Originally posted by grey fox
Living Tribunal - Gods second in command
Where does it say LT serves God? It never has done that was just an assumption after he said in Infinity Watch that he serves a being greater than Eternity or the IG. Thats far from conclusive. Recent years have seen beings beyond those powers. Are they supreme beings?
Originally posted by Adam Warlock
He's in the Marvel Universe now. TOAA tells him stop Spectre, that's it. LT can call upon every single being in the Marvel Universe just like he did before and send Spectre packing. Backed by the Abstracts, The Vishanti, The Celestials and what not, Spectre gets stopped. A hooker stole the powers of the Spectre, man what do you think LT will do to him? Logoz equals two things in the Marvel Universe. Jack Sh!t.
This is one of the reasons I love KMC!
The amont of misinformation that floods this forum day in day out, particularly when people post half-truths.
When did the Spectre's powers get 'stolen' by a 'hooker?'
That would sure be interesting, because I have the entire Day of Vengeance arc and I never saw ANY hooker steal his powers .....for the matter there was no hooker of any sort in the entire thing. Thus I am curious where this amazing hooker who goes around DC stealing the powers of deity-level beings came from?
Very curious.
For the matter the only time 'hooker' is mentioned is when the girl (...her name is Lori ....also known as Black Alice....the one who co-opted the powers of the Spectre, and the one people in KMC claim is a 'hooker'...most of whom never even saw the front cover of Day of Vengeance ....said that she thought NightShade was dressed like a hooker.
Now, what I saw was a teenage girl (Lori/Black Alice) , who lives with her dad, and is capable of trouncing even the most potent magic wielders in DC.
For example she took Fate's power for 30 minutes. Meaning that she basically co-opted the powers of Nabu, and elder god of Order.
Took the powers of Zatanna for 30 minutes.
And in both cases above neither could do anything about it.
And she co-opted the powers of the Spectre for a while (she couldn't even keep it for more than some seconds before it started to slip back to the Spectre).
However she did take his powers.
However I laugh when that is used to show that the Spectre is 'weak' ....after all she was 'beaten by a hooker' (although she did NOT beat the Spectre, even when she stole his powers he basically became intangible to physical and magical harm, and thus invulnerable; and she was NOT a hooker). But hey, start something in KMC and it takes a life of its own (reminds me of those threads some months back on 'Flash Prime' that had so many people using him in their threads even when he was just some imaginary character someone had started as a prank).
Oh, and that 'hooker' can do the same exact thing to ANY Marvel magic-wielder who stepped into DC.
She took the power of the Spectre.
The power of Fate.
She will take the power of Dr Strange just as easily.
Anyways, going back to the Spectre.
If he is in Marvel, he will be defeated by the LT since LT is roughly his analogue in the MU.
In the same vein, if the LT comes to DC, he will be defeated by the SPectre.
However all the other characters would basically be fodder. Even characters like Strange would meet the fate of the the Wizard Shazam (who is powerful enough to have been part of the quintessence, yet he was destroyed by the Spectre and his Rock of Eternity, the fount of all magic in DC, blown apart).
What about the Vishanti?
Well, during Spectre's rampage he was killing even gods in space (like those that gave Hawk and Dove powers) ....he basically slew a Lord of Chaos, and a Lord of Order, just by looking at them.
And he turned the Phantom Stranger into a mouse ....the PS.
And once again what he did to Shazam (the Wizard), and the rock of Eternity.
To quote Wolfman (one of DC's premier writers) .....'the SPectre is basically god in DC.'
Anyways, pertinent to this thread the Spectre loses in the MU ....because of the LT.
Not because of anyone else.
And if the LT comes into the DCU then the LT will be defeated.
Oh, and no 'hookers' will be involved in anything here.
Yes that is all Good an nice, but he;s in MU now not DC universe so he aint doing shit, as powerful he is he aint going to be in the universe he is assigned to where he has near complete controlo of the unverse magic included but he will not have that in MU plus the fact that both universe are not the same and have different laws, physiscs and nature so i doubt if the 'hooker could do the same to Doctor strange' or if Spectre will get sent back to DC by LT with a click of a finger.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Where does it say LT serves God? It never has done that was just an assumption after he said in Infinity Watch that he serves a being greater than Eternity or the IG. Thats far from conclusive. Recent years have seen beings beyond those powers. Are they supreme beings?
Stories come and go. LT does not. And guess what? He does serve a power higher than himself. Is it God? Marvel does not have a God.
I'll explain this to you GS. Even before Killermovie comic forum came into existence. TOAA was stated/mentioned by forums such as Superherochat.net, Comicbookresources.com, & Comixtreme.com.
