DE Sidious versus Marka Ragnos

Originally posted by Illustrious
Wow, you must think you're slick. The DE sourcebook is not canon, it does not account for other things outside of the DE continuity. It does not take into account TOTJ. TOTJ on the other hand, does make references to other times. It makes a reference to dates, etc. and also mentions the ancient Sith as being godlike and having titanic power after referencing the later generations! How convenient.

So that means the DE Sourcebook is obsolete. It was made BEFORE TOTJ, by WESTEND GAMES (not Lucasarts or Lucasfilm) for [b]their roleplaying game.

Good try. I hope you're not trying to hang your hat on this. You discount one RPG (the D20 version) yet you prop up the sourcebook for another (the D6). So if I reference the D20 sourcebook stating that Ragnos is the most powerful dark lord of the sith, I have you beat?

Kinda like the continuity error of how Palpatine trained Maul for 15 years behind Plagueis' back, right? This diminishes the displayed power of Ragnos' scepter how?

I'll call your hand, and I'll raise you Naga Sadow, Ludo Kressh, Lord Simus, and 17 other Sith Lords.

Are any of those even Sith? Oops, nope.

See above about Sourcebook. The DE Sourcebook is an obsolete sourcebook about an RPG. Why not have me bring out my DnD manual? It's about as relevant.

Sorry, you don't decide level of canon Lightsnake.

And this was superior to the Sith Empire -- officially described as the high point of Sith power, how?

Those feats are not comparative. In case you're daft:

[code]
com·par·a·tive ( P ) Pronunciation Key (km-pr-tv)
adj.

Relating to, based on, or involving comparison.
Of or relating to the scientific or historical comparison of different phenomena, institutions, or objects, such as languages, legal systems, or anatomical structures, in an effort to understand their origins or relationships.
Estimated by comparison; relative: a comparative newcomer.
Grammar. Of, relating to, or being the intermediate degree of comparison of adjectives, as better, sweeter, or more wonderful, or adverbs, as more softly.

n. Grammar
The comparative degree.
An adjective or adverb expressing the comparative degree.
[/code]

By your logic, because Sidious never came close to "dominating" over a "wealthy Empire" of "millions" of "godlike Sith," he doesn't even come close to Ragnos.

Cut it with the feat wars, you're digging yourself a bigger hole. [/B]

1. And who made that decision that it 'only applies to the DE timeline'? Applied to the OT and a bit of the Thrawn risis as well. Proof now. And scan now, when does TOTJ do anything of the sort, especially when we see them as nothing but weak? killed by random MASSASSI?

2. Korriban appears in the DE story as well as the ancients. Wow, you were saying obsolete? Is the THRAWN trilogy obsolete? In fact, given that we know Sith can't exist as force ghosts and the Sith Empire was 2000 years old, it seems TOTJ's canonity is far mroe disputed. I want an exact canon quote saying DE sourcebook is obsolete. Just because you want it to be doesn't make it so.

3. If we were talking about DnD, I'd fully expect you to use the old handbook, but as this is Star Wars and DE sourcebook applies fully to Palpatine...when did yOU decide level of canon? When was the Sith EMpire compared to later levels? In fact, Bane's is described as in the ROTS novelization as the strongest.

4. Proof there were millions of Sith. There were twenty lords. Now, what did Ragnos do to compare to Sidious? We already know when you were Dark Lord, you were there for life....that's why Freedon Nadd left, after all.

1. And who made that decision that it 'only applies to the DE timeline'? Applied to the OT and a bit of the Thrawn risis as well. Proof now. And scan now, when does TOTJ do anything of the sort, especially when we see them as nothing but weak? killed by random MASSASSI?

It's referenced in the very first Golden Age of the Sith comic. Anyone with the comic should have no trouble confirming it. For one who was so thoroughly pwned by scans by IKC, I'm glad you were so easily able to shrug them off. The quotes are there, and if you don't believe me, I have even less of a reason to believe your quotes, especially since you've been confirmed to lie before.

The OT and the Thrawn Crisis were just a few millenia off the Ancient Sith, don't you think?

2. Korriban appears in the DE story as well as the ancients. Wow, you were saying obsolete? Is the THRAWN trilogy obsolete? In fact, given that we know Sith can't exist as force ghosts and the Sith Empire was 2000 years old, it seems TOTJ's canonity is far mroe disputed. I want an exact canon quote saying DE sourcebook is obsolete. Just because you want it to be doesn't make it so.

