Exar Kun and Ulic versus Sidious and Dooku

Started by Lightsnake10 pages

He had spent decades devoted to meditation and study, immersing himself in the secrets and lore of a thousand worlds and a thousand cults, secluded in his monasteries and libraries. He had made pilgrimages to Korriban, to Dromund Kaas, the Ziost, to Had Abbadon, to Arkania, to Apollyon, to Cos. He had mastered the great power in all its guises – the Force, the sublime Eternity, the All, the Great Unity, the Tyia, the Quwa Akhrín, the White Current – and in all its traditions – the Sith Lords, the Jedi Knights, the Krath Society, the Nightsisters of Dathomir, the Heresiarch Congregation, the Shamans of the Jarvashqiine, the Intisharim. He had learned the esoteric martial arts of Teräs Käsi and Yad Hadíd; he had mastered the forms and styles of the lightsaber. He knew the secrets of Quey'tek and the Doppelgänger, Malacia and Mortichro, Mechu Duru and Lilakhrin, and countless more. He was deeply immersed in the thousands of years of traditions from thousands of cults and sects. He was a specter of the past – a phantom menace – the revenge of the Sith.

There was Luke Skywalker, the simple farmboy from a backwater desert world, the guardian of the light side of the Force, with all his awe-inspiring power at its fullest. He was a beacon of honesty and generosity, willing to lay down his own life to save those of his friends. He had come from a planet with two suns into a galaxy lost in darkness, bringing with him a new hope for freedom. He had destroyed the Death Star and saved the brave Rebellion against the tyrannical rule of the evil Empire; he had redeemed the soul of a mighty Dark Lord of the Sith and shattered the Emperor's iron grip on the galaxy. The peoples the galaxy had been drowning in the eternal darkness of the Sith's reign, and he had brought them light.

He had only learned of the Force as a young man; his formal training had been cut short by the deaths of both his Masters. He had found few scraps of the lost traditions of the Jedi Knights; he had searched in vain for the knowledge of that noble order whose light the Dark Lord of the Sith had tried to extinguish. He had found little in the empty halls of the Jedi Temple and the wreck of the Chu'unthor, never even been to the few abandoned praxeums and libraries that still remained. He had not been instructed in the philosophies of the Jedi scribes, nor did he know their formalized techniques and disciplines and rubrics; he wielded his power in an unconscious and completely instinctive way. He did not speak High Galactic, had not been trained in the ways of the Jedi Knight's blade; he knew none of the forms, only using the Force to guide his hand. He did not know the histories and traditions of the cults of the Force that the Sith Lords and their Empire had eradicated. He had few ties to the history of the Jedi and their Order, fewer still to the countless other traditions and cults and sects. He was a vision of the future – a new hope – the return of the Jedi.

The one could never tolerate the existence of the other.

The Emperor had sought to convert the humble farmboy, to turn him to the dark side of the Force; not even his rejection of the dark side could turn the Sith Lord's thoughts away from him. The Sith Lord could not abide the Jedi Knight, could not simply destroy him. He needed to turn him, to destroy his will, to dominate his very soul. He needed to break him, to tear him apart and remake him in his own image. For his great weakness was his narcissism, his malignant and twisted self-love. To be rejected, to be challenged, to be defeated was unthinkable.

The humble farmboy had sought to defeat the darkness within his father, and within the malevolent Emperor who had seduced him and destroyed the goodness in him, the Emperor who was full of lies and was the father of lies. He had chosen to die rather than to become like him; yet he knew that he alone could ever hope to challenge the great and terrible Dark Lord of the Sith. He had risked everything to learn the secrets of the Sith, to gain from his enemy the strength he needed to destroy him forever. To stand by, to look on, to allow his existence was intolerable.

And so there they were, Palpatine the Undying and Luke Skywalker, the twin and opposing demigods. The swirl of their light and darkness was terrifying, a river of power that threatened to sweep away all around it. Luke's vast courage could never hope to overcome the Emperor's vast power; yet the Emperor's egotistical self-love could never hope to match Luke's altruistic self-sacrifice. They battled with more than just their lightsabers; they battled with their whole selves, mind, body, and soul. It was a battle between the Sith Lord who ruled and the Jedi Knight who served; the narcissist who exploited and abused and the philanthropist who defended and comforted; the darkness that chilled and the light that warmed; the abyss that consumed and the love that begot. It was a battle between the darkest evil and the purest good.

Waves of power and emotion poured off of the peerless antagonists, sending shudders through the vast warship from stem to stern. The overwhelming atmosphere of the battle struck the crew almost instantly; some collapsed at their battle stations, insensate and traumatized, while others fell dead where they stood. All throughout the galaxy those who were sensitive to the Force could feel the violence of the clash of titans, could feel the intensity of the test of wills.

----

You were saying, Kun boy? Hey, if that's not enough:

He was the Master of the dark side, the Lord of all it offered. War itself had become his weapon, his tool; he had defeated the Jedi because they'd failed to realize that they lost the moment they began fighting him. Their greatest warriors became his pawns, their most noble struggles fuel for his power. And as Yoda himself had fought him with all his power, he had not realized that he only fed the insatiable hunger of the dark side – the insatiable hunger of the Sith.

And yet these two – these three – had not fought him. They had not used the Force to crush him, to sweep him aside – but to heal him, to protect him. When he had plunged himself into the very depths of the dark side, they had used the light to reach down and pull him out.

They had exposed him to the light for the barest of instants.

And that was far too long for the Galactic Emperor.

The Force storm beyond had been summoned from the Emperor's soul, formed of his rage and his will and hurled upon his enemies – his implacable wrath given form. And now as the dark side fled him, his will no longer drove the raw destruction he had unleashed. His power overreached, his rage lost cohesion – and the unfathomable force he had unleashed and driven lost direction. No longer was his rage driven outward, and so the cataclysmic storm did the only thing it could –

It returned to its maker.

