Darth Revan Vs Mace and Mundi

1.The Sith war was forty years before the Mando wars and none of theJedi in the Jedi Civil War had participated in the Sith War. Two wars in the timeframe is more appropiate, as opposed to the Stark Hyperspace, yinchorri conflict and Bpfassh uprising and the Clone Wars within fifteen years.

2. If they COULD do it without their toys, they would

3. Y'know something? Sign up on SW.com and ask him yourself. I gave you the link and if you want to be lazy and not accept it, fine. However, don't try to argue it's not official. I'm tired of providing the same thing again and again: You want to disprove me? Ask the man yourself

4. After Horak and Dol died, the fight went out of their forces and Ludo was driven off...not to mention, Ludo attacked the wrong location.

5. Except we've SEEN other Jedi in numerous areas during the Clone Wars. When during battle planning, when Memit is briefing the Jedi, you'd think it'd help if there were mroe than five of them there to receive their plans...

6. What the hell do you mean the Massassi didn't have weapons? They'd just KILLED Aarba and were finishing with his drids. Jori had never fought anyone before so it was...battle hardened warriors vs. a kid with a saber who'd never seen combat before. There is NO exuse for a squad of Massassi dying like that, none.

7. Did Sadow BOTHER to learn anything about his enemies ebfore he attacked? And the diea that any Jedi could and would give his life to stem the flow of the Sith ios not far fetched...again, the Sith forces lost to a ragtrag group of PRISONERS.
8. You mean 'If Sadow hadn't decided to put Gav in a command position and send him to his attacked home city' etc etc etc....is Sadow the victim opf circumstance or did he just make massive blunders?

9. You mean the 'self declared dark Lord Ludo Kressh who was beaten by a devastated fleet?" Wouldn't be hard to become Dark Lord when everyone else is off on a war...

10. Yes, yes it's so terrible losing to the Chosen One destined to kill you, having control of your power wrenched away by two of the family destined to destroy you and choosing to get shot in the back to possess someone when your body dies...

11. Bane ahd he idea of the Rule of Two in Jedi vs. Sith...that's long before he visits Onderon.

12. Sidious at least bothered to have a PLAN instead of saying "OOOH, Republic, let's go blow it up!" And Ludo said it himself: Naga was so disgustingly overconfident he never bothered to check if Ludo's ship had any PEOPLE aboard! It was an empty decoy and for an empire that can read lifesigns aboard a ship... And once again...if Sadow'd bothered to bit a bit of research against his enemies and maybe decide the idea of someone sacrificing his life wasn't far fetched...

Originally posted by calvin44
Do a sock check rex, he might be Gryn Jabar.

1.The Sith war was forty years before the Mando wars and none of theJedi in the Jedi Civil War had participated in the Sith War. Two wars in the timeframe is more appropiate, as opposed to the Stark Hyperspace, yinchorri conflict and Bpfassh uprising and the Clone Wars within fifteen years.

The Sith War was 33 years before the Mandalorian wars and I wonder how you come to the idea that none of the Jedi that fought in the Great Sith War did also fight in the Mandalorian Wars or in the Jedi Civil war. Did Jedi back then simply die in the age of 50-60 automatically ? Even people like Vrook or Vandar with the first being clearly over 50 years old and the second – being one of Yoda's species could be several centuries old ?

And it doesn't matter how many conflicts you have but their length and intensity does matter.
The Great Sith War was going on for almost one year, right before you had the Freedon Nadd uprising. The Mandalorian Wars did last 3 years, then another 3 years of Jedi Civil war and 5 years from KotoR to KotoR 2 in which the remaining Sith tried to exterminate the Jedi Order.

Nobody younger then Obi-Wan did participate in the Stark Hyperspace War, which is 22 years before the Clone Wars started and lasted for less then a year. The Bpfassh uprising also less than a year. The Clone Wars lasted for 3 years.

So you have 8 years of force users vs force users for the Jedi in the KotoR era if they didn't participate in Sith War (adding another year) and less then 5 years for the PT people which did mostly fight against robots, since there wasn't an army of Dark Side users. And for the Dark Siders that served under Revan / Malak and later Sion / Kreia you would have 11 years of fighting experience.

2. If they COULD do it without their toys, they would

Yes ? Do you walk everywhere instead using a car because you could ? No ? IF other people COULD construct things like that they would and since they didn't they can't. And what do you want to tell me ? That the Ancient Sith Lords can't force choke people or use force lightning without carrying tons of toys arround with them ?
We've seen Kreia performing a nice little instakill on three Jedi masters at once, using a technique developed by the Ancient Sith and she considers herself a "child" compared to the Ancient Sith.

3. Y'know something? Sign up on SW.com and ask him yourself. I gave you the link and if you want to be lazy and not accept it, fine. However, don't try to argue it's not official. I'm tired of providing the same thing again and again: You want to disprove me? Ask the man yourself

Y'know something. I'm signed up on SW.com. That's not the point.

The point is that I'm tired of having you throw random links in somewhere that have – at least – nothing to do with the things we're talking about and don't provide any proof for your statements. You simply saying "I read somewhere that something is official" and without being able to provide anything beyond your own word you want all people to accept it. And if people don't buy it they are lazy ? If I'd say: "In Shatterpoint is said that Mace Windu is the most powerful Jedi ever." would you go and read through the entire book ? I don't think so...

5. Except we've SEEN other Jedi in numerous areas during the Clone Wars. When during battle planning, when Memit is briefing the Jedi, you'd think it'd help if there were mroe than five of them there to receive their plans...

Have you ever seen 10,000 Jedi (that's the size of the TPM Jedi Order according to "Shadowhunter"😉 anywhere ? I didn't. So they don't exist because we haven't seen them ? Interesting...In the Clone War cartoons when Grievous attacks Coruscant you have Mace, Yoda and the Jedi that went to rescue Sidious. So there weren't other Jedi fighting somewhere because we haven't seen other Jedi getting briefed or fighting despite the fact that the invasion hit Coruscant in times where the Jedi order was centralized on that planet ?

6. What the hell do you mean the Massassi didn't have weapons? They'd just KILLED Aarba and were finishing with his drids. Jori had never fought anyone before so it was...battle hardened warriors vs. a kid with a saber who'd never seen combat before. There is NO exuse for a squad of Massassi dying like that, none.

They hadn't weapons able to withstand lightsaber hits since Jori was cutting through them. And experience doesn't count here. First Jori did surprise them by even having a lightsaber, then she surprised them again by attacking and as I said Nomi Sunrider when using a lightsaber for the first time (without any training) was wielding the weapon like a master and killed a bunch of bandits that did murder her husband (which happened to be a trained Jedi) before.
So what exactly do you think the Massassi should have done considering the fact that their weapons were pretty much useless against a lightsaber and they were surprised ? Run ?

7. Did Sadow BOTHER to learn anything about his enemies ebfore he attacked? And the diea that any Jedi could and would give his life to stem the flow of the Sith ios not far fetched...again, the Sith forces lost to a ragtrag group of PRISONERS.

It's not farfatched that a Jedi in a tank filled with toxic chemicals would fly around on a planet and then unleash that toxins on your invasion force killing a great part of it instantly ? So you think that was somehow predictable ? Allright...and most of the Sith were killed by that attack then the prisoners aided by battle meditation and the defending forces were doing the rest. Great deal...

8. You mean 'If Sadow hadn't decided to put Gav in a command position and send him to his attacked home city' etc etc etc....is Sadow the victim opf circumstance or did he just make massive blunders?

The only mistake he did make was thrusting Gav. Could he control other Sith Lords (like Kressh) who didn't want to follow him ? No. Could he predict Ooroo's sacrifice ? No. Could he predict Gav's betrayals ? No. So what should he have done ? Stay at home and relax ?

9. You mean the 'self declared dark Lord Ludo Kressh who was beaten by a devastated fleet?" Wouldn't be hard to become Dark Lord when everyone else is off on a war...

Beaten by a devasted fleet ? How much "devastation" do you think a fleet does suffer from ground battles and one space battle and what has "getting rammed into oblivion by a starship" to do with getting beaten by a fleet ? A-Wing > Executor ?

10. Yes, yes it's so terrible losing to the Chosen One destined to kill you, having control of your power wrenched away by two of the family destined to destroy you and choosing to get shot in the back to possess someone when your body dies...

Yes. It's terrible when you have created the only situation in which the Chosen One would turn against you yourself, if you give the two of the family the power to destroy you yourself and if you can't manage to create a stable clone body. And destiny ? Since when is everything written in the stars and must happen ? Did I miss the part where Exar Kun installed a new Golden Age of the Sith and conquered the galaxy which was – according to Ragnos – his destiny ?

12. Sidious at least bothered to have a PLAN instead of saying "OOOH, Republic, let's go blow it up!" And Ludo said it himself: Naga was so disgustingly overconfident he never bothered to check if Ludo's ship had any PEOPLE aboard! It was an empty decoy and for an empire that can read lifesigns aboard a ship... And once again...if Sadow'd bothered to bit a bit of research against his enemies and maybe decide the idea of someone sacrificing his life wasn't far fetched...

A plan ?
"Oh no. They did sent Jedi ? I didn't want them to get involved. Erm...kill them..."
"My apprentice will find the Queen and take her back to Naboo..."
"Ups. Look. Somebody has ordered a clone army for me..."
"Ha. That dumb Anakin Skywalker really buys every stupid BS I tell him..."
"Whoa. Master Windu nearly killed me...I was lucky that Anakin did arrive..."
"KILL ALL THE JEDI !!!111oneoneeleven..."
"Damn. My uber powerful apprentice got toasted..."
"Oh...Yoda almost killed me..."
"What do you mean saying 'the Death Star is gone', Lord Vader ?"
"What ? He has a son ? I'll sure manage to get his son to the Dark Side..."
"Vader will never betray me and that Rebel fleet will get curbstomped by my forces..."
"Two Skywalkers who are nearly as powerful as their father against me who thought that there father would get twice as powerful as I am ? They have no chance..."
"I'll surely be able to get my spirit into that little child..."

