Exar Kun and Ulic versus Sidious and Dooku

You're confusing a move with a trump card....but yeah, using lightning right there could be considered a trump card.

So what are you defining as a "move"? Why is lightning not a move? Kun has that power innately, he can use it whenever he wishes. It's not like he has to strip down and go fisticuffs with Vodo.

2. He attacked Vodo with a weapon Vodo'd never seen before...I chalk some of this up to lazy animators though....it's about as ridiculous as the scale of the war itself.

Yes, Vodo had never seen the weapon before, but there's little evidence to suggest that the weapon itself was the reason that Vodo was destroyed, or that he could have survived if it wasn't for the weapon. He was taunted and then when he wouldn't join, was tooled.

3. Kalgrath is the giant Massassi ordered to the isolation chamber who later shows back up in the classic SW comic series. He later goes to Ziost to find his people and fails.

Kalgrath is not named in said TOTJ comic.

4. Yeah, what he did in TSW was genius....however he had no reason not to kill Aleema years before BEFORE Ragnos appeared and did the baptizing.

Because Ulic was there. By the time he finished up with Ulic, he had already met up with Ragnos.

5. Well, I can agree with you, but consider this: Palp should know Mace as the biggest threat, but doesn't finish him first OR use his considerable force power. Also, we know the tension between Mace and Palp and until Ani is shown arriving, Mace is seen pushing Mace back and even leads him to the window and is bested just before Anakin comes in....maybe this is all coincidental, but still...

That's very circumstantial. We see Mace push Sidious backwards during some parts of the fight as well. We see them saberlock, and then we see Mace kick the damn saber right out of his hand and knock Sidious down. Anakin didn't even show up until after that when he was already in the corner.

I will agree that he faked his weakness, but there's no evidence to suggest Mace didn't put him on his ass legitimately.

6. Ragnos is an eight or so feet tall mass of muscle, I'd put him against Durge in an arm wrestling contest...however, in the same passage, it describes Luke as momentously powerful-as well as earlier, we see him do some crazy stuff. He was wielding the power of the Force to an incredible degree and had his nephew and sister to fight for.

But that passage does not give any context or concurrence, so any inference that suggest Luke is physically as strong as Marka Ragnos doesn't seem to exist.

7. Remind me, which Tott feat was duplicated? Memory's a bit off....we've seen Tott show extreme mental prowess and saber skill...

He blocks the attacks of starships.

8. The reason is: Sidious never considered the Rebels worthy of his full power and kept most of his dark side powers away from the empire at whole...his alchemy was confined to Byss and he used it as a feeding ground. He thought the Rebels ants, pretty much and Thrawn notes Palpatine used Battle MEditation...he was also focused on Luke at the time...in DE, Palpatine uses his powers to help tear NR forces to pieces

Yes, he did tear up NR ships, I'm not doubting, but your hinging a lot on that one feat. In FotSE, it said Naga Sadow was close to victory on three planets, including Cinnagar and Coruscant. He had the Jedi on the ropes and tore up the ground forces and defenses with mostly tangible illusions. Is he proved weaker because he personally didn't fling force storms left and right? That's like saying Sidious is proved weaker because he didn't make illusions or blast holes in walls. He didn't use a force storm in a one on one situation against Luke, so why would he against Exar or Ulic?

The relevance isn't there.

9. Illustrious, for the final time: DE NEVER says the Ancient Empire was that old, a sourcebook did. A sourcebook later retconned this. And not a sourcebook: The official Chronology. That's a new source, too...and DE has been filled in as well.

The respective sourcebook for DE says the Sith were 2000 years old. DE never mentions the age of the Sith, so by omission, we use the next viable source -- the respective companion. The sourcebook was later retconned and thus we have no continuity. The statement "greatest of the sith" or whatever has been shown obsolete by process of new evidence.

Also, the official Chronology can only retcon TOTJ by saying the events did not happen, or that no ancient Sith existed. It can not retcon by omission.

10. Well, Nadd WOULD have come back better...and his ghost thing was way different than Kun's...Kun still wanted to run rampant throughout the cosmos. Not only that, he had a LOT on Yavin to focus on.

But there is no evidence on panel to suggest he was even a fraction of his innate power. Or else he would have run around blasting holes, freezing, instakilling, and tossing around force users with waves of his ionized air-particle arms. Even I, Jedi portray him as a weakened wraith. And like IKC said, this isn't a fight of 4000 year old spirits.

11. My point is, that Kun was still using Kyp AND surprising Luke as a ghost...and Corran noted that before being proven very, very wrong. I actually like Kun very much, he's one of my top favorite Sith. However, I've never seen him as incredibly powerful....he was definitely not your average ghost

Well you can have it two ways. Either he controlled (read, possessed) Kyp and used his power in a "double team," which is impressive because his spirit possessed another force user rather easily. Or he influenced Kyp, and had him use the force against Luke. Since Kyp was relatively inexperienced, I fail to see how this would do anything to 'demigod of the light" Luke, especially since he had his lightsaber ready. He nearly had his body separated, it's not like he had control the entire time.

Originally posted by Illustrious
So what are you defining as a "move"? Why is lightning not a move? Kun has that power innately, he can use it whenever he wishes. It's not like he has to strip down and go fisticuffs with Vodo.

Yes, Vodo had never seen the weapon before, but there's little evidence to suggest that the weapon itself was the reason that Vodo was destroyed, or that he could have survived if it wasn't for the weapon. He was taunted and then when he wouldn't join, was tooled.

Kalgrath is not named in said TOTJ comic.

Because Ulic was there. By the time he finished up with Ulic, he had already met up with Ragnos.

That's very circumstantial. We see Mace push Sidious backwards during some parts of the fight as well. We see them saberlock, and then we see Mace kick the damn saber right out of his hand and knock Sidious down. Anakin didn't even show up until after that when he was already in the corner.

I will agree that he faked his weakness, but there's no evidence to suggest Mace didn't put him on his ass legitimately.

But that passage does not give any context or concurrence, so any inference that suggest Luke is physically as strong as Marka Ragnos doesn't seem to exist.

He blocks the attacks of starships.

Yes, he did tear up NR ships, I'm not doubting, but your hinging a lot on that one feat. In FotSE, it said Naga Sadow was close to victory on three planets, including Cinnagar and Coruscant. He had the Jedi on the ropes and tore up the ground forces and defenses with mostly tangible illusions. Is he proved weaker because he personally didn't fling force storms left and right? That's like saying Sidious is proved weaker because he didn't make illusions or blast holes in walls. He didn't use a force storm in a one on one situation against Luke, so why would he against Exar or Ulic?

The relevance isn't there.

The respective sourcebook for DE says the Sith were 2000 years old. DE never mentions the age of the Sith, so by omission, we use the next viable source -- the respective companion. The sourcebook was later retconned and thus we have no continuity. The statement "greatest of the sith" or whatever has been shown obsolete by process of new evidence.