All the Galactic Emperor's godlike power – the incomprehensible fury of his Force storm – uncontrolled and uncontrollable, rushed back into his soul, and not even that abyss could hold it. No longer could he control the darkness. His power was too great, too massive – it filled him until he could hold no more, and even then it pressed on – his great power grew greater and greater, filling him beyond limit – until reality itself bent, and it all collapsed inward. In a moment of exquisite agony – agony beyond words, beyond description – agony that no living being had ever felt before, or ever would again – he became in fact what he had always been in spirit:

A black hole of the Force.

At that moment, all that was Palpatine the Undying – all that was Palpatine the Emperor – dissolved into nothing at all.

And with that, the mighty Emperor – the deathless Emperor – the invincible Emperor – conquered himself.

1) Query: How in God's name would Kun's body have been burned to death when the wildfire raging inside could not possibly have gone into a stone temple?

Answer: It couldn't.

Secondly, the ritual was designed to free his spirit, fool.

2) And it's exactly what they tried and it worked, in a different way, trapping him on the moon rather than merely blind and deaf to the Force in his body.

3) The second we use a Wiki article in debates, I'll let you know. Point 8, above.

4) Indeed, and this would lead a person led by logic and reason to believe that he couldn't because his spirit is weaker than his physical body.

5) The Chosen One was created to destroy the sith, not Palpatine specifically. With EU, that becomes a moot plotline.

Lying fanboys can't save Sidious.

Originally posted by IKC
1) I call it Kun toying with Vodo as has been maintained all along.

You've no proof that the battle was a stalemate. Your use of calling his weapon a "trump card" is blatant bias designed to diminish his accomplishment. You lose. QED.

2) Everyone who vanishes is not shown to mystically "prepare" death. You have no idea what is involved in such a ritual and you claimed that because Vodo disappeared then he must have given up. Finally though you admit that he did not. It took you long enough. QED.

3) Nor can you offer a solid alternative as to who the de facto Grandmaster of the order is. The best choice is Vodo.

4) Are you really so dense? I'll emphasize for you: The war against the Sith continued past the events depicted in FotSE. Unless you actually think that all the Republic and Jedi did was destroy the invading force and chase tham once to the battle in which Ludo participated and then just left the entirety of the Sith Empire unmolested. You would think this despite the fact that dialogue and narration shows that the combined Republic and Jedi forces continued into the old Empire and smashed it, "hunting the Sith to extinction" as described by one of the participants, Odan-Urr.

Your fanboy bias knows no bounds.

5) Yes, good.

6) No, a trump card is a ridiculous term you like to bandy about to make Kun's accomplishment seem trivial. My use of it in a similar context was mocking your use of it.

7) No, Vodo tells Kun that he is not ready to learn things of the Dark Side and that he wishes Kun would focus on things he choosed to teach him. And it didn't take only Vodo and Nomi to bring down Ulic. The other Jedi, including Cay, Tott Doneeta, Qrrl Toq, Shoanes Culu, Sylvar, and Dace Diath "add their powers to cement a temporary wall of light, imprisoning Ulic."

That's seven knights, plus the de facto Grandmaster.

8)

That's a big f'in massassi. Since all the massassi gathered at the temple to sacrifice themselves, he must have been there as well.

As well, it seems that Kun changes his mind midway through the first scan. This is indicated by a "but."

9) Uh huh. And where is she shown capable of restraining Ulic by herself, anyway? It's not shown... anywhere in DLotS or TSW.

10) Actually, he calls the single amulet to himself because he's finally embraced the Dark Side. And the creature Kun killed (by himself) wasn't necessarily a leviathan. For one, it doesn't resemble a Leviathan nor is it named in the comic.

Kun obviously didn't need to use his amulet against Vodo, since he was clearly able to pwn him in a melee battle after surmising that Vodo wouldn't join him. As for Ulic, you cannot just assume that Kun wouldn have just resorted to blasting him, especially since the fight was interrupted.

This is a lie. Kun states, "My hand... the flesh is burned! But I feel no pain!" And then, immediately afterwards, we have a nice big close-up of that very same hand.

Ooh, how hideously burned. Unlike Sidious, Kun doesn't melt himself with his own techniques.

Nonsense. It wasn't a simple decision that he didn't want to deal with Sylvar (how is this relevant, by the way?). She had been beneath him since he first embraced the Dark Side, as is evidenced by when the omniscient narrator states that "the cathar woman is no longer of any consequence to him."

If by "deal with her" you mean "absolutely pwn her in one hit."

11) Indeed, great for us absolutely trashing your assertion. It seems to be the running trend for the past week or so.

12) Uh. Who said Luke was uber? Well, considering that he is, according to you, the only person who can take DE Sidious, whom you seem to place above everyone else in Star Wars...

And yes, he did, in comparison to PT-and-earlier Force Users, suck. He's just fortunate in that almost everyone else sucked too.

Oh, I remember that you claimed that because Luke could use the Force to block blasts from vehicles then this makes him powerful.

Well. Is Tott "Small Fry" Doneeta a Force god, now?

13) Right. Vague "Sith techniques" that people suggest other people try. My query: Where is this relevant?

I note you're unable to prove that choke is nothing more than simple telekinesis. Chalk up another one!

14) Nonsense. Kun's knowledge is not limited to Sadow. The man has been to both Nadd's tomb and Korriban, and since absence of proof isn't proof of absence, has recovered knowledge from both places. Especially since Korriban was, at the time, relatively unplundered.

Your word is all we have to go on for Nadd... doesn't look good, I'd say. And it's quite a lot better if an actual story, rather than a reference guide, tells us what happened. References guides are notorious for glossing things over and fudging facts.

15) Indeed. So if he had them and didn't use them, he's a moron. They boost one's power and allows one to focus the Force beyond what one could achieve normally. What a low-watt bulb Sidious must be, then, for not using them.

16) Odan was capable obviously since he's done it before. However, either Kun knows of a technique to resist it or, more likely, Kun is so much more powerful than Odan that he was able to resist it with simple force. Either way, Kun pwned Odan.

