Originally posted by CosmicComet
First off Mindset, don't be slow. Read.I said Gladiator is NOT stronger or faster, not that Adam is better.
(Although he is.)
Glads busted a big rock in space. Black Adam matched Superman in strength. And his strength has been described as possibly above Superman's by other character statements. Even if you don't take it literally, it still undeniably shows that they are at least peers, and that Superman wasn't simply jobbing when they fought--(like he might be jobbing when he fights a Solomon Grundy type.) And Superman's best feats of strength are better than Gladiators. No doubt.
OOOOhhh 100x time light speed in flight statement. Was just waiting for that to show up. That means he can cover in one minute what would take light 100 minutes to cover. That means he can cover one light year in 3.65 days. Light would take over 30 minutes just to get from Jupiter to Earth. And that's just in our tiny little corner of the solar system. Just to give you an idea. Black Adam on the other hand? Has flown from all the way from the other end of the universe to Earth. It took him awhile, but it equates out to much higher than 100x time lightspeed unforuntately. At best, their flight speed is
equal.Nanoseconds, is good. Black Adam is on that same scale.
Black Bolt however? Is not. That's been the point this whole time.
The statement of Glads flying at 100x the speed of light wasn't just hyperbole it was measured by Reed
Originally posted by CosmicCometWell then allow me to return the notion, because I don't see your argument as anything other than an incredibly weak defense that doesn't hold up upon analysis of the characters.
I'm not dealing with it, hence I'm not giving your stance any real weight.
This forum consists of debating comic book characters, and to debate characters means assessing both their powers and their effective uses of them in combat.
Were Superman, Wonder Woman or Flash in this debate, then you could take their effective uses of speed in combat and make a real debate out of that one advantage.
Black Adam however fights like a brick, and he doesn't utilize speed for any significant effect in combat, other than allowing him to get in the first shot and to consistently trade punches and parry blows, which is exactly what would happen here.
Unfortunately, he's up against a character who offers FAR greater damage output, FAR greater versatility, and a strong enough physical offense and defense that it's my opinion that Black Adam will be fighting an uphill battle. This, unfortunately for you, doesn't mean that you can rewrite Black Adam's personality any more than I can argue that Black Bolt would immediately shield, and then matter manipulate the shit out of Black Adam's immediate environment, while screaming in his face and controlling his mind - despite all of those also being well within Black Bolt's demonstrated powerset.
He doesn't fight like that, and Teth doesn't speedblitz at FTL while raining heavy blows and screaming SHAZAM!.
Black Adam will use his speed to get an effective first strike. Unfortunately, he won't continue to pour the speed on, and will make the mistake of giving pause. Black Bolt will shout, cry, whatever- doesn't matter. Whispers have KTFO'd Hulk and Gladiator, and so even if really shouting in his face doesn't knock Teth out, it will certainly send him reeling - giving opportunity for more shouting, for Black Bolt to utilize his own ridiculous strength, or to engage his many, many other options to end this fight efficiently and effectively.
Black Bolt has a decisive edge in this match up because Black Adam fights like an ineffective brick who wouldn't take Black Bolt out before it was too late, and that would only require a moment's hesitation. Black Bolt is vicious, has major range and power with his attacks, and has the durability to withstand that initial onslaught.
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On an aside, do you even know what the word arbitrary means? Or are you just tossing it around, you know... arbitrarily?
Originally posted by CosmicComet
Dude. I know.The point was that 100x lightspeed is not that impressive.
Gladiator, by feats, should be FAR faster than 100x lightspeed in space.
Adam as well, is far above 100x lightspeed in in space.
"Adam as well, is far above 100x lightspeed in in space" Prove it...
Originally posted by Existere
snip for character length.
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Unfortunately I see nothing here but a more long winded regurgitation of what you said before.
The premise of your points are flawed.
For one, we are NOT arguing characters here. We are arguing feats of characters. We are not writers. We are not bound by the restrictions of having to tell a story like they are. And of course such restrictions can cause clashes with prior established facts within continuity. Which is why forums ever created terms like 'CIS', 'PIS', or designations like 'fighting to the best of their ability', or even giving provisions for threads like 'characters get basic knowledge' of each other.
This is to avoid egregious mistakes that writers make in portrayals.
