Originally posted by Pwned61
I don't see how Revan can win. Mundi just makes this overkill as Mace could probably take this on his own.
I think Mace on his own could be an amazing fight, but I don't think Vaapad and Shatterpoint > Cracked out Battle Precognition and Sith force use. Now, to give Mace credit, he is a powerful jedi and a saber prodigy. I personally think it could go either way, but Ki-Adi-Mundi isn't going to swing it. A Sith Lord would dominate Ki before the fight even began.
Originally posted by Dark Aristokrat
I think Mace on his own could be an amazing fight, but I don't think Vaapad and Shatterpoint > Cracked out Battle Precognition and Sith force use. Now, to give Mace credit, he is a powerful jedi and a saber prodigy. I personally think it could go either way, but Ki-Adi-Mundi isn't going to swing it. A Sith Lord would dominate Ki before the fight even began.
Personally, I don't see Battle precognition being that much of a use in this battle, at the very least it's cancled out by the shatterpoints. With that out of the way, vaapad gives Mace the edge in lightsaber combat. I do agree with you however as far as the dark side powers are concerned. Still, Sidious' lightning really didn't seem to be all that impressive, hell, AOTC Obi-wan was able to deflect Dooku's lightning.
Well, you have to look at the nature of the battle precognition- it basically allows one to read another's movements far in advance. It's superior to regular jedi attunement. Shatterpoint is simply being able to analyze one's weakness; it doesn't guarantee that you can penetrate that weakness. Note that in the novel Shatterpoint Mace was far from undefeatable.
Secondly, about the lightning, Mace was struggling with Sidious' lighting and was unable to proceed. But ideally, Revan wouldn't be in such a spot, since the arena would be more open. I think we can all agree that if Sidious had faced Mace in the senatorial chamber, the battle would have gone in the Sith's favor. Dooku's lightning seemed weak, but he wasn't really putting a lot into it. It was one handed and brief.
Originally posted by Dark Aristokrat
Well, you have to look at the nature of the battle precognition- it basically allows one to read another's movements far in advance. It's superior to regular jedi attunement. Shatterpoint is simply being able to analyze one's weakness; it doesn't guarantee that you can penetrate that weakness. Note that in the novel Shatterpoint Mace was far from undefeatable.Secondly, about the lightning, Mace was struggling with Sidious' lighting and was unable to proceed. But ideally, Revan wouldn't be in such a spot, since the arena would be more open. I think we can all agree that if Sidious had faced Mace in the senatorial chamber, the battle would have gone in the Sith's favor. Dooku's lightning seemed weak, but he wasn't really putting a lot into it. It was one handed and brief.
Now, I don't even remember the handmaiden specifically saying Revan did have the ability, she hinted that he showed signs of it, but never having met him, I doubt her's is the best info to go by. Besides, much like the shattpoints, it hardly will guarantee victory.
As far as the lightning is concerned, of course Mace was struggling with the lightning, this is Sidious we're talking about. In ROTS he's already one of the most powerful dark siders to show up in thousands and thousands of years. In fact, aside from Nihilus, he's probably the strongest to show up since Exar Kun. And Revan is a far cry from either. That being said, I don't view Revan's lightning to be that much of a threat to mace.
I'm assuming that reply is in response to my comments about Revan and Sidious, correct? If so, I understand why you'd want to go, Lightsnake brings it up often I'm sure. But I want you to know I'm more than ready to calmly debate my opinion with you if you'd like. otherwise, I enjoyed what you stuck around for.
Originally posted by Pwned61
Now, I don't even remember the handmaiden specifically saying Revan did have the ability, she hinted that he showed signs of it, but never having met him, I doubt her's is the best info to go by. Besides, much like the shattpoints, it hardly will guarantee victory.As far as the lightning is concerned, of course Mace was struggling with the lightning, this is Sidious we're talking about. In ROTS he's already one of the most powerful dark siders to show up in thousands and thousands of years. In fact, aside from Nihilus, he's probably the strongest to show up since Exar Kun. And Revan is a far cry from either. That being said, I don't view Revan's lightning to be that much of a threat to mace.
Well, I disagree with your stance on Sidious, but I appreciate the offer. Here...
First off, I suppose I should note that Revan's Battle Precognition should be a conditional for the battle. IF he has it, THEN this applies, etc etc. I think that's far more fair than trying to argue whether or not he has it, since you did bring up a good point. (It certainly would make sense why Malak didn't challenge Revan until he felt Revan was weaker, had forgotten things, and of course Malak had the entire Star Forge behind him, just my thoughts)
Now, if he DID have it, it'd be the equivalent of being two steps ahead of Mace at any time. Mace can be bested in combat, regardless of his Shatterpoint ability. And Vaapad simply allows one to channel their own inner darkness and fight more unpredictably and deadly- it isn't the end-all of saber styles. Revan's also a Sith Lord capable of dark side powers. His tactical ability is likely to be inherent in his fighting ability as is his apparent cold, calculating nature (As noted by his calm stance in the FMV, the way which he wages war, the accounts of his person, etc.)
Revan has defeated a few notable people in melee combat (i.e. confirmed kills). These include Mandalore, Yusanis the Echani duelling legend, Bandon, and Malak himself. Let's look at each individually:
- Mandalorians of the KOTOR era are notorious for being warriors. They practice martial arts of all types, and we see them vigorously sparring in KOTOR II on Dxun. The title of Mandalore is given to the strongest of them all, not just the best leader, so it would seem reasonable to assume that Mandalore was a dangerous opponent. Enough for a Sith Lord? Perhaps not. But another notch on his belt nonetheless.
- Yusanis was noted for being the foremost duellist on a planet full of martial people. In particular, the Echani are noted for their melee and their unarmed fighting styles, styles which persist into the PT era (Note that the mercenary in the Medstar series who bests a jedi in combat practiced echani). Revan pretty much slaughtered him where he stood. Obviously, this was an impressive feat. Being the foremost of his kind I would imagine Yusanis would be a deadly grandmaster (The type to KO others inside of one or two hits.) yet he was destroyed. This isn't even factoring in the possibility that Yusanis had some form of Force sensitivity or that he possesses the Echani variation of refined battle precog.
- Bandon is noted on the official KOTOR site as being undefeated, and second in command to Malak over all the dark jedi and sith in the New Sith Empire. Considering that the war included fighting various Republic troops, their allies, and the jedi, his record speaks well of him. Revan pwned him.
- Malak, a Sith Lord of considerable skill (Noted in his official bio as being a frontline soldier and a legendary combatant even in his own time) with the aid of a force channeling device (The Star Forge) and sapping the lifeforce from dead captured jedi, was unable to beat Revan.
Obviously, in melee combat Revan is no slouch. To say he is weaker than ROTS Sidious is a joke. Sidious was unable to gain a saber advantage over Mace or Yoda, and he barely won despite having the element of height and being able to throw pods... and all this despite the fact that he had a longer reach than his opponent and aggressive force powers!
Now, I'd like to avoid debating the uberness of Sidious, if only to save this thread from derailment, but Revan and Sidious are in the very least comparable in terms of raw power in the Force. Revan is noted by jedi masters, Kreia, peers, and opponents alike of being an incredible force user. Even if I were to say Revan is only as good as ROTS Sidious or slightly worse, he would still dominate Ki in an open arena and destroy Mace after a few minute fight.