You'd put a jarred head, a pair of practically unknown Sith Lords whom I speculate weren't even alive during Marka's reign, and Ludo Kressh over Naga Sadow? Naga Sadow whose power is described as "titanic in comparison to later Jedi?" Naga Sadow who only had to contend with Kressh to be heir apparent to Marka?

I'm glad you have such deductive reasoning.

17) No mention of how Luke was only a handful of years beyond his ROTJ days, when he still treated his lightsaber as a baseball bat yet was able to slice off Sidious' hand. No mention of how the relatively-untrained Luke combined with Leia and Anakin "assisting" was able to push Sidious' own force storm on him. Wow, that Sidious has such a great command over his technique, a neophyte turned it around on him!

A man put on his ass by and scurrying away from Mace Windu, someone who would've been tooled by Exar Kun in a saber fight. And if you want to compare saber careers...

Sidious: Ass handed to him by Windu.

Hand cut off by Luke.

Kun: As a padawan, beats Crado with ease.

Gets clawed by Sylvar when she gives in to anger, but is interrupted in his angry counterattack by Vodo.

Is put on his ass by Vodo, but calls his fallen saber to him and beats Vodo back, breaking his staff which is described by the omniscient narrator as "more powerful than Exar Kun's lightsaber!"

After embracing the Dark Side, stalemates Ulic Qel-Droma, a fellow prodigy in a pure saber duel but is interrupted before the fight could conclude.

As Dark Lord, destroys his former master decisively, and begins to duel Ood before a massassi interrupts.

I'd say Kun's lightsaber career is far more illustrious.

Absence of proof isn't proof of absence, Lightsnake. To claim that Vodo wasn't adept in combat is ridiculous: pride is not a Jedi trait, yet Vodo believed himself so proficient that he confronted the Dark Lord of the Sith armed with a stick.

Using your logic, if Sidious were so powerful, he wouldn't have needed Vader to storm the Jedi Temple or to assassinate the Seperatists on Mustafar. He wouldn't have needed to send Maul to kill the Jedi protecting Amidala and kill her as well. If Sidious were so powerful, he wouldn't have sent a servant to deal with Ood.

What's that? Your logic is extremely flawed and one-sided? Yes, that's a point we've been making since you first started spouting nonsense.

Kun is clearly able to kill powerful Force users with a wave of his hand. There's your evidence.

There's no mention of how Ood's body was torn up by the supernova holocaust that seared Ossus' surface and how he was stuck to one spot for 4000 years. If you'll remember, burning and loss of one's physical body reduces one's power in the force, evidenced by Anakin/Darth Vader.

Continued...

Originally posted by IKC
Perhaps you've forgotten what this fleet consisted of. I'll remind you.




All of the freaking Jedi in the Galaxy. Do you actually think a Force attack from one man, no matter how powerful, could do squat to them? I submit that even Ragnos would've been doomed in that situation.

It's hyperbole at best to call that simple screaming. He was, after all, trying to get Ulic's attention.

But I'll play by your logic and say that the minute Sidious shows himself capable of pwning ancient Jedi masters on the same level as those during the Sith War, then he might be able to compete. His track record isn't off to a great start.

Illustrious has done a fine enough job making your ridiculous assertions from the DE Sourcebook irrelevant.

Lying fanboys can't save Sidious.

Originally posted by IKC
1) Query: How in God's name would Kun's body have been burned to death when the wildfire raging inside could not possibly have gone into a stone temple?

Answer: It couldn't.

Secondly, the ritual was designed to free his spirit, fool.

2) And it's exactly what they tried and it worked, in a different way, trapping him on the moon rather than merely blind and deaf to the Force in his body.

3) The second we use a Wiki article in debates, I'll let you know. Point 8, above.

4) Indeed, and this would lead a person led by logic and reason to believe that he couldn't because his spirit is weaker than his physical body.

5) The Chosen One was created to destroy the sith, not Palpatine specifically. With EU, that becomes a moot plotline.

Lying fanboys can't save Sidious.

1. We see the flames cover the temple as well. And the ritual was designed to free his spirit....with the life energy of all the Massassi, not to mention his temple with a focal point as his power.

2. Would've helped a lot with Vodo and Nomi:? And Kun's spirit was rather in tune with the force

3. Please, Guide to Characters? "Kun posted a Night Beast as a guard"? Kalgrath from 'Classic Star Wars?' If wiki-accurate as Encyclopedia Britannica- is putting up false info, it'd be declared such and changed. And the ritual was designed to FREE his spirit from the CHAINS of his physical body. I don't see him grabbing Corran and hurling him around when he was alive, or melting stone.

4. And who was the Sith at the time? Oh yes, Palpatine....now, using a conditional...

4. The same logic and reasoning that says killing a leviathan when a group of padawans did the same is something greater than ripping a fleet to bits?

1) We see the flames cover the temple on which was vegetation, yes. We do not see the flames go inside the temple.

What in God's name kind of rock do you think Kun made his temples out of? It's not some mysterious flammable stone. Kun would've been quite alright inside.

2) What in God's name are you talking about?

3) Please, actual source material?


Big, unnamed f'in massassi.

And the ritual was designed to free him from his body, yes. But as spirits, force users lose power, especially over time. Evidence: Obi-Wan

5 (learn to number, you're out of order)) No, the Sith is an organization. For all this vaunted talk of the prophecy, if Palpatine ate it before, say, Maul, Anakin would've been destined to kill him and not your beloved Sidious. QED.

4) Again, the creature is a sith wyrm and did these padawans do it by shooting giant energy blasts from their hands with no effort and no consequences? I think not.

Originally posted by IKC
1) I call it Kun toying with Vodo as has been maintained all along.

You've no proof that the battle was a stalemate. Your use of calling his weapon a "trump card" is blatant bias designed to diminish his accomplishment. You lose. QED.

