Darth Revan Vs Mace and Mundi

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. As opposed to even Odan-Urr thinking the Sith had been exterminated 1000 years back?

As opposed to even Yoda thinking the Sith had been exterminated 1000 years back in TPM ? If you have a group which contains dozens or even thousands of people and you have an entire Galaxy filled with places to hide - a great part of them being not recognized by the Republic - you can't tell if a group of people was "exterminated" or not...

3. The third great Schism amongst the Jedi goes in direct contradiction of other sources, as well as being 300 years before....and droids are not dark siders. And The Jedi had only just come to Onderon since Nadd...the Naddists died out after Kun

Oh. Again using double standarts ? If the Essential Chronology supports your opinion it has the final word which can't be argued - if it doesn't it's a questionable source ?

4. A lightsaber doesn't amplify force powers. If you're comparing power, than don't give them kaiburr crystals, sith amulets, force crystals etc.

It doesn't matter. The point is that some people were able to create stuff to amplify their force powers were other people weren't. The ability to do that is a part of a persons power. Having a lightsaber you're more powerful than without a lightsaber - do you want to argue that ?

5. The entire little detail about WOTC and Xendor's schism...reducing the SE to a 2000 year empire.

Since you labeled the Essential Chronology an errorous source yourself and Lucasfilms own website (starwars.com) contradicts the idea that "SE = 2000 year empire" we'll simply go on and work with the 20,000 year figure.

In a mano a mano, martial feats are greater than tactical feats...not only that, Jango never got the Mandalorians nearly exterminated and forced to become bootlickers for crime lords

And again you're using double standarts. In the Vong vs Ancient Sith Empire thread you told me that the Vong would curbstomp the Ancient Sith in a battle because having better "tactics" despite the fact that the Sith are more powerful personally. Now you reverse that statement and say martial feats are greater than tactical feats.

It also would be nice if you would stop using all possible occasions a person was defeated to discredit the person. You're basically saying that the Mandalorians were defeated because of Mandalore's faults and not because having an army of force users and a tactical genious against them therefore you're discrediting not only Mandalore but Revan too.
The same way I could say that Sidious was nothing else than an arrogant fool who did not only manage to lose an entire Empire against people that were far inferior but was also responsible for the extinct of the Sith Order. Do you see how senseless that is ?

Glen:
1. There were other problems in Yoda's era too, from Nightsisters, to the Stark Hyperspace, to numerous pirates, some dark jedi overlords....

2. That the Jedi arrived AFTER the full scales wars started.

3. The CIS only had Dark Siders leading, manipulating and COMMANDING. I withdrw what I said on the thirsd schism, but still...three hundred years. And not Sith.

4. So, without their amulets, they're just not that powerful? And using amulets and artifacts is the only way they can even be considered remotely powerful?
5. Xendor's schism was never given a complete conclusion or year. WOTC did that.

6. ....what? Nadd didn't have a headdress, he had a helmet and you are grasping at straws completely. 'Hired someone to build him an elaborate tomb n a long forgotten Dark Side world when Ragnos was the last Sith to be entombed there?' That's from KJA's story 'Bane of the Sith' btw. And Nadd most likely took his armor from a dead Sith, or Naga's corpse. Not a big deal there. As once said: Occam's razor

7. Did the Ultimate ever wipe out entire factions, kingdoms, crime organizations and a dark jedi like Vosa all on his own? You're discussing overall impact, I'm talking about martial feats. And yeah, Jango couldn't have done it, because unlike that scum of a Mandalore, Jango was actually an honorable man.
8. Umm, no...Baron Montross betrayed the Mandalorians and the Death Watch lied to the Republic and said the Mandalorians were murdering women and children. And weren't very powerful? Boba's Mandalorians neo Protectors are now one of the strongest factions in the galaxy. Canderous said Mandalorian champions killed Jedi. Considering Jango killed a great many with his bare hands-bare hands and still had enough left to wipe out the Death Watch...And Mandalorians pwned Jedi all the time? Which is why the Jedi were slaughtering them in the Sith War?

Originally posted by Borbarad
As opposed to even Yoda thinking the Sith had been exterminated 1000 years back in TPM ? If you have a group which contains dozens or even thousands of people and you have an entire Galaxy filled with places to hide - a great part of them being not recognized by the Republic - you can't tell if a group of people was "exterminated" or not...

Oh. Again using double standarts ? If the Essential Chronology supports your opinion it has the final word which can't be argued - if it doesn't it's a questionable source ?

It doesn't matter. The point is that some people were able to create stuff to amplify their force powers were other people weren't. The ability to do that is a part of a persons power. Having a lightsaber you're more powerful than without a lightsaber - do you want to argue that ?

Since you labeled the Essential Chronology an errorous source yourself and Lucasfilms own website (starwars.com) contradicts the idea that "SE = 2000 year empire" we'll simply go on and work with the 20,000 year figure.

And again you're using double standarts. In the Vong vs Ancient Sith Empire thread you told me that the Vong would curbstomp the Ancient Sith in a battle because having better "tactics" despite the fact that the Sith are more powerful personally. Now you reverse that statement and say martial feats are greater than tactical feats.

It also would be nice if you would stop using all possible occasions a person was defeated to discredit the person. You're basically saying that the Mandalorians were defeated because of Mandalore's faults and not because having an army of force users and a tactical genious against them therefore you're discrediting not only Mandalore but Revan too.
The same way I could say that Sidious was nothing else than an arrogant fool who did not only manage to lose an entire Empire against people that were far inferior but was also responsible for the extinct of the Sith Order. Do you see how senseless that is ?

1. Why are the Jedi badmouthed in the PT era when the old Jedi made the same exact mistakes? This I really want to know...

2. I accept there was a third schism. I don't like it, but I accept it. However, it didn't involve Sith and was three hundred years before the next war.

3. A lightsaber is a weapon. I can use a sword in a fencing match, but I can't use steroids, get the picture? And they used force sensitive crystals for all their technology there. Kinda like the ones on Dantooine.

4. No, we won't. The Chronology overrides you completely. It's official and flies against nothing. Leland Chee said it himself that it's official and retcons are occuring. I've linked to his QaA page numerous times, shall I do it once more?

5. There's a firm difference as I'm comparing the feats of two men, not saying who would defeat the other. I'm not arguing their capabilities in a fleet battle-and nevermind that idiotic statement one Sith could beat Billions of Vong- I'm arguing the greatness of one to the other. Sidious, unlike the Sith empire, actually destroyed the Jedi order and took over the Republic. The Sith Empire screwed up in every possible regard-who makes GAV DARAGON their second in command? And unlike the Sith empire, Palpatine had destiny itself working against him. The Sith Empire threw most of their strength against a number three worlds where they were devastated.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Glen:
1. There were other problems in Yoda's era too, from Nightsisters, to the Stark Hyperspace, to numerous pirates, some dark jedi overlords....

You completly miss the point.

Ki-Adi Mundi(Episode 2), "There hasn't been a full scale war since the formation of the Republic." The Republic was recreated 1000 years prior to the movies after the New Sith War.

There was at least 1 full scale war between the Great Hyperspace War and the Great Sith War, and another Jedi Civil War and a droid revolution. That's way more then any any problems the PT Jedi faced or trained to perpare for. The Stark Hyperspace War was about a week long and was settled by 5 or 6 Jedi, one of which was a padawan.

Name any of the Dark Jedi.

The Nightsisters weren't a threat to the Order as a whole. The Ganks, the Third Great Jedi Schism, and the Great Droid Revolution were.

There were many pirates between the Great Hyperspace War and Great Sith War too. Nomi's husband was killed by them(she then picked up his lightsaber and pwned them).

The PT Jedi were trained to be diplomats. 90% of the Order used the diplomats form. The Ancient Jedi were trained to fight.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
2. That the Jedi arrived AFTER the full scales wars started.