For those who wonder about in only Killermovie forum, the perception is that TOAA was some invention by misinformed and newbies to comics in this messageboard.
Guess what, you go to Superherochat.net & Comicbookresources.com and you'll find mostly avid readers who'll tell you more about TOAA and LT.
Furthermore, LT is by far the top visible being in MU. He's remained so. TOAA is the name given by readers from this and forums that existed before this one. The force, the being, whatever it is that LT serves.
God? There is no GOD in the MU. LT is at the top. Yet even he acknowledges surving a higher power. TOAA>LT. TOAA is equate to be God by posters (not Marvel) because both are supreme being and unchallenged. Again there is no God, only LT and that he serves.
GS, you have good arguments on Phoenix and opinions on the hierarchy of the MU. You want more info and even better debates, again try Superherochat.net and Comicbookresources.com. I know what I know, but they know more.
Furthermore, as much as I and others dismiss and ridicule your crusade, Dizzle, Ill, and KGKG have acknowledged some of what you say is true. Again, posters at those forums are more well versed. If anyone needs convincing, it's posters of those forums.
Originally posted by Juntai
I won't dispute that, however without the influence of the supreme being, there's no evidence to prove any of them have what it takes.
Spectre's feats supersede any of them.
LT stops him. Spectre was stomping throw Skyfather level beings and up. Thanos & Warlock did the same thing. When they weren't toying with them, IG wielders beat Eternity, Galactus, Celestials, and others just by merely wishing it.
LT snapped his fingers and order was restored. Eternity and others were without a scratch even though Warlock was whipping them all earlier.
When it came down to LT and the IG, it was thoughts, wishes, and snaps of the fingers and things were done.
Originally posted by Beyonder
Stories come and go. LT does not. And guess what? He does serve a power higher than himself. Is it God? Marvel does not have a God.I'll explain this to you GS. Even before Killermovie comic forum came into existence. TOAA was stated/mentioned by forums such as Superherochat.net, Comicbookresources.com, & Comixtreme.com.
For those who wonder about in only Killermovie forum, the perception is that TOAA was some invention by misinformed and newbies to comics in this messageboard.
Guess what, you go to Superherochat.net & Comicbookresources.com and you'll find mostly avid readers who'll tell you more about TOAA and LT.
Furthermore, LT is by far the top visible being in MU. He's remained so. TOAA is the name given by readers from this and forums that existed before this one. The force, the being, whatever it is that LT serves.
God? There is no GOD in the MU. LT is at the top. Yet even he acknowledges surving a higher power. TOAA>LT. TOAA is equate to be God by posters (not Marvel) because both are supreme being and unchallenged. Again there is no God, only LT and that he serves.
GS, you have good arguments on Phoenix and opinions on the hierarchy of the MU. You want more info and even better debates, again try Superherochat.net and Comicbookresources.com. I know what I know, but they know more.
Furthermore, as much as I and others dismiss and ridicule your crusade, Dizzle, Ill, and KGKG have acknowledged some of what you say is true. Again, posters at those forums are more well versed. If anyone needs convincing, it's posters of those forums.
All we have heard regarding LT's master is that it is a force beyond the IG, Eternity and LT. Since that early 90's title there have been a number of forces shown on panel to be beyond them. Are they supreme beings as well then?
Thats all it comes down to. Youre making assumptions based on his role and a vague line in a 90's comic. Its not enough. Theres far more on panel evidence supporting Phoenix as an aspect of God but as its not actually stated on panel i can only say its heavily suggested. The same doesnt hold true for LT and yet youre claiming a supreme being connection as canon. It doesnt work like that im afraid.
Heres a good post from Leo that sums it up perfectly:
Originally posted by leonidas
gotta side with gs, here. the way lt is represented on these forums people speak as though it has somehow been conclusively proven that he serves the 'supreme being' aka god, when in fact NEITHER of these assumptions have been proven in anyway at all.the only thing proven is that lt serves something greater than him. could it be 'god'? i suppose . . . though i'd need a lot more on-panel evidence to take that side of the argument. lt's powers/decisions HAVE been overcome before and challenged many times, so we know he's not even the most powerful entity WITHIN the multi/megaverse.
the heart of gs's point is this, (correct me if i'm wrong gs!): people don't like when gs draws connections between pf and 'god', BUT there HAVE been many on-panel inferences (not conclusive proof, mind) to support the notion that this is at least possible and a viable interpretation. meanwhile, many seem to assume lt serves as god's judge, when there is in fact practically ZERO evidence to support this claim.
say what you will about gs and his pf ideas, at least he does his best to depict his theory with on-panel evidence (some of which MAY be open to interpretation . . . 😄) this whole lt-serves-god-thing CANNOT be likewise supported. based on what has appeared in comics, pf has a much stronger claim to be tied in someway to 'god' than lt does.
