DE Sidious versus Marka Ragnos

Maybe ebcause there is zero proof of that, just conjecture. Yoda was described in no uncertaint erms as the strongest enemy the darkness had ever known by the time of the PT. We know Yoda was one of, if not the strongest master the roder had ever produced and he has a LOT to his past-hinted areas of brushes with the Dark side, probable battles with the Sith Order of Bane, numerous fights....Dark Rendevous's a great soruce on that.

Thing is, nothing support Exar or Marka 'stomping' the others, certainly not Luke at his best. It's conjecture, plain and simple

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Your point being, Nai? Most everyone on TFN, Sw.com and MF share the Sidious view

Yeah. Than bring "most everyone" here and let them be crushed. I wonder how nearly every damn site that contains information about the Ancient Sith Empire lists its rulers (especially Ragnos) above "modern day Sith Lords" if almost all SW fans out there share your opinion.

2. No, he created academies of his own. Thule was long devastated.

Ah...it was long devasted and because of this it had a ruling class containing of Dark Side users that have sworn allegiance to people like Exar Kun ? And because it was long devasted their are several hundret millions of inhabitants ? And because Sidious built the place he used it as an inspiring example to "create" Byss ? WTF ?

3. Sith who couldn't be destroyed with war, Sith who couldn't be beaten....

Did you miss Sidious being put on his ass by Mace Windu ? Did you miss Vader getting toasted, crippled and finally killed ? Did you miss Dooku getting defeated by Yoda ? Did you miss Maul getting sliced in half by a Padawan ?

4. With the descriptions of legions of Sith, legions of Jedi, etc...

What "legions of Sith" under Sidious who ruled over an order of two ? Are you making up stuff again ?

5. Bane: "The Dark Side is spread too thin!" He said it should be embodied in one lord...then on Githany's suggestion, said 2....proof every dark lord's death weakens the DS

You agreed with me how the force works. Essentially the "light side" is the natural state. So...if there is no limited amount of Dark Side energies (which is an ridiculous idea) how can it be "spread too thin" by too many Sith Lords ? Did Sidious became stronger after Maul died and then weaker again when Dooku became his apprentice because there was less / more Dark Side power to him ? Any other stupid ideas ?

6. Try the entire force of the light at once. The evidence is right there and I posted it

The so called "Avatar of the light" (Yoda) can't do it but farmboy Luke can ?

7. Brand didn';t become a Force Ghost. He vanished into the Froce itself and eons of Jedi were described as holding Palpatine to the darkenss. Anakin, Yoda, Ulic, Arca, Vodo...Jedi don't have to become force ghosts to join the Force, everyone joins the Force....and proof it lasts for 10-15 years? Especially when you have a bastion of your power and the life force of thousands

What the .... ? People don't "join" the force they become one with it. This includes the LOSE of own will. They can't act individualy within the force unless they learned the technique Qui-Gon invented which was only true for Yoda, Obi-Wan and possibly Anakin. Since Anakin and Yoda have never shown up again after ROTJ, Obi-Wan's spirit is gone and the same thing can be suggested for Qui-Gon there can't be individuals left to hold Sidious back. So it must be the will of the force itself which is quite speculative since the force didn't show it's "will" before and never bothered to keep the spirits of Ancient Sith Lords under control.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Yeah. Than bring "most everyone" here and let them be crushed. I wonder how nearly every damn site that contains information about the Ancient Sith Empire lists its rulers (especially Ragnos) above "modern day Sith Lords" if almost all SW fans out there share your opinion.

Ah...it was long devasted and because of this it had [b]a ruling class containing of Dark Side users that have sworn allegiance to people like Exar Kun ? And because it was long devasted their are several hundret millions of inhabitants ? And because Sidious built the place he used it as an inspiring example to "create" Byss ? WTF ?

Did you miss Sidious being put on his ass by Mace Windu ? Did you miss Vader getting toasted, crippled and finally killed ? Did you miss Dooku getting defeated by Yoda ? Did you miss Maul getting sliced in half by a Padawan ?

