The Ancient Sith Empire vs. The Yuuzhan Vong

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. And Mace didn't hit his lightsaber peak for years and years after that. It's not exactly uncommon to craft a saber by that age...

It's uncommon to create a fighting style being 13 years old and have several thousand people around you who can't match you in a lightsaber fight. And it's totally uncommon to craft a saber in that age since this is part of the Jedi trials and normally people do that in their 20s - see Obi-Wan.

2. When you have a race totally dependant on the Dark Side and its dominance and they realize they can't sense a massive enemy fleet through it....and considering the Sith were utter cowards when things didn't go their way. Just look at Sadow and Kressh. And the competence level wasn't high...Sadow made GAV DARAGON fleet commander...

You still don't get it. As long as they can fight and kill people it won't matter if they can sense them or not. I don't see them running aways because they can't sense what the can kill...

3. Logical fallacy and KOTOR error as Sadow didn't even HAVE a tomb....hell, the Tetans were attacking the Empire and Sadow's corpse wasn't recovered.

I know some tombs and graves which have no bodies in them. Not very uncommon.

4. Fifty Sith Lords who'd be massively outnumbered by the crew of a YV ship who wouldn't be intimidated by illusions, who'd have a large number of Chazrach slaves and thud and razor bugs to launch at them, not to mention Yammosks. And there'd have to be a strong Sith Lord in a meditation sphere nearbye....are the Vong pilots going to let it sit there? They'd be more likely to blast it to pieces. Otherwise the Vong'd be noticing which enemies the amphistaff slices through and which it doesn't.

3 Jedi (Jacen, Jaina and Luke) were also heavily outnumbered and they just kicked through the Vong HQ and Luke - according to Jaina - did all the work. Well...now NJO Luke is more powerful than 50 Sith Lords combined ? Interesting...

5. Other fighters who'd have needed to kill eight warriors in seconds...well, would've helped Exar Kun on Coruscant...would've been a huge aid to Darth Malak and Darth Vader...Kyle Katarn, too

Was Exar in any trouble on Coruscant in which he needed to kill 8 elite fighters in seconds ? Where would it had helped Malak or Vader (Vader just went and sliced the entire Jedi temple into pieces...) and Kyle Katarn who - without any training - killed 7 Dark Jedi personaly trained by Palpatine not to mention that he took down an entire Imperial Base without using the force and only left one survivor.

Hmm...I guess there might be tons of people able to reproduce that feat...

5. Arden Lyn was Xendor's lover who was put into a 25 thou year sleep. What's hard about that?

Somehow she did survive Xendor's defeat and that means that some of the Dark Jedi did escape from Republic's space and did go where ? A yes. And I don't have to prove things if you only estimate that x sources must be wrong because you have one source supporting your own ideas. Not that it would even matter since 2000 years (or 80 generations) of the Sith Empire are still enough to kick some Vong around.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. You asked for proof. specify what you want proof on.

2. Lucas vetoed things in the Thrawn trilogy too. He enjoyed Dark Empire so much he gave a copy to all his employees as a Christmas gift.
If you want people who can confirm it:
TheForce.net
http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/gentopic.php?board=223

3. Dark Tide ain't Dark Empire. And 'not real black holes' what?

4. Luke produced enough fleet illusions to last through a massive battle...unlike Sadow, his concentration was never broken during the fight and the illusions lasted as long as Luke wanted, which is more than can be said for Naga.

1. Your arguments.
2. Doesn't mean Luke is stronger then Ragnos.
3. Nor does it need to be. Why did you say that? They were similar to black holes created by Dovin Basals. An AT-AT could have blasted through them.
4. Excuse me? Naga created 9 fleets of illusions. When did Luke ever create a huge illusion since in DN he was swelled up and Ben asked if he was sick after he made an illusion of one ship. Naga's did it on a far larger scale and was less tired after.

