Darth Revan Vs Mace and Mundi

Firstly, that is a huge, and stupid, generalization. As a whole, the KOTOR Jedi are no better than the PT one's. And even if that were true, it would be based solely on the average Jedi, and Mace is far, far from an average Jedi. I mean, there has been literaly thousands of years for the Jedi to refine their techniques by the time we reach the PT era, and yes, while a number of Jedi have chosen to forgo combat in favor for more practical lessons, the rest have remained strong and have continued to practice the martial aspect of the Jedi.

Yes, the pre-cog does help, so does the shatterpoints, which is why I say for the most part, they pretty much cancel each other.

The Exile wasn't using the force to enhance his body simply because the game requires you to actually use the move before you get the bonus, and upon use, you lose.

And lastly, you need to learn how to read. I'm saying that Defeating Mandalore and Yusaniss arn't worth brining up, as they prove nothing towards Revan's combat skill. We know that he beat them, but we have no idea how. Revan might have simply used lightning till Mandalore crumbled.

Originally posted by Pwned61
Firstly, that is a huge, and stupid, generalization. As a whole, the KOTOR Jedi are no better than the PT one's. And even if that were true, it would be based solely on the average Jedi, and Mace is far, far from an average Jedi. I mean, there has been literaly thousands of years for the Jedi to refine their techniques by the time we reach the PT era, and yes, while a number of Jedi have chosen to forgo combat in favor for more practical lessons, the rest have remained strong and have continued to practice the martial aspect of the Jedi.

Revan is THE best of a better time of Jedi. These Jedi fought in a lot more wars and fought real opponents to the death in lightsaber combat. The best person of a time when everyone was general stronger vs. someone who is in the top four, but not the best, of people of a lesser time. The person from the greater time will win.

The Jedi Order got weaker over time. This is fact. They were devastated at the battle of Ruusan, losing almost every single Jedi alive(there were still several hundred or so). They lost the Chu'uthor, they lost the archives on Dantooine, they lost so much knowledge and they lost their fighting focus. Jedi in PT times were trained to be diplomats, which is a Jedi's true goal, to not fight. The PT Jedi were more Jedi-like, but they would lost in a fight to other, more militaristic Jedi.

The PT Jedi have no ring time. They don't fight with real people. Even Yoda had never fought a Sith before he fought Dooku in ep2.

Originally posted by Pwned61
Yes, the pre-cog does help, so does the shatterpoints, which is why I say for the most part, they pretty much cancel each other.

This statement is unfounded crap. How are they going to cancel eachother out? That's like saying, "I have an orange, and you have an apple, so we are equal." That makes no sense whatsoever.

Originally posted by Pwned61
The Exile wasn't using the force to enhance his body simply because the game requires you to actually use the move before you get the bonus, and upon use, you lose.

This statement is also crap. Gameplay isn't canon. Jedi don't press the heal button and suddenly go from almost dead to half health. They don't do power attack, power attack, critical attack. They don't do anything like that. They are constanly increasing their bodies through the force. They constantly empowering their bodies. Don't try to argue gameplay as canon, it will only make you look more retarded.

Originally posted by Pwned61
And lastly, you need to learn how to read. I'm saying that Defeating Mandalore and Yusaniss arn't worth brining up, as they prove nothing towards Revan's combat skill. We know that he beat them, but we have no idea how. Revan might have simply used lightning till Mandalore crumbled.

If Revan is powerful enough to kill Mandalore with just lightning, that speaks measures for his force powers. If he hadn't defeated them in actual combat, the Mandalorians would have given a rats ass about the fight. They did, so Revan defeated them honorably. The fight matters a lot.

First off, the Jedi did lose a lot of knowledge after the battle of Ruusan, but that still gave the Jedi a thousand years to re-learn it, and expand upon it. It's not like once a discovery has been made, it can't be made again. And I agree, that as a whole the Jedi of earlier, more chaotic ages may have been stronger. This however, does not mean anything. Mace and Revan's abilities are not tied to the strength of their era. Also, can you specifically tell me what knowledge was lost that would be so devastating to the development of the Jedi.

Secondly, The shatterpoints and pre-cog both offer a substantial advantage to both parties, both are passive abilities, neither one is really stronger than the other, so, I'm saying bringing either up is a waste of time as it doesn't overcome the other.
(P.S no one has proved Revan has it either, unless there's a quote beyond the Handmaiden that I've missed.)

Thirdly, the conditions of fights with the handmaiden sisters early on dictated that the Exile must win without the aid of the force. Using the force to augment one's abilities is an active ability that the force user much intentionally use. Yoda is the perfect example of this, when he's not using the force to augment his reflex's, he's paramount to a cripple.

Lastly, defeating Mandalore marked the end of their campaign, of course they're going to remember it. And just for the record, none of the mandalorians that the player meets makes a big deal out of it. Not even Canderous, who simply was surprised that they actually lost. Besides, defeating Mandalore isn't a big deal simply because it's a feat that Mace could have easily have achieved as well, so it proves nothing.

