Originally posted by Beyonder
? What principles? Kaballah? Warlock is Jesus then. Even when Thanos had the Heart, Warlock was still on top.And yet PC Darkseid mindraped her. So much for being equal to the Source. She was free only be the end of it.
And if you want to bring crossovers into this, LT and Spectre were trying to find their master. Phoenix wasn't even in it - it was the Brothers. And if you want to discount the Brothers, we'll it was still LT and Spectre who were the top of the hierarchy. What White Crown is there?
At the top of the hieararchy is LT. You, however, for some reason believe PF = GOD when their is no GOD in the MU. People compare TOAA to GOD. But there is NO actual GOD in MU.
Sacrificing yourself doesnt make you Jesus im afraid Beyonder. Dont be silly. Were parallels drawn? Yeah maybe, but so what? His other actions and role in Marvel didnt correlate with the real life stories and he wasnt referred to as an aspect of God. Phoenix at least has a role which made it feasible plus on top of that her actions and the parallels drawn and that crossover meant that it was heavily suggested albeit not canon because its never been stated. But thats cool.
LTs master isnt God until its stated. His masters stronger than the IG and Eternity so from that you get that he's the supreme being? By that logic all the forces debatably shown to be stronger than those things can be supreme beings. Or alternatively you can take the sensible route and say while its suggested theres nothing conclusive. Its not canon.
Spectre loses against who? hmm Odin? no zues no mephesto no SS you all wish but no LT nope LT cant even beat Korvac and he didnt snap his fingers he told Warlock to give up the IG or there fight would destroy the universe you guys always leave that fact out also that Eternity refers to him as a peer not a superior you guys leave that out to and what diffrence does it make if Spectre has no authority did he have authority in the fifth dimension? i think not but he still pretty much messed things up so that the imps are powerless.
how is Spectre struggling with the anti moniter weak the guy was consuming the multiverse im so sure that LT would have been able to do much since he hasnt even shown any such great feats as you all say what feats does he have that make him be able to do the garbage you all say? a nova so what an angel from spawn can do that destroy a universe bull never seen it happen and who cares if thats true anyway the ig could do that spectre took out ALL OF MAGIC HELLOOOOOOOO even the IG was over looked by the magic of DR strange eternity is stronger then Spectre heh rightttt Parallax was rewriting reality ONE gauridan of the universe killed Galactus and Parallax has all there powers sept Ganthets and you say Eternity could beat Spectre who is above even Parallax you all wish this was so but its not he has taken on armies of ghosts and demons and has slayed gods like rodents give me a break.
Marvel and DC have both agreed that spectre and LT occupy the same niche in their respective universes. It stand's to reason that for the purpose of comic discussions, that they are at relatively the same power level. However, seeing as this is an insane spectre w/o the approval of the presence, LT would send him packing as commanded by TOAA. But spectre would do shitloads of damage, as his 1st targets would be magical, not cosmic. So dr. strange, the vishantii..etc would all get owned. powerful, they may be, spectre can absorb magic from anything and he's god's vengence (divine rank counts). LT's 3 heads all have to agree for it to take action, and it takes some major shit to go down for him to act. So in the interest of time: spectre lays waste to marvel's magic before LT kicks his ass.
Originally posted by Mider
no LT allowed since he would be the spectre's equal NO LT ALLOWED PEOPLE. so how does Spectre do against the DCU with out the interference of TOAA or LT.
Well, if u don't allow LT then the argument becomes moot, nothing short of all the celestials is even gonna slow spectre down. How is doc strange gonna fight the wrath of God? This is gonna be even more of a one sided fight if u have spectre attack other people. Spectre vs spiderman??
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Sacrificing yourself doesnt make you Jesus im afraid Beyonder. Dont be silly. Were parallels drawn? Yeah maybe, but so what? His other actions and role in Marvel didnt correlate with the real life stories and he wasnt referred to as an aspect of God. Phoenix at least has a role which made it feasible plus on top of that her actions and the parallels drawn and that crossover meant that it was heavily suggested albeit not canon because its never been stated. But thats cool.
Finally, grudgingly admitted it's your interpretation
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
LTs master isnt God until its stated. His masters stronger than the IG and Eternity so from that you get that he's the supreme being? By that logic all the forces debatably shown to be stronger than those things can be supreme beings. Or alternatively you can take the sensible route and say while its suggested theres nothing conclusive. Its not canon.
Again you admit its an opinion well done, Being more Powerful than LT doesn't mean a whole another tier exists till it's not stated.
come on id think there would be more debate with the guys in MU i mean Spectre isnt beating DC in a day how would it go he would go dimension by dimension the beyonders realm and such that would be intresting if the beyonders were as powerful as the fifty dimesion imps who knows maybe there even more they were so smart they made the high evolutionary wanna kill himself.
im sure that adam warlock would make a futile atempt to defeat spectre and the cosmics would gather for sure to fight wow how would that go. since MU is a multiverse and has several eternites and galactus and lord orders and chaos does that mean there is more then one spectre? or is he strong enough to take over ALL the DCU multiverse?
