DE Sidious versus Marka Ragnos

Originally posted by Lightsnake
7. Yeah, Luke compared Ragnos to Sidious now? I recall him mentioning hiow much it'd take to stop HETHRIR....and great, you can automatically dismiss a line now? Because it doesn't fit your version of the continuity? That's a little biased.

just look at expressions of power now: Palpatine's expression of power-not even his ultimate power was felt all across the galaxy. Palpatine unelashed the rgeatest weapon of the Sith and obliterated a feat. Palpatine was stated to have amstered every aspect of the Force, from the Sith to the JEdi, to the Tund, to the Krath....he created NEW and powerful techniques....Oh, wait, I forgot, actually describing someone's power is a feat war

Luke who has already bested Sidious at that point thought it would need him and the combined power of everybody in the Academy to try and fight a living Ragnos. What exactly didn't you understand there. Luke defeated Sidious with a little help of unborn Anakin and Leia. How would "DE Luke +unborn Anakin + Leia" be more powerful than a more experienced and more powerful Luke + the combined power of a born Anakin, Jacen Solo, Jaina Solo, Kyp Durron, Kyle Katarn and dozens of other people ? Do you want to argue that ? Ragnos > Sidious.

And I don't have to look at the "expression of power". We have seen Ragnos using nothing since we have never seen him alive and still Luke things that he's a greater threat than Sidious ever was. What do you want to argue here ?
That Sidious had access to knowledge that came from the ANCIENT SITH EMPIRE which RAGNOS DOMINATED FOR OVER A CENTURY and therefore is greater than somebody who DOMINATED THE ENTIRETY OF THE PEOPLE WHO DID INVENT THAT KNOWLEDGE ? Or that Sidious who had only access to what was left of the complete knowledge Ragnos had would be more proficient and have more knowledge than Ragnos himself. If you have every bit of knowledge that can be optained from Ancient Egypt Culture today would you know more about it than a Pharao from that time ? No ? THIS IS WHAT YOU TRY TO ARGUE HERE. Give it up - you have lost since Luke's own statement isn't contradicted. Period.

One more thing. In Dark Lord, Sidious says that, had Anakin died on Mustafar, he would have had to find the knowledge to manipulate midichlorians and influence them to do his bidding. He then says that this was knowledge once possessed by the most powerful of the Ancient Sith.

Whoops. There goes 'cideus nose1!'.

5. Except the direct text misporves you wrong here. Jacen. Ganner. Anakin. Luke. Even if they're not 'avatars' they were opened completely and utterly to the Force. Name ONE other force user duel that whose combatanants were so powerful to be felt across the galaxy by any force sensitive.

Ragnos' ghost made the force "tremble." No battle necessary, him giving his lecture does that.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Luke who has [b]already bested Sidious at that point thought it would need him and the combined power of everybody in the Academy to try and fight a living Ragnos. What exactly didn't you understand there. Luke defeated Sidious with a little help of unborn Anakin and Leia. How would "DE Luke +unborn Anakin + Leia" be more powerful than a more experienced and more powerful Luke + the combined power of a born Anakin, Jacen Solo, Jaina Solo, Kyp Durron, Kyle Katarn and dozens of other people ? Do you want to argue that ? Ragnos > Sidious.

And I don't have to look at the "expression of power". We have seen Ragnos using nothing since we have never seen him alive and still Luke things that he's a greater threat than Sidious ever was. What do you want to argue here ?
That Sidious had access to knowledge that came from the ANCIENT SITH EMPIRE which RAGNOS DOMINATED FOR OVER A CENTURY and therefore is greater than somebody who DOMINATED THE ENTIRETY OF THE PEOPLE WHO DID INVENT THAT KNOWLEDGE ? Or that Sidious who had only access to what was left of the complete knowledge Ragnos had would be more proficient and have more knowledge than Ragnos himself. If you have every bit of knowledge that can be optained from Ancient Egypt Culture today would you know more about it than a Pharao from that time ? No ? THIS IS WHAT YOU TRY TO ARGUE HERE. Give it up - you have lost since Luke's own statement isn't contradicted. Period. [/B]

1. a LITTLE Help? If by a 'little' you mean 'calling upon the entire power of the Force a la Jacen in TUF...and that's not an easy state for JEdi to reach. And Luke says they need their entire strengtht o stop Hethrir....and Kueller.