Originally posted by Pwned61
First off, the Jedi did lose a lot of knowledge after the battle of Ruusan, but that still gave the Jedi a thousand years to re-learn it, and expand upon it. It's not like once a discovery has been made, it can't be made again. And I agree, that as a whole the Jedi of earlier, more chaotic ages may have been stronger. This however, does not mean anything. Mace and Revan's abilities are not tied to the strength of their era. Also, can you specifically tell me what knowledge was lost that would be so devastating to the development of the Jedi.

The actual techniques? No, I can't, because it isn't written. The Jedi lost an entire library just four hundred years before PT times. What makes you think they could relearn 21,000 years of teachings in less then 1000 years? To think such is downright stupid and it gets even worse if you count what they lost on the Chu'uthor.

Also note that Mace wasn't leagues above everyone else like Revan was. There was at least 1 Jedi and 1 Sith who could defeat him. Revan pwned the third strongest Sith, defeated the second strongest person in the galaxy(asfter himself) twice in a row even when his enemy had the power of the Star Forge behind him, is a lot stronger the the most powerful two Jedi since his worshiper pwned the three most capable Jedi alive. His lacky, the Exile, who is weaker then him, took out most of the other capable Sith around such as Sion, Traya, Atris, and Nihilus(are storyline fights). Mace has nothing over him.

Originally posted by Pwned61
Secondly, The shatterpoints and pre-cog both offer a substantial advantage to both parties, both are passive abilities, neither one is really stronger than the other, so, I'm saying bringing either up is a waste of time as it doesn't overcome the other.
(P.S no one has proved Revan has it either, unless there's a quote beyond the Handmaiden that I've missed.)

Are you saying that the Handmaiden was lying? If you are, you better prove up and do so fast because of anyone alive, she would know, seeing as he killed her father.

What evidence do you have that neither one is stronger the the other? Any at all? No? I didn't think so.

Originally posted by Pwned61
Thirdly, the conditions of fights with the handmaiden sisters early on dictated that the Exile must win without the aid of the force. Using the force to augment one's abilities is an active ability that the force user much intentionally use. Yoda is the perfect example of this, when he's not using the force to augment his reflex's, he's paramount to a cripple.

He has to have been using the force because he can't help but use the force. He already has his powers back and is fully emerged in it now. Yoda doesn't constantly use it when he is walking, but while fighting, the force automatically alerts him of coming attacks and where to move and stuff. He doesn't have control over it, neither did the Exile. The Exile just couldn't use any active powers, but passive ones were fine.

Originally posted by Pwned61
Lastly, defeating Mandalore marked the end of their campaign, of course they're going to remember it. And just for the record, none of the mandalorians that the player meets makes a big deal out of it. Not even Canderous, who simply was surprised that they actually lost. Besides, defeating Mandalore isn't a big deal simply because it's a feat that Mace could have easily have achieved as well, so it proves nothing.

Prove that Mace could have done the same thing or else acknowledge that you are just shouting unfounded BS.

On Rakata Prime Canderous did make a big deal about it. He was talking about how Revan defeated the best of them and that he was insulted that he felt that he needed to ask if he would continue to follow him. On Dxun, Canderous talked with Traya about why Revan left him behind and we heard about how it was something that haunted him even to that day, even though Canderous has no reason to respect him other then the fact that he pwned them. That's servitude that only goes to people with power, something Mace has never demonstrated.

Glentract: Maul says he and Palpatine defeated Jedi in battle and both had grown bored. Maul wanted a real test like Plo Koon or Mace Windu....and when do we find out Revan had a holocron? Dark or light side Revan?

Now, Ianus:
Like any Jedi during the Clone Wars-or, unlike them, including the Stark Hyperspace war, the Yinchorri war, etc...Revan had zero experience until the Mando Wars. I don't dismiss Revan easily, he's my fourth favorite Sith....I just get annoyed of the hero worship.

I don't call what Mace did 'little effort'. He was struggling in that fight. Also: Palpatine had them all off guard....why go for the weakers first and not the real threat? And I'm going to ask, Ianus: Have you ever read Golden age of the Sith or the Sith War? the Sith are not impressive there whatsoever. I've nothing but content for the lot of them but Ragnos and maybe some of his predecessors.

And Dooku was Sidious's apprentice, and Ventress learned from Dooku....if Palpatine, described by Dooku as being so strong as to stand next to Yoda-next to him, mind you-and not be felt. Dooku and Ventress had to learn that skill from somewhere.

And...I didn't say Malak and Dooku were equals, I'd put Dooku above Malak actually. Who says Revan 'smoked' Malak? Who knows how hard the fight was?

And in The Sith War, Exar Kun shatters a Sith Holocron....the power crushes the Jedi assembled there, giving them the knowledge and skills of the old Sith. Palpatine absorbedthe energy from a Holocron...and he learned from the Ancients. Those are pretty damn good teachers, when you throw Ragnos, Tulak Hord, The guy in the red armor, the rest of Ragnos's predecessors...