You haven't provided any sources. I have. The defenders of the Republic don't just sit around and then defeat their enemies in the very end.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
3. The CIS only had Dark Siders leading, manipulating and COMMANDING. I withdrw what I said on the thirsd schism, but still...three hundred years. And not Sith.

Sith aren't the only bad guys with power. Ajunta Pall and Freedon Nadd weren't Sith, but they could pwn people like Yoda, Mace, or Revan.

If a schism is referred to as a Great schism, there have to be thousands of Jedi on each side of the conflict. Name all the darksiders in the entire CIS. Sidious, Dooku, Sora, Ventress, Bulq, Vos, Sev'rance Tann, the three Mace killed on Geonosis, and that's it. 10 guys, one of which did nothing and three of which died on the very first day of the war. Look who the supreme commander of the CiS was. Yes, it was General Grevious, not a force user.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
4. So, without their amulets, they're just not that powerful? And using amulets and artifacts is the only way they can even be considered remotely powerful?

Did I say that? No. I said we don't know how powerful they would be. If you don't like it, thats to bad. It's just the way it is. You don't see anyone else crying about Sidious artificially renewing his body through cloning.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
5. Xendor's schism was never given a complete conclusion or year. WOTC did that.

Yes, it was infact.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
6. ....what? Nadd didn't have a headdress, he had a helmet and you are grasping at straws completely. 'Hired someone to build him an elaborate tomb n a long forgotten Dark Side world when Ragnos was the last Sith to be entombed there?' That's from KJA's story 'Bane of the Sith' btw. And Nadd most likely took his armor from a dead Sith, or Naga's corpse. Not a big deal there. As once said: Occam's razor

We know that there were no Sith outside of the KOTOR ones to be around before Darth Bane.

If Nadd took his armor off Naga's corpse, and, like you said, they have different armor, then Andeddu is not an Ancient Sith.

We also know that KJA was wrong when he said Ragnos was the last person entombed there beause in KOTOR we can see where Naga and Ludo ended up. We can look at the planet and see that Andeddu's tomb was not in the Valley of the Dark Lords and therefor less important or powerful then Tulak Hord, who Revan got his holocron from.

We know that you have not proved that he was an Ancient Sith. We know that you have consistently used double standards whenever it has helped your case. We know that you have made tons of crap up before and we know that you have used hyperbole on mutiple occasions.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
7. Did the Ultimate ever wipe out entire factions, kingdoms, crime organizations and a dark jedi like Vosa all on his own? You're discussing overall impact, I'm talking about martial feats. And yeah, Jango couldn't have done it, because unlike that scum of a Mandalore, Jango was actually an honorable man.

Jango was scum. He was a bounty hunter. That's one of the least honorable wars there are. Why wasn't Jango out training new Mandalorians or leading wars for the glory of the Empire? Why did the Mandalorians DIE under Jango's rule, but they went from only two or three planets to over a hundred thousand under This other Mandalores rule.

Jango honorable? Not entirely. He had his son providing heavy weapon support when fighting Obi-wan. That's completly unfair and dishonorable. If I was in a fist fight with you, and then I had my friend shoot you with a shotgun while we were fighting, that would be one of the most dishonorable things possible. That's what Jango had done.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
8. Umm, no...Baron Montross betrayed the Mandalorians and the Death Watch lied to the Republic and said the Mandalorians were murdering women and children. And weren't very powerful? Boba's Mandalorians neo Protectors are now one of the strongest factions in the galaxy. Canderous said Mandalorian champions killed Jedi. Considering Jango killed a great many with his bare hands-bare hands and still had enough left to wipe out the Death Watch...And Mandalorians pwned Jedi all the time? Which is why the Jedi were slaughtering them in the Sith War?

By Jango's time, the Mandalorians had less then 20 planets. In Boba's time, they were rebuilding, but they only had 3 planets. Under the Mandalore that Revan killed, they were stated as bigger then the Hutt Empire, which contains about 100,000 planets. Thats 5,000 times bigger and more powerful.

We know that the Mandalorians in KOTOR times were able to wage a several year long war against both the Republic and the Jedi Order.

1. No force users or Sith. And 'full scale war' means it doesn't involve the Republic. There was still a massive war of Khooda, the Yinchorri war...I want some damn proof the Ganks were ANY threat, or the droids...you want some proof of their enemies? Matriarch Zalem who almost activated Infinity's End...Volffe Karkko, the Anzati who was a massive threat to the Order, the Mandalorian crusaders in that era...Nomi also didn't 'own' those pirates. She killed two and the other escped...and they weren't pirates, they were hutt thugs. Proof the Ancient Jedi trained to fight. They hadn't seen conflict in centuries. And constant battering of their order every other week and near extinction was BOUND to weaken them. In fact, there's no reason why they weren't stronger at Ruusan...they'd only been fighting a war against the Sith for a millenium STRAIGHT

2. I seriously doubt Freedon would come close to Mace, Yoda or Revan....I seriously, honestly doubt this stupid, arrogant fool could dent them. He was no Sith and never as near as strong as them.

3. There was a REASOn Grievous was the supreme commander: He'd cause massive atrocity, weaken the Jedi and serve as a scapegoat. You also missed the Dark Jedi: Vandalor, Saato, Vinoc and his brother, Kadrian Sey, Tol Skorr, the Anzati Corran Horn's grandfather killed...

4. No, you don't see anyone crying about Sidious taking new bodies. Why? Because I'd insist he'd face his opponent without a cheap toy to enhance his power, as apparently the Ancient Sith couldn't and didn't do much without their toys.

5. No, in the Han Solo trilogy, Xendor's rebellion is never given a date or time. WOTC filled in the blanks and dan Wallace did the rest.

6. How do we know this exactly? Do you know every single Sith Lord in the Old Empire? And I'm so certain the Ancient Sith had only ONE style of armor! Instantly disproved as Ragnos's armor looks nothing like KRessh's and Shar Dakhan's looks nothing like Horak Muul's. And Sadow died on yavin 4, which went undiscovered since Exar Kun. And Ludo Kressh was BLOWN UP IN SPACE. And in that Valley of the Dark Lords....there are how many tombs? SIX?! For 2000 years, you're telling me there were SIX Sith Lords when Ragnos ruling for a century was rare? And the Valley of the Dark Lords is shown to be much bigger than the single site in KOTOR in Clone wars Volume 4: Shadows and Light. You haven't misproved a single thing. In fact, your argument is "Well...maybe he was buried here somehwere else, on a secret planet, where he had a holocron, Sith style armor and headress and a tomb on Korriban!"
KJA wrong? He CREATED Korriban and the Ancient Sith. And repeat: Kressh was vaporized in space. How would he have a tomb exactly?

7. How is being a bounty hunter scum? Unlike the honorable Mandalore the Ultimate, Jango never murdered women and children or comitted mass genocide. I'd take a small town cook over Stalin any day. By Jango's time, the Mandalorians had stopped 'leading wars for the glory of the Empire.' Times had changed and thanks to the Death Watch splintering because the Death Watch wanted to keep raiding and conquering. And for the record, the Death Watch shot a little girl dead-Jango's sister- to make sure she wouldn't talk. Why were the Mandos wiped out? Because Montross betrayed them and told the Jedi the Mandos were murdering women and children and he and the death watch created evidence. Jango led a war for Mandalorian honor: The war against the Death Watch and in true Mandalorian fashion, he avenged his people and slaughtered Montross and the death Watch.
Answer me, Glentract: Why's it honorable to turn innocent people into dust particles? How's it honorable to butcher and murder the innocent? I don't give a damn what's right in their culture, plenty people have thought theur bloodthirsty ways were right. The Spartans approved of raping little boys, the Roman culture approved of rape and wiping out civilizations....are the Mandalorians exempt because they wear cool armor?
Ghez Hokan said it himself: "Jango Fett made the Mandalorians great again." And Jango never told Boba to shoot at Obi-wan, Boba took the initiative himself. And wait, didn't train New recruits? Jango practically doubled the size of the Mandos after Jaster died.