2) Everyone who vanishes is not shown to mystically "prepare" death. You have no idea what is involved in such a ritual and you claimed that because Vodo disappeared then he must have given up. Finally though you admit that he did not. It took you long enough. QED.

3) Nor can you offer a solid alternative as to who the de facto Grandmaster of the order is. The best choice is Vodo.

4) Are you really so dense? I'll emphasize for you: The war against the Sith continued past the events depicted in FotSE. Unless you actually think that all the Republic and Jedi did was destroy the invading force and chase tham once to the battle in which Ludo participated and then just left the entirety of the Sith Empire unmolested. You would think this despite the fact that dialogue and narration shows that the combined Republic and Jedi forces continued into the old Empire and smashed it, "hunting the Sith to extinction" as described by one of the participants, Odan-Urr.

Your fanboy bias knows no bounds.

5) Yes, good.

6) No, a trump card is a ridiculous term you like to bandy about to make Kun's accomplishment seem trivial. My use of it in a similar context was mocking your use of it.

7) No, Vodo tells Kun that he is not ready to learn things of the Dark Side and that he wishes Kun would focus on things he choosed to teach him. And it didn't take only Vodo and Nomi to bring down Ulic. The other Jedi, including Cay, Tott Doneeta, Qrrl Toq, Shoanes Culu, Sylvar, and Dace Diath "add their powers to cement a temporary wall of light, imprisoning Ulic."

That's seven knights, plus the de facto Grandmaster.

8)

That's a big f'in massassi. Since all the massassi gathered at the temple to sacrifice themselves, he must have been there as well.

As well, it seems that Kun changes his mind midway through the first scan. This is indicated by a "but."

9) Uh huh. And where is she shown capable of restraining Ulic by herself, anyway? It's not shown... anywhere in DLotS or TSW.

10) Actually, he calls the single amulet to himself because he's finally embraced the Dark Side. And the creature Kun killed (by himself) wasn't necessarily a leviathan. For one, it doesn't resemble a Leviathan nor is it named in the comic.

Kun obviously didn't need to use his amulet against Vodo, since he was clearly able to pwn him in a melee battle after surmising that Vodo wouldn't join him. As for Ulic, you cannot just assume that Kun wouldn have just resorted to blasting him, especially since the fight was interrupted.

This is a lie. Kun states, "My hand... the flesh is burned! But I feel no pain!" And then, immediately afterwards, we have a nice big close-up of that very same hand.

Ooh, how hideously burned. Unlike Sidious, Kun doesn't melt himself with his own techniques.

Nonsense. It wasn't a simple decision that he didn't want to deal with Sylvar (how is this relevant, by the way?). She had been beneath him since he first embraced the Dark Side, as is evidenced by when the omniscient narrator states that "the cathar woman is no longer of any consequence to him."

If by "deal with her" you mean "absolutely pwn her in one hit."

11) Indeed, great for us absolutely trashing your assertion. It seems to be the running trend for the past week or so.

12) Uh. Who said Luke was uber? Well, considering that he is, according to you, the only person who can take DE Sidious, whom you seem to place above everyone else in Star Wars...

And yes, he did, in comparison to PT-and-earlier Force Users, suck. He's just fortunate in that almost everyone else sucked too.

Oh, I remember that you claimed that because Luke could use the Force to block blasts from vehicles then this makes him powerful.

Well. Is Tott "Small Fry" Doneeta a Force god, now?

13) Right. Vague "Sith techniques" that people suggest other people try. My query: Where is this relevant?

I note you're unable to prove that choke is nothing more than simple telekinesis. Chalk up another one!

14) Nonsense. Kun's knowledge is not limited to Sadow. The man has been to both Nadd's tomb and Korriban, and since absence of proof isn't proof of absence, has recovered knowledge from both places. Especially since Korriban was, at the time, relatively unplundered.

Your word is all we have to go on for Nadd... doesn't look good, I'd say. And it's quite a lot better if an actual story, rather than a reference guide, tells us what happened. References guides are notorious for glossing things over and fudging facts.

15) Indeed. So if he had them and didn't use them, he's a moron. They boost one's power and allows one to focus the Force beyond what one could achieve normally. What a low-watt bulb Sidious must be, then, for not using them.

16) Odan was capable obviously since he's done it before. However, either Kun knows of a technique to resist it or, more likely, Kun is so much more powerful than Odan that he was able to resist it with simple force. Either way, Kun pwned Odan.

You'd put a jarred head, a pair of practically unknown Sith Lords whom I speculate weren't even alive during Marka's reign, and Ludo Kressh over Naga Sadow? Naga Sadow whose power is described as "titanic in comparison to later Jedi?" Naga Sadow who only had to contend with Kressh to be heir apparent to Marka?

I'm glad you have such deductive reasoning.

17) No mention of how Luke was only a handful of years beyond his ROTJ days, when he still treated his lightsaber as a baseball bat yet was able to slice off Sidious' hand. No mention of how the relatively-untrained Luke combined with Leia and Anakin "assisting" was able to push Sidious' own force storm on him. Wow, that Sidious has such a great command over his technique, a neophyte turned it around on him!

A man put on his ass by and scurrying away from Mace Windu, someone who would've been tooled by Exar Kun in a saber fight. And if you want to compare saber careers...

Sidious: Ass handed to him by Windu.

Hand cut off by Luke.

Kun: As a padawan, beats Crado with ease.

Gets clawed by Sylvar when she gives in to anger, but is interrupted in his angry counterattack by Vodo.

Is put on his ass by Vodo, but calls his fallen saber to him and beats Vodo back, breaking his staff which is described by the omniscient narrator as "more powerful than Exar Kun's lightsaber!"

After embracing the Dark Side, stalemates Ulic Qel-Droma, a fellow prodigy in a pure saber duel but is interrupted before the fight could conclude.

As Dark Lord, destroys his former master decisively, and begins to duel Ood before a massassi interrupts.

I'd say Kun's lightsaber career is far more illustrious.