The problem is that it's highly unlikely that the info stored in any one academy or library, was unique to it. So losing one, while it would set them back, would hardly effect them in the way you make it seem. And I'm confused by your second point. Are you saying that because Mace wasn't the strongest of his time, he can't take the strongest of another?

I'm not saying that the handmaiden is lying, I'm saying that she doesn't prove anything. She never says that Revan has battle pre-cog, she mentions that based on his actions as a taction, he showed such signs, which doesn't prove anything.

No, I don't have proof one is stronger than the other, and I'm pretty sure that you don't either. So, this is pointless, which is why I said that they should be disregarded.

I do agree with you as far as the exile goes, no active, only passive, and using the force to jump 10ft in the air and move twice your normal speed, is an active power. I wasn't arguing the presence of a jedi's sixth sense, only the idea that he was using force augmentation.

First off, are you going to claim that Mace couldn't handle Mandalore? As strong as he may have been, he's still lacks the force, and mace was considered to be the best duelist by some. Have you been reading my posts, or do you just ignore everything, I've said at least three times now why talking about mandalore is pointless.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Glentract: Maul says he and Palpatine defeated Jedi in battle and both had grown bored. Maul wanted a real test like Plo Koon or Mace Windu....and when do we find out Revan had a holocron? Dark or light side Revan?

KOTOR 2 said that Revan had both Ajunta's Sword and Tulak's Holocron. He has them, get over it.

Page number for the part where Maul says that?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Now, Ianus:
Like any Jedi during the Clone Wars-or, unlike them, including the Stark Hyperspace war, the Yinchorri war, etc...Revan had zero experience until the Mando Wars. I don't dismiss Revan easily, he's my fourth favorite Sith....I just get annoyed of the hero worship.

That's over double the experince of the Jedi in the Clone Wars. You miss the main point though. Jedi in that time were warriors and trained to be warriors since just 40 years earlier there had been a ton of damage done by darksiders. The PT Jedi had grown weak because they had not had anyone to challenge their power in a thousand years.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I don't call what Mace did 'little effort'. He was struggling in that fight. Also: Palpatine had them all off guard....why go for the weakers first and not the real threat? And I'm going to ask, Ianus: Have you ever read Golden age of the Sith or the Sith War? the Sith are not impressive there whatsoever. I've nothing but content for the lot of them but Ragnos and maybe some of his predecessors.

This is a downright dumb statement. Those guys were creating false armies through the force. They were destroying stars with thier bare hands. They were instakilling Masters who had been training for decades. Not impressive? Hardly.

Let me quote Janus on this, "The point remains... Revan lived in times when one's life was decided by the swiftness of another's blade, period. Sidious did not live in mortal fear of his life nor did he fight on many battlegrounds or face off against as many powerful opponents. And again, this is about Mace."

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And Dooku was Sidious's apprentice, and Ventress learned from Dooku....if Palpatine, described by Dooku as being so strong as to stand next to Yoda-next to him, mind you-and not be felt. Dooku and Ventress had to learn that skill from somewhere.

I don't understand this statement. Moving on...

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And...I didn't say Malak and Dooku were equals, I'd put Dooku above Malak actually. Who says Revan 'smoked' Malak? Who knows how hard the fight was?

Have you played KOTOR? I will spell it out for you.

Malak had all his regular powers, plus enough Jedi to regenerate himself back to full strength at least once, plus the protection from all of Revan's force attacks by the Star Forge, although he could still attack Revan vs.

Revan after having fought threw a planet full of Sith, Rakata, Rancors, and Mandalorians, then gone on to fight through hundreds of droids and Sith troopers and apprentices and Knights without rest.

Revan winning at all shows that he solidy would pwn Malak in a fair fight.

What makes you think that Dooku is better then Malak? I want actual reasons here, no assumptions. Actually, I change my mind. This thread is getting to cluttered with side arguments, I'll make a seperate thread for that.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And in The Sith War, Exar Kun shatters a Sith Holocron....the power crushes the Jedi assembled there, giving them the knowledge and skills of the old Sith. Palpatine absorbedthe energy from a Holocron...and he learned from the Ancients. Those are pretty damn good teachers, when you throw Ragnos, Tulak Hord, The guy in the red armor, the rest of Ragnos's predecessors...

How does crushing them give them the knowledge of the Old Sith(did you mean to say Ancient, or did you really mean the Ancient Sith?)?

When did Palpatine ever learn from the Ancients or have any notable holocrons from then as of when he fought Mace?

You've also backed youself into a corner. You can either accept that Mace is very powerful and truly did defeat Sidious and Sidious isn't very strong in ROTS, or you can accepts that Mace lost and would lose to Revan even with Mundi's help.

Originally posted by Pwned61
The problem is that it's highly unlikely that the info stored in any one academy or library, was unique to it. So losing one, while it would set them back, would hardly effect them in the way you make it seem. And I'm confused by your second point. Are you saying that because Mace wasn't the strongest of his time, he can't take the strongest of another?

I was saying that because he wasn't the strongest of a weaker time, he probably will lose to someone who is far and away the strongest of a more powerful time.