Where are you getting these figures? 100,000 worlds? Hutt space is as big as Hapan Space which holds sixty worls. Unlike the Mandos of Canderous's time, Jango was adopted into the culture by Jaster Mereel after the Death Watch killed his family in front of him. he was raised on revenge and became one of the youngest commanders they'd ever known. By Boba's time, they're not interesting in 'fighting for the glory of the empire', they're interested in REAL honor, which doesn't involve genocide.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. No force users or Sith. And 'full scale war' means it doesn't involve the Republic. There was still a massive war of Khooda, the Yinchorri war...I want some damn proof the Ganks were ANY threat, or the droids...you want some proof of their enemies? Matriarch Zalem who almost activated Infinity's End...Volffe Karkko, the Anzati who was a massive threat to the Order, the Mandalorian crusaders in that era...Nomi also didn't 'own' those pirates. She killed two and the other escped...and they weren't pirates, they were hutt thugs. Proof the Ancient Jedi trained to fight. They hadn't seen conflict in centuries. And constant battering of their order every other week and near extinction was BOUND to weaken them. In fact, there's no reason why they weren't stronger at Ruusan...they'd only been fighting a war against the Sith for a millenium STRAIGHT

2. I seriously doubt Freedon would come close to Mace, Yoda or Revan....I seriously, honestly doubt this stupid, arrogant fool could dent them. He was no Sith and never as near as strong as them.

3. There was a REASOn Grievous was the supreme commander: He'd cause massive atrocity, weaken the Jedi and serve as a scapegoat. You also missed the Dark Jedi: Vandalor, Saato, Vinoc and his brother, Kadrian Sey, Tol Skorr, the Anzati Corran Horn's grandfather killed...

4. No, you don't see anyone crying about Sidious taking new bodies. Why? Because I'd insist he'd face his opponent without a cheap toy to enhance his power, as apparently the Ancient Sith couldn't and didn't do much without their toys.

5. No, in the Han Solo trilogy, Xendor's rebellion is never given a date or time. WOTC filled in the blanks and dan Wallace did the rest.

6. How do we know this exactly? Do you know every single Sith Lord in the Old Empire? And I'm so certain the Ancient Sith had only ONE style of armor! Instantly disproved as Ragnos's armor looks nothing like KRessh's and Shar Dakhan's looks nothing like Horak Muul's. And Sadow died on yavin 4, which went undiscovered since Exar Kun. And Ludo Kressh was BLOWN UP IN SPACE. And in that Valley of the Dark Lords....there are how many tombs? SIX?! For 2000 years, you're telling me there were SIX Sith Lords when Ragnos ruling for a century was rare? And the Valley of the Dark Lords is shown to be much bigger than the single site in KOTOR in Clone wars Volume 4: Shadows and Light. You haven't misproved a single thing. In fact, your argument is "Well...maybe he was buried here somehwere else, on a secret planet, where he had a holocron, Sith style armor and headress and a tomb on Korriban!"
KJA wrong? He CREATED Korriban and the Ancient Sith. And repeat: Kressh was vaporized in space. How would he have a tomb exactly?

7. How is being a bounty hunter scum? Unlike the honorable Mandalore the Ultimate, Jango never murdered women and children or comitted mass genocide. I'd take a small town cook over Stalin any day. By Jango's time, the Mandalorians had stopped 'leading wars for the glory of the Empire.' Times had changed and thanks to the Death Watch splintering because the Death Watch wanted to keep raiding and conquering. And for the record, the Death Watch shot a little girl dead-Jango's sister- to make sure she wouldn't talk. Why were the Mandos wiped out? Because Montross betrayed them and told the Jedi the Mandos were murdering women and children and he and the death watch created evidence. Jango led a war for Mandalorian honor: The war against the Death Watch and in true Mandalorian fashion, he avenged his people and slaughtered Montross and the death Watch.
Answer me, Glentract: Why's it honorable to turn innocent people into dust particles? How's it honorable to butcher and murder the innocent? I don't give a damn what's right in their culture, plenty people have thought theur bloodthirsty ways were right. The Spartans approved of raping little boys, the Roman culture approved of rape and wiping out civilizations....are the Mandalorians exempt because they wear cool armor?
Ghez Hokan said it himself: "Jango Fett made the Mandalorians great again." And Jango never told Boba to shoot at Obi-wan, Boba took the initiative himself. And wait, didn't train New recruits? Jango practically doubled the size of the Mandos after Jaster died.

Where are you getting these figures? 100,000 worlds? Hutt space is as big as Hapan Space which holds sixty worls. Unlike the Mandos of Canderous's time, Jango was adopted into the culture by Jaster Mereel after the Death Watch killed his family in front of him. he was raised on revenge and became one of the youngest commanders they'd ever known. By Boba's time, they're not interesting in 'fighting for the glory of the empire', they're interested in REAL honor, which doesn't involve genocide.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. No force users or Sith. And 'full scale war' means it doesn't involve the Republic. There was still a massive war of Khooda, the Yinchorri war...I want some damn proof the Ganks were ANY threat, or the droids...you want some proof of their enemies? Matriarch Zalem who almost activated Infinity's End...Volffe Karkko, the Anzati who was a massive threat to the Order, the Mandalorian crusaders in that era...Nomi also didn't 'own' those pirates. She killed two and the other escped...and they weren't pirates, they were hutt thugs. Proof the Ancient Jedi trained to fight. They hadn't seen conflict in centuries. And constant battering of their order every other week and near extinction was BOUND to weaken them. In fact, there's no reason why they weren't stronger at Ruusan...they'd only been fighting a war against the Sith for a millenium STRAIGHT

The Anzati, Volffe Karkko, and Zalem didn't require more then ten Jedi to defeat because they weren't major threats. The entire Order would gear up for war just because of them.

The Mandalorians sucked by those times. Durge had assassinated the Mandalore and the Mandalorians had gone into a civil war. Dooku destroyed them when Mace was a padawan.

It stated that Nomi handled her lightsaber like an master who had fought for years. That's ownage.

The Great Droid Revolution was when thousands of droids, many of the military droids and body guards were forced to attack living beings by an HK-01 Assassin Droid. There's not much more of a threat then that.

You're starting to annoy me with this crap. Proof that the Jedi in Revan's time weren't trained to fight? That they haven't fought in centuries? Have you read anything I have typed! The Great Droid Revolution which I have shown to have been a major threat was just 25 years before Revan was born. The Great Sith War was less then a decade before Revan was born. There was a Jedi Civil war within 300 years. Where the hell did you get the idea that they hadn't fought in centuries?

Wait, so first you say they haven't fought in centuries, then you say that they must be weak from being battered every week? Stop trying to double play points in your favor, it's not logical and only serves to piss people off. They weren't fighting every week, but they were training and preparing to fight every week, unlike PT Jedi, who were lax and trained to be diplomats.

WTF? What the hell makes you think that 'full scale war' means no Republic? What do you think the Clone Wars were? What do you think the Great Sith War and Great Hyperspace War were? Full scale wars! I don't know how you come up with this crap.

Proof that the Ganks were a threat? It was a labled a full scale war. That means that every planet in the Republic new about it and that the ENTIRE military was called into immediate action. That would not be had they not been a threat.

The Sith at Ruusan were very powerful. Bane could take Mace for sure. You fail to realize though that no one lived long enough to get much experince out of the New Sith War. Once you are training for war, you are training for war, it makes no difference on how long the war went on.

The Khoonda and Yichorri Wars were NOT massive. Less then 1% of the Order was involved in either one.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
2. I seriously doubt Freedon would come close to Mace, Yoda or Revan....I seriously, honestly doubt this stupid, arrogant fool could dent them. He was no Sith and never as near as strong as them.

Nadd was described as amazingly open to the force. Nadd killed a Jedi Master as a apprentice. Nadd completely succumbed to the teachings of the Sith and became proficient in the use of dark side Sith magic.