1. Erm....Mace didn't create Vaapad till he was in his thirties....I think that's mentioned in Shatterpoint, after all, Sora helped him...
2. That they won't be able to sense them at first will take them back quite a bit, however. Sith are cowardly by nature and in a fight where they can't tell exactly what their enemy'll do next?
3. When would the Sith, when they were wiped off the faces of Korriban and Ziost, thanks to Naga's folly have time to build him a grand tomb?
4. An entire army of Vong aboard the cruiser focused TOTALLY on them? If the Sith did win this, the Vong'd just blow up their ship....or slam it into a Sith one...This is assuming the Sith can get through them...We're talming an entire army focused on fifty Sith who have not shown themselves to be great fighters.

5. I'd have thought Exar finishing off Cay Qel-Droma, along with Vodo, Nomi Sunrider, Sylvar, Tott Doneeta.....well, that'd be somewhat of a priority...would've gone over well considering most of those Jedi were responsible for his eventual downfall on all fronts. And they made novellas of Dark Forces, you know. we know exactly how Kyle killed the Dark siders...and Palpatine didn't train them. Lord Cronal and Jerec did....hell, Palpatine never trusted Jerec whatsoever

6. Arden killed a Jedi knight at the end of the war, who froze her body in a deathlike slumber for 25,000 years. And 2000 years enough to finish twenty thousand years of Vong who can populate a galaxy next to a small empire? The Vong can give a thousand fighters for every Sith Lord and still come out on top. And it need never come to a hand to hand. This can be done completely tactically. And fleetwise, the Sith are completely inferior. And one source supporting my stuff beats zero sources. And the Legions of Lettow were wiped out. Only the survivers of the Battle of Corbos found the Sith.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
1. Your arguments.
2. Doesn't mean Luke is stronger then Ragnos.
3. Nor does it need to be. Why did you say that? They were similar to black holes created by Dovin Basals. An AT-AT could have blasted through them.
4. Excuse me? Naga created 9 fleets of illusions. When did Luke ever create a huge illusion since in DN he was swelled up and Ben asked if he was sick after he made an illusion of [b]one ship. Naga's did it on a far larger scale and was less tired after. [/B]

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. PRovided.

On some occasions. Most of the time your proof is to shaky.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
2. Doesn't mean he's not. Ragnos has done....well, nothing we've ever seen. There's Simus, and showing up around Korriban.....well, that's really it.

I'm not going to restate Ragnos' arguments, it's been done dozens of times, perhaps you should go look for them.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
3. Proof.

The Dark Tide books.

And to turn the tables, when did Luke ever control a real black hole?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
4. in DN? Possibly because he'd been using massive amounts of force? And Sadow himself stated he was amplified by the Meditation Sphere....and nine fleets? Three armies. At best. and notice Luke made it last to however long he wanted and Sadow was interrupted by someone he left in command. And unlike Sadow's illusions, Luke's was created out thin air and completely lifelike. and did we mention never created an illusion that lasted days as Luke's Sith illusion did? Without a meditation sphere? And less tired? Considering we hardly SAW Naga until days afterwards, and he was slumped back in his throne exhausted...

90% of Sadow's forces were stated as illusions. He had a fleet. A the other 90% and you get 9 fleets. It's simple.

Luke was under extreme strain on just one ship and was having extreme difficulty maintaining it. To say he could hold it as long as he wanted is foolish.

When did Luke create this Sith illusion that lasted days?

1. I'll work on that.
2. There's literally nothing Ragnos has been seen doing....that he's fought 'hundreds' is pure conjecture.
3. Dark Tide? I wasn't aware there was a difference between black holes. regular ones are formed when a star collapses under its own weight, dovin basals create one out of the collapse of gravity.
4. During Swarm War when he was creating an illusion without the comfort of a mediation sphere down to every tiny detail. And nine fleets? Just because ninety percent of one fleet is illusion, doesn't mean he's making nine fleets. He wasn't even creating fleets, he was creating unconcrete images of soldiers and projecting them onto the battlefield, thanks to his meditation sphere.