Atris called the items stored on Dantooine irreplacable. That means there weren't an copies anywhere. Also, if the library on the Chu'uthor wasn't uniqe, why would the Jedi have fought the Nightsisters for it?(Keep in mind that this isn't a real war or anything against people like the Sith and that it wouldn't effect PT Jedi anyway because everyone from that time except Yoda and Bodo Baas was dead). If they could have gone somewhere else and ran off a few copies of the info they would have because it is not the Jedi way to fight for something that they can just get more of. Infact, even uniqe items they only fight for if it will help innocents. Fighting for something they have copies for doesn't do that. Fighting for unique knowledge does.

Originally posted by Pwned61
I'm not saying that the handmaiden is lying, I'm saying that she doesn't prove anything. She never says that Revan has battle pre-cog, she mentions that based on his actions as a taction, he showed such signs, which doesn't prove anything.

Erm, she says that he mastered to a level never before seen. I think you need to replay the game.

Originally posted by Pwned61
No, I don't have proof one is stronger than the other, and I'm pretty sure that you don't either. So, this is pointless, which is why I said that they should be disregarded.

No they shouldn't. Just because you don't know something for sure doesn't mean that there is no reason not to speculate on it and to try and figure it out.

Originally posted by Pwned61
I do agree with you as far as the exile goes, no active, only passive, and using the force to jump 10ft in the air and move twice your normal speed, is an active power. I wasn't arguing the presence of a jedi's sixth sense, only the idea that he was using force augmentation.

His sixth sense is battle precog. Also remember that he had the same advantage that the Sisters had because the Handmaiden said he was using it and he didn't even know it. So, the Exile had both Echani precog(which is the same as what the Sisters had, nuliflying their advantage) plus his Jedi precog, meaning that he was effectively beating up a bunch of women. The sign of a truly mighty man? I don't think so.

Originally posted by Pwned61
First off, are you going to claim that Mace couldn't handle Mandalore? As strong as he may have been, he's still lacks the force, and mace was considered to be the best duelist by some. Have you been reading my posts, or do you just ignore everything, I've said at least three times now why talking about mandalore is pointless.

I'm not ignoring it, you are just wrong. It is not pointless for reasons I have said but you appear to ignore. As such, we are at an impass.

Are you going to claim that Mace can take Mandalore without proof? Plenty of non-force users have killed Jedi before. Just because someone lacks the force doesn't mean they can defeat a Jedi. Jango, a Mandalorian from weaker times almost defeated Obi-wan. He also gunned down a Council Member Jedi. Are you telling me that someone who has guns that are at least as strong as Jango's and has extensive skill in lightsaber combat and has more likely then not killed dozens of Jedi will lose to Mace?

1. Dark Side or Light Side Revan? Since Revan is light side, he wouldn't be taught by or use dark side things, now would he? Dark siders CAN'T use lightside items, Light siders can't use dark side items. And I'll find Shadow Hunter later

2. Yeah, right, before the CLone Wars there wer.e..the Yinchorri Wars. Stark Hyperspace, Volffe Karkko, Nightsister rebellions and the Gate of Infinity, battles with Sith Lords who they didn't know were Sith, toppling dictators, military coups....busy little bees the CLone Wars jedi were.
Would you consider The Sith war Jedi weak, Glentract? It'd been a thousand years since THEY faced any threat

3. Name a single time they destroyed a star with their bare hands, created Sith illusions without meditaiton spheres that amplified their power with force sensitive crystals and instakilled a master.

4. Proof Revan killed anyone on Rakta or the Star Forge, now. Gameplay, Gameplay. And why do I think Dooku was comparable to Malak? He was the first and foremost Makashi master, extremely skilled in the Dark side and force, a brilliant fighter, comparable to Yoda, respected by the Mandalorians, was able to break Durge into submission...

5. Because the energies released in the Holocrons carry part of the souls of the ones who made it. And he had Darth Andeddu's-who was an ancient-among others he found on Korriban...and he was on Korriban often in his youth, before and after he killed Plageuis and according to the Ancients in EE who said it'd been ten years since he'd been there....that's....2 years prior to ROTJ

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Dark Side or Light Side Revan? Since Revan is light side, he wouldn't be taught by or use dark side things, now would he? Dark siders CAN'T use lightside items, Light siders can't use dark side items. And I'll find Shadow Hunter later

A lightsaber form is not Darkside or lightside. Either can know it. Also, Luke uses plenty of Darkside techniques, yet he is lightside. The same is true for Revan.

Also, how did Palpatine use any of the Jedi stuff he got if he couldn't use the lightside stuff? Looks like you've worked youself into another corner.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
2. Yeah, right, before the CLone Wars there wer.e..the Yinchorri Wars. Stark Hyperspace, Volffe Karkko, Nightsister rebellions and the Gate of Infinity, battles with Sith Lords who they didn't know were Sith, toppling dictators, military coups....busy little bees the CLone Wars jedi were.
Would you consider The Sith war Jedi weak, Glentract? It'd been a thousand years since THEY faced any threat

They faced the Nightsister, the Krath, the Naddist, the numerous threats of the new territory the Republic they were helping expand, ect. That is far MORE then anything the PT Jedi had.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
3. Name a single time they destroyed a star with their bare hands, created Sith illusions without meditaiton spheres that amplified their power with force sensitive crystals and instakilled a master.