Hah, that's exactly what I mean. TOTJ is later canon continuity. It is official and that is the retcon. The Sith Empire is more than 2000 years old, and that's where the DE sourcebook has shown an inconsistency.

TOTJ is official + newer than the DE sourcebook, it states the Sith Empire was at its peak 5000 years prior to the movies. It retconned the DE sourcebook, plain and simple.

4. Proof there were millions of Sith. There were twenty lords. Now, what did Ragnos do to compare to Sidious? We already know when you were Dark Lord, you were there for life....that's why Freedon Nadd left, after all.

It was a planet full of dark siders. There were Twenty Sith Lords, that's 19 more than Sidious ever had at any given time.

And where's your proof that they were there for life? Is that why Ludo Kressh brought up an ARMY to supplant Naga Sadow?

pwns znoobx

LMAO!

Woo!

Originally posted by Illustrious
It's referenced in the very first Golden Age of the Sith comic. Anyone with the comic should have no trouble confirming it. For one who was so thoroughly pwned by scans by IKC, I'm glad you were so easily able to shrug them off. The quotes are there, and if you don't believe me, I have even less of a reason to believe your quotes, especially since you've been confirmed to lie before.

The OT and the Thrawn Crisis were just a few millenia off the Ancient Sith, don't you think?

Hah, that's exactly what I mean. TOTJ is later canon continuity. It is official and that is the retcon. The Sith Empire is more than 2000 years old, and that's where the DE sourcebook has shown an inconsistency.

TOTJ is official + newer than the DE sourcebook, it states the Sith Empire was at its peak 5000 years prior to the movies. It retconned the DE sourcebook, plain and simple.

It was a planet full of dark siders. There were Twenty Sith Lords, that's 19 more than Sidious ever had at any given time.

And where's your proof that they were there for life? Is that why Ludo Kressh brought up an ARMY to supplant Naga Sadow?

1. Provide 'em. I'll have the first comic shortly. Answer the question: Is the Thrawn trilogy now defunct because of later info? Still nhaven't shown how DE cotnradicts TOTJ, which contradicts the movies anyways.

2. And oh yes, from the essay: s the reigning Dark Lord of the Sith, Sidious controlled the secret world of Thule (Thurra I), which Geonosis and the Outer Rim Worlds calls "a sleeping Sith asset in the vast space of the Outer Rim"; there, the population of 790 million is ruled by a clerical-military junta from the capital city of Hurom, and the planet has a Sith Temple and a Sith Arts Academy. This world functioned as a breeding/training ground for armies of Sith loyalists, and is dominated by priests and prophets of the religion and traditions of the vanished Sith Empire, although they did swear allegiance to Darth Bane's Sith Order and probably also to its predecessors, Exar Kun's Sith Brotherhood and Lord Kaan's Brotherhood of Darkness. Sidious retained Thule for his own purposes, and deliberately erased all information about it from "histories and the few sources that documented its existence," determined that it would "continue as a resource for the Sith, not the Empire." Given its remote location in the Outer Rim, its ruling Sithian theocracy, its pervasive atmosphere of the dark side of the Force, and the devotion of its entire population to the schemes of the Sith cultists in power, it is possible that Thule served as the inspiration for Palpatine's dark side utopia on Byss, hidden within the Deep Galactic Core.

Shall I scan in Jedi vs. Sith? Where Bane says that more Dark Lords weakens the Force? Kaan ruled over a huge council of Dark Lords, was HE stronger than Ragnos? In the ROTS novelization, it's said the Sith had evolved, changed and grown stronger and Palpatine is described as the 'Lord of all Sith'

And if you bothered to read the link I provided, you'd see that sourcebooks aren't the only thing it shows by a long shot.

And no comment on how with Palpatine's death, the Dark Side itself lost power...

And oh, yes....what created Ulic Qel-Droma? Wasn't KJA....Ulic was first defined in Dark Empire-post script Dark Side compendium. Original guide to characters has his first appearance as 'Dark Empire', as well as Baas and other old age lore KJA made use of

And in DE, Palpatine is also referred to as 'Godlike'...the only way to ever truly destroy him was to expose him to the light. Written down and I quote:
They drew light from the stars, from the rocks, from the twisted metal of the Emperor's throne room . . . and from the wells of courage deep within themselves. Their harmony swelled now to a crescendo of light –

The Emperor blinked.