He fought off the beast riders for decades, something that Mace probably could not have done. Prove that Mace, Yoda, or Revan would stand even a chance against him.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
3. There was a REASOn Grievous was the supreme commander: He'd cause massive atrocity, weaken the Jedi and serve as a scapegoat. You also missed the Dark Jedi: Vandalor, Saato, Vinoc and his brother, Kadrian Sey, Tol Skorr, the Anzati Corran Horn's grandfather killed...

That's 17 people, three of which died the very first day(Mace killed the on Geonosis) and another one(Sidious) did nothing to help them. 17 is nothing next to the THOUSANDS that were around back then.

The real reason GG was the Supreme Commander was because what few Dark Jedi the CIS had were not very good next to the Jedi.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
4. No, you don't see anyone crying about Sidious taking new bodies. Why? Because I'd insist he'd face his opponent without a cheap toy to enhance his power, as apparently the Ancient Sith couldn't and didn't do much without their toys.

That doesn't matter. Like I have said, its a fight, anything goes.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
5. No, in the Han Solo trilogy, Xendor's rebellion is never given a date or time. WOTC filled in the blanks and dan Wallace did the rest.

Not in it's own, but in another Han Solo series we learn the age of the Republic and with that we can calculate the time-frame for Xendor's rebellion.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
6. How do we know this exactly? Do you know every single Sith Lord in the Old Empire? And I'm so certain the Ancient Sith had only ONE style of armor! Instantly disproved as Ragnos's armor looks nothing like KRessh's and Shar Dakhan's looks nothing like Horak Muul's. And Sadow died on yavin 4, which went undiscovered since Exar Kun. And Ludo Kressh was BLOWN UP IN SPACE. And in that Valley of the Dark Lords....there are how many tombs? SIX?! For 2000 years, you're telling me there were SIX Sith Lords when Ragnos ruling for a century was rare? And the Valley of the Dark Lords is shown to be much bigger than the single site in KOTOR in Clone wars Volume 4: Shadows and Light. You haven't misproved a single thing. In fact, your argument is "Well...maybe he was buried here somehwere else, on a secret planet, where he had a holocron, Sith style armor and headress and a tomb on Korriban!"
KJA wrong? He CREATED Korriban and the Ancient Sith. And repeat: Kressh was vaporized in space. How would he have a tomb exactly?

Are you so certain that non-Ancient Sith didn't were armor that doesn't look like Sith Armor?

Are you so certain that Ludo didn't have his tomb built before he died, but that his spirit didn't inhabit it?

Are you so certain that the much bigger part of the Valley of the Dark Lords wasn't added after for people like Darth Andeddu? Post-Bane people could still have over a dozen Dark Jedi students.

Sadow was undiscovered since Kun, but Revan is AFTER Kun.

YOU have failed to prove anything.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
7. How is being a bounty hunter scum? Unlike the honorable Mandalore the Ultimate, Jango never murdered women and children or comitted mass genocide. I'd take a small town cook over Stalin any day. By Jango's time, the Mandalorians had stopped 'leading wars for the glory of the Empire.' Times had changed and thanks to the Death Watch splintering because the Death Watch wanted to keep raiding and conquering.

Jango killed all sorts of people, not all of them innocent. The Death Watch was evil, not the Mandalorians of Revan's time.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And for the record, the Death Watch shot a little girl dead-Jango's sister- to make sure she wouldn't talk. Why were the Mandos wiped out? Because Montross betrayed them and told the Jedi the Mandos were murdering women and children and he and the death watch created evidence. Jango led a war for Mandalorian honor: The war against the Death Watch and in true Mandalorian fashion, he avenged his people and slaughtered Montross and the death Watch.

The Death Watch was nothing like the Mandalorians of Revan's time, so please do not bring them up again.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Answer me, Glentract: Why's it honorable to turn innocent people into dust particles? How's it honorable to butcher and murder the innocent? I don't give a damn what's right in their culture, plenty people have thought theur bloodthirsty ways were right. The Spartans approved of raping little boys, the Roman culture approved of rape and wiping out civilizations....are the Mandalorians exempt because they wear cool armor?

Sure, why not. Cool armor for all.

Of course I don't think that the Mandalorians from a long time ago were good for killing people, but they only killed them when it was required to protect themselves back in Revan's time. They wiped out cities only because the Republic kept their military bases in the middle of cities. It was the Republic's fault, not the Mandalorians. Hell, Canderous said he hated killing people.

Continued in next post...

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Ghez Hokan said it himself: "Jango Fett made the Mandalorians great again." And Jango never told Boba to shoot at Obi-wan, Boba took the initiative himself. And wait, didn't train New recruits? Jango practically doubled the size of the Mandos after Jaster died.

Key word, again. It doesn't say, "Jango Fett made the Mandalorians better then before." It doesn't say, "Jango Fett made the Mandalorians stronger then their ancestors." It says, Jango Fett made the Mandalorians great again." Not, "Jango Fett made the Mandalorians as great as they had ever been." But, "Jango Fett made the Mandalorians great again." That doesn't mean that the Old Ones were as great and it doesn't mean that it made the Mandalorians as great as they had ever been. It is probably referring to how they were just before Durge Assassinated the Mandalore from 100 years before TPM.

Jango half trained Boba. Canderous trained dozens on Mandalorians in just a few years.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Where are you getting these figures? 100,000 worlds? Hutt space is as big as Hapan Space which holds sixty worls. Unlike the Mandos of Canderous's time, Jango was adopted into the culture by Jaster Mereel after the Death Watch killed his family in front of him. he was raised on revenge and became one of the youngest commanders they'd ever known. By Boba's time, they're not interesting in 'fighting for the glory of the empire', they're interested in REAL honor, which doesn't involve genocide.

If you want to believe that the Hapan Empire is only 60 worlds, the volume-wise the ENTIRE Empire should consist of less then 500 planets. We know that the Empire had 6 million since it was stated that there are 12 million planets in the galaxy and that the Empire controlled half of them.

Canderous said that the Mandalorians were outnumbered 5 to 1. There were about a million planets in the Republic at that point according to Wedge and the New Essential Guides, so that's 200,000 Mandalorian worlds. Seriously, cut the crap.

They were intrested in civilian honor, not a warriors honor. We aren't bebating who is more honorable, btw, we're talking about who was more effective.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Why are the Jedi badmouthed in the PT era when the old Jedi made the same exact mistakes? This I really want to know...

Who said there were badmouthed ? The point was that nobody can say for sure that a group of people (in this case Sith) were extinct if there is a Galaxy for them to hide.

2. I accept there was a third schism. I don't like it, but I accept it. However, it didn't involve Sith and was three hundred years before the next war.

How could a schism in the Jedi Order not involve Dark Jedi / Sith ? That's like saying "There is a schism in the catholic church and no Christians are involved."

3. A lightsaber is a weapon. I can use a sword in a fencing match, but I can't use steroids, get the picture? And they used force sensitive crystals for all their technology there. Kinda like the ones on Dantooine.

I do get the picture. Do you get it too ? In a war everything is allowed. Using technology to boost up your force powers might be unfair - but that technology is part of the people's power. Take it away and you can make matches like "X vs Y both naked, without using weapons and force powers" because using a lightsaber against less powerful weapons is unfair and using the force against none force users is also unfair.

4. No, we won't. The Chronology overrides you completely. It's official and flies against nothing. Leland Chee said it himself that it's official and retcons are occuring. I've linked to his QaA page numerous times, shall I do it once more?

You still don't get it. The "Great Shism" was leading to the start of the Sith Empire. This is what the TOTJ comics tell, this is what starwars.com tells. And it happend in "the early days of the Jedi" - yet the early days of the Jedi are 25,000 years before ANH. Obi-Wan in ANH tells us that the Jedi order existed for "thousand generations" and 1 generation is 25 years. So...what do you want to argue ? I'd like to have quotes from the Chronology telling that:

a) None of Xendor's followers survived
b) The Dark Jedi from the 100 Year Darkness were the first to arrive at the Sith Empire.