It seems so that "overconfidence" is some general sickness among the Sith...And please stop using double standarts. If Naga was a stupid idiot for giving the "second in command position" to Gav, Sidious was an idiot for giving that position to Vader. They were both responsible for their own downfall by thrusting the wrong persons. And when you want to use polemics: "Oh my god. Mr Uber-powerful-mastermind Sidious let his 'best troops' get pwned by a bunch of armed Teddybears." He sure could have predicted that by learning something about the Ewoks, couldn't he ?

Originally posted by overlord
That's pure blasphemy, dude. Don't ever compare spamming to uber l33t h4X0r speech.

1. Where're Thon? Nomi Sunrider? Who's this 'Revan' and 'Bastila Shan?' Or Vandar and Vrook? They weren't prevalent in TOTJ. The Great Sith War consisted of...few battles truly involving the Jedi. Thirty three years was still quite a time before Revan's generation

2. You'd think consistently nearly being exterminated would WEAKEN the Order....Exar Kun's war lasted...a week maybe. Freedon Nadd rebellion lasted a day're two. It took a bit for the Jedi to get involved in the Mando war....and Revan's war nearly destroyed the Jedi. And the Naddist revolt involved a very small amount of the Order

3. Yinchorri War, Volfe Karkko's uprising....I'd like to know where you got the idea the Bpfassh rebellion was short, too...no figure's been given. And a year is still greater than the Great Hyperspace War and the Freedon Nadd Uprising put together.

4. Show me where the Ancoents used force choke or lightning, or did ANYTHING without their toys. And pardon me if I disbelieve Kreia 'learned that from the Ancient Sith'....what's backing that up exactly? Not only that, Kreia's a liar and talking about a far off time.

5. It'd take, what, a minute of your time to post on SW.com, asking Leland for confirmation of the error or retcon? I'd expect you to provide the quote and/or page number from Shatterpoint, btw.

6. Were any Jedi in TFotSE even MENTIONED to be on Coruscant? We SAW them arrived and Memit seemed relieved to see the ones he did. During that little thing in LoE, other Jedi were mentioned more than a bit.

7. You'll notice Nomi simply attacked and caught the murderers off guard, she didn't ignite the thing, scream or a full panel how Gav wasn't her brother and Odan gave her the lightsaber for a reason and THEN attack. I'd expect ANY warrior worth his salt to lose his shcok after a second at most. Otherwise, that's a lousy group of warriors bred to kill, especially when Sith weapons were supposed to match up to sabers....hell, Satal Keto fought Ulic with a Sith Sword.

8. Most of the Sith died in the attack? So the idea that 'still more invaders' came and were deadlocked with Kirrek didn't exist? If these Sith are supposedly worth a billion of their enemies...and Ooroo's attack wiped out a greater part of their forces? Proof there? Is it farfetched ANY Jedi would give his life for the greater good? Slam a ship into the center of your forces, cut his way through, blow himself up?....otherwise, you could simply do RESEARCH on your enemies. And what BATTLE MEDITATION? Odan-Urr was wracked in grief, tending to the dying Ooroo

9. You mean it wouldn't be a bad idea to NOT put an untrained boy as your SECOND IN COMMAND and make sure that he sees his own city that he's told you he loves being attacked and destroyed? And THREE Sith Lords didn't follow him on the council. He had the support of....what, 15 more? Could he do some DAMN RESEARCH on the Jedi he's facing? Could he make sure a dumb kid like Gav NOT have a position of command, stayed away from the battle? Could he check for LIFE SIGNS aboard Kressh's ship before attacking it? Something he did to Starbreaker twelve before vaporizing it?

10. And considering, The comic itself said-and I quote- "Only a few of Naga Sadow's ships make it back to the Sith Empire....all that remains of a force meant to challenge the galaxy." I could describe what Naga is doing on that page, too.

11. You mean when everything had gone his way for twenty years and his apprentice had constantly proved 100 percent trustworthy? And considering Kreia sees the future, not to mention ragnos never said a THING about Kun's destiny be to rule the Empire, just that he'd revived the Sith...

12. And Sidious nearly killed Yoda. And Sidious killed Mace. And Sidious was hardly bothered about Maul dying, he knew PAdme'd go back already. And considering Sidious had Sypho-Dias ORDER the clone army and Tyranus find Jango Fett...And somehow Anakin getting toasted is Sidious's fault? Let ALONE Maul's death? He was also only mildly irritated by the Death Star's passing. He came back and had the Rebels smashed quite a bit. And considering Anakin'd been stunted and Luke being a kid and him knowing Vader'd potentially betray him and knowing he was practically immortal AND having loyal servitude for twenty years....

13. Ahh, here we go....why don'y YOU send a group into unfamiliar territory facing unheard of opponents who know the forests like the back of their own hand. Unless Sidious was personally leading those attacks... And unless sadow had twenty years of loyalty from Daragon....

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Where're Thon? Nomi Sunrider? Who's this 'Revan' and 'Bastila Shan?' Or Vandar and Vrook? They weren't prevalent in TOTJ. The Great Sith War consisted of...few battles truly involving the Jedi. Thirty three years was still quite a time before Revan's generation

Not enough for somebody of Vandar's species to become a council member and not enough for having Vrook not present at that time. And please stop that "Oh. I didn't have seen it and therefore it didn't happen" stuff when it totally contradicts logic.
- Vandar can be centuries old but wasn't present in Exar Kun's time
- Vrook looks like he's well in his 50s or even 60s but wasn't present at Kun's time ?
- same goes for Kreia...

2. You'd think consistently nearly being exterminated would WEAKEN the Order....Exar Kun's war lasted...a week maybe. Freedon Nadd rebellion lasted a day're two. It took a bit for the Jedi to get involved in the Mando war....and Revan's war nearly destroyed the Jedi. And the Naddist revolt involved a very small amount of the Order

Exar Kun's war lasted a week ? Aha...lol. It took a bit of Jedi to get involved in the Mandelorian wars ? No. Those who followed Revan went there with the Republics troops. Revan's war nearly destroyed the Jedi order ? Ah...that's why we have Dantooine still standing and Coruscant to get attacked by Nihilus and Sion later because Revan's war nearly destroyed the order...
Can you please tell me how the loss of a great amount of force users would lead to a stronger Order ?

3. Yinchorri War, Volfe Karkko's uprising....I'd like to know where you got the idea the Bpfassh rebellion was short, too...no figure's been given. And a year is still greater than the Great Hyperspace War and the Freedon Nadd Uprising put together.

Yeah. No numbers are given but you of course know that the Bpfassh rebellion happening on - a single planet - with force users involved that Yoda could destroy without even using his lightsaber must have been months of fighting. Logic ?

4. Show me where the Ancoents used force choke or lightning, or did ANYTHING without their toys. And pardon me if I disbelieve Kreia 'learned that from the Ancient Sith'....what's backing that up exactly? Not only that, Kreia's a liar and talking about a far off time.

If you don't know anything don't try to argue with me. Kun in form of his spirits toasted Gantoris, knocked Dorssk-81 out without problems and before getting destroyed he force choked all of Luke's students at once. I wonder were he could have worn toys being the spirit he were.
And what's backing up that Kreia learned it from the Ancients ? I guess you've simply missed the fact that she told on numerous ocassions that all of that stuff was coming from Malachor V, a planet which was a storehouse of ancient Sith knowledge.
And yes...Kreia was obviously lieing about the power of the ancient Sith and because she know that all of them were weak idiots that could do nothing but leave knowledge back teaching her how to kill 3 Jedi Council members at once without any problem she just faked her admiration for them, because...
Oh...she didn't have any motive to lie there or did she ?

5. It'd take, what, a minute of your time to post on SW.com, asking Leland for confirmation of the error or retcon? I'd expect you to provide the quote and/or page number from Shatterpoint, btw.

And I'd expect you to provide an exact link if you want to show me something and not a random link to a 91-page-long random thread.

6. Were any Jedi in TFotSE even MENTIONED to be on Coruscant? We SAW them arrived and Memit seemed relieved to see the ones he did. During that little thing in LoE, other Jedi were mentioned more than a bit.

Just in small steps for you: You have a Jedi temple standing on Coruscant, you know that the Jedi were at least associated to the Republic. You know that Coruscant even back then was the capital world of the Republic. Now you want to tell me that not a single Jedi was present there before some other arrived because...
What was the cause exactly for a Jedi Temple just standing around on Coruscant with not a single Jedi in it ? And what was the cause for not one Jedi being present on a planet which is the heart of the governing body the Jedi were protecting ?

7. You'll notice Nomi simply attacked and caught the murderers off guard, she didn't ignite the thing, scream or a full panel how Gav wasn't her brother and Odan gave her the lightsaber for a reason and THEN attack. I'd expect ANY warrior worth his salt to lose his shcok after a second at most. Otherwise, that's a lousy group of warriors bred to kill, especially when Sith weapons were supposed to match up to sabers....hell, Satal Keto fought Ulic with a Sith Sword.

