. If you get back on IM, then we'll talk

We can take a break for a while, sure. But unless you are willing to admit you are mistaken, I'm going to keep going until you just stop posting about this subject. I don't like to talk on IM because it goes away whenever you close the window and it's still screwed up on my computer.

Edit: And no, the billions thing was not just to irritate you, I really think, and have shown, that they could take that many of them.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. When do the NJO fighters use what the Sith invented?

They use Dark Side abilities and those are all invented by Sith...

2. Considering everyone seems so hung up on how Anderson tells and doesn't show....I'm sure they were godlike until Naga ruined them completely.

Would you please stop using double standarts ? In the Sidious debate Andersons word about the Ancient Sith was the unquestionable truth when contradicting what is shown in the comics. And suddenly it turned into pointless stuff because it's against your opinion ?

3. The last battle of the Legions of Lettow was not the battle of Corbos. End of story. Arden Lyn was put out of comission for 25,000 years and one person is not the Legions of Lettow. I'm afraid you DO need to take it up with dan because he wrote the Essential Chronology. An officially licensed book, whereas your quotes just says "Well....it happened." Not when. and the Dark Jedi were actually exiled, not 'thought dead.

The entire EU is officialy licensed and still Lucasfilm has the final word - and this is Lucasfilm the organisation and not one person working for it. And aren't you able to read ? The quote says "in the early days of the Jedi". Now pick the Essential Chronology and read when the Jedi Order was founded. Ups. I won't call a time roughly 18,000 years after the Jedi Order was founded the "early days".

4. Look at another map: Sith space has Empress Teta to the right, Republic anywhere else.

I wonder how "Empress Teta" can be "to the right of the Sith Empire" if Empress Teta is located in the core world regions near Coruscant and Korriban is at the Outer Rim with the next known Republic planet at least 10,000+ lightyears away. Or do you know more than the Star Wars Insider ?

5. Wow, great Sith, stopped by a dead guy and don't bother to rESUME the fight after Ragnos tells them the winner will make the history of the Empire. And once more: Why does Ludo speak of being 'elected?'

Considering the fact that Freedom Nadd who is far below Ragnos when it comes to power could instakill a force user when he was already dead for 400 years - Ragnos might have done the same. And Ragnos reigned over the Empire for more than a century. Don't you think Sadow and Kressh would listen to him ?
And "elected" in this case means "accepted as being the strongest". It's not "democracy" because otherwise somebody hated like Ragnos wouldn't have stayed Dark Lord for more than a century.

6. Well, the Ancient Sith hadn't fought.....anyone in 2000 or as you say, 25,000 years. They hadn't left their own space in all that time. Kressh says that himself.

First they conquered other planets and I don't think they simply came in and took over even if the planets were inhabited by relative primitive people. And they fought against each other constantly and had civil wars going on.

7. Stop avoiding this and face it: THE SITH WERE DESTROYED ON THREE WORLDS! Anderson never even HINTS there were mroe than five Jedi fighting the Vong and ONLY Odan and Ooroo were on Kirrek, there wasn't a single Jedi on Koros Major and four of them led the attack on Coruscant. That's all that was seen, two of those were confirmed facts in the comic....We saw a Sith lord killed by angry prisoners...And yes, he was a Lord, we saw him at the council next to Shar Dakhan

When will you ever get it: Coruscant was the heart of the Jedi Order with the nice little Jedi temple standing there. So their have to be more than four Jedi at the place unless they were all on vacation on the other side of the Galaxy. And two Jedi should be able to stop armies of Sith / Massasi ? Yeah...right...use some logic...

8. The Sith tried to take Korriban INTACT? Explains why they started firing at it indiscrimately....Sadow wasn't interested in preservation, he said they'd level everything to make way for the new empire.

This is why he didn't just blow the entire system up when he clearly was able to do that, right ?

9. Thousands of Force Users on Coruscant? You'll need proof now.

And again: The Jedi temple is located on Coruscant and standing there ever since the Republic was founded meaning for 20,000 years when Sadow came there. So their had to be more than four Jedi present. And don't try to argue that with "Ossus was the main temple" - that was just a museum world with some training facility.

10. Where did the Miraluka and Dathomiri learn to 'spellcast?' The Jedi? The Miraluka were close with the Order. The Dathomiri were taught by a former Jedi knight and her daughters. The Jensaari were founded by an Anzati Dark Jedi...

How the hell can Jedi teach things they don't use theirselves ? If Jedi taught the Witches of Dathomir everything they would use the force like Jedi do - they don't. Same goes with the Miraluka. And same counts for the Sith. They used the force like some Wizard would use magic...casting spells. Or they did it using rituals. Point is: They used it.

11. More continuity errors from KOTOR. This 'Infinity Empire' thing flies in the face of the Sith empire as is. And since it blatantly contradicts sources from the Chronology even before the New One...

Where does it contradict something ? The Infinite Empire existed before the Republic and most of it's space was located in the Outer Rim territory.

12. Umm....the Meditation sphere is what's needed to create illusions. It amplies the illusions to the degree Naga needed.

They don't need illusions on the degree Naga created. And how would the Vong figure out what they have to shoot down to destroy the illusions ?

And Glentract... one Sith lord worth a billion of Vong? That doesn't help your credibility. What 'Other techniques' would the Sith use on the Vong? Direct Force attacks...canonically stated not to work...Naga Sadow COULDN'T 'bend plasma' away. And dovin basals, by your own words, create very small black holes that can be shut off in an instant. Plenty civil wars? Proof.

It's getting better and better.
Canonically force attacks do work on the Vong as we have seen people using force attack on them. Still throwing a planet at them or the core of a star would do some nice destruction without having them affected directly through the force.
Naga Sadow can do whatever he likes to do. Plasma is affected by the force and weighs nothing so technically the Sith Lords can throw it right back onto the Vong if they like.
The dovin basals can be affected by the force as we have seen Luke and Kyp both were doing it. So the Sith can again throw back the "black holes" at the Vong.

I REALLY can't continue this anymore thanks to outside problems.

The debate won't be deleted if you don't post in it for 10 minutes...and nobody forces you to do that immediatly when somebody replies.

Bor, I'm not killing the debate, I'm just asking if we can break from it for a bit

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Bor, I'm not killing the debate, I'm just asking if we can break from it for a bit

Sure we can. But as I said: You don't have to ask. If you have no time for posting at the moment nobody forces you to do so. 😉

Certainly...I still say you should get AIM or MSN....afterall, someone with Raistlin in their sig can't be all bad

Originally posted by Borbarad
Sure we can. But as I said: You don't have to ask. If you have no time for posting at the moment nobody forces you to do so. 😉

(Puts away gun) Okay, now no one is making you post. 😛

This was a good topic.
The Sith have the advantage with their superweapons and willingness to use them.
It should be noted that Sadow's ship was apparently just another Battleship and the Dark Side Sourcebook says the Sith had around a hundred of them.

Define 'superweapons'.