What "legions of Sith" under Sidious who ruled over an order of two ? Are you making up stuff again ?

You agreed with me how the force works. Essentially the "light side" is the natural state. So...if there is no limited amount of Dark Side energies (which is an ridiculous idea) how can it be "spread too thin" by too many Sith Lords ? Did Sidious became stronger after Maul died and then weaker again when Dooku became his apprentice because there was less / more Dark Side power to him ? Any other stupid ideas ?

The so called "Avatar of the light" (Yoda) can't do it but farmboy Luke can ?

What the .... ? People don't "join" the force they become one with it. This includes the LOSE of own will. They can't act individualy within the force unless they learned the technique Qui-Gon invented which was only true for Yoda, Obi-Wan and possibly Anakin. Since Anakin and Yoda have never shown up again after ROTJ, Obi-Wan's spirit is gone and the same thing can be suggested for Qui-Gon there can't be individuals left to hold Sidious back. So it must be the will of the force itself which is quite speculative since the force didn't show it's "will" before and never bothered to keep the spirits of Ancient Sith Lords under control. [/B]

1. TFN and SW.com? By all means, go right there. Want the links?

2. All we know about Thule is Ulic had a hand in it that's all. Proof there were still millions of people there?

3. It's metaphorical, but the clash is decribed as Legions of Sith meeting Legions of Jedi, more than that: It's the light vs. Darkness.

4. I agreed it has a light and dark side, but dark side users can create areas of dark side energy. The Cave was one such place, so was Korriban and so were other Sith worlds and Yavin. And place cannot naturally be good or evil, but after thousands of years of guys living there, it'd have some effect. And take it up with Bane. Too many Dark Lords weakens the Sith themselves. Two was considered the perfect number.

5. Why is it so easy to ignore how Luke become a full avatar of the Light side in that fight and drew upon the full power of the Force?

6. Proof. All that means is they can't return. It's directly stated the Jedi of eons in the Force held Sidious in the Dark Side to make sure he'd never return. And perhaps the Ancient Sith Lords were never held in a dying Jedi's body...or since they're dead and no longer able to affect anything...It's not 'individuals' holding Sidious back, Brand faded to become one with the Force with Sidious's spirit. all the Jedi of eons make sure he never returns by holding him into the infinite abyss of the Dark Side. That's right in there. Qui-Gon didn't 'invent' the technique either. There is no proof force spirits lose their own will, because we know Anakin and Obi-wan spoke to Luke again and still exist. We've seen people contacted from the beyond, including Ulic Qel-Droma. Obi-wan chose to move on and once more: Sith spirits are different than Jedi spirits

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. TFN and SW.com? By all means, go right there. Want the links?

I wonder how people at TFN and SW.com fail to read on their own beloved websites in this case.

2. All we know about Thule is Ulic had a hand in it that's all. Proof there were still millions of people there?

Oh...that statement was taken from one of your beloved "articles" that listed the populace of Thule to several millions. But to return to fact based exercise:
Ulic fought there during the great Sith War and the Dark Reaper was stored on the planet. So I pretty much fail to see where Sidious built anything there or why he should have done it. But nevermind...

3. It's metaphorical, but the clash is decribed as Legions of Sith meeting Legions of Jedi, more than that: It's the light vs. Darkness.

A now using metaphors and hyperbole as arguments again ? It's getting boring...

4. I agreed it has a light and dark side, but dark side users can create areas of dark side energy. The Cave was one such place, so was Korriban and so were other Sith worlds and Yavin. And place cannot naturally be good or evil, but after thousands of years of guys living there, it'd have some effect. And take it up with Bane. Too many Dark Lords weakens the Sith themselves. Two was considered the perfect number.

The force itself is just "good" and the "Dark Side" is only generated by the way people use it. Now I wonder how the Dark Side can be weakened by too many people using it. That's complete BS. If any it would get stronger.
And too many Sith weaken the ORDER because of constant struggle for power within the order. What does that have to do with force powers. Ah...right...nothing...

5. Why is it so easy to ignore how Luke become a full avatar of the Light side in that fight and drew upon the full power of the Force?