Luke's Sith illusion from Byss

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Erm....Mace didn't create Vaapad till he was in his thirties....I think that's mentioned in Shatterpoint, after all, Sora helped him...

He was already sitting on the Council when he was 28 and yes he did create Vaapad when he was still a Padawan and since he became a Knight at the age of 13 that would be the latest possible age - wouldn't it ? He didn't use it perfectly of course but since Vaapad use requires mastery of other lightsaber styles (form IV, V and VII) he's quite the lightsaber prodigy...

2. That they won't be able to sense them at first will take them back quite a bit, however. Sith are cowardly by nature and in a fight where they can't tell exactly what their enemy'll do next?

If they could always tell what their enemy would do next none of them would have ever been killed in a fight, don't you think so ? And as I said...force lightning and that's the end...

3. When would the Sith, when they were wiped off the faces of Korriban and Ziost, thanks to Naga's folly have time to build him a grand tomb?

When would they have time to built a grand tomb for Ragnos ? Either that takes some years or they can do that in days. Or they just suggested that Sadow was dead anyways and built him a tomb before making Kressh the Dark Lord. Who knows ?

4. An entire army of Vong aboard the cruiser focused TOTALLY on them? If the Sith did win this, the Vong'd just blow up their ship....or slam it into a Sith one...This is assuming the Sith can get through them...We're talming an entire army focused on fifty Sith who have not shown themselves to be great fighters.

An entire army of Vong focused on 3 Jedi didn't stop them, did they ? So as I said: If Luke, Jaina and Jacen can take down thousands of Vong (and Luke doing most of the work) I don't see why 50 Sith Lords shouldn't be able to do that. And no...of course they aren't great fighters - this is why they are descriped as champion warriors, godlike beings and so on and the galaxy feared them - because they are weak idiots.

5. I'd have thought Exar finishing off Cay Qel-Droma, along with Vodo, Nomi Sunrider, Sylvar, Tott Doneeta.....well, that'd be somewhat of a priority...would've gone over well considering most of those Jedi were responsible for his eventual downfall on all fronts.

Again...those are Jedi that would be more powerful than YVs. Still why should he have done that when he had basically no reason to do so ? It's not that they had some "We will be responsible for your downfall" blinking in neon colors on their foreheads.

And they made novellas of Dark Forces, you know. we know exactly how Kyle killed the Dark siders...and Palpatine didn't train them. Lord Cronal and Jerec did....hell, Palpatine never trusted Jerec whatsoever

And who did train Jerec, eh ? They were still Dark Jedi and Kyle killed them without training and you ignored the point that Kyle wasted an entire Imperial Base and some Dark Troopers (ten times as powerful as normal soldiers) without being an "active" force user...

6. Arden killed a Jedi knight at the end of the war, who froze her body in a deathlike slumber for 25,000 years. And 2000 years enough to finish twenty thousand years of Vong who can populate a galaxy next to a small empire?

Oh...I thougt you have just the Vong which are present in NJO times. Well...if you take every YV ever alive the Ancient Sith would have some problem. Still "Look the YV fleet - oh I'll just create some supernova"...boom...

The Vong can give a thousand fighters for every Sith Lord and still come out on top. And it need never come to a hand to hand. This can be done completely tactically. And fleetwise, the Sith are completely inferior. And one source supporting my stuff beats zero sources. And the Legions of Lettow were wiped out. Only the survivers of the Battle of Corbos found the Sith.

Fleetwise the Sith have those nice superweapons around. And the Essential Chronology beats "Masters of Teras Käsi" (Lucas Arts), KotoR, KotoR II, TOTJ, DE and every bit of logic ? Yap...allright.

He was already sitting on the Council when he was 28 and yes he did create Vaapad when he was still a Padawan and since he became a Knight at the age of 13 that would be the latest possible age - wouldn't it ? He didn't use it perfectly of course but since Vaapad use requires mastery of other lightsaber styles (form IV, V and VII) he's quite the lightsaber prodigy...