Let's see:

What comic did you read exactly, huh ?
She says Gav is not her brother while already igniting the lightsaber, gives another sentence than the Massasi try to attack her and she simply cuts through their weapons as you can see. Yeah - Sith Swords can withstand lightsaber hits - do you know the difference between Sith and Massassi or do I have to explain that ? And I was sure that you would be able to tell the difference between a "sword" and that nice weapons the Massassi are carrying.
And by the way: Is that the scene were Jori is cutting down an entire squad of Massassi warriors pwning them with the lightsaber when she does a single strike against which the Massassi did clearly have no protection as we all can see and it were just two of them present ? Any more lie...er...personal interpretation you want to give us, Lightsnake ?

8. Most of the Sith died in the attack? So the idea that 'still more invaders' came and were deadlocked with Kirrek didn't exist? If these Sith are supposedly worth a billion of their enemies...and Ooroo's attack wiped out a greater part of their forces? Proof there?

Do I really have to tell you the difference between "Massassi Warrior" and "Sith Lord" ? That's getting ridiculous. The Massassi (notice not Sith) attacked a single location and Ooroo dropped a tank with cyanogen (and himself) into them. Cyanogen is a colourless gas, and when breathed in it's reduced to cyanide which tends to kill people quite fast. Average 4,3 milligram per kg of weight is deadly meaning that 5 gram at max were enough to kill every person on that battlefield and Ooroo unleashed an entire tank filled with it on them. I wonder how he could have managed not to kill a great part of the invasion force with it.

Is it farfetched ANY Jedi would give his life for the greater good? Slam a ship into the center of your forces, cut his way through, blow himself up?....otherwise, you could simply do RESEARCH on your enemies. And what BATTLE MEDITATION? Odan-Urr was wracked in grief, tending to the dying Ooroo

How many ways can you make up how a single Jedi sacrificing himself can destroy thousands in a ground battle ? That could have easily avoided by research, eh ? "Excuse me. Is that a Jedi in that tank ?" "Yes." "Why is he in there ?" "Oh...he can only breath some stuff that would kill all other lifeforms around him." "Ah...so he might sacrifice himself and unleash that stuff killing an entire army..."
ROFL. And Odan Urr did use battle meditation before Ooroo's sacrifice and despite of that the Massassi were still winning, if you missed that also...

9. You mean it wouldn't be a bad idea to NOT put an untrained boy as your SECOND IN COMMAND and make sure that he sees his own city that he's told you he loves being attacked and destroyed? And THREE Sith Lords didn't follow him on the council. He had the support of....what, 15 more? Could he do some DAMN RESEARCH on the Jedi he's facing? Could he make sure a dumb kid like Gav NOT have a position of command, stayed away from the battle? Could he check for LIFE SIGNS aboard Kressh's ship before attacking it? Something he did to Starbreaker twelve before vaporizing it?

Oh. You think it's as stupid at putting a damn boy in a suit as second in command making him watch you torturing his son while turning his back on him with a reactor shaft in front of you ?
When Sadow's trick (the faked Republic attack) was discovered he had much less friends that he had before and that was a 50 / 50 situation between him and Kressh.
Research on the Jedi ? How ? Sending Massassi there to spy on them or go yourself ? Leaving Gav behind and attacking without knowing where he has to go ? Nice idea.

10. And considering, The comic itself said-and I quote- "Only a few of Naga Sadow's ships make it back to the Sith Empire....all that remains of a force meant to challenge the galaxy." I could describe what Naga is doing on that page, too.

And where does it say "and that was the entire force of the Ancient Sith Empire" ? Sadow had still enough ships to create a nice blockade out of them which the Tetans couldn't pass...

11. You mean when everything had gone his way for twenty years and his apprentice had constantly proved 100 percent trustworthy? And considering Kreia sees the future, not to mention ragnos never said a THING about Kun's destiny be to rule the Empire, just that he'd revived the Sith...

Allright...Vader must have been the first "100 % trustworthy" Sith Lord in the universe and of course you couldn't have forseen that somebody who sacrificed the entire Jedi order for the love to his wife wouldn't kick your damn ass across the place when you try to touch his son...

12. And Sidious nearly killed Yoda.

Oh yes. You mean when Yoda, standing at the outside of the pod defeated Sidious in a force battle but was falling down because having the worse position ?

And Sidious killed Mace.

Which had of course nothing to do with Anakin coming in and saving his ass by cutting Mace's lightsaber arm off.

And Sidious was hardly bothered about Maul dying, he knew PAdme'd go back already.

Yeah. I wouldn't be hardly bothered too if I trained somebody for some decades and he just dies...

And considering Sidious had Sypho-Dias ORDER the clone army and Tyranus find Jango Fett...And somehow Anakin getting toasted is Sidious's fault? Let ALONE Maul's death? He was also only mildly irritated by the Death Star's passing. He came back and had the Rebels smashed quite a bit. And considering Anakin'd been stunted and Luke being a kid and him knowing Vader'd potentially betray him and knowing he was practically immortal AND having loyal servitude for twenty years....

Sidious didn't have the plan to create a clone army until Sypho-Dyas showed up with his foresight about dark times. Who trained Maul again and made him that arrogant ? Who did sent Anakin to Karmino thinking that all Jedi are death ?
I loved his "pratically immortality" - of course without the body rotting away while walking around and the clone madness and so on...

13. Ahh, here we go....why don'y YOU send a group into unfamiliar territory facing unheard of opponents who know the forests like the back of their own hand. Unless Sidious was personally leading those attacks... And unless sadow had twenty years of loyalty from Daragon....

And again Mr. Double Standart aka Lightsnake has done it. So Sadow should have done some research on the Jedi but Sidious didn't have to do research on a planet he built the protection for his Death Star on ? So spying on Jedi is easier than doing research on a bunch of primitive Teddybears ? And Sadow was leading one attack personally which was the battle of Coruscant and were he was betrayed. And where had Sidious twenty years of loyality from Anakin ? He made him "second in command" in ROTS less then an hour after Anakin did want to kill him and a few hours later the thing that bound Anakin to Sidious (Padme) was also gone.
In the same moment Sidious got to know about Luke he should have either killed Luke or Vader. How could he even think that Vader who sacrificed everything for Padme wouldn't sacrifice everything again for Padme's child - his son ?

Syfo-Dias, not Sypho. 😗

And there's my contribution...

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Proof the Kanz, Ganks and droids required the entire Jedi order? The Yinchorri threatened the galaxy and Volfe Karkko was a danger to the entire order, and Zalem threatened the galaxy herself.

It was called a full-scale war. That means everyone was involved. If you can't understand that, we have nothing less to talk about, you're a helpless moron. Zalem and Volfe were threats, but they weren't military threats and we know that Zalem only required 1 or 2 Jedi.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
2. And the Mandalorians sucked in those times...proof? They gave the RuusanSith trouble and Durge has killed TWO Mandalores: One in JAster's time, and the one who murdered his trainer. And Durge was killing Jedi Ruusan AND Sith. The latter being around.....2500 BBY? And for the record: Nomi's skills were down instantly. It's called 'rage'

This paragraph is full of unfounded BS. Moving on...

Originally posted by Lightsnake
3. Revan's wars were in....3960-50 something. That's FORTY YEARS after the great Sith war, several centuries after the great droid rebellion, 300 years before the Schism for an Order that's likely STILL REBUILDING FROM NIHILIUS AND SION....great credentials.

WTF? Do you understand a timeline at all? Go look at one for a few minutes please. Revan was trained only a few years after the Great Sith War. Trained, not lived.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
4. Who's double playing? Until the Naddists, they hadn't faced a threat in centuries. After that, they lost half their order, then about....what, ninety percent of it to Sion and Nihilius? I don't think 'strength' falls under 'getting exterminated'

Go look at a timeline. You have everything out of order. Revan was trained just after the Great Sith War. That was a threat.

Oh, and note that 99.99% of the Order was killed during Mace's time. Talk about getting extreminated.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
5. In the NEC, it said the ganks embarked on war...until promptly put down by the Jedi. The Kanz disorder lasted three centuries...until toppled by the Jedi. Never ANY hint they got involved until the end. And the Yinchorri wars threatened the Republic until Valorum had them blockaded

Either you have a reading disorder or are lying. 'promptly' isn't in there anywhere. Seeing as the Jedi were the primary defense for the Republic saying that they didn't fight until the end is downright stupid.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
6. Nadd proficient in Sith magic? Sadow refused to teach him a damn bit of power? Killed a master as an apprentice? Yes....by ACCIDENT during a sparring match. Fought off the beast riders? You mean a newly formed rabble group that had nothing to stand up to his power...hell, it's a sign of Nadd's deficiency that he couldn't annihilate them.

Nadd helped Jedi Master's captive even as a spirit and had many Sith Amulets. Go look over all the FACTS again.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
7. Seventeen Dark Jedi is a lot more than Exar Kun had serving him. And in Labyrinth of Evil and the Grievous Visionaries story, it's revealed Grievous was commander because it was known he'd butcher a thousand worlds and would be an easy scapegoat at war's end for Tyranus and Sidious.

17 Dark Jedi compared to 5,000 Dark Jedi in the 3rd Great Jedi Schism. BTW, it's quality, not quantity. Exar or Ulic could pwn all 17 of the CIS's Dark Jedi with ease.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
8. Fights have rules in this case. Otherwise we can just say 'so and so would rig the room and never show up'

We can say that, but people will consider you a moron. Having their Amulets is directly part of their power.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
9. Considering in the HS trilogy, we never learn when Xendor's rebellion was, LET ALONE a time frame...

Considering that's not the only source it doesn't matter...