Why is it so hard to understand that something like an "avatar of the light side" doesn't exists because that would mean he would have the energy of all living things in the galaxy combined which he hadn't.

6. Proof. All that means is they can't return. It's directly stated the Jedi of eons in the Force held Sidious in the Dark Side to make sure he'd never return. And perhaps the Ancient Sith Lords were never held in a dying Jedi's body...or since they're dead and no longer able to affect anything...It's not 'individuals' holding Sidious back, Brand faded to become one with the Force with Sidious's spirit. all the Jedi of eons make sure he never returns by holding him into the infinite abyss of the Dark Side. That's right in there. Qui-Gon didn't 'invent' the technique either. There is no proof force spirits lose their own will, because we know Anakin and Obi-wan spoke to Luke again and still exist. We've seen people contacted from the beyond, including Ulic Qel-Droma. Obi-wan chose to move on and once more: Sith spirits are different than Jedi spirits

So what ? If it aren't individuals holding him back it's the force itself because there isn't anything else than "individual force spirits" and "the force itself". And what logic do you use there ? The fact that people who knew the technique that Qui-Gon invented did something is proof for the statement that it can be done without knowing about that technique ? LMAO !

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Maybe ebcause there is zero proof of that, just conjecture. Yoda was described in no uncertaint erms as the strongest enemy the darkness had ever known by the time of the PT. We know Yoda was one of, if not the strongest master the roder had ever produced and he has a LOT to his past-hinted areas of brushes with the Dark side, probable battles with the Sith Order of Bane, numerous fights....Dark Rendevous's a great soruce on that.

Thing is, nothing support Exar or Marka 'stomping' the others, certainly not Luke at his best. It's conjecture, plain and simple

WTF? "Yoda was described in no uncertain terms as the strongest enemy the darkness had ever known by the time of the PT"?

Do you have a source for that? I want to see a scan of the page, please. That has to be absolute bullshit. In fact, list the page number if it's a novel; I might have it.

Originally posted by Borbarad
I wonder how people at TFN and SW.com fail to read on their own beloved websites in this case.

Oh...that statement was taken from one of your beloved "articles" that listed the populace of Thule to several millions. But to return to fact based exercise:
Ulic fought there during the great Sith War [b]and the Dark Reaper was stored on the planet. So I pretty much fail to see where Sidious built anything there or why he should have done it. But nevermind...

A now using metaphors and hyperbole as arguments again ? It's getting boring...

The force itself is just "good" and the "Dark Side" is only generated by the way people use it. Now I wonder how the Dark Side can be weakened by too many people using it. That's complete BS. If any it would get stronger.
And too many Sith weaken the ORDER because of constant struggle for power within the order. What does that have to do with force powers. Ah...right...nothing...

Why is it so hard to understand that something like an "avatar of the light side" doesn't exists because that would mean he would have the energy of all living things in the galaxy combined which he hadn't.

So what ? If it aren't individuals holding him back it's the force itself because there isn't anything else than "individual force spirits" and "the force itself". And what logic do you use there ? The fact that people who knew the technique that Qui-Gon invented did something is proof for the statement that it can be done without knowing about that technique ? LMAO ! [/B]

1. I'd really like to know how you hit that conclusion....You haven't met the big heads of knowledge at TFN or SW.com.

2. At what point in time was Thule described as such? And Sidious erected a Sith Academy there...the Dark Reaper was destroyed long ago in the Clone Wars, anyways.

3. Oh, just like this 'the earth shook under his feet' or 'they were Gods' lines? No offense, but that seems rather unfair.

4. Take it up with Bane. His quote, paraphrased-I'll scan it Thursday, busy tomorrow- "The Dark Side is spread to thin! For it to be strong, it must be contained within ONE dark Lord!
Githany: Or two.
Bane: Or two....
And the Dark Side is just generated like people using it? That sounds like Vergere to me...

5. Because It's apparent things like that do exist? Luke, Leia and Anakin unborn in DE called upon the full power of the Force, just as Jacen did in TUF and Anakin did in SbS.