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Sacrificing yourself doesnt make you Jesus im afraid Beyonder. Dont be silly. Were parallels drawn? Yeah maybe, but so what? His other actions and role in Marvel didnt correlate with the real life stories and he wasnt referred to as an aspect of God.
Like Jesus, Warlock's birth was unnatural. He was conceived via a Cocoon created by H.I.V.E. Warlock sacrificed himself/crucified by Man-Beast. Later he was ressurected and defeated Man-Beast to soul Counter Earth. He died sometime later. Then during the IG saga, Warlock came back and stopped Thanos. Gaining the IG, he became GOD, it stated even so. During that time, he divided himself into Warlock, Magus, and Goddess. They were three persons, but all came from one - Adam Warlock. During the End, Warlock again arose oppose and beat Thanos.
But once more, GOD and Jesus are not Marvel's top being. It's thrown around alot, and even its ideas, but that doesn't make Warlock or Phoenix or any others with correlations of GOD/Jesus the top being of the MU.
Phoenix at least has a role which made it feasible plus on top of that her actions and the parallels drawn and that crossover meant that it was heavily suggested albeit not canon because its never been stated. But thats cool.
Feasible? Where did it even say that she was an aspect of God? You wanna draw parallels? LT and Spectre weren't looking for the Source and Phoenix when the cosmos was in danger.
LTs master isnt God until its stated. His masters stronger than the IG and Eternity so from that you get that he's the supreme being? By that logic all the forces debatably shown to be stronger than those things can be supreme beings. Or alternatively you can take the sensible route and say while its suggested theres nothing conclusive. Its not canon. [/B]
And it never stated that Phoenix is GOD or an aspect of GOD. Nor is GOD Marvel's top being. As for Eternity and the IG, LT himself is more powerful than both. TOAA doesn't even need to be brought into this.
Did it ever even refer to Phoenix as being at the top of the hierarchy or food chain? PF even needs hosts to do it job much like Galactus, Eternity, Death, etc. have a counterparts for each universe. There's only one LT - he himself is multiversal.
As for TOAA, LT serves the force or one that's above all.
Originally posted by Beyonder
Like Jesus, Warlock's birth was unnatural. He was conceived via a Cocoon created by H.I.V.E. Warlock sacrificed himself/crucified by Man-Beast. Later he was ressurected and defeated Man-Beast to soul Counter Earth. He died sometime later. Then during the IG saga, Warlock came back and stopped Thanos. Gaining the IG, he became GOD, it stated even so. During that time, he divided himself into Warlock, Magus, and Goddess. They were three persons, but all came from one - Adam Warlock. During the End, Warlock again arose oppose and beat Thanos.But once more, GOD and Jesus are not Marvel's top being. It's thrown around alot, and even its ideas, but that doesn't make Warlock or Phoenix or any others with correlations of GOD/Jesus the top being of the MU.
Feasible? Where did it even say that she was an aspect of God? You wanna draw parallels? LT and Spectre weren't looking for the Source and Phoenix when the cosmos was in danger.
And it never stated that Phoenix is GOD or an aspect of GOD. Nor is GOD Marvel's top being. As for Eternity and the IG, LT himself is more powerful than both. TOAA doesn't even need to be brought into this.
Did it ever even refer to Phoenix as being at the top of the hierarchy or food chain? PF even needs hosts to do it job much like Galactus, Eternity, Death, etc. have a counterparts for each universe. There's only one LT - he himself is multiversal.
As for TOAA, LT serves the force or one that's above all.
I really dont need to reply to all of this as its all been dealt with previously. If not in this thread, then a multitude of others.
Before we start i need to clear something up with you. God is just another name for the supreme being. If you feel more comfortable just saying supreme being then thats fine, but getting caught up on that wording will not advance your case any further.
Its pointless saying "Oh look parallels have been drawn between Warlock and Jesus". That changes not a thing. Why? Because Warlock doesnt have a role in Marvel creation that makes such a connection feasible.
Phoenix as per current continuity is responsible for Marvel creation. Its power made it, its power sustains it. The same creation LT guards. You have the Phoenix Consciousness that exists in the white hot room and it manifests into creation as the Big Bangs from which the universes of Marvels multiverse are formed. So your point about there being only one LT is void. Yeah there are many Phoenixes at a universal level, but there is only one Crown/White Hot Room.
Since New X-men v1's end the white hot room otherwise referred to on panel as "the core" and origin point of creation, "the heart of the phoenix" has been made canon. References to it can be found in Official Hbook Xmen 2005 and O Hbook: Alternate Universes 2005.