Originally posted by Lightsnake
10. Yes, I'm certain non-Ancients didn't have Dark Side armor. Yes, I'm sure Ludo Kressh's spirit didn't inhabit a tomb-how was it built exactly? he was VAPORIZED IN SPACE AND HIS PEOPLE SUBSEQUENTLY EXTERMINATED.
Yes, as KJA said that Ragnos was the last Sith lord buried on Korriban.
Fight the facts all you want.

I don't care if you're certain. Prove up.

When did KJA say this? Back it up and cut the BS because in KOTOR 1 and 2 we see their tombs.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
11. The death watch were EXACTLY like the Mandalorians of revan's time: Cowardly butchers who massacred innocents. They split because the DW wanted to continue the old traditions of murder and mayhem. And name a single innocent person Jango murdered in cold blood, now.

Any proof of that? No? That's what I thought.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
12. WHAT?! You mean, the Republic decided to think the Mandalorians WEREN'T savage butchers of the innocent and would show some goddamn humanity by not SLAUGHTERING innocent people and were proven wrong?

The Republic put them there, it's their fault. I don't see you defending all of the Nazi's who were killed who never actually killed an innocent.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
12. Jango made the Mandalorians great again. After numerous millenia of butchery and psychosis.....and seriously, Canderous got the old Mandalorian remnants, most of whom were already warriors.

Jango made them nothing. He ended up being the one who let them die. It was other's, like Boba, who made them great again.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
13. WHAT THE HELL?! The Hapan empire was canonically STATED in the Courtship of Princess Leia, in the very opening chapters to be 60 worlds! The Tetan system was seven worlds...Considering the Sith Empire was described as /tiny/ next to the Republic and-not only that- the Hutt empire around the size of the Hapans...
Where was this Empire figure stated now?

It has 63 ruling worlds, but considering it was able to stave off the 6 million planet Empire and the had people who wore hairpieces worth more then five planets(stated in 'Darkest Knight', they have tens of thousands of other planets.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And Canderous was referring to soldier strength, your point? Doesn't mean he had a huge collection of worlds. In fact, in the old marvel comics, when the Mandalorian empire was first established, they have a small collection from the old Taungs...nothing close to 200,000 worlds-where the HELL are you getting these figures?-, including concord Dawn, Ordo, Mandalore, Shogun,Kutar....Mandalore the Indomitable even acknowledged the Mandalorian empire as small but strong. Outnumbered five to one doesn't refer to the galaxy and holdings, it refers to who there they were fighting and the soldier number

They were outnumbered 5 - 1. The Republic had 1 million planets. 200,000 is a fifth of that. They were also more powerful then the Hutt's. The Hutt's had over a hundred thousand planets. Stop denying the facts.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Not enough for somebody of Vandar's species to become a council member and not enough for having Vrook not present at that time. And please stop that "Oh. I didn't have seen it and therefore it didn't happen" stuff when it totally contradicts logic.
- Vandar can be centuries old but wasn't present in Exar Kun's time
- Vrook looks like he's well in his 50s or even 60s but wasn't present at Kun's time ?
- same goes for Kreia...

Exar Kun's war lasted a week ? Aha...lol. It took a bit of Jedi to get involved in the Mandelorian wars ? No. Those who followed Revan went there with the Republics troops. Revan's war nearly destroyed the Jedi order ? Ah...that's why we have Dantooine still standing and Coruscant to get attacked by Nihilus and Sion later because Revan's war nearly destroyed the order...
Can you please tell me how the loss of a great amount of force users would lead to a stronger Order ?

Yeah. No numbers are given but you of course know that the Bpfassh rebellion happening on - [b]a single planet - with force users involved that Yoda could destroy without even using his lightsaber must have been months of fighting. Logic ?

If you don't know anything don't try to argue with me. Kun in form of his spirits toasted Gantoris, knocked Dorssk-81 out without problems and before getting destroyed he force choked all of Luke's students at once. I wonder were he could have worn toys being the spirit he were.
And what's backing up that Kreia learned it from the Ancients ? I guess you've simply missed the fact that she told on numerous ocassions that all of that stuff was coming from Malachor V, a planet which was a storehouse of ancient Sith knowledge.
And yes...Kreia was obviously lieing about the power of the ancient Sith and because she know that all of them were weak idiots that could do nothing but leave knowledge back teaching her how to kill 3 Jedi Council members at once without any problem she just faked her admiration for them, because...
Oh...she didn't have any motive to lie there or did she ?

And I'd expect you to provide an exact link if you want to show me something and not a random link to a 91-page-long random thread.

Just in small steps for you: You have a Jedi temple standing on Coruscant, you know that the Jedi were at least associated to the Republic. You know that Coruscant even back then was the capital world of the Republic. Now you want to tell me that not a single Jedi was present there before some other arrived because...
What was the cause exactly for a Jedi Temple just standing around on Coruscant with not a single Jedi in it ? And what was the cause for not one Jedi being present on a planet which is the heart of the governing body the Jedi were protecting ?

Let's see:

What comic did you read exactly, huh ?
She says Gav is not her brother while already igniting the lightsaber, gives another sentence than the Massasi try to attack her and she simply cuts through their weapons as you can see. Yeah - Sith Swords can withstand lightsaber hits - do you know the difference between Sith and Massassi or do I have to explain that ? And I was sure that you would be able to tell the difference between a "sword" and that nice weapons the Massassi are carrying.
And by the way: Is that the scene were Jori is cutting down an entire squad of Massassi warriors pwning them with the lightsaber when she does a single strike against which the Massassi did clearly have no protection as we all can see and it were just two of them present ? Any more lie...er...personal interpretation you want to give us, Lightsnake ?

Do I really have to tell you the difference between "Massassi Warrior" and "Sith Lord" ? That's getting ridiculous. The Massassi (notice not Sith) attacked a single location and Ooroo dropped a tank with cyanogen (and himself) into them. Cyanogen is a colourless gas, and when breathed in it's reduced to cyanide which tends to kill people quite fast. Average 4,3 milligram per kg of weight is deadly meaning that 5 gram at max were enough to kill every person on that battlefield and Ooroo unleashed an entire tank filled with it on them. I wonder how he could have managed not to kill a great part of the invasion force with it.

How many ways can you make up how a single Jedi sacrificing himself can destroy thousands in a ground battle ? That could have easily avoided by research, eh ? "Excuse me. Is that a Jedi in that tank ?" "Yes." "Why is he in there ?" "Oh...he can only breath some stuff that would kill all other lifeforms around him." "Ah...so he might sacrifice himself and unleash that stuff killing an entire army..."
ROFL. And Odan Urr did use battle meditation before Ooroo's sacrifice and despite of that the Massassi were still winning, if you missed that also...

Oh. You think it's as stupid at putting a damn boy in a suit as second in command making him watch you torturing his son while turning his back on him with a reactor shaft in front of you ?
When Sadow's trick (the faked Republic attack) was discovered he had much less friends that he had before and that was a 50 / 50 situation between him and Kressh.
Research on the Jedi ? How ? Sending Massassi there to spy on them or go yourself ? Leaving Gav behind and attacking without knowing where he has to go ? Nice idea.

And where does it say "and that was the entire force of the Ancient Sith Empire" ? Sadow had still enough ships to create a nice blockade out of them which the Tetans couldn't pass... [/B]

1. Great, when the entire Jedi council gathered, where were Vrook, Vandar and Kreia exactly? Or is it more KOTOR bs?

2. Aha, lol: Kun didn't even GET INVOLVED in the military part until the end when his complete lack of strategy ended in total defeat AFTER Ulic messed up royally....how long did the war last?

3. As opposed to the ganks and Kanz disorders? And Yoda killing themw without his saber? Last I checked, he had to finish one of them with a saber on Dagobah.

4. Gee, Kun was only said to have been in a nest of Dark Side energies with the stolen force potential of...millions of people? And where's the proof Kreia couldn't utilize that technique, as did Sion as his assasins to replace the hole in the force that Nihilius took from her?

5. Thanks for proving my point. The Masassi don't look surprised, now do they? One of them was even holding a goddamn SITH SWORD! Yes, untrained girl who gives them a damn good chance between igniting the thing-she's still a fair bit away- to charge and kill them all. Of course, it's better than the Sith Lords who get caught off guard by a bunch of Massassi with knives. And single strike? Yep, mmmhmm

7. And it'd have killed Sadow to do research? And considering we see MEMIT NADILL killing a Sith Lord and Shark Dakhan standing around like an idiot doing nothing during a battle...yes, what a race of gods...though it's better than needing inducements to go to war to avenge the tragic death of a talking head.

8. and quote from Odann: "I'm TRYING to use my battle meditation, but it does not seem possible to sway the fury of the Masassi."
9. Please, stop trying to change the focus: At the very least, Sidious had a TWENTY YEARS WORTH of competent apprentice...Gav'd known Naga for two days and suddenly Naga's sending him to watch Cinnagar burn? and I believe Gav said it himself: Taking all Naga did would leave the Sith empire practically undefended, and Naga said they were sending all their forces to focus on a new target...and Naga said he was summoning all the fleets from the scattered star systems...and if he had gargantuan fleets, he wouldn't ever have needed illusions
10. Proof Sidious lost to yoda in a force battle. Nothing of the sort ever happened, unless Sidious died or was incapacitated while his enemy wasn't.

11. Saving Sidious's ass? As iff Sidious wouldn't have just hurled Mace out the window instead of faking an entire lightning sequence to fool Anakin...but, oh no, Samuel L. Jackson is soooo uber and Sidious sucks sooooo much

12. Considering Sidious already had several other possible apprentices lined up from Maul, Dooku being a candidate, along with Anakin himself...