6. Time for you to prove up. That's pure conjecture. IT's stated the Jedi of the eons are holding Sidious to the dark side forever....and there's the tiny detail that people have communicated with individuals LONG past...Ben talks briefly to Luke after the Thrawn trilogy, Anakin speaks to the ghost of Ulic, anakin is heard by Jacen MORGAN KATARN speaks to KYle...who the hell says they aren't individual? Lucas himself said on the commentary that Qui-Gon came back from the netherworld, which no other Jedi had done...Force ghosts can commune with the living, but there's still a world waiting on the other side. Hell, Vima says to Rayf a dying Jem 'goes to join the company of the great masters in the world beyond death'

Oh, yes, Yoda's credentials? Visual dictionary, Complete Locations, ROTS novelization

1) Appeal to authority, logical fallacy.

4) Bane is not the only authority on the Force and he's been contradicted by the other logic and evidence Nai keeps bringing up. Appeal to authority without adequately arguing your conclusion.

5) Begging the question. What is your conclusion here? The Force is described as the ultimate power in the universe, Sith Lords were able to twist it to perform godlike feats (among them ripping the cores from stars, for instance). If those three called upon "the full power of the Force" they would have done way more than simply push Palpatine's force storm on him. Hyperbole.

4) That is simply Bane's view of the Force. Many people of a different view of the Force. For example, some Dark Lords could see it as a weapon for destruction while others consider it a method of clouding judgment and concealing oneself. Another example, the Living Force and the Cosmic Force. Potentium. Unifying. Dark and Light. *shrug*

5) Calling upon the full power of the Force does not make one an avatar of the Force. Only Anakin could reasonably claim that title. His children are not avatars themselves.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. I'd really like to know how you hit that conclusion....You haven't met the big heads of knowledge at TFN or SW.com.

How do you know who I have met in my personal history as SW Fan, internet user and convention visitor.

2. At what point in time was Thule described as such? And Sidious erected a Sith Academy there...the Dark Reaper was destroyed long ago in the Clone Wars, anyways.

What ? I'm using the stuff that you have quoted yourself. When it fits your assertions it's the absolute an undenieable truth - when it is used against you it was never there ? I love it...

3. Oh, just like this 'the earth shook under his feet' or 'they were Gods' lines? No offense, but that seems rather unfair.

Have you ever seen somebody here arguing the power of the Ancient Sith or Kun only by that statements ?

4. Take it up with Bane. His quote, paraphrased-I'll scan it Thursday, busy tomorrow- "The Dark Side is spread to thin! For it to be strong, it must be contained within ONE dark Lord!
Githany: Or two.
Bane: Or two....
And the Dark Side is just generated like people using it? That sounds like Vergere to me...

No. That sounds like Lucas himself. I remind you: The lightside is the force in his natural state therefore the Dark Side is unnatural and killing all Sith is said to be the thing to do if you want to "balance" the force again - meaning restore the natural "lightside" state. So any Dark Side user existing would tap the balance in favour of the Dark Side. So I don't have to take it up with Bane - you have to take it up with Lucas himself who overrides anything else. Especially personal views by single characters.

5. Because It's apparent things like that do exist? Luke, Leia and Anakin unborn in DE called upon the full power of the Force, just as Jacen did in TUF and Anakin did in SbS.

And Luke somehow later lost that ability and that's why he thing it would need the combined force of the entire Academy to try fighting a living Ragnos ? Notice that this "combined" force would include a later (and if any more powerful) version of Luke, a "born" Anakin (therefore if any more powerful). So unless you want to tell me that the combined power of people like Kyp Durron, Jacen and Jaina, Kyle Katarn, Corran Horn etc. is less than the power of an untrained Leia...Ragnos > Sidious

And an "avatar of the force" regardless which side can't exist. Even Anakin himself if he ever had reached full potential couldn't have claimed that title since "avatar" would mean 100 % the force projected into a corporal form and such a thing doesn't exist. Even more unlogic to claim that a "avatar of the light side" and an "avatar of the Dark Side" can exist at once since they are basically the same power.