Absence of proof isn't proof of absence, Lightsnake. To claim that Vodo wasn't adept in combat is ridiculous: pride is not a Jedi trait, yet Vodo believed himself so proficient that he confronted the Dark Lord of the Sith armed with a stick.

Using your logic, if Sidious were so powerful, he wouldn't have needed Vader to storm the Jedi Temple or to assassinate the Seperatists on Mustafar. He wouldn't have needed to send Maul to kill the Jedi protecting Amidala and kill her as well. If Sidious were so powerful, he wouldn't have sent a servant to deal with Ood.

What's that? Your logic is extremely flawed and one-sided? Yes, that's a point we've been making since you first started spouting nonsense.

Kun is clearly able to kill powerful Force users with a wave of his hand. There's your evidence.

There's no mention of how Ood's body was torn up by the supernova holocaust that seared Ossus' surface and how he was stuck to one spot for 4000 years. If you'll remember, burning and loss of one's physical body reduces one's power in the force, evidenced by Anakin/Darth Vader.

Continued...

Originally posted by IKC
Perhaps you've forgotten what this fleet consisted of. I'll remind you.




All of the freaking Jedi in the Galaxy. Do you actually think a Force attack from one man, no matter how powerful, could do squat to them? I submit that even Ragnos would've been doomed in that situation.

It's hyperbole at best to call that simple screaming. He was, after all, trying to get Ulic's attention.

But I'll play by your logic and say that the minute Sidious shows himself capable of pwning ancient Jedi masters on the same level as those during the Sith War, then he might be able to compete. His track record isn't off to a great start.

Illustrious has done a fine enough job making your ridiculous assertions from the DE Sourcebook irrelevant.

Lying fanboys can't save Sidious.

Going to answer anytime soon?

Originally posted by IKC
1) We see the flames cover the temple on which was vegetation, yes. We do not see the flames go inside the temple.

What in God's name kind of rock do you think Kun made his temples out of? It's not some mysterious flammable stone. Kun would've been quite alright inside.

2) What in God's name are you talking about?

3) Please, actual source material?


Big, unnamed f'in massassi.

And the ritual was designed to free him from his body, yes. But as spirits, force users lose power, especially over time. Evidence: Obi-Wan

5 (learn to number, you're out of order)) No, the Sith is an organization. For all this vaunted talk of the prophecy, if Palpatine ate it before, say, Maul, Anakin would've been destined to kill him and not your beloved Sidious. QED.

4) Again, the creature is a sith wyrm and did these padawans do it by shooting giant energy blasts from their hands with no effort and no consequences? I think not.

1. And there's ANY reason to assume Kun's body was not destroyed?

2. Y'know, that wall of light...would've stopped Kun dead in his tracks...

3. Essential Character guide stated Kalgrath MUTATED. Read Classic Star Wars or the Wiki article. Proof they lose power in centers for their power, charged with energy from a race....Kun wasn't an ordinary force ghost, I, Jedi shoots your point down

4. And the Sith at the time was Palpatine, so anakin was destined to kill him. And he did it.

5. Blister traps, mouth appendages, skin colar, body shape...yeah, that's a leviathan. Killed by a padawans. Real nice, Exar

And please. You want the sources taking down your little Mace/Yoda bashing points? Want the sources taking down your Luke bashing?

You swallow your ego and read what I'VE posted to prove my point, then I'll respond to yours. Go on, you little Kunny fanboy, I've taken care of all of those points before. You've yet to even AKCNOWLEDGE mine.

He had spent decades devoted to meditation and study, immersing himself in the secrets and lore of a thousand worlds and a thousand cults, secluded in his monasteries and libraries. He had made pilgrimages to Korriban, to Dromund Kaas, the Ziost, to Had Abbadon, to Arkania, to Apollyon, to Cos. He had mastered the great power in all its guises – the Force, the sublime Eternity, the All, the Great Unity, the Tyia, the Quwa Akhrín, the White Current – and in all its traditions – the Sith Lords, the Jedi Knights, the Krath Society, the Nightsisters of Dathomir, the Heresiarch Congregation, the Shamans of the Jarvashqiine, the Intisharim. He had learned the esoteric martial arts of Teräs Käsi and Yad Hadíd; he had mastered the forms and styles of the lightsaber. He knew the secrets of Quey'tek and the Doppelgänger, Malacia and Mortichro, Mechu Duru and Lilakhrin, and countless more. He was deeply immersed in the thousands of years of traditions from thousands of cults and sects. He was a specter of the past – a phantom menace – the revenge of the Sith.

There was Luke Skywalker, the simple farmboy from a backwater desert world, the guardian of the light side of the Force, with all his awe-inspiring power at its fullest. He was a beacon of honesty and generosity, willing to lay down his own life to save those of his friends. He had come from a planet with two suns into a galaxy lost in darkness, bringing with him a new hope for freedom. He had destroyed the Death Star and saved the brave Rebellion against the tyrannical rule of the evil Empire; he had redeemed the soul of a mighty Dark Lord of the Sith and shattered the Emperor's iron grip on the galaxy. The peoples the galaxy had been drowning in the eternal darkness of the Sith's reign, and he had brought them light.

He had only learned of the Force as a young man; his formal training had been cut short by the deaths of both his Masters. He had found few scraps of the lost traditions of the Jedi Knights; he had searched in vain for the knowledge of that noble order whose light the Dark Lord of the Sith had tried to extinguish. He had found little in the empty halls of the Jedi Temple and the wreck of the Chu'unthor, never even been to the few abandoned praxeums and libraries that still remained. He had not been instructed in the philosophies of the Jedi scribes, nor did he know their formalized techniques and disciplines and rubrics; he wielded his power in an unconscious and completely instinctive way. He did not speak High Galactic, had not been trained in the ways of the Jedi Knight's blade; he knew none of the forms, only using the Force to guide his hand. He did not know the histories and traditions of the cults of the Force that the Sith Lords and their Empire had eradicated. He had few ties to the history of the Jedi and their Order, fewer still to the countless other traditions and cults and sects. He was a vision of the future – a new hope – the return of the Jedi.