Also, the official Chronology can only retcon TOTJ by saying the events did not happen, or that no ancient Sith existed. It can not retcon by omission.

But there is no evidence on panel to suggest he was even a fraction of his innate power. Or else he would have run around blasting holes, freezing, instakilling, and tossing around force users with waves of his ionized air-particle arms. Even I, Jedi portray him as a weakened wraith. And like IKC said, this isn't a fight of 4000 year old spirits.

Well you can have it two ways. Either he [b]controlled (read, possessed) Kyp and used his power in a "double team," which is impressive because his spirit possessed another force user rather easily. Or he influenced Kyp, and had him use the force against Luke. Since Kyp was relatively inexperienced, I fail to see how this would do anything to 'demigod of the light" Luke, especially since he had his lightsaber ready. He nearly had his body separated, it's not like he had control the entire time. [/B]

1. Dooku besting Anakin in combat- not a trump card. Palpatine and Kun pulling out something suddenly to overwhelm an opponent that had not been used thus far and not simply due to pure skill= a trump card

2. One could make the case Vodo wasn't fighting to his best...fighting his old beloved student-who he was trying to turn from the DS, his final comments, etc.

3. Kalgrath is named in later material, though.

4. He had no reason to not blast Ulic to kingdom come....he DID come there to kill them.

5. No, but the entire scene was pretty much intended to be up to the viewer....there's evidence either way to support either theory. Personally, I think Mace got damn lucky.

6. Physically strong and force strength are VERY different things...though we've seen Luke casually use the force to crush strong crystals to powder.

7. Well, the force storm was described as the greatest weapon of the Sith and Palpatine's got quite a few other credentials in his belt. And he has devastated some walls-he tore a ship apart casually- and created illusions...

8. Illustrious, the DE SOURCEBOOK NEVER SAYS THE SITH EMPIRE WAS 2000 YEARS OLD, the ANCIENT SITH EMPIRE IS NEVER MENTIONED. The chronology certainly retconned elements of TOTJ, though.

9. Doing all that would negate the entire idea of Kun's plan and his sadism... he had the power of an entire race's energy and all the temple to focus on...like I said, Corran got his words thrown back in his face.

10. Luke never fights his students seriously, and in some cases has been ready to die than face them seriously....moreover, that little pure avatar of light thing isn't something to be done at will. Jacen in TUF for example

Respond to my posts, Lightsnake.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Dooku besting Anakin in combat- not a trump card. Palpatine and Kun pulling out something suddenly to overwhelm an opponent that had not been used thus far and not simply due to pure skill= a trump card

What ? Kun dominated the fight against Vodo. He even had time to step back, ignite the second blade, present it, ask Vodo about his opinion to that new modification and after that he starts fighting Vodo again. Notice how he doesn't even use the second blade - especially not to defeat Vodo finally. If he had pulled it out to surprise Vodo and get beyond the defence of the Jedi master, ok. But he didn't do it - he hardly used the blade from what you can see in the comic. So how is that a "trump card" ?

2. One could make the case Vodo wasn't fighting to his best...fighting his old beloved student-who he was trying to turn from the DS, his final comments, etc.

Yeah a person with ridiculous bias against the ancient Sith Lords could do that. And on the other handside one could make the case that Kun wasn't fighting to his best because he wanted to convert Vodo and not kill him, and still controlled the fight the entire time, and after he saw that Vodo can't be converted he simply crushed him without effort.

4. He had no reason to not blast Ulic to kingdom come....he DID come there to kill them.

He wanted to fight Ulic for the title "Dark Lord of the Sith". Why didn't Sadow blast Kressh to kingdom come ? Why didn't Ragnos blast Simus to kingdom come (or vice versa) ? Why didn't Sidious use his force storm on Luke and Leia ? Because they all couldn't ?
That would be a little bit lame since I don't see any reason why Ulic, Kressh or Simus would have a higher force defence than a 1000 year old Jedi Master who could cut people connection to the force off and fought against the Ancient Sith Lords. That limits the possibilities to: They didn't want to use instakill attacks on their opponents or some rules didn't allow that in fights for the title of the "Dark Lord".

5. No, but the entire scene was pretty much intended to be up to the viewer....there's evidence either way to support either theory. Personally, I think Mace got damn lucky.

What ? Lucas states that Mace overpowered Sidious and it was always intended that way. If anybody was "lucky" than Sidious because Mace didn't want to kill him before Sidious started using lightning on him because otherwise he had two chances in the fight to kill Sidious were Sidious didn't have any chance to defend himself (one time Mace had his saber up, ready to strike and Sidious saber was down on his side - one time Sidious got on his knees and Mace had his saber right behind Sidious head).
From the facts presented the only thing one can argue would be that Mace would have kicked Sidious worse when he had the intent to kill and not arrest him from the start of the fight on.

6. Physically strong and force strength are VERY different things...though we've seen Luke casually use the force to crush strong crystals to powder.

Well...the point is: If two people have equal strength in the force but one of them is physically stronger the one with more natural physical strength might be more powerful in terms of fighting. And considering Marka Ragnos physical strength (as he seems to be huge and packed with muskels - you put him on one level with Durge) he might be able to defeat whatever Luke has fought even without force powers (Vong, Slayers, even Shimrra). Now add his natural force potential and his toys.

7. Well, the force storm was described as the greatest weapon of the Sith and Palpatine's got quite a few other credentials in his belt. And he has devastated some walls-he tore a ship apart casually- and created illusions...

The point is that calling the force storm "the strongest weapon of the Sith" was done before other people (namely all Ancient Sith Lords) were invented. Nihilus drained an entire planet empty and basically the entire Jedi Order was present at that place and Nihilus himself belongs to the people that Kreia calls "children" compared to people like Ragnos.

8. Illustrious, the DE SOURCEBOOK NEVER SAYS THE SITH EMPIRE WAS 2000 YEARS OLD, the ANCIENT SITH EMPIRE IS NEVER MENTIONED. The chronology certainly retconned elements of TOTJ, though.

The point is that the chronology can't overwrite the actual sources and there is not a single source that tells us the Ancient Sith Empire was just present for 2,000 years were we have direct evidence that it must have been there longer. Why you simply refuse to understand that. If the Ancient Sith Empire was installed just 2,000 years before the Great Hyperspace War than please explain:

- how they didn't know about lightsabers (invented 2,000 years earlier)
- how all that tombs and burried Sith Lords happen to be on Korriban
- how they did have knowledge about the Star Forge (which was "lost" 18,000 years earlier)
- why Ajunta Pall has lost nearly all his memory in 3,000 years when people like Ragnos have all theirs 5,000 years after their death

And not that this would even matter at all. 21 Sith Lords per generation and thousands of lesser force users over 2000 years would still be able to invent a greater knowledge base than 2 Sith Lords per generation for 1000 years (after battle of Ruusan) and some Sith for the 1000 years before.