They aren't going to be fighting naked. Why can't you get it through your head? They are going to be onboard their ships, wearing their gauntlets, and in their meditation spheres against any enemy.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
4. Proof Revan killed anyone on Rakta or the Star Forge, now. Gameplay, Gameplay. And why do I think Dooku was comparable to Malak? He was the first and foremost Makashi master, extremely skilled in the Dark side and force, a brilliant fighter, comparable to Yoda, respected by the Mandalorians, was able to break Durge into submission...

Comparible to Yoda? That alone proves nothing and Malak is arguably comparible to Yoda.
Extremely skilled in the Dark Side of the Force? Malak was too.
A Brilliant Fighter? Malak was too.
A Makashi Master? Malak was a Master of his form too AND he used a great lightsaber which was noted as requiring great skill to use.
Respected by the Mandalorians? Malak was too. He was the second most important guy in the war that crushed them.
He defeated a bounty hunter? Means nothing.

Your reasons suck and are outdone by Malak.

Proof that Revan didn't kill everyone? He HAD to fight several Sith on Rakata and because he is light he had to wipe out the evil Rakata and their Rancors. The story won't advace if you don't. Revan HAD to defeat Bastila. Revan HAD to defeat the three Sith Masters on the SF before fighting Malak or else you can't advance. Revan HAD to fight the droids on the Star Forge in the room just before fighting Malak because you can't advance until you do. He HAD to do all of those things for the story to advance. Let me repeat, Revan HAD to do all of those things for the story to advance. Don't try to argue with me on this, you don't stand a chance of making any real points or making yourself look less foolish.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
5. Because the energies released in the Holocrons carry part of the souls of the ones who made it. And he had Darth Andeddu's-who was an ancient-among others he found on Korriban...and he was on Korriban often in his youth, before and after he killed Plageuis and according to the Ancients in EE who said it'd been ten years since he'd been there....that's....2 years prior to ROTJ

No, Andeddu was not an Ancient. He has the name Darth, which means he was after Bane. Revan, Malak, Traya, Sion, Bandon, and Nihilus are the only exceptions to this and even they aren't Ancient Sith.

Even 12 years prior to ROTJ isn't ROTS. You really need to take a break or something. You aren't making any true points and are only wasting your time.

BTW, the New Essential Guide to Chronology states that Revan defeated Mandalore in hand to hand combat.

Yes, this is a triple post, I know. But, I remembered what really got Revan put higher then people like OT Vader back in the good o'll days of the forum.

The following is by Darth_Frobo, one of the old forum members who doesn't come around anymore because of the noobs. Keep in mind that this is not my personal stance, I don't hold Revan quite as highly, but it is mostly true.

Revan knew the most about the both jedi and sith then anyone ever. He plundered the tombs of all the powerful sith lords and soaked up every piece of knowledge there was to know, as well as learning all there was to know about the jedi, hell he learned how to fight from tulak hord marka ragnos and naga sadow, Revan pretty much knew every single combat trick the ancient jedi and sith ahd to offer.

2. He invented/learned thousands of ways to kill jedi and sith. As I said before he learned everything there was to know but not only that he created ways. Revan literally killed or turned every single jedi/sith that ever opposed him, hell he doesn't need to beat luke with a lightsaber (which he could) he could probably turn him to the darkside, it wouldn't be that hard Revan had done it thousands of times before, he'd just kill those luke cared for and play with his mind at every chance he got, Revan quite literally either knew or invented every single method the known to either defeat or turn a jedi.

3.Battle precognition. that's right revan could see the futur, but far more than almost any jedi. Revan was literally able to see the final outcome of entire wars even thoughs that lasted for years. Revan would know where luke's every saber stroke would land and be able to counter with a lethal blow almost every time.

4.Experience. Not hard to figure out Revan won every war he ever fought in almost single handedly he destroyed the mandalorians at the peak of their power and they were no pushovers I mean jango fett who was far from the best mandalorian killed 12 jedi barehanded, and jango fett pretty much effortlessly anhilated them. He then brought the republic to it's knees anhilating their entire army under the command of jedi and generals far superior to thos of a couple thousand years later. But that's not all he then destroyed the sith empire which by the way had infinite ressources troops and countless sith which he cut through like butter, as well as a sith lord whos power surpassed almost every single sith that followed. all that with like a quarter of the knowledge which he then regained and used to control an entire flipping sun that's right not just a star a sun (I know a star is a sun but it's much larger and i mean MUCH) to kill almost every jedi and then he went and took on the sith empire pretty much singlehandedly till the exile came along.