6. Time for you to prove up. That's pure conjecture. IT's stated the Jedi of the eons are holding Sidious to the dark side forever....and there's the tiny detail that people have communicated with individuals LONG past...Ben talks briefly to Luke after the Thrawn trilogy, Anakin speaks to the ghost of Ulic, anakin is heard by Jacen MORGAN KATARN speaks to KYle...who the hell says they aren't individual? Lucas himself said on the commentary that Qui-Gon came back from the netherworld, which no other Jedi had done...Force ghosts can commune with the living, but there's still a world waiting on the other side. Hell, Vima says to Rayf a dying Jem 'goes to join the company of the great masters in the world beyond death'

I like how you're making things up. Anakin and Obi-Wan can be left out for knowing the technique invented by Qui-Gon. Same goes for Yoda. Kyle wasn't speaking to Morgan Katarn who wasn't a Jedi he was just watching a holo-disc (time to do your homework before start argueing with me).

So the people that "came back" to talk to somebody:
- Ulic (talking to Anakin in the AotC game)
- Vodo (returning to defeat Kun)
- Qui-Gon (voice heared in AotC and he's "teaching" Yoda and Obi-Wan his technique)
- Anakin (who is basically at least 50 % the force itself and might have been taught by Qui-Gon)

And I love how I should proof up when you argue against pretty much everything stated so far. When you want to take it to a canon level the only people who have shown the ability to remain as "individuals within the force" (I wonder how you missed that statement in the ROTS novel) are Qui-Gon, who taught it to Obi-Wan and Yoda (as mentioned in ROTS) and Anakin who's 50 % the force itself. I could pretty easily argue that anything else was overwritten by ROTS (movie + novel).

Oh, yes, Yoda's credentials? Visual dictionary, Complete Locations, ROTS novelization

I know what Yoda has done and what he's descriped as. The ROTS novel says he's the "Avatar of light" but that can be dismissed as said above since something like this can't simply exists especially not when Anakin had the higher force potential which would make him 100+ % the force. Ridiculous.

Aside from that he has defeated a Dark Jedi on Dagobah, he possibly fought some Sith Lords (or one) in his early years (which according to you would be less powerful compared to Sidious), fought Dooku into a stalemate or defeated him (at least Dooku managed to escape). Now how does that add to your point. He was fighting people who are - according to yourself - all weaker than Sidious and Sidious - according to a statement from Luke himself - would be nothing compared to Ragnos. So unless you can pull something up that overwrites Luke statement (which you can't since there is no other comment on the power of a living Ragnos) you can consider this debate to be over since there is nothing to argue here. Ragnos > Sidious.

Originally posted by Borbarad
How do [b]you know who I have met in my personal history as SW Fan, internet user and convention visitor.

What ? I'm using the stuff that you have quoted yourself. When it fits your assertions it's the absolute an undenieable truth - when it is used against you it was never there ? I love it...

Have you ever seen somebody here arguing the power of the Ancient Sith or Kun only by that statements ?

No. That sounds like Lucas himself. I remind you: The lightside is the force in his natural state therefore the Dark Side is unnatural and killing all Sith is said to be the thing to do if you want to "balance" the force again - meaning restore the natural "lightside" state. So any Dark Side user existing would tap the balance in favour of the Dark Side. So I don't have to take it up with Bane - you have to take it up with Lucas himself who overrides anything else. Especially personal views by single characters.

And Luke somehow later lost that ability and that's why he thing it would need the combined force of the entire Academy to try fighting a living Ragnos ? Notice that this "combined" force would include a later (and if any more powerful) version of Luke, a "born" Anakin (therefore if any more powerful). So unless you want to tell me that the combined power of people like Kyp Durron, Jacen and Jaina, Kyle Katarn, Corran Horn etc. is less than the power of an untrained Leia...Ragnos > Sidious

And an "avatar of the force" regardless which side can't exist. Even Anakin himself if he ever had reached full potential couldn't have claimed that title since "avatar" would mean 100 % the force projected into a corporal form and such a thing doesn't exist. Even more unlogic to claim that a "avatar of the light side" and an "avatar of the Dark Side" can exist at once since they are basically the same power.