9. Doing all that would negate the entire idea of Kun's plan and his sadism... he had the power of an entire race's energy and all the temple to focus on...like I said, Corran got his words thrown back in his face.

You simply estimate that Kun had the power of an entire race (how many Massasi were present on Yavin 4, eh ?) when it's said the "power was drained by the ritual" but it nowhere tells us that it was "given to Kun's spirit". In fact that idea is pretty much contradicted by the facts that Kun hardly could talk to other people (as he said himself), isn't able to reproduce feats that he has shown when alive and wasn't able to leave the planet (as he had intended to).

10. Luke never fights his students seriously, and in some cases has been ready to die than face them seriously....moreover, that little pure avatar of light thing isn't something to be done at will. Jacen in TUF for example

That little "avatar of light" thing which is impossible at all, as I've told you before ? This can't be done "at will" ? So what do you want to tell us now ? That it just happens mysteriously when a person with Skywalker blood needs some power boost badly ?
That's still no explanation how Luke could fight Sidious alone but had his spirit removed from his body by 4,000 year old half mad spirit of Kun. I wonder why Sidious didn't do the same thing to Luke to posess his body instead of taking the body of new born Anakin.

1. Dooku besting Anakin in combat- not a trump card. Palpatine and Kun pulling out something suddenly to overwhelm an opponent that had not been used thus far and not simply due to pure skill= a trump card

He had the ability innately. It's not like he ran off to get a bigger weapon or he had outside interference. Now if a Massassi attacked him at this moment and distracted him, yes, that would be a "trump card." Otherwise, how is a trump card using a weapon you already had?

2. One could make the case Vodo wasn't fighting to his best...fighting his old beloved student-who he was trying to turn from the DS, his final comments, etc.

Neither did Kun. He was taunting him and trying to convert him. Then he casually steps back, ignites the other end of his lightsaber, gives a little spiel, and then without much effort, cleaves Vodo in two with ONE SIDE of his blade.

3. Kalgrath is named in later material, though.

But it's not proven to be that particular Massassi.

4. He had no reason to not blast Ulic to kingdom come....he DID come there to kill them.

Exar had not been crowned Dark Lord of the Sith, the entire fight was a lightsaber duel.

Yes, he did go there to kill them, he succeeded and took out a problematic cluster too. That's using your brain and you're chalking that up as a failure?

5. No, but the entire scene was pretty much intended to be up to the viewer....there's evidence either way to support either theory. Personally, I think Mace got damn lucky.

Both the novelization and the commentary mention how Mace overpowered Sidious. Sidious lost that fight, there's no concrete evidence to undermine the onpanel source. He did fake his weakness, but that doesn't mean he had the capability of beating Mace there. Remember, he had the advantage of suddenly leaping over the table and charging the Jedi, and Mace originally wanted to arrest him instead of kill him.

6. Physically strong and force strength are VERY different things...though we've seen Luke casually use the force to crush strong crystals to powder.

Ragnos' control of the force was "frightening," he made KotOR era people look like "children," and he was the most powerful of the most powerful of the golden age of Sith. What evidence do you have to suggest that his force strength isn't up there? He "dominated" over individuals who developed alchemy, magic, dark side force powers and techniques that made future generations of dark siders uber several times over. His passing made the force "tremble."

There's little evidence to suggest Marka Ragnos' force power wasn't way up there. Superior strength + Force Power > Mediocre physical strength + force power.

7. Well, the force storm was described as the greatest weapon of the Sith and Palpatine's got quite a few other credentials in his belt. And he has devastated some walls-he tore a ship apart casually- and created illusions...

Exar Kun also tore apart a ship rather casually. Freedon Nadd's spirit crushed Exar (as a Jedi) Kun's bones.

TAVION ripped up an entire temple with a few casual sweeps of Ragnos' scepter. Naga Sadow made an "invincible" army with illusions, nearly simultaneously taking the 3 planets he attacked, including Cinnagar and Coruscant. I'll give you the storm, but that alone doesn't suggest anything. Or Kreia killing 3 Jedi Masters with an instakill would make her one of the most godly individuals in the SW Universe.

8. Illustrious, the DE SOURCEBOOK NEVER SAYS THE SITH EMPIRE WAS 2000 YEARS OLD, the ANCIENT SITH EMPIRE IS NEVER MENTIONED. The chronology certainly retconned elements of TOTJ, though.

And the Sourcebook can not create canon, it can not overwrite prior canon. It completely omits and precedes the creation of the Ancient Sith 3 years later by KJA. Never once is Sidious given concurrence with them.

9. Doing all that would negate the entire idea of Kun's plan and his sadism... he had the power of an entire race's energy and all the temple to focus on...like I said, Corran got his words thrown back in his face.

Quantify this "entire race's energy" please. Tell me where it is mentioned that Kun gained all of that energy into his spirit.

Explain why Kun says himself he is weakened, and that he can barely even talk to others 4000 years later. There is no on-panel evidence to suggest that he is stronger.

10. Luke never fights his students seriously, and in some cases has been ready to die than face them seriously....moreover, that little pure avatar of light thing isn't something to be done at will. Jacen in TUF for example

So you're basically relegating the "avatar" as basic PIS? Then it's hardly admissible in a versus thread.

He would rather not fight his student seriously while the spirit of a sith lord is throwing around his other students? While he is getting separated from his body?

And like Nai already mentioned, he did not "surprise" Luke.

Originally posted by Borbarad
What ? Kun dominated the fight against Vodo. He even had time to step back, ignite the second blade, present it, ask Vodo about his opinion to that new modification and after that he starts fighting Vodo again. Notice how he doesn't even use the second blade - especially not to defeat Vodo finally. If he had pulled it out to surprise Vodo and get beyond the defence of the Jedi master, ok. But he didn't do it - he hardly used the blade from what you can see in the comic. So how is that a "trump card" ?

Yeah a person with ridiculous bias against the ancient Sith Lords could do that. And on the other handside one could make the case that Kun wasn't fighting to his best because he wanted to convert Vodo and not kill him, and still controlled the fight the entire time, and after he saw that Vodo can't be converted he simply crushed him without effort.

He wanted to fight Ulic for the title "Dark Lord of the Sith". Why didn't Sadow blast Kressh to kingdom come ? Why didn't Ragnos blast Simus to kingdom come (or vice versa) ? Why didn't Sidious use his force storm on Luke and Leia ? Because they all couldn't ?
That would be a little bit lame since I don't see any reason why Ulic, Kressh or Simus would have a higher force defence than a 1000 year old Jedi Master who could cut people connection to the force off and fought against the Ancient Sith Lords. That limits the possibilities to: They didn't want to use instakill attacks on their opponents or some rules didn't allow that in fights for the title of the "Dark Lord".