4. Ability. Revan had powers that after he died,(assuming he did as a true sith never dies SUPPOSEDLY) were never seen again, deathfield,kill,force storm,destroy droid just to name a few no sith lord following revan could ever us lightning on more then one target let alone kill someone,choke yes but just kill no. Revan also had mastered every single form of lightsaber combat he had a form like no other as he literally combined them all to suit his needs,(I don't know this as a fact i will admit but why know them all if he wouldn't use them?) so with greater force knowledge and lightsaber form he has a definite edge.

I'm a little long winded so know I'll have to explain certain things about anakin for those who obviously don't know very much (no offense meant)

1. He didn't live up to his potential. He COuld have been the most powerful force user ever but when obi-won cut off his legs that potential left him and Revan had arguably nearly as much if not the same amount of potential as him, just look at what kreia said about him and so on, I won't repeat it on the grounds that emperor Revan has listed them in many other debates the difference being he reached his full potential and I'd say even exceeded it.

2.Being the chosen one doesn't make you God it only means that you will bring balance to the force no where does it say in the prophesy that the chosen one would be the most powerful it only means he'll bring balance to the force. He did but I remind you that killing one sith lord with less then a tenth of the power of Revan doesn't make you the best. on the topic of luke he was only 80% as powerful as anakin but he reached his full potential which was about equal to revan the only difference being that Revan had alot more experience and a million times more knowledge of the force and lightsaber comment.

I will make one final point I sincerly apologize for writing so much but this luke is the strongest bs isn't true again really really sorry, here's my final point.

While Luke knew a great deal about the jedi he didn't know much about the sith. Revan not only knew more about the jedi but he also knew every single detail about the sith and his ability to manipulate his knowledge of both sides wheras luke is only relying on the light which is half the power of the true force.

Lightsnake = owned.

1. PAlpatine couldn't use the Jedi stuff he gathered, he explained then in no uncertain terms. Moreover, when does Luke use the dark side? And Vaapad relies on someone's inner darkness, it's very close to the darkside

2. Who faced the Naddists? The Jedi? There were....five Jedi on the planet at the time? They fought the Krath....when? In all the Sith War battles, Krath darksiders never took part....the Nightsisters? It's funny how Nightsisters weren't around until Yoda was a Jedi...

3. So what? They aren't fighting naked, BIG DEAL! So technology helps them and does a lot of their work, doesn't mean they're stronger. Take away their toys and see how well they do.

4. Dooku also used a fencing style saber that took great skill to use. And Durge was a superfast-to him, all Jedi moved in slow motion-super strong, nearly invincible monster of destruction who lived to kill....and killed Ruusan era Sith and Jedi. And Jedi and Sith before that.

5. And except for ONE time, Revan can sit back and let his party do the work. and when you slice into the terminals, the droids shut down.

6. Wait, where was it ever stated only Bane was Darth? There was a Sith named Darth Rivan, and there were also six others with the name of Darth...who says Revan didn't name himself Darth in honor of the old empire? Andeddu was dressed in ANCIENT sith gear, buried on Korriban and had a holocron...

7. And note it stated Palpatine had been on Korriban in his youth. He wasn't young in ROTS.

And Frobo's stuff?
"Always in motion is the Future." And Little Mr. "Can see the future through years away." Missed his ship being boarded and Malak blasting him?
He turned every Jedi that faced him? Bastila anyone? Turn Luke to the dark side? Please, Luke knows the dark side inside out now.
Jango far from the best Mandalorian? Please. Even Durge acknowledged him.
Using GAMEPLAY to sum up his reasons? Destroy Droid? Yoda uses it in Best Blades. Death Field? Palpatine uses it to demonstrate power to Vader. Force storm? Which is why Palpatine made one to destroy a fleet?
Revan knew every single combat trick the Jedi and Sith had to offer? Which is why Luke rediscovered techniques not known since the beginning of the Order?
Knew more about the Sith than anyone? Revan got a sex change and became Traya?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. PAlpatine couldn't use the Jedi stuff he gathered, he explained then in no uncertain terms. Moreover, when does Luke use the dark side? And Vaapad relies on someone's inner darkness, it's very close to the darkside

Then how did he get so powerful? How do people who aren't darkside gain access to Sith items?

I know what you are talking about, though. Jedi put limits on their holocrons to keep their knowledge out of the wrong hands. Sith left theirs open in hopes that they would draw more people to the Darkside.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
2. Who faced the Naddists? The Jedi? There were....five Jedi on the planet at the time? They fought the Krath....when? In all the Sith War battles, Krath darksiders never took part....the Nightsisters? It's funny how Nightsisters weren't around until Yoda was a Jedi...

Nightsisters not around until Yoda's time? Where did you hear this?
The Naddist had entire uprisings. I doubt 5 Jedi could have handled them.
I don't remember when they fought the Krath, but I've heard it mutiple times.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
3. So what? They aren't fighting naked, BIG DEAL! So technology helps them and does a lot of their work, doesn't mean they're stronger. Take away their toys and see how well they do.

No one is going to be taking away their toys though. They will WTFpwn anyone who tries.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
4. Dooku also used a fencing style saber that took great skill to use. And Durge was a superfast-to him, all Jedi moved in slow motion-super strong, nearly invincible monster of destruction who lived to kill....and killed Ruusan era Sith and Jedi. And Jedi and Sith before that.