Umm he created Vapaad in his thirties not when he was a Padawan.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
2. There's literally nothing Ragnos has been seen doing....that he's fought 'hundreds' is pure conjecture.

It is logical from what we know of the Sith ways though.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
3. Dark Tide? I wasn't aware there was a difference between black holes. regular ones are formed when a star collapses under its own weight, dovin basals create one out of the collapse of gravity.

They create super small ones black hole lookalikes. The Dovin Basal black hole is millions of times weaker as a real on would suck up an entire planet that it was created on and the Dovin Basal would eat the ship that made it except for the fact that is it artificial and faces away from the ship, which a real black hole would not do.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
4. During Swarm War when he was creating an illusion without the comfort of a mediation sphere down to every tiny detail. And nine fleets? Just because ninety percent of one fleet is illusion, doesn't mean he's making nine fleets. He wasn't even creating fleets, he was creating unconcrete images of soldiers and projecting them onto the battlefield, thanks to his meditation sphere.

Luke's Sith illusion from Byss

The detail used on Sadows illusions is much greater. Also note that Sadow never had the whole slewwing up experince. Also note that Aleema made huge illusions without a meditation sphere too. It was far from just the sphere. The sphere was a tool to augment his powers, it didn't create them.

Where does the "he created Vaapad in his thirties" stuff come from ?

Originally posted by Borbarad
Where does the "he created Vaapad in his thirties" stuff come from ?

It comes from... Bullshit!

Depa had to know it while Mace was in his 20s, so he must have made it long before then.

Originally posted by Borbarad
He was already sitting on the Council when he was 28 and yes he did create Vaapad when he was still a Padawan and since he became a Knight at the age of 13 that would be the latest possible age - wouldn't it ? He didn't use it perfectly of course but since Vaapad use requires mastery of other lightsaber styles (form IV, V and VII) he's quite the lightsaber prodigy...

If they could always tell what their enemy would do next none of them would have ever been killed in a fight, don't you think so ? And as I said...force lightning and that's the end...

When would they have time to built a grand tomb for Ragnos ? Either that takes some years or they can do that in days. Or they just suggested that Sadow was dead anyways and built him a tomb before making Kressh the Dark Lord. Who knows ?

An entire army of Vong focused on 3 Jedi didn't stop them, did they ? So as I said: If Luke, Jaina and Jacen can take down thousands of Vong (and Luke doing most of the work) I don't see why 50 Sith Lords shouldn't be able to do that. And no...of course they aren't great fighters - this is why they are descriped as champion warriors, godlike beings and so on and the galaxy feared them - because they are weak idiots.

Again...those are Jedi that would be more powerful than YVs. Still why should he have done that when he had basically no reason to do so ? It's not that they had some "We will be responsible for your downfall" blinking in neon colors on their foreheads.

And who did train Jerec, eh ? They were still Dark Jedi and Kyle killed them without training and you ignored the point that Kyle wasted an entire Imperial Base and some Dark Troopers (ten times as powerful as normal soldiers) without being an "active" force user...

Oh...I thougt you have just the Vong which are present in NJO times. Well...if you take every YV ever alive the Ancient Sith would have some problem. Still "Look the YV fleet - oh I'll just create some supernova"...boom...

Fleetwise the Sith have those nice superweapons around. And the Essential Chronology beats "Masters of Teras Käsi" (Lucas Arts), KotoR, KotoR II, TOTJ, DE and every bit of logic ? Yap...allright.