13. Notice the Clone Madness was brought on by people tampering with the clone before he even inhabited it...as opposed to the six years BEFORE that. And who cautioned Sypho to create the Clone wars? Sidious. He got an idea and put it into motion. And PAlpatine completely disapproved of Maul's absolute idiocy that got him killed.

14. You mean: Discover the tiniest bits of a remote planet your troops are hardly ever stationed on, has no strategic value and zero importance....this is opposed to taking a moment to brief yourself on the leaders of the Jedi Order and the Tetans....when Palpatine fails to know anything about Mon Mothma or Rieekan, then it's comparable. And considering Anakin proved himself by assaulting the Jedi temple moments later, after Palpatine had been manipulating him for thirteen years or so.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
It was called a [b]full-scale war. That means everyone was involved. If you can't understand that, we have nothing less to talk about, you're a helpless moron. Zalem and Volfe were threats, but they weren't military threats and we know that Zalem only required 1 or 2 Jedi.

This paragraph is full of unfounded BS. Moving on...

WTF? Do you understand a timeline at all? Go look at one for a few minutes please. Revan was trained only a few years after the Great Sith War. Trained, not lived.

Go look at a timeline. You have everything out of order. Revan was trained just after the Great Sith War. That was a threat.

Oh, and note that 99.99% of the Order was killed during Mace's time. Talk about getting extreminated.

Either you have a reading disorder or are lying. 'promptly' isn't in there anywhere. Seeing as the Jedi were the primary defense for the Republic saying that they didn't fight until the end is downright stupid.

Nadd helped Jedi Master's captive even as a spirit and had many Sith Amulets. Go look over all the FACTS again.

17 Dark Jedi compared to 5,000 Dark Jedi in the 3rd Great Jedi Schism. BTW, it's quality, not quantity. Exar or Ulic could pwn all 17 of the CIS's Dark Jedi with ease.

We can say that, but people will consider you a moron. Having their Amulets is directly part of their power.

Considering that's not the only source it doesn't matter...

I don't care if you're certain. Prove up.

When did KJA say this? Back it up and cut the BS because in KOTOR 1 and 2 we see their tombs.

Any proof of that? No? That's what I thought.

The Republic put them there, it's their fault. I don't see you defending all of the Nazi's who were killed who never actually killed an innocent.

Jango made them nothing. He ended up being the one who let them die. It was other's, like Boba, who made them great again.

It has 63 ruling worlds, but considering it was able to stave off the 6 million planet Empire and the had people who wore hairpieces worth more then five planets(stated in 'Darkest Knight', they have tens of thousands of other planets.

They were outnumbered 5 - 1. The Republic had 1 million planets. 200,000 is a fifth of that. They were also more powerful then the Hutt's. The Hutt's had over a hundred thousand planets. Stop denying the facts. [/B]

1. That's mainly because Zalem never got to Infinity's End. Karkko was enough to stir the entire Order. And the Kanz disorder was never a full scale war. It was a dictatorship that was overthrown by the Jedi three years later. Full scale war never mentioned. And the Ganks were mentioned as embarking on a full scale war...until promptly put down.

2. Read SW Visionaries: The last line in Prototypes is how Durge is going to assault the Mandalorians and Ung Kusp for Jaing's death....and want proof of that little New Sith Thing? Star Wars Insider, issue 80. Nice pic of the Mandalorian forces attacking the Dark Underlord's. Any proof for your statements on how the new Sith were weak?

3. How old was Revan I wonder? And as he was a newborn, he'd have to have been pushing forty by the time of his war.

4. Note that nearly the entire order was exterminated in Revan's time and is being nicely rebuilt by Luke.

5. The Republic didn't get involved in Kanz for three hundred years. And the Gank wars were over when the Jedi got involved, according to the NEC.

6. You mean...'Nadd held Arca's spirit captive with the help of king Ommin, Warb Null, after driving Arca into near unconcsiousness after surprising him, with Sith amulets?'

7. PRoof of 5,000 Dark Jedi in the great schism. And Proof Exar or Ulic could take seventeen knights with ease. Ulic wasn't exactly Mr. tough guy.

8. If amulets are a direct part of their power, their dependancy on them is a massive weakness. Remove the amulets from a fight with JUST the force and JUST swordsplay, no stimulants, no amulets/gauntlets containing force enchanging crystals and let's see how the Sith do.

9. You're right: Only the Han Solo trilogy and the NEC, along with WOTC stuff mention Xendor.

10. When did KJA say this? Bane of the Sith, Tales of the Jedi companion....and seriously, Borbarad should be able to back me up on THIS at least: was Ludo Kressh vaporized or not vaporized in space. Did the Sith have time to build a massive temple when they were in the process of extermination from the Sith? Why does the big statue outside of Darth Andeddu's tomb have Sith facial protrusions? The world may never know...

11. Jango Fett open seasons: Stated that Jaster wished to reform the Mandos and Vizsla thought they should conquer the galaxy. And one of Vizsla's charming lines about Jango's sister: "We don't leave witnesses, take care of her."

12. The Republic PUT them there? How about "The Republic took refuge amongst them?" Any excuses for what the Mandalorians did to the Cathar? They drove them to near EXTINCTION, JUST to 'test their worth'....no Republic involved.

13. Quote from Ghez Hokan: "Jango Fett was a source of great pride to the surviving Mandalorians. Even if he fought for money, he was the best."
I have the page number if you'd like it. Jango raised them back up. The Mandalorians followed him, a young man, barely a commander because they wanted to, because they loved him, because he was Jaster's legacy. THAT is true greatness. Jango didn't smother them with strength and brutality: He made himself a beloved leader to them. Silas, a Mandalorian, died crying believing he'd betrayed Jango in some small way. Montross and the Death Watch murdered innocent people and blamed Jango's men. Jango did something totally unfounded: He survived. He came back. He wiped out the Death Watch and killed Vizsla and Montross: He was a truer warrior than most any of those butchers.

14. You miss the part where Hapes was subjugated. And considering only the sixty worlds are ever mentioned as being part of the Hpan empire...remember the gift giving parts to Leia in Courtship? 60 gifts for sixty worlds, with Isolder from Hapes itself. I'd think those other 100,000 planets would have contributed, being part of Hapes...

15. Was the Republic that big back then? Were the Mandos referring to the galaxy or the Force they were specifically facing there? To the number of soldiers? 'Forces' aren't 'planets', they're soldiers. Where is it HINTED the Hutts have 100,000 worlds? Was Persia over a hundred times bigger than Greece at Thermopalye?

Lightsnake, all of your arguments are crap. They are unfounded and I can think of many times when you have downright lied about information. I am finished with you.

1. Great, when the entire Jedi council gathered, where were Vrook, Vandar and Kreia exactly? Or is it more KOTOR bs?

And where were all of those other reputed "10000" Jedi when the Separatists attacked Coruscant? Sitting back and sipping a martini? So wait, clearly the source that said 10000 is unreliable because we only saw less than a dozen! Great logic...

How is it KOTOR BS? We know those people were alive and were Jedi at the time because of the official timeline, you arguing that you "didn't see them" is BS. We never actually see Naga Sadow use a lightsaber, does that mean he can't? Bullshit.

2. Aha, lol: Kun didn't even GET INVOLVED in the military part until the end when his complete lack of strategy ended in total defeat AFTER Ulic messed up royally....how long did the war last?

I believe Bomborad is using the official dates. If you want to assert that the war lasted 2 days, give us proof.

In case you're not the brightest crayon in the box:

proof ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prf)
n.
The evidence or argument that compels the mind to accept an assertion as true.

The validation of a proposition by application of specified rules, as of induction or deduction, to assumptions, axioms, and sequentially derived conclusions.
A statement or argument used in such a validation.

Convincing or persuasive demonstration: was asked for proof of his identity; an employment history that was proof of her dependability.
The state of being convinced or persuaded by consideration of evidence.
Determination of the quality of something by testing; trial: put one's beliefs to the proof.
Law. The result or effect of evidence; the establishment or denial of a fact by evidence.
The alcoholic strength of a liquor, expressed by a number that is twice the percentage by volume of alcohol present.
Printing.
A trial sheet of printed material that is made to be checked and corrected. Also called proof sheet.
A trial impression of a plate, stone, or block taken at any of various stages in engraving.

A trial photographic print.
Any of a limited number of newly minted coins or medals struck as specimens and for collectors from a new die on a polished planchet.
Archaic. Proven impenetrability: “I was clothed in Armor of proof” (John Bunyan).

adj.
Fully or successfully resistant; impervious. Often used in combination: waterproof watches; a fireproof cellar door.
Of standard alcoholic strength.
Used in proving or making corrections.

4. Gee, Kun was only said to have been in a nest of Dark Side energies with the stolen force potential of...millions of people? And where's the proof Kreia couldn't utilize that technique, as did Sion as his assasins to replace the hole in the force that Nihilius took from her?

How does Kun being in a nest of Dark Side energies have anything to do with KNOWING HOW TO USE FORCE CHOKE?

First you asserted that you've never seen them use it without their toys, and then it's suddenly the fact they have force energy. So wait, they just picked up the technique out of the blue?

5. Thanks for proving my point. The Masassi don't look surprised, now do they? One of them was even holding a goddamn SITH SWORD! Yes, untrained girl who gives them a damn good chance between igniting the thing-she's still a fair bit away- to charge and kill them all. Of course, it's better than the Sith Lords who get caught off guard by a bunch of Massassi with knives. And single strike? Yep, mmmhmm

Are you blind? Which one of the whole 2 there is holding a sith sword?