1) If Kun's body was destroyed it is most likely the result of the ritual, given that the fire could not enter the temple.

2) Uh, and it did. That's what it took all the Jedi in the galaxy to do.

3) Prove that he was anything more than a force ghost like Nadd or Ragnos, Obi-Wan or Anakin. All that the comic states is that the massassi were needed to unleash his spirit, not so that they can uber his spirit up.

4) Yes, but the prophecy wasn't that someone would come along and kill a man named Palpatine but that someone would come along and destroy the Sith.

5) Wrong.

That's a leviathan.

That's a Sith Wyrm.

QED. Aren't you tired of being wrong?

Originally posted by IKC
1) I call it Kun toying with Vodo as has been maintained all along.

You've no proof that the battle was a stalemate. Your use of calling his weapon a "trump card" is blatant bias designed to diminish his accomplishment. You lose. QED.

2) Everyone who vanishes is not shown to mystically "prepare" death. You have no idea what is involved in such a ritual and you claimed that because Vodo disappeared then he must have given up. Finally though you admit that he did not. It took you long enough. QED.

3) Nor can you offer a solid alternative as to who the de facto Grandmaster of the order is. The best choice is Vodo.

4) Are you really so dense? I'll emphasize for you: The war against the Sith continued past the events depicted in FotSE. Unless you actually think that all the Republic and Jedi did was destroy the invading force and chase tham once to the battle in which Ludo participated and then just left the entirety of the Sith Empire unmolested. You would think this despite the fact that dialogue and narration shows that the combined Republic and Jedi forces continued into the old Empire and smashed it, "hunting the Sith to extinction" as described by one of the participants, Odan-Urr.

Your fanboy bias knows no bounds.

5) Yes, good.

6) No, a trump card is a ridiculous term you like to bandy about to make Kun's accomplishment seem trivial. My use of it in a similar context was mocking your use of it.

7) No, Vodo tells Kun that he is not ready to learn things of the Dark Side and that he wishes Kun would focus on things he choosed to teach him. And it didn't take only Vodo and Nomi to bring down Ulic. The other Jedi, including Cay, Tott Doneeta, Qrrl Toq, Shoanes Culu, Sylvar, and Dace Diath "add their powers to cement a temporary wall of light, imprisoning Ulic."

That's seven knights, plus the de facto Grandmaster.

8)

That's a big f'in massassi. Since all the massassi gathered at the temple to sacrifice themselves, he must have been there as well.

As well, it seems that Kun changes his mind midway through the first scan. This is indicated by a "but."

9) Uh huh. And where is she shown capable of restraining Ulic by herself, anyway? It's not shown... anywhere in DLotS or TSW.

10) Actually, he calls the single amulet to himself because he's finally embraced the Dark Side. And the creature Kun killed (by himself) wasn't necessarily a leviathan. For one, it doesn't resemble a Leviathan nor is it named in the comic.

Kun obviously didn't need to use his amulet against Vodo, since he was clearly able to pwn him in a melee battle after surmising that Vodo wouldn't join him. As for Ulic, you cannot just assume that Kun wouldn have just resorted to blasting him, especially since the fight was interrupted.

This is a lie. Kun states, "My hand... the flesh is burned! But I feel no pain!" And then, immediately afterwards, we have a nice big close-up of that very same hand.

Ooh, how hideously burned. Unlike Sidious, Kun doesn't melt himself with his own techniques.

Nonsense. It wasn't a simple decision that he didn't want to deal with Sylvar (how is this relevant, by the way?). She had been beneath him since he first embraced the Dark Side, as is evidenced by when the omniscient narrator states that "the cathar woman is no longer of any consequence to him."

If by "deal with her" you mean "absolutely pwn her in one hit."

11) Indeed, great for us absolutely trashing your assertion. It seems to be the running trend for the past week or so.

12) Uh. Who said Luke was uber? Well, considering that he is, according to you, the only person who can take DE Sidious, whom you seem to place above everyone else in Star Wars...

And yes, he did, in comparison to PT-and-earlier Force Users, suck. He's just fortunate in that almost everyone else sucked too.

Oh, I remember that you claimed that because Luke could use the Force to block blasts from vehicles then this makes him powerful.

Well. Is Tott "Small Fry" Doneeta a Force god, now?

13) Right. Vague "Sith techniques" that people suggest other people try. My query: Where is this relevant?

I note you're unable to prove that choke is nothing more than simple telekinesis. Chalk up another one!

14) Nonsense. Kun's knowledge is not limited to Sadow. The man has been to both Nadd's tomb and Korriban, and since absence of proof isn't proof of absence, has recovered knowledge from both places. Especially since Korriban was, at the time, relatively unplundered.

Your word is all we have to go on for Nadd... doesn't look good, I'd say. And it's quite a lot better if an actual story, rather than a reference guide, tells us what happened. References guides are notorious for glossing things over and fudging facts.

15) Indeed. So if he had them and didn't use them, he's a moron. They boost one's power and allows one to focus the Force beyond what one could achieve normally. What a low-watt bulb Sidious must be, then, for not using them.

16) Odan was capable obviously since he's done it before. However, either Kun knows of a technique to resist it or, more likely, Kun is so much more powerful than Odan that he was able to resist it with simple force. Either way, Kun pwned Odan.

You'd put a jarred head, a pair of practically unknown Sith Lords whom I speculate weren't even alive during Marka's reign, and Ludo Kressh over Naga Sadow? Naga Sadow whose power is described as "titanic in comparison to later Jedi?" Naga Sadow who only had to contend with Kressh to be heir apparent to Marka?

I'm glad you have such deductive reasoning.