What ? Lucas states that Mace overpowered Sidious and it was always intended that way. If anybody was "lucky" than Sidious because Mace didn't want to kill him before Sidious started using lightning on him because otherwise he had two chances in the fight to kill Sidious were Sidious didn't have any chance to defend himself (one time Mace had his saber up, ready to strike and Sidious saber was down on his side - one time Sidious got on his knees and Mace had his saber right behind Sidious head).
From the [b]facts presented the only thing one can argue would be that Mace would have kicked Sidious worse when he had the intent to kill and not arrest him from the start of the fight on.

Well...the point is: If two people have equal strength in the force but one of them is physically stronger the one with more natural physical strength might be more powerful in terms of fighting. And considering Marka Ragnos physical strength (as he seems to be huge and packed with muskels - you put him on one level with Durge) he might be able to defeat whatever Luke has fought even without force powers (Vong, Slayers, even Shimrra). Now add his natural force potential and his toys.

The point is that calling the force storm "the strongest weapon of the Sith" was done before other people (namely all Ancient Sith Lords) were invented. Nihilus drained an entire planet empty and basically the entire Jedi Order was present at that place and Nihilus himself belongs to the people that Kreia calls "children" compared to people like Ragnos.

The point is that the chronology can't overwrite the actual sources and there is not a single source that tells us the Ancient Sith Empire was just present for 2,000 years were we have direct evidence that it must have been there longer. Why you simply refuse to understand that. If the Ancient Sith Empire was installed just 2,000 years before the Great Hyperspace War than please explain:

- how they didn't know about lightsabers (invented 2,000 years earlier)
- how all that tombs and burried Sith Lords happen to be on Korriban
- how they did have knowledge about the Star Forge (which was "lost" 18,000 years earlier)
- why Ajunta Pall has lost nearly all his memory in 3,000 years when people like Ragnos have all theirs 5,000 years after their death

And not that this would even matter at all. 21 Sith Lords per generation and thousands of lesser force users over 2000 years would still be able to invent a greater knowledge base than 2 Sith Lords per generation for 1000 years (after battle of Ruusan) and some Sith for the 1000 years before.

You simply estimate that Kun had the power of an entire race (how many Massasi were present on Yavin 4, eh ?) when it's said the "power was drained by the ritual" but it nowhere tells us that it was "given to Kun's spirit". In fact that idea is pretty much contradicted by the facts that Kun hardly could talk to other people (as he said himself), isn't able to reproduce feats that he has shown when alive and wasn't able to leave the planet (as he had intended to).

That little "avatar of light" thing which is impossible at all, as I've told you before ? This can't be done "at will" ? So what do you want to tell us now ? That it just happens mysteriously when a person with Skywalker blood needs some power boost badly ?
That's still no explanation how Luke could fight Sidious alone but had his spirit removed from his body by 4,000 year old half mad spirit of Kun. I wonder why Sidious didn't do the same thing to Luke to posess his body instead of taking the body of new born Anakin. [/B]

1. Right, because a Jedi master like Vodo would press the attack. We see them both exchanging blows when the fight starts. We see them deadlocked until Kun activates that second blade. What if Vodo was using a saber, now?

2. You mean bias against a group who can't be discussed without an entire argument of conjecture? And one could throw the case Vodo wasn't fighting to his best either because he tried to convert Kun back to the light.

3. Kun wanted to fight Ulic for the title? Ummm, nope, he wanted Ulic dead, that was it. We saw ODan Urr prove himself useless in the force. Just because he can use one technique-and doesn't when he should- and is ancient to the extreme...

4. Sorry: In Star Wars, there's no such thing as luck. And look how I twist the term 'overpowered'....he was overpowered at that point in time, nevermind he had a spare saber and was holding back.

5. Except the Chronology is a source: Tulak was a human lord who left after the Schism. The Sith later abandoned lightsabers over the 2000 years. Maybe all those dead Sith Lords were BURIED on Korriban. The Star Forge is a KOTOR error. And what's your point of Ajunta? It's been confirmed now he was pretty much one of the first Sith Lords-after that guy with the red armor.

6. How many Massassi were there? Based on how many we saw in that final scene LOTS. And yeah, he couldn't reproduce feats....we know Sidious could've stuck a knife in Anakin's back at any time, so why didn't he? Maybe because it interfered with his plans and wasn't smart at all? Maybe because Kun opted for a DIFFERENT APPROACH? The entire point of draining them was to empower his spirit and let it shed the chains of his spirit...and Kun was fought off by Luke, hence a loss of energy.

7. Sorry, Nai, not impossible. The Unifying Force, Dark Empire, Star By Star and Traitor disprove you. The times it works are unknown but seem to be of direst need. Ganner wasn't a Skywalker after all. See, your assumptions and theories take a back seat to what's written. Now, remind me where Kun fought Luke alone mano a mano and had the full fury of the force unleashed against him and wasn't written by an incompetent KJA?

Originally posted by Illustrious
He had the ability innately. It's not like he ran off to get a bigger weapon or he had outside interference. Now if a Massassi attacked him at this moment and distracted him, yes, that would be a "trump card." Otherwise, how is a trump card using a weapon you already had?

Neither did Kun. He was taunting him and trying to convert him. Then he casually steps back, ignites the other end of his lightsaber, gives a little spiel, and then without much effort, cleaves Vodo in two with ONE SIDE of his blade.

But it's not proven to be that particular Massassi.

Exar had not been crowned Dark Lord of the Sith, the entire fight was a lightsaber duel.

Yes, he did go there to kill them, he succeeded and took out a problematic cluster too. That's using your brain and you're chalking that up as a failure?

Both the novelization and the commentary mention how Mace overpowered Sidious. Sidious lost that fight, there's no concrete evidence to undermine the onpanel source. He did fake his weakness, but that doesn't mean he had the capability of beating Mace there. Remember, he had the advantage of suddenly leaping over the table and charging the Jedi, and Mace originally wanted to arrest him instead of kill him.

Ragnos' control of the force was "frightening," he made KotOR era people look like "children," and he was the most powerful of the most powerful of the golden age of Sith. What evidence do you have to suggest that his force strength isn't up there? He "dominated" over individuals who developed alchemy, magic, dark side force powers and techniques that made future generations of dark siders uber several times over. His passing made the force "tremble."

There's little evidence to suggest Marka Ragnos' force power wasn't way up there. Superior strength + Force Power > Mediocre physical strength + force power.

Exar Kun also tore apart a ship rather casually. Freedon Nadd's spirit crushed Exar (as a Jedi) Kun's bones.

TAVION ripped up an entire temple with a few casual sweeps of Ragnos' scepter. Naga Sadow made an "invincible" army with illusions, nearly simultaneously taking the 3 planets he attacked, including Cinnagar and Coruscant. I'll give you the storm, but that alone doesn't suggest anything. Or Kreia killing 3 Jedi Masters with an instakill would make her one of the most godly individuals in the SW Universe.