How does this prove you right when you asserted there were "a squad" of them with sith swords? If anything, it establishes you as an unreliable loon.

7. And it'd have killed Sadow to do research? And considering we see MEMIT NADILL killing a Sith Lord and Shark Dakhan standing around like an idiot doing nothing during a battle...yes, what a race of gods...though it's better than needing inducements to go to war to avenge the tragic death of a talking head.

Yes, I suppose that Sidious not being able to stop a bunch of EWOKS is soooooo much better? BTW, you still dodged that point.

Or did you forget where Exar kills Odan with a wave of his hand? Or when Sadow was winning the ground battle before he was blasted? Ooops, I guess they don't support your argument, so naturally they were not-so-creatively omitted. Present the damn evidence -- all of it.

9. Please, stop trying to change the focus: At the very least, Sidious had a TWENTY YEARS WORTH of competent apprentice...Gav'd known Naga for two days and suddenly Naga's sending him to watch Cinnagar burn? and I believe Gav said it himself: Taking all Naga did would leave the Sith empire practically undefended, and Naga said they were sending all their forces to focus on a new target...and Naga said he was summoning all the fleets from the scattered star systems...and if he had gargantuan fleets, he wouldn't ever have needed illusions

The first task Sidious had for his brand new apprentice was to go to Mustafar and he wound up facing his master and got diced. Yeah, some awesome Sith Lord.

10. Proof Sidious lost to yoda in a force battle. Nothing of the sort ever happened, unless Sidious died or was incapacitated while his enemy wasn't.

I don't know about you, but when someone's leaning backward from the power of the force lightning and then pushes himself up to a vertical base (a la the fight in ROTS, how convenient), that's overpowering your opponent. He turned a leverage disadvantage into an advantage, as evidenced by Sidious' laughing turning into horror.

11. Saving Sidious's ass? As iff Sidious wouldn't have just hurled Mace out the window instead of faking an entire lightning sequence to fool Anakin...but, oh no, Samuel L. Jackson is soooo uber and Sidious sucks sooooo much

Where's the canon evidence that Sidious was trying to fool him or that he could have hurled Windu out of the window?

Wait a minute, there isn't any! So wait, we aren't allowed to make logically sound inferences based on official material about Jedi lifespans and war involvement, but you're allowed to assume this half-assed crap about Sidious being able to hurl Mace out of the window while he was scrunched in the corner of his window and on all fours?

Wow, hypocrisy man, get a load of yourself.

12. Considering Sidious already had several other possible apprentices lined up from Maul, Dooku being a candidate, along with Anakin himself...

He had a 10 year old already lined up? How long do you think it would have to be before he proved useful? And if he had Anakin lined up, why did he send Maul to kill the only guy that wanted to train him?!

Or did you miss the part where the council rejected the request for Qui-Gon to train the boy?

Yeah, Anakin would have been a great apprentice as a 10 year old untrained podracer!

And how would Dooku be "lined up" when he defected from the order at around the same timeline as TPM itself?

13. Notice the Clone Madness was brought on by people tampering with the clone before he even inhabited it...as opposed to the six years BEFORE that. And who cautioned Sypho to create the Clone wars? Sidious. He got an idea and put it into motion. And PAlpatine completely disapproved of Maul's absolute idiocy that got him killed.

Okay, so he disproved of his idiocy. He just committed his own idiocy that got him thrown down a damn reactor shaft. GG!

14. You mean: Discover the tiniest bits of a remote planet your troops are hardly ever stationed on, has no strategic value and zero importance....this is opposed to taking a moment to brief yourself on the leaders of the Jedi Order and the Tetans....when Palpatine fails to know anything about Mon Mothma or Rieekan, then it's comparable. And considering Anakin proved himself by assaulting the Jedi temple moments later, after Palpatine had been manipulating him for thirteen years or so.

That's like saying Luke didn't know about the full power of the emperor.

It's a bit easier when Palpatine has the resources of the most powerful galatic entity in the saga. It's a tiny bit harder to do research from Sadow's position, what's he going to look out? Conveniently placed holocrons? This isn't a video game.

Pwnt.

👇

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Lightsnake, all of your arguments are crap. They are unfounded and I can think of many times when you have downright lied about information. I am finished with you.

Originally posted by Illustrious
And where were all of those other reputed "10000" Jedi when the Separatists attacked Coruscant? Sitting back and sipping a martini? So wait, clearly the source that said 10000 is unreliable because we only saw less than a dozen! Great logic...

How is it KOTOR BS? We know those people were alive and were Jedi at the time because of the official timeline, you arguing that you "didn't see them" is BS. We never actually see Naga Sadow use a lightsaber, does that mean he can't? Bullshit.

I believe Bomborad is using the official dates. If you want to assert that the war lasted 2 days, give us [b]proof.

In case you're not the brightest crayon in the box:

proof ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prf)
n.
The evidence or argument that compels the mind to accept an assertion as true.

The validation of a proposition by application of specified rules, as of induction or deduction, to assumptions, axioms, and sequentially derived conclusions.
A statement or argument used in such a validation.

Convincing or persuasive demonstration: was asked for proof of his identity; an employment history that was proof of her dependability.
The state of being convinced or persuaded by consideration of evidence.
Determination of the quality of something by testing; trial: put one's beliefs to the proof.
Law. The result or effect of evidence; the establishment or denial of a fact by evidence.
The alcoholic strength of a liquor, expressed by a number that is twice the percentage by volume of alcohol present.
Printing.
A trial sheet of printed material that is made to be checked and corrected. Also called proof sheet.
A trial impression of a plate, stone, or block taken at any of various stages in engraving.

A trial photographic print.
Any of a limited number of newly minted coins or medals struck as specimens and for collectors from a new die on a polished planchet.
Archaic. Proven impenetrability: “I was clothed in Armor of proof” (John Bunyan).

adj.
Fully or successfully resistant; impervious. Often used in combination: waterproof watches; a fireproof cellar door.
Of standard alcoholic strength.
Used in proving or making corrections.

How does Kun being in a nest of Dark Side energies have anything to do with KNOWING HOW TO USE FORCE CHOKE?

First you asserted that you've never seen them use it without their toys, and then it's suddenly the fact they have force energy. So wait, they just picked up the technique out of the blue?

Are you blind? Which one of the whole 2 there is holding a sith sword?

How does this prove you right when you asserted there were "a squad" of them with sith swords? If anything, it establishes you as an unreliable loon.

Yes, I suppose that Sidious not being able to stop a bunch of EWOKS is soooooo much better? BTW, you still dodged that point.

Or did you forget where Exar kills Odan with a wave of his hand? Or when Sadow was winning the ground battle before he was blasted? Ooops, I guess they don't support your argument, so naturally they were not-so-creatively omitted. Present the damn evidence -- all of it.

The first task Sidious had for his brand new apprentice was to go to Mustafar and he wound up facing his master and got diced. Yeah, some awesome Sith Lord.

I don't know about you, but when someone's leaning backward from the power of the force lightning and then pushes himself up to a vertical base (a la the fight in ROTS, how convenient), that's overpowering your opponent. He turned a leverage disadvantage into an advantage, as evidenced by Sidious' laughing turning into horror.

Where's the canon evidence that Sidious was trying to fool him or that he could have hurled Windu out of the window?

Wait a minute, there isn't any! So wait, we aren't allowed to make logically sound inferences based on official material about Jedi lifespans and war involvement, but you're allowed to assume this half-assed crap about Sidious being able to hurl Mace out of the window while he was scrunched in the corner of his window and on all fours?

Wow, hypocrisy man, get a load of yourself.

He had a 10 year old already lined up? How long do you think it would have to be before he proved useful? And if he had Anakin lined up, why did he send Maul to kill the only guy that wanted to train him?!

Or did you miss the part where the council rejected the request for Qui-Gon to train the boy?

Yeah, Anakin would have been a great apprentice as a 10 year old untrained podracer!

And how would Dooku be "lined up" when he defected from the order at around the same timeline as TPM itself?

Okay, so he disproved of his idiocy. He just committed his own idiocy that got him thrown down a damn reactor shaft. GG!

That's like saying Luke didn't know about the full power of the emperor.

It's a bit easier when Palpatine has the resources of the most powerful galatic entity in the saga. It's a tiny bit harder to do research from Sadow's position, what's he going to look out? Conveniently placed holocrons? This isn't a video game. [/B]

1. Oh, y'know...fighting, defending, around other worlds, that kinda thing. I suggest reading LOE

2. According to the timeline.....the war with the Krath started at....3,997, Kun got involved around that time, vanished completely to start a shadow cult, recruited twenty Jedi thanks to the Sith Holocron...then Ulic runs off, gets their armies crushed, Kun has to drop everything to go save him, engineers Ossus's destruction, which is one of two military endeavors he played a role in during this war....and maybe, just maybe, the strength of Kun's spirit was TIED to Yavin and the Dark Side energy there? Corran Horn weakened him there by destroying a statue of him for one

3. Well, y'know, I suppose that if the Ancient Sith could do what they did without massive technology and force sensitive crystals by the dozens, then they would have....and once again, what Sith go to war to avenge a talking head?

4. And look at the picture, look to the upper right hand corner and see that big sword flying from a Massassi's hand.

5. Unless Sidious was personally killing and assaulting ewoks, than....And Odan Urr I don't begrudge, that was quite nice from Kun. Sadow on the other hand had his forces completely deadlocked.

6. I'm curious, which part of 'Go to Mustafar and kill the Seperatist leaders' required 'lose complete control of yourself over your wife and engage your former master in a duel, losing every bit of self control you have and toss yourself headfirst into a trap?' Palpatine wasn't altogether happy with how that transpired.