And yes...I'd like to see the link to the Q&A page since the Endnotes for the New Essential Chronology (on SW.com) tell exactly the same that I try to tell you.

5. There's a firm difference as I'm comparing the feats of two men, not saying who would defeat the other. I'm not arguing their capabilities in a fleet battle-and nevermind that idiotic statement one Sith could beat Billions of Vong- I'm arguing the greatness of one to the other. Sidious, unlike the Sith empire, actually destroyed the Jedi order and took over the Republic. The Sith Empire screwed up in every possible regard-who makes GAV DARAGON their second in command? And unlike the Sith empire, Palpatine had destiny itself working against him. The Sith Empire threw most of their strength against a number three worlds where they were devastated.

Naga Sadow made Gav Daragon the "commander" of the fleet (which is not "second in command"😉 because he knew Republic space and you happen to miss the fact that they devasted dozens of worlds before getting stopped (the death and destruction they caused was the reason for Gav to betray Sadow). Since when is Naga Sadow = the entire ancient Sith Empire by the way ?
And uuuuuh...destiny itself was working against Sidious. Oh no. The bad uber powerful destiny. Sidious failed because of his own arrogance and not because of "destiny".

Originally posted by Borbarad
Naga Sadow made Gav Daragon the "commander" of the fleet (which is not "second in command"😉 because he knew Republic space and you happen to miss the fact that they devasted dozens of worlds before getting stopped (the death and destruction they caused was the reason for Gav to betray Sadow). Since when is Naga Sadow = the entire ancient Sith Empire by the way ?
And uuuuuh...destiny itself was working against Sidious. Oh no. The bad uber powerful destiny. Sidious failed because of his own arrogance and not because of "destiny".

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
The Anzati, Volffe Karkko, and Zalem didn't require more then ten Jedi to defeat because they weren't major threats. The entire Order would gear up for war just because of them.

The Mandalorians sucked by those times. Durge had assassinated the Mandalore and the Mandalorians had gone into a civil war. Dooku destroyed them when Mace was a padawan.

It stated that Nomi handled her lightsaber like an master who had fought for years. That's ownage.

The Great Droid Revolution was when thousands of droids, many of the military droids and body guards were forced to attack living beings by an HK-01 Assassin Droid. There's not much more of a threat then that.

You're starting to annoy me with this crap. Proof that the Jedi in Revan's time weren't trained to fight? That they haven't fought in centuries? Have you read anything I have typed! The Great Droid Revolution which I have shown to have been a major threat was just 25 years before Revan was born. The Great Sith War was less then a decade before Revan was born. There was a Jedi Civil war within 300 years. Where the hell did you get the idea that they hadn't fought in centuries?

Wait, so first you say they haven't fought in centuries, then you say that they must be weak from being battered every week? Stop trying to double play points in your favor, it's not logical and only serves to piss people off. They weren't fighting every week, but they were training and preparing to fight every week, unlike PT Jedi, who were lax and trained to be diplomats.

WTF? What the hell makes you think that 'full scale war' means no Republic? What do you think the Clone Wars were? What do you think the Great Sith War and Great Hyperspace War were? Full scale wars! I don't know how you come up with this crap.

Proof that the Ganks were a threat? It was a labled a full scale war. That means that every planet in the Republic new about it and that the ENTIRE military was called into immediate action. That would not be had they not been a threat.

The Sith at Ruusan were very powerful. Bane could take Mace for sure. You fail to realize though that no one lived long enough to get much experince out of the New Sith War. Once you are training for war, you are training for war, it makes no difference on how long the war went on.

The Khoonda and Yichorri Wars were NOT massive. Less then 1% of the Order was involved in either one.

Nadd was described as amazingly open to the force. Nadd killed a Jedi Master as a apprentice. Nadd completely succumbed to the teachings of the Sith and became proficient in the use of dark side Sith magic.

He fought off the beast riders for decades, something that Mace probably could not have done. Prove that Mace, Yoda, or Revan would stand even a chance against him.

That's 17 people, three of which died the very first day(Mace killed the on Geonosis) and another one(Sidious) did nothing to help them. 17 is nothing next to the THOUSANDS that were around back then.

The real reason GG was the Supreme Commander was because what few Dark Jedi the CIS had were not very good next to the Jedi.

That doesn't matter. Like I have said, its a fight, anything goes.

Not in it's own, but in another Han Solo series we learn the age of the Republic and with that we can calculate the time-frame for Xendor's rebellion.

Are you so certain that non-Ancient Sith didn't were armor that doesn't look like Sith Armor?

Are you so certain that Ludo didn't have his tomb built before he died, but that his spirit didn't inhabit it?

Are you so certain that the much bigger part of the Valley of the Dark Lords wasn't added after for people like Darth Andeddu? Post-Bane people could still have over a dozen Dark Jedi students.

Sadow was undiscovered since Kun, but Revan is AFTER Kun.

YOU have failed to prove anything.

Jango killed all sorts of people, not all of them innocent. The Death Watch was evil, not the Mandalorians of Revan's time.

The Death Watch was nothing like the Mandalorians of Revan's time, so please do not bring them up again.

Sure, why not. Cool armor for all.

Of course I don't think that the Mandalorians from a long time ago were good for killing people, but they only killed them when it was required to protect themselves back in Revan's time. They wiped out cities only because the Republic kept their military bases in the middle of cities. It was the Republic's fault, not the Mandalorians. Hell, Canderous said he hated killing people.

Continued in next post...

2. And the Mandalorians sucked in those times...proof? They gave the RuusanSith trouble and Durge has killed TWO Mandalores: One in JAster's time, and the one who murdered his trainer. And Durge was killing Jedi Ruusan AND Sith. The latter being around.....2500 BBY? And for the record: Nomi's skills were down instantly. It's called 'rage'

3. Revan's wars were in....3960-50 something. That's FORTY YEARS after the great Sith war, several centuries after the great droid rebellion, 300 years before the Schism for an Order that's likely STILL REBUILDING FROM NIHILIUS AND SION....great credentials.

4. Who's double playing? Until the Naddists, they hadn't faced a threat in centuries. After that, they lost half their order, then about....what, ninety percent of it to Sion and Nihilius? I don't think 'strength' falls under 'getting exterminated'

5. In the NEC, it said the ganks embarked on war...until promptly put down by the Jedi. The Kanz disorder lasted three centuries...until toppled by the Jedi. Never ANY hint they got involved until the end. And the Yinchorri wars threatened the Republic until Valorum had them blockaded

6. Nadd proficient in Sith magic? Sadow refused to teach him a damn bit of power? Killed a master as an apprentice? Yes....by ACCIDENT during a sparring match. Fought off the beast riders? You mean a newly formed rabble group that had nothing to stand up to his power...hell, it's a sign of Nadd's deficiency that he couldn't annihilate them.

7. Seventeen Dark Jedi is a lot more than Exar Kun had serving him. And in Labyrinth of Evil and the Grievous Visionaries story, it's revealed Grievous was commander because it was known he'd butcher a thousand worlds and would be an easy scapegoat at war's end for Tyranus and Sidious.

8. Fights have rules in this case. Otherwise we can just say 'so and so would rig the room and never show up'

9. Considering in the HS trilogy, we never learn when Xendor's rebellion was, LET ALONE a time frame...

10. Yes, I'm certain non-Ancients didn't have Dark Side armor. Yes, I'm sure Ludo Kressh's spirit didn't inhabit a tomb-how was it built exactly? he was VAPORIZED IN SPACE AND HIS PEOPLE SUBSEQUENTLY EXTERMINATED.
Yes, as KJA said that Ragnos was the last Sith lord buried on Korriban.
Fight the facts all you want.

11. The death watch were EXACTLY like the Mandalorians of revan's time: Cowardly butchers who massacred innocents. They split because the DW wanted to continue the old traditions of murder and mayhem. And name a single innocent person Jango murdered in cold blood, now.