There was something wrong, something horribly wrong. He could not feel his wrath now, could not feel the awesome power pulsing through him. The darkness that was his eternal companion – the darkness that penetrated every fibre of his being – was gone. He reached for his lightning, but it did not answer. He summoned his winds, but they did not come. He snarled in impotent rage – and only then did he understand.

Only then did he see the light.

He screamed in wordless agony, a scream of horror that cut deep into the soul. The light washed over him, washing away his evil, burning away the darkness that fed him, that empowered him, that filled his being. The light enveloped him, driving away the shadows of all his lifetimes.

He was the Master of the dark side, the Lord of all it offered. War itself had become his weapon, his tool; he had defeated the Jedi because they'd failed to realize that they lost the moment they began fighting him. Their greatest warriors became his pawns, their most noble struggles fuel for his power. And as Yoda himself had fought him with all his power, he had not realized that he only fed the insatiable hunger of the dark side – the insatiable hunger of the Sith.

And yet these two – these three – had not fought him. They had not used the Force to crush him, to sweep him aside – but to heal him, to protect him. When he had plunged himself into the very depths of the dark side, they had used the light to reach down and pull him out.

They had exposed him to the light for the barest of instants.

And that was far too long for the Galactic Emperor.

The Force storm beyond had been summoned from the Emperor's soul, formed of his rage and his will and hurled upon his enemies – his implacable wrath given form. And now as the dark side fled him, his will no longer drove the raw destruction he had unleashed. His power overreached, his rage lost cohesion – and the unfathomable force he had unleashed and driven lost direction. No longer was his rage driven outward, and so the cataclysmic storm did the only thing it could –

It returned to its maker.

All the Galactic Emperor's godlike power – the incomprehensible fury of his Force storm – uncontrolled and uncontrollable, rushed back into his soul, and not even that abyss could hold it. No longer could he control the darkness. His power was too great, too massive – it filled him until he could hold no more, and even then it pressed on – his great power grew greater and greater, filling him beyond limit – until reality itself bent, and it all collapsed inward. In a moment of exquisite agony – agony beyond words, beyond description – agony that no living being had ever felt before, or ever would again – he became in fact what he had always been in spirit:

A black hole of the Force.

At that moment, all that was Palpatine the Undying – all that was Palpatine the Emperor – dissolved into nothing at all.

And with that, the mighty Emperor – the deathless Emperor – the invincible Emperor – conquered himself.

And in Empire's End, the Force itself and all the Jedi hold him into the Dark Side, making sure he can never returned...not to mention the Force Stormw as described as one of the greatest weapons of the Sith

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Provide 'em. I'll have the first comic shortly. Answer the question: Is the Thrawn trilogy now defunct because of later info? Still nhaven't shown how DE cotnradicts TOTJ, which contradicts the movies anyways.

I think it's not that hard to understand how things in the continuity work. Somebody writes a story (in this case Mr. Zahn), another author pics up some detail from the story (in this case Mr. Veitch) and builts his own story on it. Now writer number 3 comes up and takes stuff from writer number 2 and creates another story (in this case Mr. Anderson - who has nothing in common with NEO, just wanted to point that out).

When Zahn was writing his stuff, Sidious was the most powerful Sith because there was no concurence so far. When Veitch did write DE you have the same thing - no concurrence so far and Sidious is still the most powerful. Now Anderson steps in and "designs" the Ancient Sith by writing their story down for the first time. Now...Sidious got some concurrence. People who seem to be more powerful. Where is the logic behind using "older" source labeling Sidious "the most powerful Sith ever" when he had no rival ? After having seen the first part of the Matrix trilogy you could say that nobody would be able to defeat Neo - would you still say the same thing after having watched Agent Smith kicking his ass ?