Durge wasn't old enough to kill many people before The New Sith Wars. Durge was a bounty hunter that someone like Malak would kill with his extensive array of force powers and lightsaber skills.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
5. And except for ONE time, Revan can sit back and let his party do the work. and when you slice into the terminals, the droids shut down.

Can you prove that they did?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
6. Wait, where was it ever stated only Bane was Darth? There was a Sith named Darth Rivan, and there were also six others with the name of Darth...who says Revan didn't name himself Darth in honor of the old empire? Andeddu was dressed in ANCIENT sith gear, buried on Korriban and had a holocron...

Rivan has never been mentioned in any canonical sources. Who are these six others. Who is Revan naming himself after to honor?

He couldn have gotten the Sith gear anywhere. That is not conclusive.

No one other then the the KOTOR Sith before Bane were canonically stated as Darth's. You theory has way to many holes in it. It lacks any real evidence and can be completly disreguarded.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
7. And note it stated Palpatine had been on Korriban in his youth. He wasn't young in ROTS.

Where was this noted? Can anyone else confirm this?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And Frobo's stuff?
"Always in motion is the Future." And Little Mr. "Can see the future through years away." Missed his ship being boarded and Malak blasting him?
He turned every Jedi that faced him? Bastila anyone? Turn Luke to the dark side? Please, Luke knows the dark side inside out now.
Jango far from the best Mandalorian? Please. Even Durge acknowledged him.
Using GAMEPLAY to sum up his reasons? Destroy Droid? Yoda uses it in Best Blades. Death Field? Palpatine uses it to demonstrate power to Vader. Force storm? Which is why Palpatine made one to destroy a fleet?
Revan knew every single combat trick the Jedi and Sith had to offer? Which is why Luke rediscovered techniques not known since the beginning of the Order?
Knew more about the Sith than anyone? Revan got a sex change and became Traya?

What does Durge know? He never fought anyone that Revan fought.
What are these techniques Luke knew that no one but the first of the Order knew?
Bastila is one out of about 5000.
The Luke statement is a little dumb, but so is yours that says Luke knows the Darkside inside and out.

All the following is more or less true though.

Experience. Not hard to figure out Revan won every war he ever fought in almost single handedly he destroyed the mandalorians at the peak of their power and they were no pushovers I mean jango fett who was far from the best mandalorian killed 12 jedi barehanded, and jango fett pretty much effortlessly anhilated them. He then brought the republic to it's knees anhilating their entire army under the command of jedi and generals far superior to thos of a couple thousand years later. 3.Battle precognition. that's right revan could see the futur, but far more than almost any jedi. Revan was literally able to see the final outcome of entire wars even thoughs that lasted for years. He plundered the tombs of all the powerful sith lords and soaked up every piece of knowledge there was to know, as well as learning all there was to know about the jedi, hell he learned how to fight from tulak hord marka ragnos and naga sadow, Revan pretty much knew every single combat trick the ancient jedi and sith ahd to offer.

1. Sith don't leave their knowledge open. ODan-Urr couldn't use the Sith Holocron Exar Kun had.

2. The Jedi never took on Krath force users, and the Naddist rvolt happened once when Arca, Ulic, Tott and Cay were on world, that was it. The Naddist movement passed away after that and Naddists weren't Force users. And in Courtship of Princess Leia, we learn that in the time after Kun, the Council exiled a rogue Jedi named Alaya to Dathomir where the clans were created...the Nightsisters were a recent group, only fifty years old or so. Gethzerion founded them

3. If we're gonna have fair fights, then the Sith give up their toys and their opponents'll do the same. No enhancements.

4. Durge CANNOT be killed by a lightsaber or by the Force, it's that simple. He's immune to most force techniques...and he was about 3000....he was a thousand when the New Sith took over.

5. Turn on KOTOR, go to that point and shut down all the consoles with the correct spikes...the droids stop moving when you do.

6. Darth Rivan was mentioned in the WOTC sources alongside Bane...if we throw that out, we throw out a lot of other stuff too. WHERE was Bane canonically stated as the first Darth ever?
He could have gotten ancient Sith armor anywhere? Yeah, where from exactly? Could he have a holocron from anywhere? Or been entombed on Korriban anywhere?
7. And in EE it was mentioned Palp had visited Korriban in his youth. And it's in the databank.
8. Bastila still shows that statement is wrong entirely. And considering it was Ood Bnar who mentioned that noone had seen those artifacts since the founding of the Order many millenia ago...Ood I believe. Durge was killing Sith and Mandalorians in the New Sith Wars, including a Mandalore. Jango Fett is highly acknowledged as a great Mandaloian and did more than any other Mandalorian. And geez, I just disproved about half of that.

Revan saw the future. Would've been helpful when Malak zapped him
Revan learned from NAGA SADOW? Tulak Hord? MARKA RAGNOS?! WHAT?! Naga was dead! He wasn't even buried on Korriban! Where's it even HINTED Revan learned all of their secrets?