12. WHAT?! You mean, the Republic decided to think the Mandalorians WEREN'T savage butchers of the innocent and would show some goddamn humanity by not SLAUGHTERING innocent people and were proven wrong?

12. Jango made the Mandalorians great again. After numerous millenia of butchery and psychosis.....and seriously, Canderous got the old Mandalorian remnants, most of whom were already warriors.

13. WHAT THE HELL?! The Hapan empire was canonically STATED in the Courtship of Princess Leia, in the very opening chapters to be 60 worlds! The Tetan system was seven worlds...Considering the Sith Empire was described as /tiny/ next to the Republic and-not only that- the Hutt empire around the size of the Hapans...
Where was this Empire figure stated now?

And Canderous was referring to soldier strength, your point? Doesn't mean he had a huge collection of worlds. In fact, in the old marvel comics, when the Mandalorian empire was first established, they have a small collection from the old Taungs...nothing close to 200,000 worlds-where the HELL are you getting these figures?-, including concord Dawn, Ordo, Mandalore, Shogun,Kutar....Mandalore the Indomitable even acknowledged the Mandalorian empire as small but strong. Outnumbered five to one doesn't refer to the galaxy and holdings, it refers to who there they were fighting and the soldier number

Originally posted by Borbarad
Who said there were badmouthed ? The point was that nobody can say for sure that a group of people (in this case Sith) were extinct if there is a Galaxy for them to hide.

How could a schism in the Jedi Order [b]not involve Dark Jedi / Sith ? That's like saying "There is a schism in the catholic church and no Christians are involved."

I do get the picture. Do you get it too ? In a war everything is allowed. Using technology to boost up your force powers might be unfair - but that technology is part of the people's power. Take it away and you can make matches like "X vs Y both naked, without using weapons and force powers" because using a lightsaber against less powerful weapons is unfair and using the force against none force users is also unfair.

You still don't get it. The "Great Shism" was leading to the start of the Sith Empire. This is what the TOTJ comics tell, this is what starwars.com tells. And it happend in "the early days of the Jedi" - yet the early days of the Jedi are 25,000 years before ANH. Obi-Wan in ANH tells us that the Jedi order existed for "thousand generations" and 1 generation is 25 years. So...what do you want to argue ? I'd like to have quotes from the Chronology telling that:

a) None of Xendor's followers survived
b) The Dark Jedi from the 100 Year Darkness were the first to arrive at the Sith Empire.

And yes...I'd like to see the link to the Q&A page since the Endnotes for the New Essential Chronology (on SW.com) tell exactly the same that I try to tell you.

Naga Sadow made Gav Daragon the "commander" of the fleet (which is not "second in command"😉 because he knew Republic space and you happen to miss the fact that they devasted dozens of worlds before getting stopped (the death and destruction they caused was the reason for Gav to betray Sadow). Since when is Naga Sadow = the entire ancient Sith Empire by the way ?
And uuuuuh...destiny itself was working against Sidious. Oh no. The bad uber powerful destiny. Sidious failed because of his own arrogance and not because of "destiny". [/B]

2. A Dark Jedi is NOT a Sith. Xendor was a dark Jedi, Sora Bulq was a Dark Jedi...

3. Well, it's a good thing comparing someone's power and a one on one fight with rules down to the bare basics of power isn't a no-holds bar war

4. That early days thing was retconned. Period. Look up Leland Chee's QaA
And for the record: It does say the survivors of Corbos were the ones to discover the peaceful, primitive if powerful Sith Empire and became hailed as Gods, built the Sith Empire...it also says Xendor's rebellion was the first of many schisms-screwing the continuity over, I agree.

5. Sidious certainly did a lot more than any Sith before him, didn't he? And considering it was Anakin's destiny to kill him, along with the detail he was focused on torturing Luke out of pure rage....he screwed up, yes. At the very least, his second in command had been loyal for twenty years.
And Dozens of worlds? Where are you getting this? They attack THREE WORLDS and the fighting on Cinnagar tolds Gav it was wrong...they lost on every world, too. And Sadow made Gav Daragon his fleet commander why exactly? Along with his second in command for the invasion...that is either insanity or pure idiocy. JUST focusing on Sadow and Gav now. they caused reparable damage on Coruscant, Koros Major and Kirrek, that was it. The NEC even says they invaded those worlds, and no mentions of any other. They came out of hyperspace right near those groups of planets, too...And considering Naga Sadow is the only face we can actually PUT on the ancient Sith empire, as the comic focused on him as Dark Lord who screwed up in every concievable way...

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. The Jedi were certainly ready to believe. Ooroo himself said noone in the Order believed him about the dangers of the sith.

The Council didn't believe Qui-Gon in the PT era either untill they had one Sith Lord killed. Still I don't get what you want to tell me. At least they thrusted Odan-Urr when he was saying that the Sith are about to attack Coruscant.

2. A Dark Jedi is NOT a Sith. Xendor was a dark Jedi, Sora Bulq was a Dark Jedi...

That's arguing semantics. The point - as far as I remember - was that the Jedi at that time had to fight against Dark Side users, no matter if they were Dark Jedi or Sith.

3. Well, it's a good thing comparing someone's power and a one on one fight with rules down to the bare basics of power isn't a no-holds bar war

If you want to judge somebody's power level you have to take everything in consideration that the person has. That includes weapons and other equipment. If you take away Boba Fett's armor and weapons he's not as powerful as with them, same goes for a Jedi without a lightsaber. Still we don't know how much power those "toys" add to the force user and that makes it impossible to figure out how much power they would have without them. Arguing that is nothing but a pointless waste of time.

4. That early days thing was retconned. Period. Look up Leland Chee's QaA

The one you still have failed to provide a link to despite the fact that I asked you to do that ?

And for the record: It does say the survivors of Corbos were the ones to discover the peaceful, primitive if powerful Sith Empire and became hailed as Gods, built the Sith Empire...it also says Xendor's rebellion was the first of many schisms-screwing the continuity over, I agree.

That is senseless. It contradicts the primary sources, starwars.com and any logic. You're basically saying that in a matter of 2,000 years the Sith filled an entire planets with graves for their Dark Lords and forgot everything about the Jedi. Considering the fact that they can live for centuries that happened in 10 or 15 generations.
Now that's like saying humans on earth would lose knowledge in the matter of 250 or 350 years and since I study history their are sources dating back 1,600 or more than 5,000 years. And the Sith Empire was just one culture developing further were on Earth "dominating" cultures were whiped out (Ancient Greeks, Roman Empire). What you assuming there is nothing but a historical impossibility especially when you consider the fact that the spirits of the Sith Lords remained present sometimes for thousands of years (as Sidious 5,000 years later talked to them).

And Dozens of worlds? Where are you getting this? They attack THREE WORLDS and the fighting on Cinnagar tolds Gav it was wrong...they lost on every world, too. And Sadow made Gav Daragon his fleet commander why exactly? Along with his second in command for the invasion...that is either insanity or pure idiocy. JUST focusing on Sadow and Gav now. they caused reparable damage on Coruscant, Koros Major and Kirrek, that was it. The NEC even says they invaded those worlds, and no mentions of any other. They came out of hyperspace right near those groups of planets, too...And considering Naga Sadow is the only face we can actually PUT on the ancient Sith empire, as the comic focused on him as Dark Lord who screwed up in every concievable way...

As I allready said: Your bias against the ancient Sith is incredible.
Just a little analysis of the events of the Great Hyperspace War:

Right before it you have the Battle of Khar Delba where Sadow was attacked by the combined forces of Kressh, Dor Gal-ram and Horak-mul and although he won that fight this shows clearly that Sadow didn't even come close to take all forces of the Ancient Sith Empire into the war.