'Well, during Spectre's rampage he was killing even gods in space (like those that gave Hawk and Dove powers) ....he basically slew a Lord of Chaos, and a Lord of Order, just by looking at them. '
When did this happen .... I know they where compared to his level in Teen Titans, but i havn't heard of him killing any of them ?
IMO Spectre is FAR beyond the Lords of Chaos and Order. Shazam was able to subdue Mordru for an extended period of time, and we saw what Spectre did to him. Spectre has also managed to send Hector Hall (who is basically Nabu) into a Hellish Dimension, (I love the cameo of Sandman, in the recent JSA) ....
I think Spectre beats any one up to Abstract level, including the big G. Eternity has total control over the universe (according to the recent defenders mini), Spectre is not on this scale, as seen in the original crisis, when he struggled against the Antii Monitor.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Theres far more on panel evidence supporting Phoenix as an aspect of God but as its not actually stated on panel i can only say its heavily suggested. The same doesnt hold true for LT and yet youre claiming a supreme being connection as canon. It doesnt work like that im afraid.
God? All it said was White Crown and Creation. All the GOD stuff comes from your interpretation of the White Crown with Kaballah. Does it even say GOD? You went on this Crusade about how Phoenix Force and the White Crown being related to God and thus PF is more powerful than the Heart and LT. Then you backtracked and put PF and LT on equal footing. At one time, you even claimed that LT represent Metatron, top angel that serves God, and therefore he still ranks below PF. And for some reason, you assumed MU has GOD as it's top being? You want as far as to bring in angels and such into the MU as if it were DC. But even to do that, you needed to pull out Kaballah principals and make assumptions. Funny thing is, there IS NO GOD in the MU.
Heck, if you want, I can draw parallels between Adam Warlock and Jesus as well, bringing the bible into this. Warlock is also three GOD in one: Warlock, Magus, and Goddess.
As for LT, he surves a higher power. What other visible being is greater than LT? And yet LT still serves somebody does he not? LT serves TOAA. You wanna say TOAA is not GOD, fine. Because there IS NO GOD in Marvel.
As for supreme being, so far LT operates above the IG and even the Star Brand. During the IG saga, the story was that the Infinity Gems came from the destruction of the Infinty Being. Guess what? LT shut down the IG and while Warlock couldn't do a thing.
Nobody needs to bring the Christianity or Kaballaism into this to know LT at the top of the hierarchy. You, however, have to write an entire essay and add Kaballah principles - which hold no place in the MU - to make some point that PF represents GOD/Supreme Being.
As for Thanos with the Heart, Thanos was tricked was tricked. Even then, did it mention that his power was that of GOD's? As for as it goes, LT guards over the Multiverse and serves one who is above him.
Originally posted by GalacticStormhere we go again with the phoenix bullshit....damnit.....
All we have heard regarding LT's master is that it is a force beyond the IG, Eternity and LT. Since that early 90's title there have been a number of forces shown on panel to be beyond them. Are they supreme beings as well then?Thats all it comes down to. Youre making assumptions based on his role and a vague line in a 90's comic. Its not enough. Theres far more on panel evidence supporting Phoenix as an aspect of God but as its not actually stated on panel i can only say its heavily suggested. The same doesnt hold true for LT and yet youre claiming a supreme being connection as canon. It doesnt work like that im afraid.
Heres a good post from Leo that sums it up perfectly:
The point is, if he's written to optimum capability, like it says in the forum rules, and not automatically depowered, because "it's the Marvel universe"[which is silly anyways, we don't auto-depower Thanos in "Thanos invades DC Earth and takes on the JLA" threads "because he's not shit in DC"], then he will find little worthy opposition.
Originally posted by Beyonder
God? All it said was White Crown and Creation. All the GOD stuff comes from your interpretation of the White Crown with Kaballah. Does it even say GOD? You went on this Crusade about how Phoenix Force and the White Crown being related to God and thus PF is more powerful than the Heart and LT. Then you backtracked and put PF and LT on equal footing. At one time, you even claimed that LT represent Metatron, top angel that serves God, and therefore he still ranks below PF. And for some reason, you assumed MU has GOD as it's top being? You want as far as to bring in angels and such into the MU as if it were DC. But even to do that, you needed to pull out Kaballah principals and make assumptions. Funny thing is, there IS NO GOD in the MU.Heck, if you want, I can draw parallels between Adam Warlock and Jesus as well, bringing the bible into this. Warlock is also three GOD in one: Warlock, Magus, and Goddess.