17) No mention of how Luke was only a handful of years beyond his ROTJ days, when he still treated his lightsaber as a baseball bat yet was able to slice off Sidious' hand. No mention of how the relatively-untrained Luke combined with Leia and Anakin "assisting" was able to push Sidious' own force storm on him. Wow, that Sidious has such a great command over his technique, a neophyte turned it around on him!

A man put on his ass by and scurrying away from Mace Windu, someone who would've been tooled by Exar Kun in a saber fight. And if you want to compare saber careers...

Sidious: Ass handed to him by Windu.

Hand cut off by Luke.

Kun: As a padawan, beats Crado with ease.

Gets clawed by Sylvar when she gives in to anger, but is interrupted in his angry counterattack by Vodo.

Is put on his ass by Vodo, but calls his fallen saber to him and beats Vodo back, breaking his staff which is described by the omniscient narrator as "more powerful than Exar Kun's lightsaber!"

After embracing the Dark Side, stalemates Ulic Qel-Droma, a fellow prodigy in a pure saber duel but is interrupted before the fight could conclude.

As Dark Lord, destroys his former master decisively, and begins to duel Ood before a massassi interrupts.

I'd say Kun's lightsaber career is far more illustrious.

Absence of proof isn't proof of absence, Lightsnake. To claim that Vodo wasn't adept in combat is ridiculous: pride is not a Jedi trait, yet Vodo believed himself so proficient that he confronted the Dark Lord of the Sith armed with a stick.

Using your logic, if Sidious were so powerful, he wouldn't have needed Vader to storm the Jedi Temple or to assassinate the Seperatists on Mustafar. He wouldn't have needed to send Maul to kill the Jedi protecting Amidala and kill her as well. If Sidious were so powerful, he wouldn't have sent a servant to deal with Ood.

What's that? Your logic is extremely flawed and one-sided? Yes, that's a point we've been making since you first started spouting nonsense.

Kun is clearly able to kill powerful Force users with a wave of his hand. There's your evidence.

There's no mention of how Ood's body was torn up by the supernova holocaust that seared Ossus' surface and how he was stuck to one spot for 4000 years. If you'll remember, burning and loss of one's physical body reduces one's power in the force, evidenced by Anakin/Darth Vader.

Continued...

Originally posted by IKC
Perhaps you've forgotten what this fleet consisted of. I'll remind you.




All of the freaking Jedi in the Galaxy. Do you actually think a Force attack from one man, no matter how powerful, could do squat to them? I submit that even Ragnos would've been doomed in that situation.

It's hyperbole at best to call that simple screaming. He was, after all, trying to get Ulic's attention.

But I'll play by your logic and say that the minute Sidious shows himself capable of pwning ancient Jedi masters on the same level as those during the Sith War, then he might be able to compete. His track record isn't off to a great start.

Illustrious has done a fine enough job making your ridiculous assertions from the DE Sourcebook irrelevant.

Lying fanboys can't save Sidious.

If you had a shred of reading comprehension, you'd see this points came before your irrelevant paragraph. They still go unanswered, but they will not go unrepeated until they are.

You would do nice to actually address points with fact and logical reasoninf for once, Lightsnake.

He had spent decades devoted to meditation and study, immersing himself in the secrets and lore of a thousand worlds and a thousand cults, secluded in his monasteries and libraries.

Kinda like how Sadow and his ilk spent centuries in sith magic and alchemy?

He had made pilgrimages to Korriban, to Dromund Kaas, the Ziost, to Had Abbadon, to Arkania, to Apollyon, to Cos.

To remnant scraps of power. When Korriban or Ziost had been flourishing, I'd guarantee you'd find more there. Much less to an individual who was fully immersed (he was living there after all) in the culture and society.

He had mastered the great power in all its guises – the Force, the sublime Eternity, the All, the Great Unity, the Tyia, the Quwa Akhrín, the White Current – and in all its traditions – the Sith Lords, the Jedi Knights, the Krath Society, the Nightsisters of Dathomir, the Heresiarch Congregation, the Shamans of the Jarvashqiine, the Intisharim. He had learned the esoteric martial arts of Teräs Käsi and Yad Hadíd; he had mastered the forms and styles of the lightsaber. He knew the secrets of Quey'tek and the Doppelgänger, Malacia and Mortichro, Mechu Duru and Lilakhrin, and countless more. He was deeply immersed in the thousands of years of traditions from thousands of cults and sects. He was a specter of the past – a phantom menace – the revenge of the Sith.

He was a specter of the past.

spec·ter ( P ) Pronunciation Key (spktr)
n.
A ghostly apparition; a phantom.
A haunting or disturbing image or prospect: the terrible specter of nuclear war

He was a specter of the past (first definition). That certainly doesn't imply that he was more powerful than all of the Sith in the past, sorry.

There was Luke Skywalker, the simple farmboy from a backwater desert world, the guardian of the light side of the Force, with all his awe-inspiring power at its fullest. He was a beacon of honesty and generosity, willing to lay down his own life to save those of his friends. He had come from a planet with two suns into a galaxy lost in darkness, bringing with him a new hope for freedom. He had destroyed the Death Star and saved the brave Rebellion against the tyrannical rule of the evil Empire; he had redeemed the soul of a mighty Dark Lord of the Sith and shattered the Emperor's iron grip on the galaxy. The peoples the galaxy had been drowning in the eternal darkness of the Sith's reign, and he had brought them light.

'Kay, this means he's an avatar?

He had only learned of the Force as a young man; his formal training had been cut short by the deaths of both his Masters. He had found few scraps of the lost traditions of the Jedi Knights; he had searched in vain for the knowledge of that noble order whose light the Dark Lord of the Sith had tried to extinguish. He had found little in the empty halls of the Jedi Temple and the wreck of the Chu'unthor, never even been to the few abandoned praxeums and libraries that still remained. He had not been instructed in the philosophies of the Jedi scribes, nor did he know their formalized techniques and disciplines and rubrics; he wielded his power in an unconscious and completely instinctive way. He did not speak High Galactic, had not been trained in the ways of the Jedi Knight's blade; he knew none of the forms, only using the Force to guide his hand. He did not know the histories and traditions of the cults of the Force that the Sith Lords and their Empire had eradicated. He had few ties to the history of the Jedi and their Order, fewer still to the countless other traditions and cults and sects. He was a vision of the future – a new hope – the return of the Jedi.