This is followed by the Battle of Coruscant. First off it's stupid to assume that only four Jedi were present at the entire planet. Those four shown are just the commanders of the defending forces - Coruscant, even back in that days was the heart of the Jedi Order. And Sadow's forces were basically stopped by the betrayal of Gav who shot Naga's meditation sphere thereby destroying all illusions down on the planet which of course strenghtened the confidence of the forces down on the planet who thought to have been outnumbered heavily by the Sith. You basically can't tell if that battle had gone the same way if that hadn't happened.

The Battle of Korus Major was fought by those troops that weren't needed at Coruscant. Of course it was somehow stupid by Sadow to give Gav the command over the invasion force. But still - when Gav is confronted by Jori you can see some nice fires in the background meaning that they had caused some destruction on the planet. At least Gav did flee from the sight leaving his forces without commander and of course they were defeated...

During the battle of Kirrek even Odan-Urr and his battle meditation weren't able to stop the onslaught of the Massasi. Here Ooroo turned the tide of the battle by sacrificing himself poisoning and thereby instantly killing a great part of the invading Sith forces. It was pretty clear that they couldn't have won that battle without that action.

Then you have the Battle of Primus Goluud where Gav betrayed Sadow a last time. Sadow didn't waste much time before throwing solar flares around with his ship and then they escaped to Korriban where you have two battles happen. The first between Sadow and Kressh and the second between Sadow and the Tetans who had followed him.

And now think about what would have happened if Sadow's meditation sphere wouldn't have been damaged and Sadow would have had access to the entire forces of the Ancient Sith Empire (which he clearly hadn't) and if he hadn't faced such a bad luck with Kirrek. Coruscant and Kirrek would have fallen and with a more competent commander I'm quite sure Koros Major would have been taken also. Also the Tetans could never have reached Korriban without Gav giving them the coordinates to the planet. So Sadow failed because of betrayal (first by the other Sith Lord, then by Gav) and bad luck (Ooroo attacking the Sith on Kirrek) and that hardly makes himself "screwing anything up". The only mistake he had made was thrusting Gav - the same way Sidious made the mistake to thrust Vader and later Luke which led to his downfall in ROTJ and DE. The little difference is that Sadow managed to survive his mistakes and was still around 600 years later...and it were Sadow's teachings to Nadd that led to the rebuilt of the Sith Order with the rule of the two after the battle of Ruusan. Don't forget that...

Originally posted by Borbarad
The Council didn't believe Qui-Gon in the PT era either untill they had one Sith Lord killed. Still I don't get what you want to tell me. At least they thrusted Odan-Urr when he was saying that the Sith are about to attack Coruscant.

That's arguing semantics. The point - as far as I remember - was that the Jedi at that time had to fight against Dark Side users, no matter if they were Dark Jedi or Sith.

If you want to judge somebody's power level you have to take everything in consideration that the person has. That includes weapons and other equipment. If you take away Boba Fett's armor and weapons he's not as powerful as with them, same goes for a Jedi without a lightsaber. Still we don't know how much power those "toys" add to the force user and that makes it impossible to figure out how much power they would have without them. Arguing that is nothing but a pointless waste of time.

The one you still have failed to provide a link to despite the fact that I asked you to do that ?

That is senseless. It contradicts the primary sources, starwars.com and any logic. You're basically saying that in a matter of 2,000 years the Sith filled an entire planets with graves for their Dark Lords and forgot everything about the Jedi. Considering the fact that they can live for centuries that happened in 10 or 15 generations.
Now that's like saying humans on earth would lose knowledge in the matter of 250 or 350 years and since I study history their are sources dating back 1,600 or more than 5,000 years. And the Sith Empire was just one culture developing further were on Earth "dominating" cultures were whiped out (Ancient Greeks, Roman Empire). What you assuming there is nothing but a historical impossibility especially when you consider the fact that the spirits of the Sith Lords remained present sometimes for thousands of years (as Sidious 5,000 years later talked to them).

As I allready said: Your bias against the ancient Sith is incredible.
Just a little analysis of the events of the Great Hyperspace War:

Right before it you have the Battle of Khar Delba where Sadow was attacked by the combined forces of Kressh, Dor Gal-ram and Horak-mul and although he won that fight this shows clearly that Sadow didn't even come close to take all forces of the Ancient Sith Empire into the war.

This is followed by the Battle of Coruscant. First off it's stupid to assume that only four Jedi were present at the entire planet. Those four shown are just the commanders of the defending forces - Coruscant, even back in that days was the heart of the Jedi Order. And Sadow's forces were basically stopped by the betrayal of Gav who shot Naga's meditation sphere thereby destroying all illusions down on the planet which of course strenghtened the confidence of the forces down on the planet who thought to have been outnumbered heavily by the Sith. You basically can't tell if that battle had gone the same way if that hadn't happened.

The Battle of Korus Major was fought by those troops that weren't needed at Coruscant. Of course it was somehow stupid by Sadow to give Gav the command over the invasion force. But still - when Gav is confronted by Jori you can see some nice fires in the background meaning that they had caused some destruction on the planet. At least Gav did flee from the sight leaving his forces without commander and of course they were defeated...

During the battle of Kirrek even Odan-Urr and his battle meditation weren't able to stop the onslaught of the Massasi. Here Ooroo turned the tide of the battle by sacrificing himself poisoning and thereby instantly killing a great part of the invading Sith forces. It was pretty clear that they couldn't have won that battle without that action.

Then you have the Battle of Primus Goluud where Gav betrayed Sadow a last time. Sadow didn't waste much time before throwing solar flares around with his ship and then they escaped to Korriban where you have two battles happen. The first between Sadow and Kressh and the second between Sadow and the Tetans who had followed him.

And now think about what would have happened if Sadow's meditation sphere wouldn't have been damaged and Sadow would have had access to the entire forces of the Ancient Sith Empire (which he clearly hadn't) and if he hadn't faced such a bad luck with Kirrek. Coruscant and Kirrek would have fallen and with a more competent commander I'm quite sure Koros Major would have been taken also. Also the Tetans could never have reached Korriban without Gav giving them the coordinates to the planet. So Sadow failed because of betrayal (first by the other Sith Lord, then by Gav) and bad luck (Ooroo attacking the Sith on Kirrek) and that hardly makes himself "screwing anything up". The only mistake he had made was thrusting Gav - the same way Sidious made the mistake to thrust Vader and later Luke which led to his downfall in ROTJ and DE. The little difference is that Sadow managed to survive his mistakes and was still around 600 years later...and it were Sadow's teachings to Nadd that led to the rebuilt of the Sith Order with the rule of the two after the battle of Ruusan. Don't forget that...

1. They totally disregarded Ooroo and Odan until Jori Daragon arrived.

2. Yoda's time had to fight against Dark Jedi, too. Hell, Yoda put down an entire rebellion of them from Bpfassh

3. So, stop claiming the Ancient Sith were 'strong enough to tear the cores out of stars' because they need their toys for it. IF you claim you can punch through a brick wall, do it without a gauntlet.

4. How...many times....do I have to post this damn thing?!
http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa?threadID=222689&start=615#12367041
There you go, ask him yourself if you're so inclined.

5. The Ancient Sith spirits remained on Korriban. The point is, you can throw wahatvever logical impossibilities in it you want, but the point remains: Ragnos's empire was 2000 years old, period. 7000 BBY to 5000 BBY, the chronology directly states it. It contradicts nothing but what was retconned.

6. you miss where Sadow hardly lifted a finger against Ludo and his men: Horak and Dol were killed when their crews decided they were loyal to Naga and drove Kressh away. Not only that, Ludo was attacking the wrong location, leaving himself wide open

7. The Sith weren't gaining ground even BEFORE Gav-who you forgot to note Sadow put in charge of his fleet- fired on him...and those four Jedi are all we see arriving. We're not shown a single other knight.