2. Exactly. We've seen ragnos using nothing. And he also had access to knowledge Ragnos could never have known existed. And proof Luke thinks Ragnos was a greater threat than Sidious ever was? He thought Sidious was a threat to the force itself.

1) You didn't answer him. How do DE Luke, unborn Anakin, and untrained Leia have more combined power than a more powerful Luke, a pre-teen Anakin, teenage / pre-teen Jacen and Jaina, Kyle Katarn, Corran Horn, Kyp Durron, Kam Solusar, Jaden Korr, etc.

Short answer? They don't.

2) How would he have access to knowledge Ragnos didn't even know about when that knowledge was created in Ragnos's time? Hell, Sidious even stated that Plagueis once let him view the ancient holocrons he possessed. Once. So Plagueis knows more about the Dark Side and its secrets than Sidious. Ups.

1. Simple: Because those three together were literally channeling the entire force against Palpatine and weren't using it to fight him, quite the opposite: They used it to protect him and draw him into the light.

2. What knowledge could Ragnos have had of the Jedi and their abilities? And it's a bit unfair to compare Plageuis to Sidious when Sidious is still an apprentice and hasn't had time to get what he'll have later...plus, we know next to nothing about Plageuis, but his little teaching method sounds...awesome

1) And apparently, Luke didn't even consider that a viable option against Ragnos. Uh oh.

2) What knowledge would he have needed about the Jedi abilities? Most of the Jedi holocrons and databases were most likely about history, past figures of importance, philosophy, and ideology. Again, anything that Sidious knows about the Sith and the Dark Side, Ragnos knows, and much, much more.

1. Chalk that up to another 'leap frogging of powers' in the EU....in one comic, Leia's portrayed with the skill of Nomi Sunrider...next book, she's a beauracrat with no skill...it's possible they couldn't use that against Ragnos with the absence of Leia and an unborn Force kid whose potential could be directed...

2. There's still a lot of Jedi abilities to learn, Morichiro for example? We know Sidious mastered EVERY aspect of the sith and the Jedi, plus the other Force devoted sects. And once more: Morichiro, a technique Ragnos can't know about-I believe it was invented much later would kill an opponent instantly

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Chalk that up to another 'leap frogging of powers' in the EU....in one comic, Leia's portrayed with the skill of Nomi Sunrider...next book, she's a beauracrat with no skill...it's possible they couldn't use that against Ragnos with the absence of Leia and an unborn Force kid whose potential could be directed...

2. There's still a lot of Jedi abilities to learn, Morichiro for example? We know Sidious mastered EVERY aspect of the sith and the Jedi, plus the other Force devoted sects. And once more: Morichiro, a technique Ragnos can't know about-I believe it was invented much later would kill an opponent instantly

1- So Luke can only beat Ragnos with an unborn baby's potential and his halfwit sister? Are we really building a case here?

2- First, prove that Sidious mastered EVERY aspect of the Sith and the Jedi. Not only is it impossible, but it's unlikely, improbable, and it opens up all sorts of questions like "Why did he need to take power in the shadows?" "Why did he have to have Anakin and Clone troops kill the jedi if he was that uber?" "Why did he rely on superweapons if he had the knowledge of Sith Lords who could toy with stars using their trinkets?" "Why did he let Mace beat his ass and melt his face if he was so damn knowledgable and uber?" "Why why why why?"

Why? Cuz he doesn't know all of it. That's bullshit. And Morichiro, the fabled Force technique, is not a symbol of power. Yaddle knew of it. I doubt Ragnos, who stepped all over Simus (Who could maintain himself as a living head for over a century) would be pwned by Morichiro. So please, give it up.

1. You mean using the entirety of the power of the Force, using an unprecedented approach against a Sith?

2. I already have. Posted that little passage many times:

He had spent decades devoted to meditation and study, immersing himself in the secrets and lore of a thousand worlds and a thousand cults, secluded in his monasteries and libraries. He had made pilgrimages to Korriban, to Dromund Kaas, the Ziost, to Had Abbadon, to Arkania, to Apollyon, to Cos. He had mastered the great power in all its guises – the Force, the sublime Eternity, the All, the Great Unity, the Tyia, the Quwa Akhrín, the White Current – and in all its traditions – the Sith Lords, the Jedi Knights, the Krath Society, the Nightsisters of Dathomir, the Heresiarch Congregation, the Shamans of the Jarvashqiine, the Intisharim. He had learned the esoteric martial arts of Teräs Käsi and Yad Hadíd; he had mastered the forms and styles of the lightsaber. He knew the secrets of Quey'tek and the Doppelgänger, Malacia and Morichro, Mechu Duru and Lilakhrin, and countless more. He was deeply immersed in the thousands of years of traditions from thousands of cults and sects. He was a specter of the past – a phantom menace – the revenge of the Sith."