2. And oh yes, from the essay: s the reigning Dark Lord of the Sith, Sidious controlled the secret world of Thule (Thurra I), which Geonosis and the Outer Rim Worlds calls "a sleeping Sith asset in the vast space of the Outer Rim"; there, the population of 790 million is ruled by a clerical-military junta from the capital city of Hurom, and the planet has a Sith Temple and a Sith Arts Academy. This world functioned as a breeding/training ground for armies of Sith loyalists, and is dominated by priests and prophets of the religion and traditions of the vanished Sith Empire, although they did swear allegiance to Darth Bane's Sith Order and probably also to its predecessors, Exar Kun's Sith Brotherhood and Lord Kaan's Brotherhood of Darkness. Sidious retained Thule for his own purposes, and deliberately erased all information about it from "histories and the few sources that documented its existence," determined that it would "continue as a resource for the Sith, not the Empire." Given its remote location in the Outer Rim, its ruling Sithian theocracy, its pervasive atmosphere of the dark side of the Force, and the devotion of its entire population to the schemes of the Sith cultists in power, it is possible that Thule served as the inspiration for Palpatine's dark side utopia on Byss, hidden within the Deep Galactic Core.

And this is exactly saying nothing since Thule was an outpost of the ancient Sith Empire therefore a part of what Ragnos reigned over for 150 years.

Shall I scan in Jedi vs. Sith? Where Bane says that more Dark Lords weakens the Force? Kaan ruled over a huge council of Dark Lords, was HE stronger than Ragnos? In the ROTS novelization, it's said the Sith had evolved, changed and grown stronger and Palpatine is described as the 'Lord of all Sith'

How many things you want to make up to save Sidious, eh ? The ROTS novel states that the Sith can't be defeated by the light side because the more light you use against them the deeper their shadow gets. I wonder how this is of any revelance when Sidious is put up against another Dark Sider and I wonder where it states that they have become STRONGER. They are different but not stonger. Period.
And the "Lord of all Sith" stuff referres to the Dark Lord title and is true for every single DLotS in history.

And if you bothered to read the link I provided, you'd see that sourcebooks aren't the only thing it shows by a long shot.

And if you bothered to think and use logic instead of throwing random - and useless - information into debates you would have accepted that Ragnos is > Sidious ages ago.

And no comment on how with Palpatine's death, the Dark Side itself lost power...

Would you please listen to Lucas if he says something ? As long as there is a Dark Lord the Dark Side will be strong. Destroying the Sith results in "balance of the force" (meaning light side dominance). So of course the Dark Side lost power when Sidious died. It also lost power when Ragnos died, when Sadow died, when Kressh died...and so on...

And in DE, Palpatine is also referred to as 'Godlike'...the only way to ever truly destroy him was to expose him to the light. Written down and I quote:

This directly contradicts the ROTS novel which is the higher level of canon and therefore the quote is useless. Sidious can not be beaten by the light.

And in Empire's End, the Force itself and all the Jedi hold him into the Dark Side, making sure he can never returned...not to mention the Force Storm as described as one of the greatest weapons of the Sith

Again...the Force itself does something ? Why "the Force" didn't simply took away the power from him if it liked. All the Jedi ? Which Jedi are you talking about ? The living which don't care much about him after the events shown ? Or the people who have already died and remained as individuals within the force (Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon and Yoda could only do that for a limited amount of time, as told to Luke by Obi-Wan so that would mean -> Anakin Skywalker) ? And I guess, just because of that, the force and the Jedi are too busy to care about the spirits of Kun, Ragnos or the other ancient Sith on Korriban. Yup...seems to be allright...

OUCH !

1. And KJA failed to have his Sith emasure up in any way, fancy that!

2. 100 years. And considering Sidious had created an academy asnd a bastion of power there.

3. The Sith had changed and evolved line maybe?

4. 'The Lord of all Sith met the Master of all Jedi.'

5. Proof it lost power when Ragnos, sadow and Kressh died. Especially to the degree it did when Palpatine died. In fact, if anything, it was weakened by too many
6. Really now? How does it contradict at all? In fact, it supports it as instead of fightinh him, they expose him to the light instead of fighting him

7. Brand: Palpatine will die with me, he will never return...I, and all the ones who have come ebfore will make certain of that. Goodbye my friend."

Considering the spirits on Korriban and Kun were just whining little shadows who could be dismsised by Mara Jade...I, Jedi pretty much called Kun the definition of failure and he couldn't come up with a comeback except to call the kettle black

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. And KJA failed to have his Sith emasure up in any way, fancy that!

Would you please realize that you are the only person here thinking that this is the case ?

2. 100 years. And considering Sidious had created an academy asnd a bastion of power there.