8. The devastation was from the Sith's initial landing and Koros Major was a major location: Empress Teta's homeworld, she being the second strongest power behind the Republic. They were beaten here without any sort of Jedi on world and with Jori Daragon killing a whole Massassi squad.
9. They'd have won without Ooroo's sacrifice is like saying saying the Executor wouldn't have been destroyed without Arvel Crynyd, or without Obi-wan's sacrifice Luke would've died....it shows Naga underestimating the heroism of the Jedi. And the Sith have no excuse for having their lines broken by a group of ex-cons.

10. Gav died right off and Sadow never 'threw stars around'...he used his ship to trigger the explosion. The first battle between Kressh and Sadow lasted, how long....minutes? and that's because a ship slammed into Kressh's, because the moron was completely undefended in the fleet....not only that, Teta's forces devastated Sadow's fleet instantly.

11. Sadow had access to the entirety of the sith empire except Ludo's small group. And with a competent commander? A competent commander, like Ragnos, knew even with their combined strength they weren't winning. Ragnos said Sadow's folly would ruin the golden age. And you'll notice Sadow hardly surived his errors. He was a crushed, broken man who never regained his glory and was struck down by an angry kid. And Nadd didn't have a thing to do with the teachings of the order...he never told Kun about him: What Kun knew, he learned for himself on Korriban....he never even listened to Nadd till he found Sadow's gauntlet....and Nadd died minutes later.
The Sith were outnumbered and outclassed. They were beaten tactically and by their own errors.
Ludo's betrayal? That's thanks to Naga's folly
Ooroo's sacrifice? That's not bad luck, that's Jedi heroism
Sadow's illusions? Gav Daragon, a kid he barely knows as his number 2

Originally posted by Lightsnake
2. Yoda's time had to fight against Dark Jedi, too. Hell, Yoda put down an entire rebellion of them from Bpfassh

Well...in times of Kotor alone they had the Mandalorian Wars, the Sith War and the Jedi Civil War in 15 years. So still the KotoR people have more actual battle experience.

3. So, stop claiming the Ancient Sith were 'strong enough to tear the cores out of stars' because they need their toys for it. IF you claim you can punch through a brick wall, do it without a gauntlet.

The point is they have done it. It doesn't matter if they used toys or not since they always have that toys present. So it's useless to think about them without having the toys. And even if you want to do that - since you don't know how much those toys boost their power up you will never come to any conclusion.

4. How...many times....do I have to post this damn thing?!
http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa?threadID=222689&start=615#12367041
There you go, ask him yourself if you're so inclined.

Nice link. Unfortunatelly it's just a link to a VIP thread and you don't think that I will go through 91 pages before I find what you claim to be there, do you ? Because it's not on the page that you linked, where Mr. Chee is just talking about KotoR 2...

5. The Ancient Sith spirits remained on Korriban. The point is, you can throw wahatvever logical impossibilities in it you want, but the point remains: Ragnos's empire was 2000 years old, period. 7000 BBY to 5000 BBY, the chronology directly states it. It contradicts nothing but what was retconned.

Since you have again failed to provide a link to Mr. Chee saying that something is "retconned" by the Chronology the contradiction against SW.com still remains. Period.

6. you miss where Sadow hardly lifted a finger against Ludo and his men: Horak and Dol were killed when their crews decided they were loyal to Naga and drove Kressh away. Not only that, Ludo was attacking the wrong location, leaving himself wide open

He still didn't have control over their forces...

7. The Sith weren't gaining ground even BEFORE Gav-who you forgot to note Sadow put in charge of his fleet- fired on him...and those four Jedi are all we see arriving. We're not shown a single other knight.

Yeah. Because we saw no other arriving to a planet which happens to be the heart of the Jedi Order their can't be others. So in times of the CW cartoons the people we saw defending Coruscant are the only people present (Yoda, Mace, the Jedi commando that tried to protect Sidious) and the other people were on vacation on the other side of the Galaxy, right ?

8. The devastation was from the Sith's initial landing and Koros Major was a major location: Empress Teta's homeworld, she being the second strongest power behind the Republic. They were beaten here without any sort of Jedi on world and with Jori Daragon killing a whole Massassi squad.

She killed Gav's bodyguards using a lightsaber and they hadn't weapons against that and were surprised by the attack. Seeing that Odon Urr had given that lightsaber to Jori and she was force sensitive that's basically like Massasi vs a Jedi (and we've seen that people with force sensitivity and a lightsaber can fight quite well - Nomi Sunrider was descriped as "handling the saber like a master" when she used it first. And still the Sith troops were left without a commander to fight the Tetans...

9. They'd have won without Ooroo's sacrifice is like saying saying the Executor wouldn't have been destroyed without Arvel Crynyd, or without Obi-wan's sacrifice Luke would've died....it shows Naga underestimating the heroism of the Jedi. And the Sith have no excuse for having their lines broken by a group of ex-cons.

That's so great. The Sith were fighting the defenders back and even battle meditation wasn't enough to stop them - so what should have stopped them if no Jedi in a tank filled with deadly toxins would have been present, eh ? Comparing that to other situations is stupid. And the Sith have no excuse for being shocked after a single attack had wiped out a massive amounts of their army ? Yeah, right. And Sadow didn't underestimate the Jedi heroism he simply didn't know that one of them (not with his power but with his tank full of toxic material) would be present and able to destroy his forces.
How many times do you think that can happen ?

10. Gav died right off and Sadow never 'threw stars around'...he used his ship to trigger the explosion. The first battle between Kressh and Sadow lasted, how long....minutes? and that's because a ship slammed into Kressh's, because the moron was completely undefended in the fleet....not only that, Teta's forces devastated Sadow's fleet instantly.

Without Gav damaging the meditation sphere at Coruscant and without him submitting the coordinates of Korriban to the Tetan's that battle wouldn't have happend like that.

11. Sadow had access to the entirety of the sith empire except Ludo's small group.

Ludo's small group of people which contained enough Sith Lords to declare him the Dark Lord which must have been more than half of what was left of the Council ? Yeah...right...

And with a competent commander? A competent commander, like Ragnos, knew even with their combined strength they weren't winning. Ragnos said Sadow's folly would ruin the golden age.

Ragnos estimated that because the Jedi / Republic had triumphed over his ancestors. And it's nice how you simply ignore the point of betrayal...

And you'll notice Sadow hardly surived his errors. He was a crushed, broken man who never regained his glory and was struck down by an angry kid.

Wow. That's sure more impressive than getting killed by a crippled force user, getting killed again because losing the control over your own powers and getting shot in the back like your favourite all powerful Sidious did it...

And Nadd didn't have a thing to do with the teachings of the order...he never told Kun about him: What Kun knew, he learned for himself on Korriban....he never even listened to Nadd till he found Sadow's gauntlet....and Nadd died minutes later.

Uuuh...check the sources and you'll figure out that Darth Bane got some nice ideas (including the rule of two) from Nadd's tomb.

The Sith were outnumbered and outclassed. They were beaten tactically and by their own errors.
Ludo's betrayal? That's thanks to Naga's folly
Ooroo's sacrifice? That's not bad luck, that's Jedi heroism
Sadow's illusions? Gav Daragon, a kid he barely knows as his number 2

And Sidious was destroyed while outnumbering and outclassing his enemies. So Ancient Sith > Sidious. Thanks
Ludo's betrayal was thanks to Ludo's own will and not thanks to Naga's folly or is Sidious responsible for Vader betraying him ?
Ooroo's sacrifice was bad luck becaus: How many Jedi you will find living in a tank filled with material that is toxic enough to instakill a great part of an invading army ?
And well...Sadow's illusions were gone, no matter why and with his mediation sphere there was one of his nice little toys gone.

As great a debate as this is...did this somehow come from Revan vs. Mace & Mundi?

Originally posted by Captain REX
As great a debate as this is...did this somehow come from Revan vs. Mace & Mundi?

Yeah, it did. The usual sidetrack. Since in Versus characters are foten compared, it's not unusual to have to defend your comparisons.

Mundi could take both of them ✅

Wtf?

Um, no, he could not?