Blame Lucas's poor storytelling...oh, and that pasage is from the narrarator.,...and maybe he wanted Anakin to turn to the dark side? Maybe killing JEdi was a perfect test for Anakin and his troops 'quelling a rebellion' was a brilliant political move? Or maybe he hadn't learned all he did until after the fall of the Jedi and Republic?

And yeah, yaddle knew Morichiro...her and who else? She herself rarely used it. And Morichiro wasn't around or KNOWN to the ancient Sith...and considering a random force sensitive priestess kept her head alive in a box...

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. You mean using the entirety of the power of the Force, using an unprecedented approach against a Sith?

2. I already have. Posted that little passage many times:

He had spent decades devoted to meditation and study, immersing himself in the secrets and lore of a thousand worlds and a thousand cults, secluded in his monasteries and libraries. He had made pilgrimages to Korriban, to Dromund Kaas, the Ziost, to Had Abbadon, to Arkania, to Apollyon, to Cos. He had mastered the great power in all its guises – the Force, the sublime Eternity, the All, the Great Unity, the Tyia, the Quwa Akhrín, the White Current – and in all its traditions – the Sith Lords, the Jedi Knights, the Krath Society, the Nightsisters of Dathomir, the Heresiarch Congregation, the Shamans of the Jarvashqiine, the Intisharim. He had learned the esoteric martial arts of Teräs Käsi and Yad Hadíd; he had mastered the forms and styles of the lightsaber. He knew the secrets of Quey'tek and the Doppelgänger, Malacia and Morichro, Mechu Duru and Lilakhrin, and countless more. He was deeply immersed in the thousands of years of traditions from thousands of cults and sects. He was a specter of the past – a phantom menace – the revenge of the Sith."

Blame Lucas's poor storytelling...oh, and that pasage is from the narrarator.,...and maybe he wanted Anakin to turn to the dark side? Maybe killing JEdi was a perfect test for Anakin and his troops 'quelling a rebellion' was a brilliant political move? Or maybe he hadn't learned all he did until after the fall of the Jedi and Republic?

And yeah, yaddle knew Morichiro...her and who else? She herself rarely used it. And Morichiro wasn't around or KNOWN to the ancient Sith...and considering a random force sensitive priestess kept her head alive in a box...

lol

1- So Luke, Leia, and "teh baby" summoned the ENTIRETY OF THE FORCE? They what? Basically did the Star Wars equivalent of a DBZ Spirit Bomb and absorbed EVERY bit of the Force itself to use against a degenerating clone body of a relatively young Sith Lord? LMFAO...

And of course it never happened before. Not many Sith Lords were challenged by diplomats, farmboys and babies. Sheesh! God save the Sith Lords! lol

I think you put WAY too much stock into that plot device.

2- I already went over this information with you. It's infeasible that he knew ALL of the knowledge readily available to the Jedi and to the Sith. But let me placate you and say that he did indeed learn many of the things you list...

He did this in perhaps, 60 years tops?

What do you think is the accumulated knowledge of a Sith Empire thousands of years old, a Jedi Order older still, and any of the dozens of miscellaneous Force covens, orders, groups and cults can be mastered by a closet Sith politician while he was training Darth Maul, while he was learning some but not all of Plageus' knowledge?

LMFAO!

You sir, are deluded!

And prove to me that Ragnos and the ancient Sith have NO defense against Morichiro. Prove it.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Chalk that up to another 'leap frogging of powers' in the EU....in one comic, Leia's portrayed with the skill of Nomi Sunrider...next book, she's a beauracrat with no skill...it's possible they couldn't use that against Ragnos with the absence of Leia and an unborn Force kid whose potential could be directed...

You are again dodging points. How would Luke, Leia and Anakin (unborn) in DE be stronger than a later Luke, a later Anakin + Jacen and Jaina, Kyp Durron, Kyle Katarn, Corran Horn and dozens of other people. Or to make it easier for you. How would Leia alone be more powerful than Jacen, Jaina, Kyp Durron, Kyle Katarn, Corran Horn and all other Jedi combined + the power that Luke and Anakin gained from DE times to JK:JA ? She can't be. Therefore Ragnos > Sidious.

