Black Bolt vs. Black Adam

Originally posted by CosmicComet
No.

I'm telling you why this 'rule' can't work because it is based on subjectivity--its more of a 'guideline' as such. And besides that, its flawed, I edited the post a bit more to illustrate it with another example.

Can you infract me for arguing that powersets are more important than character? No.

Therefore, its not really a rule by the mechanics.

We are arguing a hypothetical fight. We are not writing a story that includes a fight.

It is a rule, though. We go by character as primarily if not more so than we do powerset, that's in the rules, and if you don't like it, then I suggest you try debating it on another board, rather than dictate policy to me.

Just because a character can do a thing, does not mean they will do a thing. This is in the rules, and it's no more subjective than the feats that get misconstrued as being better or worse than they are.

It's flawed in your opinion, and you're welcome to it. Doesn't make it fact.

It's flawed by mechanics, not opinion. I'm sorry. I already illustrated why.

Because a character with no feats can't be argued. Something with a feat but no apparent character, can be argued.

Thus implicitly, feats are more important.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Absolutely not.

And I already addressed why that does not work.

The feats come first. The actual character that drives the feats, comes second.

This is how the mechanic works implicitly even if its not written down specifically as such. Because characters without feats cannot be argued for. Characters with feats but no apparent character, CAN be argued for (e.g. if some random character pops up and destroys everything and then disappears without a word, this character can be argued for.)

Thus, obviously, facts HAVE to come first in any argument. What are the facts? The feats are facts. Subjective considerations, come second, because they are just that, subjective, and without any unquestioning consensus unlike the way we are forced to capitulate to facts. Interpretation of how those feats might be used, are the subjective considerations.

-Character A is thousands of times faster than Character B.
-Character B unfortunately has no counter to this speed.

^Those would be facts.

-Character B may have a chance *if* Character A behaves this specific way.

^That, would be an opinion of a possible interpretation.

Facts come first, obviously.

Thusly, the FACTS are that BA is neither too fast (BB has fought characters as fast or faster than BA), or too strong (BB has fought characters as strong or stronger than BA) nor are BA's fighting skills too advanced (BB has fought as skilled fighters or more skilled fighters).

So because of these FACTS BA is unable to overwhelm BB in any of these catagorys and this makes this fight as I earlier stated anyones fight and IMO is a stalemate or is in FACT in BB's favor for the majority.

At the end of the day the FACT is that BA can't get around BB's haymaker of a voice.

The facts:

BA thinks at lightspeed.
BB DOES NOT.

The Gladiator fight argument is not an argument. Seeing as even the likes of Colossus has landed blows on him.

BA annihilates.

facepalm

Originally posted by CosmicComet

The premise of your points are flawed.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
For one, we are NOT arguing characters here. We are arguing feats of characters. We are not writers. We are not bound by the restrictions of having to tell a story like they are. And of course such restrictions can cause clashes with prior established facts within continuity. Which is why forums ever created terms like 'CIS', 'PIS', or designations like 'fighting to the best of their ability', or even giving provisions for threads like 'characters get basic knowledge' of each other.

Of course we are bound by similar restrictions. No, we're not trying to tell a story, but we are entirely limited to interpreting stories, and those stories are inherently bound by restrictions of entertainment. While forums don't have to tell a story, we can't arbitrarily throw away elements of stories that we decide don't belong in a forum fight, including character design and personality.

Forum rules understand this, which is why, as you highlight, they have created terms like CIS/PIS/etc.

Further, I don't really see interpreting actions as based on any less 'cold hard fact' than interpreting feats, and both come with a solid degree of subjectivity. Still, I can explain why I think a character normally behaves in manners x or y, and I can point to comics for evidence, which is why the word you're looking for is 'subjective', not 'arbitrary'.

I understand that ignorance of an entire personality can allow you to reinterpret a fight where your boy comes out on top, but after you've removed all character and reduced him to a class level and flight speed, I don't really see what the appeal of any superhero is anymore.