This entire passage talks about how Luke is untrained and unversed. This is the guy that ultimately lead to Sidious' demise. It does not mention that he was the most powerful force wielder ever.

I don't know how you're interpretating it, but perhaps you should post your explication.

Y'know, Janus? Stay out of this. You've done nothing but be a total hindrance during this entire round of debates and you shut up rather quickly after I posted that info, which by the way....is official. You are NOT.

And IKC, read I, Jedi. It takes Kun down about ten pegs and shows he was stronger than he was when he was alive. Temple focal point? All that life energy? Yep.

And in EC and CG, it's described as a Leviathan. 'Sith Wyrm' turns up no search, now to your other points

Y'know Lightsnake? Don't tell other members what to stay out of or get into. You're not Lord of the Board.

And Lightsnake, read TOTJ. It shows Kun performing feats that his spirit could never do. I, Jedi, written by Michael Stackpole and not KJA was more about Corran Horn than anyone else.

And in the TOTJ Sourcebook, it's called a Sith Wyrm. I love how you didn't address how they don't resemble each other. Here are its stats:

Sith Wyrm: Mutated subterranean carnivorous vermin 14; Init +0; Defense 12 (+10 natural, -8 size); Spd 16m, burrow 40m; VP/WP 326/304; Atk +26 melee (4d8+17, bite) or +5 ranged; SQ Darkvision 20m, swallow whole, track; SV Fort +25, Ref +11, Will +3; SZ C; Rep 4; Str 44, Dex 10, Con 38, Int 1, Wis 8, Cha 10. Challenge Code: l.

Skills: Listen +14, Hide +7, Spot +9, Survival -1 Special Qualities: Swallow Whole-After a successful grapple check, the Sith wyrm can swallow opponents it holds (see Grapple on page 148 of the Star Wars
Roleplaying Game). The opponent can be up to Gargantuan in size. First, the Sith wyrm must make a successful melee touch attack to grab its victim. Immediately afterward, it must make an opposed grapple check to hold its victim. On a later turn, it may attempt an opposed grapple check against its held opponent. If the wyrm succeeds on its check, it swallows its victim whole; on a failed roll, the
opponent remains held.

If the victim survives the attack and ends up in the Sith wyrm's stomach, he or she suffers 3d6 points of acid damage each round. If the swallowed character can deal 48 points of wound damage to the inside of the Sith wyrm (which has a Defense of 12), he or she breaks free.

Y'know, Janus? Stay out of this. You've done nothing but be a total hindrance during this entire round of debates and you shut up rather quickly after I posted that info, which by the way....is official. You are NOT.

Tales of the Jedi is official too. You didn't seem to hesitate in denying that.

And IKC, read I, Jedi. It takes Kun down about ten pegs and shows he was stronger than he was when he was alive. Temple focal point? All that life energy? Yep.

The same Kun that had Luke at his mercy until he got help? The Luke that was post DE? Check.

And no one claimed either incarnation of him was weak, but I, Jedi does not provide any substantiation or definitive conclusive narration that he was weaker in physical form than as a spirit.

And in EC and CG, it's described as a Leviathan. 'Sith Wyrm' turns up no search, now to your other points

That's because it's in TOTJ 😉.

I have a question. What does DE Sidious do that makes him so powerful? So much more powerful than ROTS Sidious? I mean, didn't he get killed by Han Solo?

1. And you have no proof Kun was toying with Vodo. In fact, the EC calls it a 'heated battle'

2. Sorry, confirmed you need to prepare to become a Force Ghost. New Rebellion, Kunny boy. Not only that, name one person who didn't know they were going to die who became a ghost and vanished.

3. Or there wasn't a Grandmaster. Considering how spread out the ORder was. Prove Vodo was a grandmaster, or shut up, Kunny boy.

4. Really. says the Tetans did that. And Odan had no part of it. He and memit disconnected their sabers.

5 and 6: Yes, yes.

7. There were four JEdi present then, Qrrl Toq wasn't one of them,. they could have easily tried it on Kun. Maybe Vodo's just an idiot!

8. But I can use the power anyway, what's your point? Character guide says Kalgrath became the night beast, Wiki supports it...just conceed this point.

9. Only when she blocks him off from the Force completely, maybe...

10. Aleema? And why didn't Kun blast him at first? Shows he makes glaring errors. And his hand was burned, thanks for agreeing. And btw, in Sithisis, we see Sidious change his face at will, how sweet.

11. Read the essay or shut up. Unless you can put Kun to ANY plateau Sidious stands on after that...

12. Everyone else? Shut up, Kunny boy. considering Luke was an avatar of the force at the time.....

13. Designed to instantly kill an opponent that Luke blocks. NEXT!

14. Translation: I have no proof and must attack the source! Please, Nadd's knowledge was limited to Sadow and what's Kun learn from Korriban now? Waaait, no Ancient Sith training or ancient artifacts from there...certainly not their darkest secrets...

15. Or they were on Byss, or unlike Kun he';s not a wimp who needs them.

16. Proof now. We saw KRessh match Sadow and Sadow only become Dark Lord via murdering Simus.

17. Six years. Enough to become momentously stronger. Read the essay or shut up, Kunny boy. Mace Windu? One of the best saber users who ever lived.

No explanation to how Ood drew up power from OSsus to fight Sedriss, no answers to how Odan was strong in the least...Mace'd have destroyed your prcious exar in a fight. Vaapad, something Kun has never seen....we know Sidious killed numerous Jedi in the purge and crushed three strong Jedi in a dying clone body...And yes, the Chancellor can pull out a saber and storm the temple....I recall Kun running in fear from the Jedi who equaled the number in that temple and being tooled by toddlers