And the Sourcebook can not create canon, it can not overwrite prior canon. It completely omits and precedes the creation of the Ancient Sith 3 years later by KJA. Never once is Sidious given concurrence with them.

Quantify this "entire race's energy" please. Tell me where it is mentioned that Kun gained all of that energy into his spirit.

Explain why Kun says himself he is weakened, and that he can barely even talk to others 4000 years later. There is no on-panel evidence to suggest that he is stronger.

So you're basically relegating the "avatar" as basic PIS? Then it's hardly admissible in a versus thread.

He would rather not fight his student seriously while the spirit of a sith lord is throwing around his other students? While he is getting separated from his body?

And like Nai already mentioned, he did not "surprise" Luke.

1. So? An innate ability can still be a trump card...It's a resource to be used at the opportune moment.

2. And Vodo was ALSO trying to convert Exar...

3. Yes it was. How many huge, hulking Massassi were ordered by Kun to an isolation chamber?

4. All the Cron served was to damage Ossus, and it was four years AFTER he went to kill Aleema and Ulic. He had no idea of what would happen then and simply wanted Aleema and Ulic dead.

5. If anything the novelization supports the view as he loses only when Anakin arrives....and 'overpowered' is a tricky view. I've heard Rick McCallum said he had a spare saber on him at the time and 'overpowered' isn't the end all be all. Maul overpowered Obi-wan, for example.

6. Sidious's power over the force was described as terrifying and godlike as well, so? Sidious's passing weakened the dark side irrevecably. And the storm doesn't suggest anything? Honestly, it was only the greatest weapon of the Sith Lords and probably the greatest singular use of raw force power we've seen.

7. When'd Kun destroy a ship? And Nadd caused an avalanche, that's a bit different...Naga's illusions were based on deception and have been reeproduced VERY casually. We don't know the origins of that sceptre and we know Sith have often crafted items and presents for eachother. If the Ancient Sith didn't have access to massive caches of force items... We've seen Vader and Sidious both kill three strong Jedi masters in seconds, too

8. This is unfair: Why are sourcebooks unable to do things-and when they do, it's accepted in the community, used to explain things, cannonized later- but KOTOR, an XBOX game can be gospel? And Sidious is declared godlike as well, so strong in the dark side hat he makes war his weapon and fighting him can do nothing. It's said he mastered every aspect of the Force and that contradicts nothing of TOTJ.

9. The entire point of the ritual was meant to absorb the power of the MAssassi and free his spirit. And he gets weakened after he gets driven off by Luke.

10. Considering Luke was doubleteamed and surprised....yes, no matter WHAT the circumstances, Luke never fights his students seriously. He was ready to die rather than really fight Kueller and let Brakiss escape with the sad admission he failed to save him

Oh, for the record: Hethrir by the time of the Crystal Star had only himself and a small force...no dark jedi with him.

And Luke's damn strong when he uses the force. Crushes rocks and crystals to powder

Originally posted by Lightsnake
]1. Right, because a Jedi master like Vodo would press the attack. We see them both exchanging blows when the fight starts. We see them deadlocked until Kun activates that second blade. What if Vodo was using a saber, now?

A Jedi Master wouldn't press the attack ? Did you miss Yoda fighting in AotC and RotS ?
They are deadlocked ? How often do people have to post the scans until you can see what they show. Right before Kun activates the second blade Vodo is leaning towards Kun's saber with all his might while Kun simply stands there - holding his saber in one hand - then gets back from the fight, ignites the second blade, presents the weapon, talks about making the fight "more interresting", asks if Vodo likes the modification on his lightsaber and then outright pwns him.

And Vodo using a saber instead the stick that he had "made more powerful than a lightsaber" ? That would make a difference how exactly ?

2. You mean bias against a group who can't be discussed without an entire argument of conjecture? And one could throw the case Vodo wasn't fighting to his best either because he tried to convert Kun back to the light.

He tried to convert Kun back ? He just asks Kun once to stop his actions at the beginning of the fight than Kun goes on talking asking Vodo what the Jedi have to offer for him and what he has already done.

3. Kun wanted to fight Ulic for the title? Ummm, nope, he wanted Ulic dead, that was it. We saw ODan Urr prove himself useless in the force. Just because he can use one technique-and doesn't when he should- and is ancient to the extreme...

He wanted Ulic dead and he just didn't try to use the amulett on him for some mysterious reason. It doesn't cost him power and he can use it without recharge time. Why not try to use it against Ulic then ? Because he couldn't ? Or because he just didn't want to do it ?

And Odan is useless ? Yeah...he can use one technique and he tries to use it on Kun but it just fails. Does that make him weak especially because he mentioned just before how he used it sucessfully against some of the ancient Sith ? The point that it fails in that situation just indicates that Exar Kun is quite powerful and not that Odan is weak. And by the way: Is Yoda a weakling now because he's ancient and failed to kill Sidious ?

4. Sorry: In Star Wars, there's no such thing as luck. And look how I twist the term 'overpowered'....he was overpowered at that point in time, nevermind he had a spare saber and was holding back.

How does "overpowered" fit to "holding back" ? He wasn't holding back in the lightsaber fight. Mace defeated him fair and square. He wasn't holding back when he tried to kill Windu ("You will die."😉 since that was enough power to melt his face away either because it was redirected or he used so much power himself. So what do you want to tell us here ?

5. Except the Chronology is a source: Tulak was a human lord who left after the Schism. The Sith later abandoned lightsabers over the 2000 years. Maybe all those dead Sith Lords were BURIED on Korriban. The Star Forge is a KOTOR error. And what's your point of Ajunta? It's been confirmed now he was pretty much one of the first Sith Lords-after that guy with the red armor.

The chronology isn't a source which has the ability to overwrite the actual sources. If some story comes out telling Tulak Hord was a person with pure Sith blood the Chronology is overwritten.
They "abandoned" lightsabers later ? That's a nice explanation for Ajunta Pall using a Sith sword already when he was one of the first lords (who would surely waste his time training in a completely new weapon and pull the knowledge out of nowhere to make them more powerful than lightsabers) and it totally explains how the Sith simply "forgot" about lightsabers in 2,000 years.
The Star Forge is an KotoR error ? You talking about a game that credits your beloved Leeland Chee for helping with the story / continuity of the game ?
What my point about Ajunta is ? After - what you state - 3,000 years he's only a shadow of his former self, has lost a great part of his former memory where other people after more time passing (Ragnos, other ancient Sith Lords descriped in the comics) are still posessing all of the knowledge of their former selves.
And all the Sith Lords burried there ? Again: 21 people per generation (20 Sith Lords, 1 Dark Lord). Ragnos reigned for over a century. That still doesn't explain virtually hundrets of graves with almost everyone we've seen from the inside having more than one Sith Lord burried within them.