I like how you're making things up. Anakin and Obi-Wan can be left out for knowing the technique invented by Qui-Gon. Same goes for Yoda. Kyle wasn't speaking to Morgan Katarn who wasn't a Jedi he was just watching a holo-disc (time to do your homework before start argueing with me).

So the people that "came back" to talk to somebody:
- Ulic (talking to Anakin in the AotC game)
- Vodo (returning to defeat Kun)
- Qui-Gon (voice heared in AotC and he's "teaching" Yoda and Obi-Wan his technique)
- Anakin (who is basically at least 50 % the force itself and might have been taught by Qui-Gon)

And I love how I should proof up when you argue against pretty much everything stated so far. When you want to take it to a canon level the only people who have shown the ability to remain as "individuals within the force" (I wonder how you missed that statement in the ROTS novel) are Qui-Gon, who taught it to Obi-Wan and Yoda (as mentioned in ROTS) and Anakin who's 50 % the force itself. I could pretty easily argue that anything else was overwritten by ROTS (movie + novel).

I know what Yoda has done and what he's descriped as. The ROTS novel says he's the "Avatar of light" but that can be dismissed as said above since something like this can't simply exists especially not when Anakin had the higher force potential which would make him 100+ % the force. Ridiculous.

Aside from that he has defeated a Dark Jedi on Dagobah, he possibly fought some Sith Lords (or one) in his early years (which according to you would be less powerful compared to Sidious), fought Dooku into a stalemate or defeated him (at least Dooku managed to escape). Now how does that add to your point. He was fighting people who are - according to yourself - all weaker than Sidious and Sidious - according to a statement from Luke himself - would be nothing compared to Ragnos. So unless you can pull something up that overwrites Luke statement (which you can't since there is no other comment on the power of a living Ragnos) you can consider this debate to be over since there is nothing to argue here. Ragnos > Sidious. [/B]

HAHA!

You messed some grammar. The 'A' before 'Avatar of hte Light side' should be an 'An'.

Glad you could contribute intelligently to the discussion.

Originally posted by IKC
Glad you could contribute intelligently to the discussion.

There isn't much to contribute. Lightsnake has no argument left, so I believe it's unaminous.

Originally posted by ResubianNushi
HAHA!

You messed some grammar. The 'A' before 'Avatar of hte Light side' should be an 'An'.

Considering the fact that English is a foreign language to me I have to say that I can live with that mistake...

Oh, indeed. That's the story of what, five or six threads so far?

Originally posted by Borbarad
Considering the fact that English is a foreign language to me I have to say that I can live with that mistake...

I vow never to make fun of your grammar, since mine is actually probably worse.

Then do not come into a thread merely to critique a person for a minor mistake when later you say that you are likely worse

Originally posted by Lord Darkstar
Then do not come into a thread merely to critique a person for a minor mistake when later you say that you are likely worse

The value of sarcasm has fallen greatly...........

Relax, guys. He's just kidding.

Alright, sorry about that

Originally posted by Borbarad
How do [b]you know who I have met in my personal history as SW Fan, internet user and convention visitor.

What ? I'm using the stuff that you have quoted yourself. When it fits your assertions it's the absolute an undenieable truth - when it is used against you it was never there ? I love it...

Have you ever seen somebody here arguing the power of the Ancient Sith or Kun only by that statements ?

No. That sounds like Lucas himself. I remind you: The lightside is the force in his natural state therefore the Dark Side is unnatural and killing all Sith is said to be the thing to do if you want to "balance" the force again - meaning restore the natural "lightside" state. So any Dark Side user existing would tap the balance in favour of the Dark Side. So I don't have to take it up with Bane - you have to take it up with Lucas himself who overrides anything else. Especially personal views by single characters.