1. He created Vaapad when he was in his thirties...where'd you get the idea it was in his padawanage?
2. Except Edge of Victory book I stated a Dark Sider's FL doesn't work on them. Lomi and Welk used darkside techniques on Voxyn and their own weaponry. And forc elightning won't stop armies...it needs focus on several Vong
3. Ragnos'd have it comissioned when he was still Dark Lord. Sadow was dark lord for a matter of....a day or two. Three at the max. And when he was gone, Ludo Kressh took his spot....I don't see Ludo letting a monument to Naga stand.
4. What entire army of Vong? Luke and the twins were fighting in a massive army battle with numerous others, Luke doing most of the work. The galaxy saw the Sith Empire once. Just once. Then they annihilated them in the matter of a day when the Sith lost their war and got genocided by the Tetans...keep in the mind the Sith didn't have enough force to take Coruscant and Naga has a horrific track record tactically.
5. Jocasta Nu trained Jerec...he was a Jedi of the old Order who was recruited to the Dark Side after the Purge. And in the Dark Forces novellas-Kyle's Canon-he never wastes an imperial base by himself.
6. What logic? KOTOR has other errors, TOTJ never mentions when the Order originated, DE never mentions when the Empire originated...all we know is that Lyn was 'shut down' by the Jedi master she killed and Xendor was slain in the war. The Lettow were destroyed and according to TOTJ the survivors of the 100 years Darkness were the ones who found the primitive, peaceful Sith

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
It is logical from what we know of the Sith ways though.

They create super small ones black hole lookalikes. The Dovin Basal black hole is millions of times weaker as a real on would suck up an entire planet that it was created on and the Dovin Basal would eat the ship that made it except for the fact that is it artificial and faces away from the ship, which a real black hole would not do.

The detail used on Sadows illusions is much greater. Also note that Sadow never had the whole slewwing up experince. Also note that Aleema made huge illusions without a meditation sphere too. It was far from just the sphere. The sphere was a tool to augment his powers, it didn't create them.

1. When he beat Simus, it's probably not a single Sith dared to challenge him.

2. Hm, point them.

3. Sadow's illusions were very undetailed andmainly worked because they came from his imagination and the Meditation sphere projected them. It augmented his strength severely. Aleema's illusions were done a lot differently as she had a talent for manipulating minds...and her illusions tended to be beaten easily by the Jedi. Most of the illusions were pretty...undetailed, though granted that could be the fault of the artist

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. He created Vaapad when he was in his thirties...where'd you get the idea it was in his padawanage?

Where did you get the idea it was in his 30's? I found no mention of that in Shatterpoint.

Notice that he was on the Council by 28, so he had to have been a master before then. 2 ways he could have done this.

1. Made Vapaad and been deemed worthy of the title.
2. Taught it to Depa, who was a master at it. That means he was 28 at the latest when Depa knew it. He wouldn't have taught it to his padawan unless he had tested it on himself for years first.

And wait, why must Depa have known it while Mace was in his twenties? He developed it with Sora Bulq when they were masters together...he sat on the council at the age of thirty...

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Depa had to know it while Mace was in his 20s, so he must have made it long before then.

Hmm...
Mace: 40 years old in TPM
Depa: at least 29 years old in TPM (since Mace with 28 was the youngest person on the Council ever so far)

So Mace must have started training Depa at least 16 years before TPM (when he was 24) and he taught her Vaapad which he must have invented and mastered before. Hmm...I guess the "in his 30s" thing is wrong and you're right but - logic doesn't count much here any longer...

And who says he had to have made Vaapad to get on the council?

2. Who says he taught it to Depa right then and there? Mace was over fifty at the time of the CW...plenty of time to teach Depa.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And wait, why must Depa have known it while Mace was in his twenties? He developed it with Sora Bulq when they were masters together...he sat on the council at the age of thirty...

Because Mace taught it to her when Depa was his Padawan and she was his Padawan at least from his 24th year on...so he must have developed the style at least in his early twenties but since he must have mastered it in order to teach it he must have created it before...

Originally posted by Borbarad
Hmm...
Mace: 40 years old in TPM
Depa: at least 29 years old in TPM (since Mace with 28 was the youngest person on the Council ever so far)

So Mace must have started training Depa at least 16 years before TPM (when he was 24) and he taught her Vaapad which he must have invented and mastered before. Hmm...I guess the "in his 30s" thing is wrong and you're right but - logic doesn't count much here any longer...

Bor....I want proof he invented Vaapad BEFORE he sat on the Council. After all, at that young age, he wouldn't have met Bulq or had Depa as a Padawan