7. Would the horror have anything to do witht he compression of force lightning with an undeterminable result? For all they knew, Yoda was ready to blow both of them to hell.

8. You mean Sidious utilizing a basic ability such as a force push when his enemy was standing outside on a dangerous precipice would be completely unfounded?

9. Well, y'know, kids born from the force generally have the potential. Talks about this in the NEC. Plageuis discovers Anakin, Palp murders Plageuis and decides he may one day have use of Ani. and Dooku was taken as apprentice....a very short time after TPM. With Dooku's well known activism, I doubt Palpatine would have missed it.

10. Maul, if he'd killed Qui-Gon would either not have bothered with Anakin, killed him on the spot, or brought him back to Palpatine...I doubt any of the three options would impede Palp's plan altogether much.

11. Yes, he did and I will never deny Palpatine, Exar, Bane, Revan or any of their ilk screwed up...however, they had the slight advantage of having an apprentice they knew for years, rather than a kid they just threw at the forefront of the lines as a leader.

12. I really don't think it's beyond an Ancient Sith's capabilities to consult with some of the spirits on Korriban and get a view of what you're facing like Palp did in Empire's End.

1. Oh, y'know...fighting, defending, around other worlds, that kinda thing. I suggest reading LOE

So you're saying there were only 10 or so Jedi left on the entirety of Coruscant while one of the greatest space battles unfurl? And wait, those PT era Jedi can be all over, but the Sith War jedi can't possibly be anywhere else. I love how you jump from strict constructionist to loose constructionist whenever convenient. I suggest you turn on your brain.

2. According to the timeline.....the war with the Krath started at....3,997, Kun got involved around that time, vanished completely to start a shadow cult, recruited twenty Jedi thanks to the Sith Holocron...then Ulic runs off, gets their armies crushed, Kun has to drop everything to go save him, engineers Ossus's destruction, which is one of two military endeavors he played a role in during this war....and maybe, just maybe, the strength of Kun's spirit was TIED to Yavin and the Dark Side energy there? Corran Horn weakened him there by destroying a statue of him for one

So you're saying because the war started in 3997 BBY means that Kun couldn't possibly have been involved? So he recruits far more followers than Sidious means he's somehow inferior?

Oh you dodged the question. First it was "they never did force choke without their technology" then it was "he never did it without the energy."

That's not the point I'm making, read what I typed. I'm saying he didn't come up with the technique out of the blue, he knew it beforehand and ergo you're not giving the ancient sith enough credit. Anakin, for all of his force potential, sure wasn't pushing Watto around as a 9 year old. Why? Because he couldn't.

3. Well, y'know, I suppose that if the Ancient Sith could do what they did without massive technology and force sensitive crystals by the dozens, then they would have....and once again, what Sith go to war to avenge a talking head?

Wait. If I catch a football with gloves, it means I couldn't have done it without? If I punch someone in the mouth with brass knuckles, it means I couldn't have managed to punch him without them? Did you think that maybe they wanted to maximize their effectiveness? Don't you think Sidious maybe wanted to the same thing when he used the amulet?

And how does the absense of them doing stuff naked prove they can't. I never see Ragnos take a sh!t in the comics, does that mean he has no anus and can't crap? You're full of it. If you want to argue they can't use the force without their technology, you have to prove it (note definition given).

And oh wait, how does them using technology ON THEIR PERSON have anything to do with it? Is Sadow showing up to battle naked?

Why not make a "Superman with no arms vs. Batman with Wolverine's Claws vs. Yoda with a pitchfork" thread while you're at it? Debate stuff that's relevent. If you can't prove it or give logical reason to believe it, it's irrelevent. I could very well say Ragnos could turn Korriban into cheese, but I can't prove it, so I'm leaving it out of the thread.

4. And look at the picture, look to the upper right hand corner and see that big sword flying from a Massassi's hand.

Oh, you mean that curved scimitar thing on a stick that looks nothing like the weapons Ludo and Naga were using and suspiciously similar to the ones the rest of the Massassi had?

And even if it was a sith sword, it doesn't help your credibility when you said sith swords were resistant to lightsabers.

You are screwed both ways.

5. Unless Sidious was personally killing and assaulting ewoks, than....And Odan Urr I don't begrudge, that was quite nice from Kun. Sadow on the other hand had his forces completely deadlocked.

So wait, Sidious doesn't need to do "research" about Endor while he parks his ass in his death star overlooking the planet, but Sadow does need to do "research" while he parks his ass on his destroyer... overlooking the planet.

A little bit of hypocrisy there.

7. Would the horror have anything to do witht he compression of force lightning with an undeterminable result? For all they knew, Yoda was ready to blow both of them to hell.

Glad to see you ignored the point about Yoda turning the tables on them. It's even in the official script, I suggest you take a gander at it.

Glad you are so skilled at dodging points.

8. You mean Sidious utilizing a basic ability such as a force push when his enemy was standing outside on a dangerous precipice would be completely unfounded?

If his force lightning didn't blow Mace Windu out the window, why would a force push have worked? Why didn't he throw him out the window a long time ago? Maybe because Mace could have countered it, maybe because Mace put him on his ass. Maybe because Mace was the better fighter.

And also, according to your logic, "we never see Sidious push anyone out of windows, therefore he can't."

Hypocrite.

9. Well, y'know, kids born from the force generally have the potential. Talks about this in the NEC. Plageuis discovers Anakin, Palp murders Plageuis and decides he may one day have use of Ani. and Dooku was taken as apprentice....a very short time after TPM. With Dooku's well known activism, I doubt Palpatine would have missed it.

Yes, see my point about Anakin not throwing Watto around at 9 years old. He still needs to be trained as was reiterated and made painfully clear in the movies.

That still doesn't disguise the fact that Dooku didn't leave until TPM was in motion at the earliest.

10. Maul, if he'd killed Qui-Gon would either not have bothered with Anakin, killed him on the spot, or brought him back to Palpatine...I doubt any of the three options would impede Palp's plan altogether much.

LMFAO at changing topics now. Concede the point, and stop being a coward.

You said he had them lined up. I proved you wrong, and you run off that "it wouldn't have impeded his plan much."

Where's the evidence. I don't seem to recall anywhere where it was mentioned that he wouldn't be impeded if he didn't have an apprentice.

Stick with your OWN logic. Stop applying double standards.

11. Yes, he did and I will never deny Palpatine, Exar, Bane, Revan or any of their ilk screwed up...however, they had the slight advantage of having an apprentice they knew for years, rather than a kid they just threw at the forefront of the lines as a leader.

He threw Vader as his second in command and sent him to Mustafar ALONE. The potential for a screwup is huge, and it nearly cost him an apprentice. At least Naga Sadow could keep tabs on Gav.

12. I really don't think it's beyond an Ancient Sith's capabilities to consult with some of the spirits on Korriban and get a view of what you're facing like Palp did in Empire's End.

Spirits on Korriban that themselves have never seen the Republic?

Hey look... Ragnos really DOESN'T have an anus, Illustrious!

Btw, pwnt.

Originally posted by Illustrious
So you're saying there were only 10 or so Jedi left on the entirety of Coruscant while one of the greatest space battles unfurl? And wait, those PT era Jedi can be all over, but the Sith War jedi can't [b]possibly be anywhere else. I love how you jump from strict constructionist to loose constructionist whenever convenient. I suggest you turn on your brain.

So you're saying because the war started in 3997 BBY means that Kun couldn't possibly have been involved? So he recruits far more followers than Sidious means he's somehow inferior?

Oh you dodged the question. First it was "they never did force choke without their technology" then it was "he never did it without the energy."

That's not the point I'm making, read what I typed. I'm saying he didn't come up with the technique out of the blue, he knew it beforehand and ergo you're not giving the ancient sith enough credit. Anakin, for all of his force potential, sure wasn't pushing Watto around as a 9 year old. Why? Because he couldn't.

Wait. If I catch a football with gloves, it means I couldn't have done it without? If I punch someone in the mouth with brass knuckles, it means I couldn't have managed to punch him without them? Did you think that maybe they wanted to maximize their effectiveness? Don't you think Sidious maybe wanted to the same thing when he used the amulet?

And how does the absense of them doing stuff naked prove they can't. I never see Ragnos take a sh!t in the comics, does that mean he has no anus and can't crap? You're full of it. If you want to argue they can't use the force without their technology, you have to prove it (note definition given).

And oh wait, how does them using technology ON THEIR PERSON have anything to do with it? Is Sadow showing up to battle naked?

Why not make a "Superman with no arms vs. Batman with Wolverine's Claws vs. Yoda with a pitchfork" thread while you're at it? Debate stuff that's relevent. If you can't prove it or give logical reason to believe it, it's irrelevent. I could very well say Ragnos could turn Korriban into cheese, but I can't prove it, so I'm leaving it out of the thread.

Oh, you mean that curved scimitar thing on a stick that looks nothing like the weapons Ludo and Naga were using and suspiciously similar to the ones the rest of the Massassi had?

And even if it was a sith sword, it doesn't help your credibility when you said sith swords were resistant to lightsabers.

You are screwed both ways.

So wait, Sidious doesn't need to do "research" about Endor while he parks his ass in his death star overlooking the planet, but Sadow does need to do "research" while he parks his ass on his destroyer... overlooking the planet.

A little bit of hypocrisy there.

Glad to see you ignored the point about Yoda turning the tables on them. It's even in the official script, I suggest you take a gander at it.

Glad you are so skilled at dodging points.