2. There's still a lot of Jedi abilities to learn, Morichiro for example? We know Sidious mastered EVERY aspect of the sith and the Jedi, plus the other Force devoted sects. And once more: Morichiro, a technique Ragnos can't know about-I believe it was invented much later would kill an opponent instantly

What a pile of bullsh*t.

a)
Sidious couldn't use the Jedi holocrons to a full extend. He couldn't use the Holocron that Luke is using later because the Gatekeeper refuses to give him access since he's no Jedi. That is told. So how would he know "everything about the Jedi" if he can't use all sources. Therefore this statement is hyperbole and you can cut it off. It's contradicted by the actual sources.

b)
Other force devoted sects ? All of them did receive knowledge from the Ancient Sith Empire (e.g. the Krath) or the Jedi (e.g. the witches of Dathomir) - or they use the force in ritualized form. So either the knowledge is Jedi / Sith lore that Sidious already know or he can't use it in a fight since it is used in rituals.

c)
Morichro is an ancient technique and forbidden knowledge within the Jedi order that only Council members had access to. And it doesn't "instakill" it "rapidly slows the body functions of target beings" - so it doesn't kill it slows down body functions. And a similar technique is available as Dark Side power in the KotoR games and considering the fact that it was a forbidden art within the Jedi Order it might be a dark side ability.

So what you say is nothing else than "Marka Ragnos didn't have access to an Ancient Sith technique that Sidious had access to". And that Sidious had access to it is debateable as you can see under point "a".

1. Sidious was nearly a century old by this time and YES, they drew upon the full power of the Force to stop him. That wasn't a degenerating Clone Body either, that was a new, fresh one...before JAx, Lumiya and the council did some sabatoge....and you have ANY idea how strong baby anakin was? Vima felt him in the womb and the Ancient Sith considered him incredibly powerful...they called him the one being with the power to sustain Palpatine's spirit within him.

2. So what? The knowledge is there, crystal clear, black and white. It may be unfeasible, but it HAPPENED. You might as well say there couldn't be no explosions in space, or blobs of force jello can't exist. I can't explain it, I admit, but it's there. In the continuity.

3. Morichiro's a technique that Ragnos and his gang have never encountered and kills an opponent instantly.

Up... Nai just hit the nail on the head. Please answer his questions, Lightsnake.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Sidious was nearly a century old by this time and YES, they drew upon the full power of the Force to stop him. That wasn't a degenerating Clone Body either, that was a new, fresh one...before JAx, Lumiya and the council did some sabatoge....and you have ANY idea how strong baby anakin was? Vima felt him in the womb and the Ancient Sith considered him incredibly powerful...they called him the one being with the power to sustain Palpatine's spirit within him.

"Drew upon the full power of the force" is either hyperbole or it can be reproduced by the later versions of the same people. And how would THE BORN AND 10 YEAR OLD ANAKIN be weaker than the unborn one, eh ?

2. So what? The knowledge is there, crystal clear, black and white. It may be unfeasible, but it HAPPENED. You might as well say there couldn't be no explosions in space, or blobs of force jello can't exist. I can't explain it, I admit, but it's there. In the continuity.

He couldn't use some of the Jedi Holocrons and therefore had no access to the knowledge stored within them. Your statement is pwned, overwritten and fubar'ed by actual sources.

3. Morichiro's a technique that Ragnos and his gang have never encountered and kills an opponent instantly.

Read my last post and start crying, fanboy.

Originally posted by Borbarad
You are again dodging points. How would Luke, Leia and Anakin (unborn) in DE be stronger than a later Luke, a later Anakin + Jacen and Jaina, Kyp Durron, Kyle Katarn, Corran Horn and dozens of other people. Or to make it easier for you. How would [b]Leia alone be more powerful than Jacen, Jaina, Kyp Durron, Kyle Katarn, Corran Horn and all other Jedi combined + the power that Luke and Anakin gained from DE times to JK:JA ? She can't be. Therefore Ragnos > Sidious.