Anyways, this is all side discussion at this point, seeing as we've had a pretty direct mod ruling on the role of character in forum discussions.

So, with that in mind, I think Black Bolt wins.

CC will be banned from this thread until he starts making sense.

Once again, its a bit hypocritical to assume that BB would use his voice because he's starting to use it more frequently but adam wouldn't use his speed to his advantage. As per the forum rule adam would know about BB's voice and he isn't an idiot exactly. He's by nature a speedster and forcing some imaginary character trait isn't the way to debate it.

Shut up, you liar.

Originally posted by Mindset
Shut up, you liar.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Once again, its a bit hypocritical to assume that BB would use his voice because he's starting to use it more frequently but adam wouldn't use his speed to his advantage. As per the forum rule adam would know about BB's voice and he isn't an idiot exactly. He's by nature a speedster and forcing some imaginary character trait isn't the way to debate it.

I think Adam rushes into these encounters at high speeds, but doesn't typically pour it on past the initial blows, and I don't think that he ever fights at the speeds that he travels at.

What do you think?

Originally posted by Existere
Adam would use his speed the same way he uses it in comics. If we're agreed on that point, then it just comes down to us discussing how he uses it in comics, rather than anybody 'forcing some imaginary character trait'.

I think Adam rushes into these encounters at high speeds, but doesn't typically pour it on past the initial blows, and I don't think that he ever fights at the speeds that he travels at.

What do you think?

Originally posted by abhilegend
I agree, but if BB used his voice as a whisper and adam survived which he will imo then he wouldn't hesitate to blitz BB. That's why I'm giving this to adam, better strength, better speed, better durability and stamina. Black bolt can hang with him in h2h but not for long.

Black Bolt seems to be using the breadth of his powers less and less - the last time he manipulated molecules was when he threatened to wreck Jamie Madrox and that might have actually been Skrull Black Bolt - but he also seems to be getting a lot more brutal with his blows. If he stunned Black Adam in a similar manner that his whisper stunned Gladiator (and I'm of the opinion that nowadays he's a lot likelier to use more than a whisper) and then followed up with a Master Blow or further vocal attacks, then he could take this, but it's a tricky call.

Originally posted by Existere
👆 Yeah, fair enough, I could see that happening. I initially gave Black Bolt 6/10, cause I see him getting at best a small majority, and a lot of it hinges on how much damage he outpours initially.

Black Bolt seems to be using the breadth of his powers less and less - the last time he manipulated molecules was when he threatened to wreck Jamie Madrox and that might have actually been Skrull Black Bolt - but he also seems to be getting a lot more brutal with his blows. If he stunned Black Adam in a similar manner that his whisper stunned Gladiator (and I'm of the opinion that nowadays he's a lot likelier to use more than a whisper) and then followed up with a Master Blow or further vocal attacks, then he could take this, but it's a tricky call.

Originally posted by abhilegend
The problem with shazamers is that they are very difficult to knock out. Captain marvel has been koed only twice post crisis and both were suckerpunches, adam has been koed only once by sivana opening a tesserect in his head the size of a football field. Don't get me wrong, blackagar is awesome but teth is just better.

And nowadays he's using his voice more liberally, as the Inhumans become a warlike race, proactive in their fight to survive.

Black Bolt's stock has gone up as his willingness to use his destructive capabilities have risen. At the end of the day, I think he stands a good chance of KO'ing Adam.

If the fight gets close and personal, BA can rip his antanna off, say good bye BB. Also, if he was similar to Thors apparent power up in Blood & Thunder rage, where his mindset was insane due to Isis' death, I would edge this to BA.

BA

Imo Adam could take what scream BB has shown on panel, when it gets physical he wins.

Black Adam wins.

Adam.

Originally posted by guy222
adam, but if bolt catches em with the scream

This