E.G. Not being realistic with their portrayals. Unfortunately writers are paid to entertain first, realism itself is not important. We have NO such hang ups as this. We have to present things realistically, why? Because we are not writing a story. And because by default with the provisions of these threads we are given no reason or context to believe that 'character' should actually be something that's going to feasibly be a factor--afterall, by default we have two characters placed in a featureless environment and from the start they already know that they are in frame of mind where they are fighting to their best, and that they already know from the start that they will be fighting and have a basic knowledge of their opponent. There is nothing there that provides for a story--and thus no reason to even think about character, as we are talking about a hypothetical fight. The default thread settings basically gives us brainwashed characters that are assumed to not even question why they are where they are or why they are facing who they are facing, they just know that they are supposed to go all out and that they know at least basic info about their sudden opponent. (This is by the default mind you.) So forgive me if I find all this 'in-character this in-character that' talk to be a highly flawed premise to even dwell on from the start, because its pretty much a joke within this entire context.
Furthermore, in the end you simply offer one kind of portrayal of Adam in stories. He is not always one to boast, and he has been written as a man of few words and nearly all action in combat as well. (There of course are problems with that, as characters that can talk, are expected to have dialogue, even in fights--lest we get panels and panels of nothing but silent action.) So its hardly 'unrealistic' to even expect him to simply be completely no-nonsense in a hypothetical fight. See the problem here? We reach a stalemate in determining what is 'in-character' or not. I have no such interest in trading 'IMOs' with anyone over and over.
I like to deal with objective fact. Because its quick and inarguable.
Black Adam is far stronger, far more durable, and again most importantly, is quantifiably thousands upon thousands of times faster--in both propulsion and physical speed/reactions.
The facts here, is that your stance has to rely on the possibility that Adam may provide an opening, as you keep illustrating. (As well as the timid sprinkling of 'in my opinion' here and there.) Black Bolt has no means of winning easily based on nothing but his own actions, not even by his more exotic energy manipulation actions. He has to rely on the possibility that Adam may provide him a chance. As for Adam? He has no such factor hinging on his victory. All he has to do is fight his fight.
And let us talk about the fight, even allowing for 'in-character' for a moment.
Adam has all the physical advantages, but speed is the most important one to discuss. Again, Adam is thousands of times faster. He is the kind of character that can literally approach lightspeed on foot. On Earth. A place that's so tiny for lightspeed that it would literally be fast enough to run around the equator about 8 times over in a single second. And yet Adam's brain is still fast enough for him to casually maneuver in such a small area at such speeds. Black Bolt does not come close to this. He is super to hypersonic in flight, and his brain is at best as fast as his flight speed--reflex wise he's literally done nothing that street levelers can't do. So what happens here is that Black Bolt would literally be a statue to Adam in a forum fight. And thus your usage of the term 'moment's hesitation' has little bearing, because what would constitute a 'moment' to Adam is very different from what would constitute a 'moment' for BB. BB may consider a hundredth of a second a 'moment', whereas Adam may consider a nanosecond a 'moment'.
Would the writers know the implications of such a speed differential? Maybe, but they are unlikely to demonstrate it in a high profile fight between two popular characters. We have absolutely no reason to not realistically state such implications of course, as we don't care about the sales of a story as we aren't writing one, we are talking about a hypothetical fight, outside of the confines of writing norms, and thus we have no reason to just capitulate that a fight between two characters who appear to be on a 'similar tier', has to actually be close in a fight just because it 'feels right'. (as a further example, I certainly don't feel like Superman vs Thor has to be a close fight just because it 'feels right' that Thor should be given that respect just because of his tier.)
Moving on, lets go to the shout again. Let's get this out of the way now. Yes, a single shout will not KO Adam. Most certainly not. This is the same guy that wasn't even ko'd from a Tesseract bomb going off in his brain, and likewise CM's entire upper body, head included, got turned inside out by a tesseract bomb and he healed from that in an instant, so Adam's potential regen is immense as well.
BB's whisper/shout won't come close to that kind of trauma, hell, he didn't even break the Hulk's skull with it, and the Hulk was a much 'softer' target durability wise than Adam is. So continuing on with this in-character scenario, Adam gets cocky and gets hit with a shout as you say, and sure, I agree that he might get rattled, but what happens after that? Oh, you know, Adam recovers from it very quickly and gets uber-pissed, and then goes at BB with full murderous intent, and BB won't get another chance to pull another one off due to, again, the immense speed differential. And with that, goes BB's only chance of a possible KO, as he certainly can't do it with his fists--too slow and besides that Adam has a great history of being hard to KO by people in his own strength category, or even people above it (SBP), and BB doesn't come close to parity let alone superiority.
In the end I liked the statement that Black Adam will get the first strike because of his speed and his problem may be that he might not capitalize afterwards. Thanks for the roundabout admission that the only way Black Adam can lose if he's still actually affected by CIS and that Black Bolt has no counter for it. 🙂
Black Adam via speed blitz, combo to ko win against the weaker, softer, and immensely slower Black Bolt, mashing his head into a fine paste.
-If they are fighting 'in-character', Black Adam wins a healthy majority.