Sidious created what there ? Everything being on that planet was there before Sidious. He just kept the planet a secret but he didn't built anything there.

3. The Sith had changed and evolved line maybe?

It doesn't say they are stronger. Nothing indicates they're stronger and that means they aren't. Period.

4. 'The Lord of all Sith met the Master of all Jedi.'

Wooohooo. The title "Dark Lord of the Sith" means "Lord of all Sith" in case you still don't understand that.

5. Proof it lost power when Ragnos, sadow and Kressh died. Especially to the degree it did when Palpatine died. In fact, if anything, it was weakened by too many

Stop that notorious BS. The Dark Side loses power with every Dark Side user who dies since those people basically generate Dark Side energies. So how would the Dark Side weaken the more users it has, huh ? It's funny how Bane is talking about that too much concurrence weakens the order (and therefore installs the rule of two) and you turn it into "too many Sith make the Dark Side weak".

6. Really now? How does it contradict at all? In fact, it supports it as instead of fightinh him, they expose him to the light instead of fighting him

He can't get destroyed by exposing him to the light because "the more light, the deeper the shadow gets". I don't know what you don't understand there.

7. Brand: Palpatine will die with me, he will never return...I, and all the ones who have come ebfore will make certain of that. Goodbye my friend."

And again: Contradiction. Qui-Gon discovered or rediscovered the ability to remain as an individual within the force at least nobody in the life time of Yoda could use it. And we know that people can only remain as an individual there for about 10 or 15 years - and not thousands of years. So the "ones that came before" would be limited to Yoda, Anakin and the Jedi that died between ROTJ and the final defeat of Sidious. Not that many, eh ?

Considering the spirits on Korriban and Kun were just whining little shadows who could be dismsised by Mara Jade...I, Jedi pretty much called Kun the definition of failure and he couldn't come up with a comeback except to call the kettle black

Blah, blah and blah. Look what Kun did and tell me he's the definition of failure. He turned Luke's students right under Luke's nose, manipulated, attacked and even killed one. So if Kun is the definition of failure, JA Luke who defeated your beloved Sidious is the definition of naivity.

Lightsnake, Kun was pretty much able to pwn Luke when he was a weakened spirit driven mad by four thousands years of isolation, it hardly speaks of him being "the definition of failure".

Pwn Luke? You mean 'suprised and double teamed him'

1. Your point being, Nai? Most everyone on TFN, Sw.com and MF share the Sidious view

2. No, he created academies of his own. Thule was long devastated.

3. Sith who couldn't be destroyed with war, Sith who couldn't be beaten....

4. With the descriptions of legions of Sith, legions of Jedi, etc...

5. Bane: "The Dark Side is spread too thin!" He said it should be embodied in one lord...then on Githany's suggestion, said 2....proof every dark lord's death weakens the DS

6. Try the entire force of the light at once. The evidence is right there and I posted it

7. Brand didn';t become a Force Ghost. He vanished into the Froce itself and eons of Jedi were described as holding Palpatine to the darkenss. Anakin, Yoda, Ulic, Arca, Vodo...Jedi don't have to become force ghosts to join the Force, everyone joins the Force....and proof it lasts for 10-15 years? Especially when you have a bastion of your power and the life force of thousands

1) Appeal to majority, logical fallacy.

Better watch yourself, I even caught that one.

Oh, come on...with Nai already throwing that out, and others on this boards...And by the way, IKC, you're not one to talk about fanboyism

Well, you could call me a Traya fangirl, except I don't believe that Traya could pwn all.

This from Leatherface's #1 fan, who argues that he can take Marka Ragnos, the man who ruled over the empire whose scraps Palpatine had to collect?

Glad you're so perceptive.

And I don't believe Sidious could pwn all. Throw Luke, Yoda, Mace, possibly current Kyp, Jacen, Ben Skywalker later on, arguably Marka...

Marka's one thing, I could fully understand him being raised to such great heights. He's easily one of the top two, but Exar Kun is QUITE another. Hell, I've seen Freedon Nadd's name thrown around as a power house.

Except that either Marka or Exar would step on every single individual you just named as Sidious' competition, but God forbid you believe that, oh no. You have to be a Sidious apologist and commit logical fallacies in the double digits in single paragraphs. Maybe that's why your responses have been little more than one-liners recently.