6. How many Massassi were there? Based on how many we saw in that final scene LOTS. And yeah, he couldn't reproduce feats....we know Sidious could've stuck a knife in Anakin's back at any time, so why didn't he? Maybe because it interfered with his plans and wasn't smart at all? Maybe because Kun opted for a DIFFERENT APPROACH? The entire point of draining them was to empower his spirit and let it shed the chains of his spirit...and Kun was fought off by Luke, hence a loss of energy.

How would Kun be able to use his amulets in form of a spirit ? So no...he couldn't have reproduced anything he did when he was alive. And Kun's goals:

a) make powerful force users join him
b) destroy Luke since he refuses to join him

Ok. Now why did he destroy people that were of no use for him because only having a low force potential (e.g. Tionne) and why didn't he use his former powers and try to get rid of Luke ? Because he just couldn't ? I mean...is there any reason for him to not go and destroy Luke's defenseless body personally if he could have done that ?

7. Sorry, Nai, not impossible. The Unifying Force, Dark Empire, Star By Star and Traitor disprove you. The times it works are unknown but seem to be of direst need. Ganner wasn't a Skywalker after all. See, your assumptions and theories take a back seat to what's written. Now, remind me where Kun fought Luke alone mano a mano and had the full fury of the force unleashed against him and wasn't written by an incompetent KJA?

First: So you still saying that this power can't directly be controlled making all people who were using it just weaker because you estimate that they possibly can't reproduce it when needed. Now how does that help you in your argument especialy when we have no Jedi involved in this fight here ?

Second: I love how you try to dodge points. Luke never fought Exar Kun mano a mano. At least not a living Kun. Kun's spirit controlling Kyp Durron (or Kun's spirit with a little help of Kyp Durron) just hovered in and just seperated Luke's spirit from his body.

Where did Sidious ever fought Luke alone mano a mano and had the full fury of the force unleashed against him, eh ? Sidious had the full fury of the force unleashed against him after Luke already defeated him in a lightsaber fight and not during the fight. Also it wasn't Luke alone but Luke, Leia and unborn Anakin.

The point is that DE Sidious couldn't defeat DE Luke in direct confrontation (neither with the force nor in lightsaber combat) where exactly that was done by Kun's half mad and 4,000 year old spirit. He bested Luke in a confrontation of force powers. So what exactly would Sidious do against Kun ? Try to fight him with a lightsaber ? He would get destroyed. Try to summon a force storm - something he never used directly against other force users - while Kun keeps blasting him with Sadow's amulet every second ?

Oh, for the record: Hethrir by the time of the Crystal Star had only himself and a small force...no dark jedi with him.

And realize how Luke doesn't even now about Hethrir in the Crystal Star since Hethris entire back story was just designed after it...

Originally posted by Borbarad
A Jedi Master wouldn't press the attack ? Did you miss Yoda fighting in AotC and RotS ?
They are deadlocked ? How often do people have to post the scans until you can see what they show. Right before Kun activates the second blade Vodo is leaning towards Kun's saber with all his might while Kun simply stands there - holding his saber in one hand - then gets back from the fight, ignites the second blade, presents the weapon, talks about making the fight "more interresting", asks if Vodo likes the modification on his lightsaber and then outright pwns him.

And Vodo using a saber instead the stick that he had "made more powerful than a lightsaber" ? That would make a difference how exactly ?

He tried to convert Kun back ? He just asks Kun once to stop his actions at the beginning of the fight than Kun goes on talking asking Vodo what the Jedi have to offer for him and what he has already done.

He wanted Ulic dead and he just didn't try to use the amulett on him for some mysterious reason. It doesn't cost him power and he can use it without recharge time. Why not try to use it against Ulic then ? Because he couldn't ? Or because he just didn't want to do it ?

And Odan is useless ? Yeah...he can use one technique and he tries to use it on Kun but it just fails. Does that make him weak especially because he mentioned just before how he used it sucessfully against some of the ancient Sith ? The point that it fails in that situation just indicates that Exar Kun is quite powerful and not that Odan is weak. And by the way: Is Yoda a weakling now because he's ancient and failed to kill Sidious ?

How does "overpowered" fit to "holding back" ? He wasn't holding back in the lightsaber fight. Mace defeated him fair and square. He wasn't holding back when he tried to kill Windu ("You will die."😉 since that was enough power to melt his face away either because it was redirected or he used so much power himself. So what do you want to tell us here ?

The chronology isn't a source which has the ability to overwrite the actual sources. If some story comes out telling Tulak Hord was a person with pure Sith blood the Chronology is overwritten.
They "abandoned" lightsabers later ? That's a nice explanation for Ajunta Pall using a Sith sword already when he was one of the first lords (who would surely waste his time training in a completely new weapon and pull the knowledge out of nowhere to make them more powerful than lightsabers) and it totally explains how the Sith simply "forgot" about lightsabers in 2,000 years.
The Star Forge is an KotoR error ? You talking about a game that credits your beloved Leeland Chee for helping with the story / continuity of the game ?
What my point about Ajunta is ? After - what you state - 3,000 years he's only a shadow of his former self, has lost a great part of his former memory where other people after more time passing (Ragnos, other ancient Sith Lords descriped in the comics) are still posessing all of the knowledge of their former selves.
And all the Sith Lords burried there ? Again: 21 people per generation (20 Sith Lords, 1 Dark Lord). Ragnos reigned for over a century. That still doesn't explain virtually hundrets of graves with almost everyone we've seen from the inside having more than one Sith Lord burried within them.

How would Kun be able to use his amulets in form of a spirit ? So no...he couldn't have reproduced anything he did when he was alive. And Kun's goals:

a) make powerful force users join him
b) destroy Luke since he refuses to join him

Ok. Now why did he destroy people that were of no use for him because only having a low force potential (e.g. Tionne) and why didn't he use his former powers and try to get rid of Luke ? Because he just couldn't ? I mean...is there any reason for him to not go and destroy Luke's defenseless body personally if he could have done that ?

First: So you still saying that this power can't directly be controlled making all people who were using it just weaker because you estimate that they possibly can't reproduce it when needed. Now how does that help you in your argument especialy when we have no Jedi involved in this fight here ?

Second: I love how you try to dodge points. Luke never fought Exar Kun mano a mano. At least not a living Kun. Kun's spirit controlling Kyp Durron (or Kun's spirit with a little help of Kyp Durron) just hovered in and just seperated Luke's spirit from his body.

Where did Sidious ever fought Luke alone mano a mano and had the full fury of the force unleashed against him, eh ? Sidious had the full fury of the force unleashed against him [b]after Luke already defeated him in a lightsaber fight and not during the fight. Also it wasn't Luke alone but Luke, Leia and unborn Anakin.

The point is that DE Sidious couldn't defeat DE Luke in direct confrontation (neither with the force nor in lightsaber combat) where exactly that was done by Kun's half mad and 4,000 year old spirit. He bested Luke in a confrontation of force powers. So what exactly would Sidious do against Kun ? Try to fight him with a lightsaber ? He would get destroyed. Try to summon a force storm - something he never used directly against other force users - while Kun keeps blasting him with Sadow's amulet every second ?