If his force lightning didn't blow Mace Windu out the window, why would a force push have worked? Why didn't he throw him out the window a long time ago? Maybe because Mace could have countered it, maybe because Mace put him on his ass. Maybe because Mace was the better fighter.

And also, according to your logic, "we never see Sidious push anyone out of windows, therefore he can't."

Hypocrite.

Yes, see my point about Anakin not throwing Watto around at 9 years old. He still needs to be trained as was reiterated and made painfully clear in the movies.

That still doesn't disguise the fact that Dooku didn't leave until TPM was in motion at the earliest.

LMFAO at changing topics now. Concede the point, and stop being a coward.

You said he had them lined up. I proved you wrong, and you run off that "it wouldn't have impeded his plan much."

Where's the evidence. I don't seem to recall anywhere where it was mentioned that he wouldn't be impeded if he didn't have an apprentice.

Stick with your OWN logic. Stop applying double standards.

He threw Vader as his second in command and sent him to Mustafar ALONE. The potential for a screwup is huge, and it nearly cost him an apprentice. At least Naga Sadow could keep tabs on Gav.

Spirits on Korriban that themselves have never seen the Republic? [/B]

1. If we're talking about Fall of the Sith Empire? We see the Jedi ARRIVAL on the planet. In Sith War? We see the entire council of 'em

2. Sidious had far more followers than twenty brainwashed by a Sith holocron, for one....two, for the better part of that area, Kun was on Yavin. And stop mixing up the topics: Kun on Yavin is the spirit Kun that was stuck there for 4,000 years

3. We see Sadow clearly do nothing as the ship itself fires upon the star, blowing it up. We see ALEMA KETO use the ship to blow it up, we see the words 'The Ancient Weapons on sadow's sith ship, etc etc etc."
Until they show incredible power WITHOUT carrying crystals on their person constantly...Yes, yes, it may make him smart, but it doesn't make him powerful. I wouldn't expect him to show up to a battle naked, but if we're comparing HIS power to someone else? Fall in and strip down.

4. No, you're right, that's a spearhead, my mistake.

5. Well, considering his forc elightning wasn't as strong as the lightning he used on Luke or to actually KILL Mace...And yes, as always, impossible assume Sidious held back, was overpowered to trick Anakin to the dark Side...nope, the man who could manipulate a galaxy and blind an enetire Jedi Order could NEVER be so cunning...

6. We see Sidious push someone out the window: Mace.

7. I really doubt Sidious DIDN'T do research on Endor...however that and "Put my men in secluded barracks away from Ewoks who could conceivably befriend a plucky rebel princess where a rebel could lure my men outside so they could be demolished in guerilla warfare as the ewoks fight for a golden droid they believe a God." The variables are incredibly sketchy. And the ewoks weren't exactly doing a damn thing to the Death Star was it was. An oversight? Oh yeah. A massive, gaping hole? Nope.

8. Where did Yoda turn the tables on him before the final battle? Hell, in the script Grievous killed Shaak Ti. In the scripts, Greedo wrestled Anakin

9. Anakin needed to be trained, yeah...however, he was a nine year old kid and what golden rule states Sidious wouldn't have trained him?And once again: Dooku's distaste of the republic was very well known. As was his position on the Jedi. Not hard to see 'potential' written all over ol' Chris Lee there.

10. Well, it has to do mainly with the Sith Rule of two....if your entire Order rests upon two people, you better have an apprentice ready...granted, Sidious was unorthodox there completely. And once again....Sidious sent Anakin to kill the Seperatist leaders. He entrusted Obi-wan's death to an ARC clone and his men. Kenobi even surviving was a ghost in the machine and Anakin going out of control was something uncounted for. Sidious's death in ROTJ was his fault...Anakin's burning and the Ewok victory thanks to Leia and Threepio was not.

Moreover: considering it was supposed to be a routine mission of 'kill the cowardly trademsan and dismantle some droids'...and yeah, those spirits on Korriban knew their stuff....they predicted Anakin Solo completely.

1. If we're talking about Fall of the Sith Empire? We see the Jedi ARRIVAL on the planet. In Sith War? We see the entire council of 'em

So is Vrook and Vander on the council in Sith War? Did you see anyone here make that assertion? Anyone?

-cricket chirp-

I'm waiting.

Guess not. Reading comprehension is your friend. We deduce that they were alive and trained Jedi at the time of the Sith War based on their timelines. It's not about arguing the semantics of their existence.

2. Sidious had far more followers than twenty brainwashed by a Sith holocron, for one....two, for the better part of that area, Kun was on Yavin. And stop mixing up the topics: Kun on Yavin is the spirit Kun that was stuck there for 4,000 years

Maybe because he politically infiltrated the Republic and used propaganda? I'm not saying it wasn't a good political maneuver, but it doesn't speak of his power. Like I said, is Hitler a superior individual than George Washington? Can he beat him in a fight?

I'm not mixing up the topics. Unless you're proposing that Kun suddenly learned how to use force choke while he was a spirit, you're unfounded. You said (paraphrased) "the ancient Sith never used force choke without their technology." I countered it doesn't show anything, as it doesn't show they can't. You've never countered that statement, you've merely tried to spin it in circles.

3. We see Sadow clearly do nothing as the ship itself fires upon the star, blowing it up. We see ALEMA KETO use the ship to blow it up, we see the words 'The Ancient Weapons on sadow's sith ship, etc etc etc."
Until they show incredible power WITHOUT carrying crystals on their person constantly...Yes, yes, it may make him smart, but it doesn't make him powerful. I wouldn't expect him to show up to a battle naked, but if we're comparing HIS power to someone else? Fall in and strip down.

He built the ship, he clearly has the knowledge that exceeds the level shown of people past the Golden Age.

And since when is this a "fall in and strip down" thing? Lightsabers are a weapon. Are you proposing they fight fisticuff? Besides, you can't prove what level they are at without their equipment. DE Sidious used equipment, I'm not arguing how powerful he would be if he was naked.

So you've officially:

1) Applied hypocritical, double-standard logic.
2) Arbitrarily omitted, tampered with evidence.
3) Avoided the topic on multiple occassions.
4) Changed the parameters of the original discussion on whim.

Good job man.

5. Well, considering his forc elightning wasn't as strong as the lightning he used on Luke or to actually KILL Mace...And yes, as always, impossible assume Sidious held back, was overpowered to trick Anakin to the dark Side...nope, the man who could manipulate a galaxy and blind an enetire Jedi Order could NEVER be so cunning...

There you go again with the grandiose terms, you're bias really shows through. He sure didn't manipulate the Rebels. He sure didn't manipulate much besides his own bowels when he was benchpressed into the reactor core.

Fact of the matter is, you have no proof he could have done what you said. In fact, the evidence we have suggests Mace kicked his ass fair and square.

6. We see Sidious push someone out the window: Mace.

We see him lightning him out the window. You said he would push someone out the window while he was fighting him.

And I'm sure Anakin hacking off his arm had NOTHING to do with that.

7. I really doubt Sidious DIDN'T do research on Endor...however that and "Put my men in secluded barracks away from Ewoks who could conceivably befriend a plucky rebel princess where a rebel could lure my men outside so they could be demolished in guerilla warfare as the ewoks fight for a golden droid they believe a God." The variables are incredibly sketchy. And the ewoks weren't exactly doing a damn thing to the Death Star was it was. An oversight? Oh yeah. A massive, gaping hole? Nope.

So is the "let's have some guy get in a chamber and sacrifice himself with a material that happens to own pretty much any living creature it comes into airborne contact with, and then let's get my ship blown right when I'm at the crossroads of victory."

Rhetorical nonsense. Prove that he did research on Endor, and prove that the research was superior to any (or the lack thereof) of Naga Sadow. The end result was the Sidious wound up in the bottom of a reactor core, and Sadow limped home. Personally, I'd rather be Sadow actually.

8. Where did Yoda turn the tables on him before the final battle? Hell, in the script Grievous killed Shaak Ti. In the scripts, Greedo wrestled Anakin

The final script.

And it's quite apparent that you're not watching your ROTS DVD. Yoda jumps on the pod, gets his saber knocked out by the lightning, puts his hands up, and initially is leaning back. His eyes narrow and he pushes himself to a vertical base. That's overpowering.

If I'm armwrestling someone and my arm is nearly pinned but then I fight back to even, I exhibited more strength than my opponent, clear as that.

9. Anakin needed to be trained, yeah...however, he was a nine year old kid and what golden rule states Sidious wouldn't have trained him?And once again: Dooku's distaste of the republic was very well known. As was his position on the Jedi. Not hard to see 'potential' written all over ol' Chris Lee there.

Again, avoiding the point. You said Sidious had him lined up. He did not at that point.

You said it wouldn't have impeded him, you had no proof.

Now you say that Sidious "might have trained him." Great job, and if that was the case, maybe he wouldn't get thrown down a reactor core by a parapalegic.

10. Well, it has to do mainly with the Sith Rule of two....if your entire Order rests upon two people, you better have an apprentice ready...granted, Sidious was unorthodox there completely. And once again....Sidious sent Anakin to kill the Seperatist leaders. He entrusted Obi-wan's death to an ARC clone and his men. Kenobi even surviving was a ghost in the machine and Anakin going out of control was something uncounted for. Sidious's death in ROTJ was his fault...Anakin's burning and the Ewok victory thanks to Leia and Threepio was not

So Ooroo's sacrifice wasn't his fault. Your point? Doling out blame now is a second grade playground affair. You're just deviating from the topic in trying to score Sidious a win.

Fine, fine, I'll concede. Sidious would kick Sadow's ass in a farting contest.