What a pile of bullsh*t.

a)
Sidious couldn't use the Jedi holocrons to a full extend. He couldn't use the Holocron that Luke is using later because the Gatekeeper refuses to give him access since he's no Jedi. That is told. So how would he know "everything about the Jedi" if he can't use all sources. Therefore this statement is hyperbole and you can cut it off. It's contradicted by the actual sources.

b)
Other force devoted sects ? All of them did receive knowledge from the Ancient Sith Empire (e.g. the Krath) or the Jedi (e.g. the witches of Dathomir) - or they use the force in ritualized form. So either the knowledge is Jedi / Sith lore that Sidious already know or he can't use it in a fight since it is used in rituals.

c)
Morichro is an ancient technique and forbidden knowledge within the Jedi order that only Council members had access to. And it doesn't "instakill" it "rapidly slows the body functions of target beings" - so it doesn't kill it slows down body functions. And a similar technique is available as Dark Side power in the KotoR games and considering the fact that it was a forbidden art within the Jedi Order it might be a dark side ability.

So what you say is nothing else than "Marka Ragnos didn't have access to an Ancient Sith technique that Sidious had access to". And that Sidious had access to it is debateable as you can see under point "a". [/B]

1. Because the EU plays ping pong with powers and personalities, and Anakin's force potential in the womb was able to be harnessed by LEia and they drew up the complete and utter power of the Force? Stop arguing this, it's written in black and white how Sidious was bested and it wasn't by fighting him.

2. Shame, it's written he knew all of the Jedi right there. Sorcerers of Tund? Shamans of the Jarvashqiine, the Intisharim...what'd the Sith get to them? It's written he'd mastered the force that way, same way it's written ragnos was the strongest of the Ancient Empire.

3. Morichiro was still a jedi technique and described as a way of killing a being, apologies, thought it was an instakill

I find it ironic that you will argue sources that further your points regarding Sidious, despite that they don't rationally make sense, but anything we use in favor of our side is flawed and subject to your opinions and views of authenticity.

Originally posted by Borbarad
"Drew upon the full power of the force" is either hyperbole or [b]it can be reproduced by the later versions of the same people. And how would THE BORN AND 10 YEAR OLD ANAKIN be weaker than the unborn one, eh ?

He couldn't use some of the Jedi Holocrons and therefore had no access to the knowledge stored within them. Your statement is pwned, overwritten and fubar'ed by actual sources.

Read my last post and start crying, fanboy. [/B]

1. Y'know what, Nai? It's NOT hyperbole, it's stated right there what they drew on EXACTLY, that they unleashed the full fury of the light. Stop with this hyperbole bull when it gets to something you don't agree with.

2. My statement is official and pwns anything you can theorize on the matter. GO on, theorize what you want, but Sidious'll have mastered all aspects of the Force-even says in the databank he unlocked the secrets of the Force from the Jedi holocrons- and there'll be explosions and sound in space along with people shooting lightning out their hands

You mean when I actually use official things in my argument, Janus? That for some reason you write off just because you don't agree with it? That seems a bit unfair

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Because the EU plays ping pong with powers and personalities, and Anakin's force potential in the womb was able to be harnessed by LEia and they drew up the complete and utter power of the Force? Stop arguing this, it's written in black and white how Sidious was bested and it wasn't by fighting him.

Again: Tell me how the same people later would be less powerful and unable to reproduce this feat again. Did Anakin suffer some serious loss of power during his birth ? Did Luke suffer some serious loss of power between DE and JK:JA ? No. Then why you keep dodging the point that Luke suggested that it would need MORE power to JUST TRY to take it up with a living Ragnos than was needed to overwhelm Sidious which basically is equal to saying Ragnos > Sidious.

2. Shame, it's written he knew all of the Jedi right there. Sorcerers of Tund? Shamans of the Jarvashqiine, the Intisharim...what'd the Sith get to them? It's written he'd mastered the force that way, same way it's written ragnos was the strongest of the Ancient Empire.

Shame that it's written that he couldn't use the Jedi holocrons and therefore wasn't able to learn what was placed in them. Therefore hyperbole. There is no way to argue that. And mind how I stated "...or used the force in a ritualized form that won't give Sidious anything in a fight...".

3. Morichiro was still a jedi technique and described as a way of killing a being, apologies, thought it was an instakill

a) There is a similar Sith technique. Period.
b) It's descriped as "slowing down body functions of the target being" and not "killing". Putting people into an artificial coma = killing ? Tranquilizer = killing ? Teaching somebody Yoga techniques = Killing ? Point made up by Lightsnake #1932...

Lying fanboys can't save Sidious