Heres a previous post of mine which highlights the parallels drawn, references used and symbology on panel which suggest a connection between Phoenix and God.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Indeed it does. However Endsong was apparrently the last Phoenix appearance in 616 therefore a retcons gotta happen eventually its inevitable. However thats no biggie cos when that does happen you'll still be able to debate with the all powerful White Crown Phoenix in mind just like Supes fans can debate with Pre-Crisis or Prime. 😉As for the God link, the Crown is stated on panel to be the after life where everyone is absorbed into upon their death (New X-men 153 Phoenix and Bumbleboy), its also stated to be the core of all creation(Uncanny X-men 461).
On panel it is also stated to be the heart of the Phoenix (UncannyX-men 461) and Phoenix is said to represent the Crown in creation. (The White Phoenix of Crown). Phoenix in F4 522 was said to manifest as the Big Bang, the energies of creation.
The Phoenix is said to be the power of creation, a consciousness that manifests into the physical plane through the minds of sentient beings. For example in the space shuttle incident where the golden woman appearred before Jean it said:
“-My consciousness, my form and its ability to communicate on this plane of existence derive directly from you. They provide an...awareness of your dominant emotions and memories.
-Oh great. You mean you're a figment of my imagination?"
-You jest, yet what is imagination, save the ability to conceive of that which is beyond reality.You are human.I am of creation.”
and in New X-men 154 it follows the same idea but says the "Phoenix Consciousness" manifests through the Crown Chakra of a host:
In the real world the Crown is the beginning point and end of all life and creation. The Divine name of Keter/The Crown is Eheieh (which is rendered as Pure Being,or Presence.). It is the highest divine essence that can possibly be conceived. Beyond it is the Unknowable God. Everything exists in Keter in its archetypical form.The colour used to represent it is brilliant white,both to symbolize burning radiance and the union of all colors of the spectrum. (White Phoenix of Crown)
Those closest to God those who reside in the Crown are the Choir of Seraphim.
[The Seraphim (from Seraph=consume with fire) are the angels closest to God,but also those sent to cleanse creation with the fire of purification,to burn away false doctrine]. They are traditionally represented as fire emblazoned humanoids with wings.
In the physical world it is represented by the Primum Mobile or the First Whirlings of Manifestation,a phase that describes the action of the cosmic energy at the creation of the universe (The Big Bang).
In the microcosm of the human body it corresponds to the crown chakra,above the top of the skull,said to be the portal to the highest spiritual experience,the union with God.
Nuff said basically. The connection with God is crystal clear and quite blatant. By presenting the Crown and its role as more or less the same as in the real world, by having Phoenix as its representative in creation and Phoenix being referred to as the Big Bang the energies of creation that more or less confirms it.
That is a far better case than the LT one which is all highly unsupported speculation stemming from the lines:
"""My judge is a strange entity the others claim is a representative of a power above Eternity and myself"""
"""I represent forces that dwarf your might"""
"""My authority comes from on high"""
Your case is those lines plus LT's role in the multiverse. You need to understand that you have nothing conclusive. That is the only fact here. While your viewpoint is inferred by these statements and his role it isnt canon. Again that is fact and that point is not debatable.
I can accept that Phoenixes god connection while heavily suggested (certainly alot more than LTs) by parallels and its integral role in Marvel, it isnt actually stated on panel. Its not canon.
Originally posted by GalacticStormyou read too much x-men brutha....
I really dont need to reply to all of this as its all been dealt with previously. If not in this thread, then a multitude of others.Before we start i need to clear something up with you. God is just another name for the supreme being. If you feel more comfortable just saying supreme being then thats fine, but getting caught up on that wording will not advance your case any further.
Its pointless saying "Oh look parallels have been drawn between Warlock and Jesus". That changes not a thing. Why? Because Warlock doesnt have a role in Marvel creation that makes such a connection feasible.
Phoenix as per current continuity is responsible for Marvel creation. Its power made it, its power sustains it. The same creation LT guards. You have the Phoenix Consciousness that exists in the white hot room and it manifests into creation as the Big Bangs from which the universes of Marvels multiverse are formed. So your point about there being only one LT is void. Yeah there are many Phoenixes at a universal level, but there is only one Crown/White Hot Room.
Since New X-men v1's end the white hot room otherwise referred to on panel as "the core" and origin point of creation, "the heart of the phoenix" has been made canon. References to it can be found in Official Hbook Xmen 2005 and O Hbook: Alternate Universes 2005.
Heres a previous post of mine which highlights the parallels drawn, references used and symbology on panel which suggest a connection between Phoenix and God.
That is a far better case than the LT one which is all highly unsupported speculation stemming from the lines:
"""My judge is a strange entity the others claim is a representative of a power above Eternity and myself"""
"""I represent forces that dwarf your might"""
"""My authority comes from on high"""
Your case is those lines plus LT's role in the multiverse. You need to understand that you have nothing conclusive. That is the only fact here. While your viewpoint is inferred by these statements and his role it isnt canon. Again that is fact and that point is not debatable.
I can accept that Phoenixes god connection while heavily suggested (certainly alot more than LTs) by parallels and its integral role in Marvel, it isnt actually stated on panel. Its not canon.