And realize how Luke doesn't even now about Hethrir in the Crystal Star since Hethris entire back story was just designed after it... [/B]

1. Yoda was more than willing to allow Dooku to recover and Sidious was a very special case. Kyle Katarn allowing Jerec his chance, and Luke numerous times are different stories. And interesting how you can tell how Kun is just standing there, considering he's NOT EVEN SHOWN in the same frame until the stick breaks.

2. So? He tells him to stop what he's doing, telling him to come back...that's conversion attempts.

3. Really now? Or maybe it worked for THAT particular place? He used it on Aleema and noticeably didn't kill her. When he fights force sensitive warriors worth their salt with it and kills them with it, then it'll count more.

4. Proof he tries that technique on Kun because it's NOTHING like what happened Odan threw Kun back with. Proof he succeeded against the Ancient Sith, I recall him being totally worthless, and considering the Ancients entire leadership were destroyed...

5. Love how you refuse to even consider the possibilities Sidious faked the lighning completely as he only tries it when Windu makes it clear he'll arrest him. The lightning never has that affect on others, was declared an obvious fake, Palpatine displays no ill effect and Lucas says it was the dark side exertion withering his face. Which changes his eyes and teeth. Of course, there's no way for your position to explain that, so it'd be ignored. And overpowered isn't a permanent example. We know Palp had a lot of force power BEYOND lightning and a spare saber.

6. Translation: I don't like the retcons so they don't count! Ajunta was having serious psychological problems if you missed that. The chronology won't be overwritten because it laid down the law and overwrites the sourcebooks. And Ajunta favored the Sith Sword...so did the Dark Underlord in a time when sabers were plentiful, so?

7. Great how Kun fails to influence the students, is trapped by padawans and fails to destroy Luke's body. Great how he was double teaming Luke

8. and Luke was weak, right...Which was why his duel with Palpatine was declared the greatest fight in history. And I've posted the part where Luke and Leia used the full force of the Force on Palpatine, you refusing to accept it doesn't make it less true. If Kun didn't fail to defeat Luke, destroy his body and didn't double team him, maybe that victory'd mean more. Leia and baby Anakin weren't involved until the Force storm. And on Luke and Palp:

Flash! as they turned in air, Flash! went their 'sabers there. Never before and never again in all of history had there been or would there be a battle such as this. Even now – as they flashed and turned and struck and clashed – echoes of their struggle could be felt all throughout the universe. They were as opposing divinities, as different as night and day.

9. Yeah, like exar would use his amulets off the bat. He'd probably fail to do that for some 'mysterious reason' and be obliterated. Palpatine uses a force storm for transportation, he can easily tear Kun apart with it or the thousands of other techniques he knows. What part of 'He'd mastered every aspect of the Force' was hard to understand?

1. So? An innate ability can still be a trump card...It's a resource to be used at the opportune moment.

So you're basically saying you decide when it's a trump card or not? Great.

2. And Vodo was ALSO trying to convert Exar...

And who won easily when they got serious?

3. Yes it was. How many huge, hulking Massassi were ordered by Kun to an isolation chamber?

How many huge, floating balls of death did Sidious make?

Circumstantial. Unless you can prove that massassi was the exact same, the point is moot. The evidence seems contrary to it, considering Kun ordered ALL Massassi into the temples.

4. All the Cron served was to damage Ossus, and it was four years AFTER he went to kill Aleema and Ulic. He had no idea of what would happen then and simply wanted Aleema and Ulic dead.

Don't ignore the circumstances. Getting coronated in the dark side by Ragnos does tend to change things. And are you attempting to argue that Exar couldn't kill Aleema? Point?

5. If anything the novelization supports the view as he loses only when Anakin arrives....and 'overpowered' is a tricky view. I've heard Rick McCallum said he had a spare saber on him at the time and 'overpowered' isn't the end all be all. Maul overpowered Obi-wan, for example.

Yes, and Maul > TPM Obi-Wan with a saber. Do you see anyone arguing th at Sidious came away better from that fight than Mace? No. They are arguing that he didn't beat him and is not superior to him.

6. Sidious's power over the force was described as terrifying and godlike as well, so? Sidious's passing weakened the dark side irrevecably. And the storm doesn't suggest anything? Honestly, it was only the greatest weapon of the Sith Lords and probably the greatest singular use of raw force power we've seen.

So that's the end all of that debate? Did Sidious "dominate" over other "godlike" foes? Was his strength and force ability so terrifying that others described the present day Jedi as children to him?

The second part? Subjective. Since when was it stated the greatest "singular use of the ability"? Bane used it too. Jacen's feat at the end of NJO is just as impressive. The entire point is that the storm does not indicate he can beat them in a duel.

In fact, he was beaten by an largely UNTRAINED farmboy. Both Exar and Ulic were well-trained prodigies.

7. When'd Kun destroy a ship? And Nadd caused an avalanche, that's a bit different...Naga's illusions were based on deception and have been reeproduced VERY casually. We don't know the origins of that sceptre and we know Sith have often crafted items and presents for eachother. If the Ancient Sith didn't have access to massive caches of force items... We've seen Vader and Sidious both kill three strong Jedi masters in seconds, top

Wow, don't be daft. They sure didn't walk into a room, and cast an instakill and boom, they're dead. And it's certainly questionable which "three strong Jedi masters" Vader killed "in seconds."

Naga's feat was often duplicated easily? Is that why his "invincible" army was close to capturing three cities, including the capital of the Republic and Empress Teta's empire? I have yet to see any illusionary feat on par, sorry. He singularly manipulated entire ships, thousands of drop pods, and thousands, likely millions, of forces that fooled even the Jedi.

8. This is unfair: Why are sourcebooks unable to do things-and when they do, it's accepted in the community, used to explain things, cannonized later- but KOTOR, an XBOX game can be gospel? And Sidious is declared godlike as well, so strong in the dark side hat he makes war his weapon and fighting him can do nothing. It's said he mastered every aspect of the Force and that contradicts nothing of TOTJ. [/qutoe]

When it's caonized later, tell me.

KotOR storylines are C-canon. If they weren't, Malak would have never made it into the databank.

And how does that statement indicate that he is godlike? Naga Sadow made war his weapon too. Sidious was the damn Emperor, obviously he had more resourcse th an any sith before him.

[quote]9. The entire point of the ritual was meant to absorb the power of the MAssassi and free his spirit. And he gets weakened after he gets driven off by Luke.

Is that why he says he is weakened, he can barely talk, and he is unable to perform the feats his living body has?

Stop dodging the question.