And Luke somehow later lost that ability and that's why he thing it would need the combined force of the entire Academy to try fighting a living Ragnos ? Notice that this "combined" force would include a later (and if any more powerful) version of Luke, a "born" Anakin (therefore if any more powerful). So unless you want to tell me that the combined power of people like Kyp Durron, Jacen and Jaina, Kyle Katarn, Corran Horn etc. is less than the power of an untrained Leia...Ragnos > Sidious

And an "avatar of the force" regardless which side can't exist. Even Anakin himself if he ever had reached full potential couldn't have claimed that title since "avatar" would mean 100 % the force projected into a corporal form and such a thing doesn't exist. Even more unlogic to claim that a "avatar of the light side" and an "avatar of the Dark Side" can exist at once since they are basically the same power.

I like how you're making things up. Anakin and Obi-Wan can be left out for knowing the technique invented by Qui-Gon. Same goes for Yoda. Kyle wasn't speaking to Morgan Katarn who wasn't a Jedi he was just watching a holo-disc (time to do your homework before start argueing with me).

So the people that "came back" to talk to somebody:
- Ulic (talking to Anakin in the AotC game)
- Vodo (returning to defeat Kun)
- Qui-Gon (voice heared in AotC and he's "teaching" Yoda and Obi-Wan his technique)
- Anakin (who is basically at least 50 % the force itself and might have been taught by Qui-Gon)

And I love how I should proof up when you argue against pretty much everything stated so far. When you want to take it to a canon level the only people who have shown the ability to remain as "individuals within the force" (I wonder how you missed that statement in the ROTS novel) are Qui-Gon, who taught it to Obi-Wan and Yoda (as mentioned in ROTS) and Anakin who's 50 % the force itself. I could pretty easily argue that anything else was overwritten by ROTS (movie + novel).

I know what Yoda has done and what he's descriped as. The ROTS novel says he's the "Avatar of light" but that can be dismissed as said above since something like this can't simply exists especially not when Anakin had the higher force potential which would make him 100+ % the force. Ridiculous.

Aside from that he has defeated a Dark Jedi on Dagobah, he possibly fought some Sith Lords (or one) in his early years (which according to you would be less powerful compared to Sidious), fought Dooku into a stalemate or defeated him (at least Dooku managed to escape). Now how does that add to your point. He was fighting people who are - according to yourself - all weaker than Sidious and Sidious - according to a statement from Luke himself - would be nothing compared to Ragnos. So unless you can pull something up that overwrites Luke statement (which you can't since there is no other comment on the power of a living Ragnos) you can consider this debate to be over since there is nothing to argue here. Ragnos > Sidious. [/B]

1./ Come to TFN and SW.com then, why don't you?

2. And there was nothing ther eon the history of Thule, just the satus of it under Palpatine.

3. Yes.

4. Which doesn't account for the numerous other darksiders running around....things have been explained. Sith aren't your average run of the mill dark sider...Palpatine would need to die to save the balance, but General Grievous and Gethzerion would not

5. Except the direct text misporves you wrong here. Jacen. Ganner. Anakin. Luke. Even if they're not 'avatars' they were opened completely and utterly to the Force. Name ONE other force user duel that whose combatanants were so powerful to be felt across the galaxy by any force sensitive.

6. Which is why Morgan appears in the Valley of the JUedi to warn Kyle? Anakin never learned Qui-gon's technique and Obi-wan was gone in the Thrawn trilogy and speaks again from the Force twenty years later. And you've avoided this: Coming back from the netherworld isn't just 'retaining yourself' there is no proof that JEdi lose their sense of self within the Force. In fact, evidence swings against it.

7. Yeah, Luke compared Ragnos to Sidious now? I recall him mentioning hiow much it'd take to stop HETHRIR....and great, you can automatically dismiss a line now? Because it doesn't fit your version of the continuity? That's a little biased.

just look at expressions of power now: Palpatine's expression of power-not even his ultimate power was felt all across the galaxy. Palpatine unelashed the rgeatest weapon of the Sith and obliterated a feat. Palpatine was stated to have amstered every aspect of the Force, from the Sith to the JEdi, to the Tund, to the Krath....he created NEW and powerful techniques....Oh, wait, I forgot, actually describing someone's power is a feat war