As for LT, he surves a higher power. What other visible being is greater than LT? And yet LT still serves somebody does he not? LT serves TOAA. You wanna say TOAA is not GOD, fine. Because there IS NO GOD in Marvel.
As for supreme being, so far LT operates above the IG and even the Star Brand. During the IG saga, the story was that the Infinity Gems came from the destruction of the Infinty Being. Guess what? LT shut down the IG and while Warlock couldn't do a thing.
Nobody needs to bring the Christianity or Kaballaism into this to know LT at the top of the hierarchy. You, however, have to write an entire essay and add Kaballah principles - which hold no place in the MU - to make some point that PF represents GOD/Supreme Being.
As for Thanos with the Heart, Thanos was tricked was tricked. Even then, did it mention that his power was that of GOD's? As for as it goes, LT guards over the Multiverse and serves one who is above him.
No need to go into a rant and no need for me to reply to all of this because at the end of the day youve got nothing to support yourself with on panel.
LT serves a being who is greater than the Infinity Gauntlet and Eternity. Thats all that was said. Since the early 90's there have been beings shown on panel to be more powerful than those things. No need to rant its as simple as that.
God or supreme being whatever you call it, it represents and entails the same thing. Dont be so fallacious. The force LT serves isnt conclusively the supreme being.
As both i and Leo have said Phoenix has a stronger case for a God connection, for example its canon that its power creates the multiverse that LT guards, its been presented as one and the same as DC's Source in a crossover, its been referred to by names which mean by real life principles aspects of God and its role in Marvel matches up with said aspects as far as we've seen. Despite that its not canon that Phoenix is an aspect of the supreme being as it hasnt been stated. I have learned to accept that. You need to do the same with LT. Accept that its merely suggested dont present your opinion as canon. 🙁
Originally posted by GalacticStormAs both i and Leo have said Phoenix has a stronger case for a God connection, for example its canon that its power creates the multiverse that LT guards, its been presented as one and the same as DC's Source in a crossover, its been referred to by names which mean by real life principles aspects of God and its role in Marvel matches up with said aspects as far as we've seen.
? What principles? Kaballah? Warlock is Jesus then. Even when Thanos had the Heart, Warlock was still on top.
Despite that its not canon that Phoenix is an aspect of the supreme being as it hasnt been stated. I have learned to accept that. You need to do the same with LT. Accept that its merely suggested dont present your opinion as canon. 🙁 [/B]
And yet PC Darkseid mindraped her. So much for being equal to the Source. She was free only be the end of it.
And if you want to bring crossovers into this, LT and Spectre were trying to find their master. Phoenix wasn't even in it - it was the Brothers. And if you want to discount the Brothers, we'll it was still LT and Spectre who were the top of the hierarchy. What White Crown is there?
At the top of the hieararchy is LT. You, however, for some reason believe PF = GOD when their is no GOD in the MU. People compare TOAA to GOD. But there is NO actual GOD in MU.
Originally posted by Beyonder
God? All it said was White Crown and Creation. All the GOD stuff comes from your interpretation of the White Crown with Kaballah. Does it even say GOD? You went on this Crusade about how Phoenix Force and the White Crown being related to God and thus PF is more powerful than the Heart and LT. Then you backtracked and put PF and LT on equal footing. At one time, you even claimed that LT represent Metatron, top angel that serves God, and therefore he still ranks below PF. And for some reason, you assumed MU has GOD as it's top being? You want as far as to bring in angels and such into the MU as if it were DC. But even to do that, you needed to pull out Kaballah principals and make assumptions. Funny thing is, there IS NO GOD in the MU.Heck, if you want, I can draw parallels between Adam Warlock and Jesus as well, bringing the bible into this. Warlock is also three GOD in one: Warlock, Magus, and Goddess.
As for LT, he surves a higher power. What other visible being is greater than LT? And yet LT still serves somebody does he not? LT serves TOAA. You wanna say TOAA is not GOD, fine. Because there IS NO GOD in Marvel.
As for supreme being, so far LT operates above the IG and even the Star Brand. During the IG saga, the story was that the Infinity Gems came from the destruction of the Infinty Being. Guess what? LT shut down the IG and while Warlock couldn't do a thing.
Nobody needs to bring the Christianity or Kaballaism into this to know LT at the top of the hierarchy. You, however, have to write an entire essay and add Kaballah principles - which hold no place in the MU - to make some point that PF represents GOD/Supreme Being.
As for Thanos with the Heart, Thanos was tricked was tricked. Even then, did it mention that his power was that of GOD's? As for as it goes, LT guards over the Multiverse and serves one who is above him.
All true Beyonder.