Do you guys get all hot and bothered with the super-posts?

yes, its called "insta win debate", cause no one wants to read their super posts.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Sith don't leave their knowledge open. ODan-Urr couldn't use the Sith Holocron Exar Kun had.

Maybe Odan-Urr was really far into the light. Anyone could get knowledge from Sith Holocrons though. What do you think made Atris fall to the Darkside?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
2. The Jedi never took on Krath force users, and the Naddist rvolt happened once when Arca, Ulic, Tott and Cay were on world, that was it. The Naddist movement passed away after that and Naddists weren't Force users. And in Courtship of Princess Leia, we learn that in the time after Kun, the Council exiled a rogue Jedi named Alaya to Dathomir where the clans were created...the Nightsisters were a recent group, only fifty years old or so. Gethzerion founded them

By Nightsisters I mean Dark Witches of Dathomir.
King Ommin was a force user and he was a Naddist. Threats were considered more real in this time.

Let me put it another way, there was no form six in this time. No one used the diplomats form back then. The Jedi thought the Sith could pop up at any moment and were ready for it. They were at war more, but the main point is that they were at war with other force users, not the CIS. They fought people who used lightsabers, not droids with blasters. It's completly different.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
3. If we're gonna have fair fights, then the Sith give up their toys and their opponents'll do the same. No enhancements.

That is retarded. The force is an enhancement. Extra muscle is an enhancement. Lightsabers are an enhancement. The Jedi were shoes designed to be an enhancement over bare feet. You don't even know how powerful the Sith are without their amulets and it is impossibe to debate that.. If you don't like them having enhancements, either get over it and accept it, or leave. That's just how it has to be.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
4. Durge CANNOT be killed by a lightsaber or by the Force, it's that simple. He's immune to most force techniques...and he was about 3000....he was a thousand when the New Sith took over.

Like I said, Durge never fought anyone Revan fought. Durge is not immune to the force techniques of a powerful enough user. A lightsaber vaporizes matter. Durge will get to the point where he can't regenerate.

Lightsabers obviously have some effect on him, since like you said, Dooku subdued him.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
5. Turn on KOTOR, go to that point and shut down all the consoles with the correct spikes...the droids stop moving when you do.

Can you prove that he did that. Most people would simply cut down their enemies, especially droids, when they wanted

Originally posted by Lightsnake
6. Darth Rivan was mentioned in the WOTC sources alongside Bane...if we throw that out, we throw out a lot of other stuff too. WHERE was Bane canonically stated as the first Darth ever?

In the New Essential Guide to Characters.
What other stuff do we lose if we remove WOTC?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
He could have gotten ancient Sith armor anywhere? Yeah, where from exactly? Could he have a holocron from anywhere? Or been entombed on Korriban anywhere?

Yes, he could. The Reborn were able to do it, so could any reasonable skilled Dark Jedi.

Making a holocron isn't especially hard as far as I know, so unless you can prove that it is we can assume that anyone could do it.
He could have gotten the armor on a random market. He could have found it on Korriban before he was buried there. He could have gotten it from plenty of different places.
It's not hard to be buried somewhere. Just get a six foot deep hole, put yourself in it and wait to die.

Nothing indicates that he was an Ancient Sith and plenty shows that he was not one.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
7. And in EE it was mentioned Palp had visited Korriban in his youth. And it's in the databank.

I didn't see it stated anywhere in there.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
8. Bastila still shows that statement is wrong entirely. And considering it was Ood Bnar who mentioned that noone had seen those artifacts since the founding of the Order many millenia ago...Ood I believe. Durge was killing Sith and Mandalorians in the New Sith Wars, including a Mandalore. Jango Fett is highly acknowledged as a great Mandaloian and did more than any other Mandalorian. And geez, I just disproved about half of that.

Jango was a great Mandalorian for him time, not out of all time.
Durge killed a weaker Mandalore like Jango.
Jango did not do more then any other Mandalorian, so stop BSing. What do you think the Mandalorian that was responsible for the Mandalorian Wars did? He made 3 seperate Wars and pushed the Republic to the edge of collapse. That's a whole lot more then bounty hunting.

Bastila was one of out of thousands. The New Essential Guide to Chronology says that the Jedi who were following Revan in the war against the Mandalorians kept following him in his war against the Republic. That's about half of the Order which is thousands of Jedi.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Revan saw the future. Would've been helpful when Malak zapped him
Revan learned from NAGA SADOW? Tulak Hord? MARKA RAGNOS?! WHAT?! Naga was dead! He wasn't even buried on Korriban! Where's it even HINTED Revan learned all of their secrets?

When he plundered their tombs and stole all of their Sith Artifacts. I think that is what he meant by learned from them.

By the way, not everyone can see every possible outcome. Mace didn't see Anakin hacking off his hand. Mundi didn't see his troopers shooting him. Sidious didn't see Vader throwing him into the Death Star reactor shaft. He's not alone in his failure to perfectly see the future, because remember that it is always in motion, but he could get a pretty clear picture most of the time.