-If they are fighting to the 'best of their ability', e.g. Adam's out to kill him as quickly as possible, then Adam wins this 10/10.
I do not expect you will have a counter to the facts that are being presented here, and will continue on with your imaginary character interaction charged vision of how it will play out that will somehow miraculously allow for a Black Bolt majority win--whilst you undermine it by unwittingly admitting that there is no actual counter for the attribute of speed that is being presented here in this scenario; if Black Adam simply decides to fight with no showing off or sandbagging(--which is again hardly unrealistic given his drop of a hat ruthlessness or the by the reality of what assumptions are made in a hypothetical fight where both participants would be assumed to be trying their best to win.)
On an aside, do you even know what the word arbitrary means? Or are you just tossing it around, you know... arbitrarily?
Of course. Anything that has basis in subjective judgement and nothing else is arbitrary. Like how you're arbitrarily choosing to decide what is 'in-character' or not, for whatever is most convenient to fit your end vision of a hypothetical fight. 🙂
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Tony Stark "Adam as well, is far above 100x lightspeed in in space" Prove it...Read. I already did. 100x lightspeed is paltry for cosmic travel.
Originally posted by Prep-Man
I'm not sure if it's Pre-Crisis or not, but an early Black Adam origin had SHAZAM (Who admitted he couldn't harm Adam) BFR him to the farthest reaches of the universe. Black Adam was flying waaay ftl to get back. Bad ass.
Originally posted by CosmicComet
Unfortunately I see nothing here but a more long winded regurgitation of what you said before.The premise of your points are flawed.
For one, we are NOT arguing characters here. We are arguing feats of characters. We are not writers. We are not bound by the restrictions of having to tell a story like they are. And of course such restrictions can cause clashes with prior established facts within continuity. Which is why forums ever created terms like 'CIS', 'PIS', or designations like 'fighting to the best of their ability', or even giving provisions for threads like 'characters get basic knowledge' of each other.
Was going to quote your entire post, but this is the part I really needed to address.
We ARE arguing characters. Powersets and feats contribute to that, but it's the CHARACTERS that come first. Those are the rules.
Adam might be dumb enough to think he can just go in for the killshot from the bat. This would be straight flight toward BB's face aka right for BB Weapon of mass destruction. BB lets loose a scream and it's over.
But if BA actually fights smart (not sure if he is known for his tactics) he would try to dodge the attacks and go in for the attack when there is a opening.
Originally posted by -Pr-
Was going to quote your entire post, but this is the part I really needed to address.We ARE arguing characters. Powersets and feats contribute to that, but it's the CHARACTERS that come first. Those are the rules.
Absolutely not.
And I already addressed why that does not work.
The feats come first. The actual character that drives the feats, comes second.
This is how the mechanic works implicitly even if its not written down specifically as such. Because characters without feats cannot be argued for. Characters with feats but no apparent character, CAN be argued for (e.g. if some random character pops up and destroys everything and then disappears without a word, this character can be argued for.)
Thus, obviously, facts HAVE to come first in any argument. What are the facts? The feats are facts. Subjective considerations, come second, because they are just that, subjective, and without any unquestioning consensus unlike the way we are forced to capitulate to facts. Interpretation of how those feats might be used, are the subjective considerations.
-Character A is thousands of times faster than Character B.
-Character B unfortunately has no counter to this speed.
^Those would be facts.
-Character B may have a chance *if* Character A behaves this specific way.
^That, would be an opinion of a possible interpretation.
Facts come first, obviously.
Originally posted by CosmicComet
Absolutely not.And I already addressed why that does not work.
The feats come first. The actual character that drives the feats, comes second.
This is how the mechanic works implicitly even if its not written down specifically as such. Because characters without feats cannot be argued for.
Thus, obviously, facts HAVE to come first in any argument. What are the facts? The feats are facts. Subjective considerations, come second, because they are just that, subjective, and without any unquestioning consensus unlike the way we are forced to capitulate to facts. Interpretation of how those feats might be used, are the subjective considerations.
-Character A is thousands of times faster than Character B.
-Character B unfortunately has no counter to this speed.^Those would be facts.
-Character B may have a chance *if* Character A behaves this specific way.
^That, would be an opinion of a possible interpretation.
Facts come first, obviously.
So wait, you're telling me what the rules are, now?
No.
I'm telling you why this 'rule' can't work because it is based on subjectivity--its more of a 'guideline' as such. And besides that, its flawed, I edited the post a bit more to illustrate it with another example.
Can you infract me for arguing that powersets are more important than character? No.
Therefore, its not really a rule by the mechanics.
We are arguing a hypothetical fight. We are not writing a story that includes a fight.