10. Considering Luke was doubleteamed and surprised....yes, no matter WHAT the circumstances, Luke never fights his students seriously. He was ready to die rather than really fight Kueller and let Brakiss escape with the sad admission he failed to save him

Show me the quote that says Luke never fights his students seriously? Show me where he was surprised. HE HAD HIS LIGHTSABER OUT AND WAS LOOKING AT HIM.

By that logic, Sidious surprised the 4 Jedi to arrest him, and Mace still put him on his ass.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Yoda was more than willing to allow Dooku to recover and Sidious was a very special case. Kyle Katarn allowing Jerec his chance, and Luke numerous times are different stories. And interesting how you can tell how Kun is just standing there, considering he's NOT EVEN SHOWN in the same frame until the stick breaks.

Yoda allowed Dooku to recover ? Did you just miss how Dooku dropped that huge metal part on Obi-Wan and Anakin and Yoda had to save them ? Kyle Katarn allowing Jerec his chance (after destroying 7 Dark Jedi without leaving them a chance - why not mentioning Tavion instead...meh...). And Luke. Did you just miss how this is everytime dealing with already beaten or less powerful opponents ?

And Kun is not shown in the frame ? Do you have the comics even ? Are you just blind or what ?

First picture and second picture: You can see Vodo leaning against Exar's blade and you can see that he's just holding it with one hand. Then he somehow gets away from the fight to ingnite his second blade. So what do want to argue here, eh ?

2. So? He tells him to stop what he's doing, telling him to come back...that's conversion attempts.

Attempts ? He just talks to him at the beginning of the fight and right before the end while Kun preaches to Vodo through the entire fight. So who wasn't fighting "to his best" there ? Vodo who keeps silent or Kun who talks through the entire fight. I wonder...

3. Really now? Or maybe it worked for THAT particular place? He used it on Aleema and noticeably didn't kill her. When he fights force sensitive warriors worth their salt with it and kills them with it, then it'll count more.

What ? We have seen him using the amulet blasting through walls and a massive beast. We have seen how he killed Nadd's spirit using it and he killed Odan Urr using it but all over a sudden it's a useless piece of metal just placed on his hands ?
The point is that he didn't even try to use it against Ulic and in the two situations (against Sylvar and Aleema) where he used it he didn't care if he kills or not. Since the amulet feets on his anger (emotions) the blasts might be weaker when he is simply careless.

4. Proof he tries that technique on Kun because it's NOTHING like what happened Odan threw Kun back with. Proof he succeeded against the Ancient Sith, I recall him being totally worthless, and considering the Ancients entire leadership were destroyed...

Again. How often do people throw the comics add you before you accept what it's said. The narrator says that he "drawns on the bright power - as he tried to teach Nomi Sunrider" and what he tried to teach Nomi just before was cutting people's connection to the force off and he mentioned that he learned that "during the fight against the ancient Sith". What is so hard to understand there for you ?

5. Love how you refuse to even consider the possibilities Sidious faked the lighning completely as he only tries it when Windu makes it clear he'll arrest him. The lightning never has that affect on others, was declared an obvious fake, Palpatine displays no ill effect and Lucas says it was the dark side exertion withering his face. Which changes his eyes and teeth. Of course, there's no way for your position to explain that, so it'd be ignored. And overpowered isn't a permanent example. We know Palp had a lot of force power BEYOND lightning and a spare saber.

Are you just that dumb ? It's unbelieveable. You state yourself that the exertion in the dark side makes Sidious face melt while he's using lightning on Mace and just one sentence before that you try to tell us that he faked the lightning. How can you ignore that when the power was strong enough to melt Sidious face away he can't have used some "weak" version ? Really...

6. Translation: I don't like the retcons so they don't count! Ajunta was having serious psychological problems if you missed that. The chronology won't be overwritten because it laid down the law and overwrites the sourcebooks. And Ajunta favored the Sith Sword...so did the Dark Underlord in a time when sabers were plentiful, so?

Translation: If there is no source stating anything the Chronology isn't allow to retcon something since it can't overwrite the actual sources and that's not "sourcebooks" but KotoR, TOTJ and so on. And Ajunta favored the Sith Sword ? You're trying to tell me that somebody would prefer a weapon which is not only less powerful compared to his previous weapon but he also had virtually no training using over a weapon that he trained with for his entire life ?

7. Great how Kun fails to influence the students, is trapped by padawans and fails to destroy Luke's body. Great how he was double teaming Luke

Great how that's the Kun that you assume to be more powerful than his living self despite the fact that he walked around on Ossus turning Jedi. And it's nice how one of Luke's students attacked Luke because Kun "failed to influence" them, another (controlled or assisted by Kun) ripped Luke's spirit from his body and another one nearly killed Luke because Kun controlled him in his dreams. And it's also nice how you fail to realize that the Padawans didn't "trap" Kun and how he didn't double team Luke because he was controlling Kyp.

Any more bias against Kun you want to serve us, fanboy ? It's getting annoying.

8. and Luke was weak, right...Which was why his duel with Palpatine was declared the greatest fight in history.

Before any other fight did even exist. If tomorrow the world is destroyed by a nuclear war would the second World War still be the greatest war the world has ever seen ?

And I've posted the part where Luke and Leia used the full force of the Force on Palpatine, you refusing to accept it doesn't make it less true.

Your desperate attempts to use hyperbole as argument and fail to realize it's hyperbole doesn't make it less hyperbole. Got it ?

If Kun didn't fail to defeat Luke, destroy his body and didn't double team him, maybe that victory'd mean more. Leia and baby Anakin weren't involved until the Force storm. And on Luke and Palp:

Flash! as they turned in air, Flash! went their 'sabers there. Never before and never again in all of history had there been or would there be a battle such as this. Even now – as they flashed and turned and struck and clashed – echoes of their struggle could be felt all throughout the universe. They were as opposing divinities, as different as night and day.

Have I just missed the "And Luke used the entirety of the force against Palpatine" in the passage there or did you just make that one up again.

9. Yeah, like exar would use his amulets off the bat. He'd probably fail to do that for some 'mysterious reason' and be obliterated.

You mean like Exar couldn't use his amulets any longer because he was a spirit ?

Palpatine uses a force storm for transportation, he can easily tear Kun apart with it or the thousands of other techniques he knows. What part of 'He'd mastered every aspect of the Force' was hard to understand?

What is so hard to understand in the point that he can't have mastered every aspect of the force because:
a) He stated himself that he couldn't access the Jedi Holocrons
b) Some groups of force users - like the Falanassi - did hide away from him and he never had access to their ways of using the force.

Therefore this statement is clearly hyperbole so stop using it as an argument.

Lightsnake, respond to my posts.

Originally posted by IKC
Lightsnake, respond to my posts.

I would like to see that too.

He avoids them cause he doesn't know. (YES, I AM CAPTAIN OBVIOUS!!)

Kun would take Sidious down. I believe Dooku and Ulic would stalemate but then you add Kun and Dooku is gone.