Oh I agree with that, Exar would beat Sidious, I just said that to show that no matter what Exar and Ulic win. I think that everyone agrees that Exar is at least close to Sidious, even Lightsnake agrees with that, so if they are close then that battle would not be over quickly. The Ulic Dooku fight on the other hand would be quicker and Ulic would win.
This was just to show that even using Lightsnake's power levels (which I disagree with), Exar and Ulic still win
Maybe, DA, ebcause spirit Kun had
A. The lfie force of millions of beings
B. Just taken all Gantoris had
C. Had the amssive power of the temple he's erected.
I'm getting tired of it being argued how strong Kun is. He never showed himself to be uber to the level of annihilating fleets...and by this logic, the statement that Exar is the strongest Jedi of his time should be voerwrittenbecause Revan didn't exist. Were's Kun's fights ever felt all over the galaxy?
You keep saying the points have been ripped apart. Deal with the oens that apply to Kun's power. We know Palpatine mastered every aspect of the Force and =was able to invent, discover and master techniques of the past and present. We know he mastered information from numerous artifacts of numerous points in time, from numerous places. We know he's shown the power to erase the minds of trillions and drain millions.
Remind me, how does Kun slaughter him?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Maybe, DA, ebcause spirit Kun had
A. The lfie force of millions of beings
B. Just taken all Gantoris had
C. Had the amssive power of the temple he's erected.
Oh great:
A.) Yeah...and he totaly didn't use it considering he's around for 4,000 years yet. He could hardly talk to people but he must be uber powerful as a spirit.
B.) W T F ? What do you want to tell me ? That Kun as a spirit somehow developed a force power to drain the force from other people and use it after doing this. I wonder how that should work.
C.) The temples are just focus point for power that people have and they aren't power sources.
I'm getting tired of it being argued how strong Kun is. He never showed himself to be uber to the level of annihilating fleets...and by this logic, the statement that Exar is the strongest Jedi of his time should be voerwrittenbecause Revan didn't exist. Were's Kun's fights ever felt all over the galaxy?
If you are tired of being argued simply stop throwing BS in here. Where did he have the oportunity or need to "annihilate fleets" ? The only fleet to annihilate carried the entirety of the Sith order and Kun didn't say "meh...I can't annihilate the ships" he said "I can't take it up with the combined power of all the Jedi in the Galaxy" which is quite more than "the power of Luke, unborn Anakin and Leia".
And what should be overwritten ? Unless Revan is in his 40s during KotoR - and he clearly doesn't look as if he is (it doesn't matter which model you take) he wasn't born when Kun was alive.
By the way...Yoda sensed the death of all the Jedi in ROTS. Hmm...so Ki-Adi-Mundi and so on are now as powerful as Sidious is. Hmm...or were that the Clone Troopers ?
You keep saying the points have been ripped apart. Deal with the oens that apply to Kun's power. We know Palpatine mastered every aspect of the Force and =was able to invent, discover and master techniques of the past and present. We know he mastered information from numerous artifacts of numerous points in time, from numerous places. We know he's shown the power to erase the minds of trillions and drain millions.
We know that hyperbole is hyperbole and shouldn't be used as argument like you keep do all the time.
Remind me, how does Kun slaughter him?
He points Sadow's amulet at him fires a blast and Sidious finds himself lying on the ground with a big hole in his body. Otherwise they simply engage in a lightsaber fight and Kun tools Sidious there. Your choice...
Maybe, DA, ebcause spirit Kun had
A. The lfie force of millions of beings
B. Just taken all Gantoris had
C. Had the amssive power of the temple he's erected.
A: Unproven.
B: Ooh, because Gantoris was formidable. And didn't Kun just fry him with lightning?
C: Okay, so he can't use it while living...why? You realize a bunch of apprentices used the temples to push back a super star destroyer, right? This makes his spirit more powerful than his body how?
I'm getting tired of it being argued how strong Kun is. He never showed himself to be uber to the level of annihilating fleets...and by this logic, the statement that Exar is the strongest Jedi of his time should be voerwrittenbecause Revan didn't exist. Were's Kun's fights ever felt all over the galaxy?
Oh, but apparently Bane can use Sidious' force storm according to your precious chronology. There goes that hyperbolic argument.
The man instakilled millenia-old Jedi Masters, tooled the de facto head of the order in a duel, froze the entire senate (at least thousands, maybe millions of sentients), and shot powerful blasts out of his hands with no effort.
And unless you're actually going to argue that Revan is more powerful than Exar Kun (and believe me, I'll welcome that challenge any day of the week. Revan's a pipsqueak in comparison) then come off it.
You keep saying the points have been ripped apart. Deal with the oens that apply to Kun's power. We know Palpatine mastered every aspect of the Force and =was able to invent, discover and master techniques of the past and present.
No, why don't you deal with the rather long posts Illustrious and I posted just a page back? I know why, because you can't. Your only refuge is to dig deeper into irrelevancies and logical fallacies that have already been defeated.
How in God's name can any one being master "every aspect of the Force?" What does that even mean, that he learned every power? Do you have any idea how long that would take? As I believe Janus stated, Sidious would have to be older than Bane for him to even come close to doing such a thing. Is this why he never used several powers the Ancients and Kun had performed which would've saved his leathery ass?
We know he mastered information from numerous artifacts of numerous points in time, from numerous places. We know he's shown the power to erase the minds of trillions and drain millions.
Prove up. Don't appeal to majority. "We know" jack until it's been proven.
Remind me, how does Kun slaughter him?
Instakill, amulet blasts, saber...
I'd put Kun as having higher saber skills than Luke "Slugger" Skywalker.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh great:
A.) Yeah...and he totaly didn't use it considering he's around for 4,000 years yet. He could hardly talk to people but he must be uber powerful as a spirit.
B.) W T F ? What do you want to tell me ? That Kun as a spirit somehow developed a force power to drain the force from other people and use it after doing this. I wonder how that should work.
C.) The temples are just focus point for power that people have and they aren't power sources.If you are tired of being argued simply stop throwing BS in here. Where did he have the oportunity or need to "annihilate fleets" ? The only fleet to annihilate carried the entirety of the Sith order and Kun didn't say "meh...I can't annihilate the ships" he said "I can't take it up with the combined power of all the Jedi in the Galaxy" which is quite more than "the power of Luke, unborn Anakin and Leia".
And what should be overwritten ? Unless Revan is in his 40s during KotoR - and he clearly doesn't look as if he is (it doesn't matter which model you take) he wasn't born when Kun was alive.
By the way...Yoda sensed the death of all the Jedi in ROTS. Hmm...so Ki-Adi-Mundi and so on are now as powerful as Sidious is. Hmm...or were that the Clone Troopers ?
We know that hyperbole is hyperbole and shouldn't be used as argument like you keep do all the time.
He points Sadow's amulet at him fires a blast and Sidious finds himself lying on the ground with a big hole in his body. Otherwise they simply engage in a lightsaber fight and Kun tools Sidious there. Your choice...
1. Except when he got to Luke's students. And yeah, killing Gantoris got him a nice bevy of energy, apparently. Proof temples aren't power sources? Korriban worked well for Sion. And Kun had power to draw off from Yavin, hence why Corran had to destroy his statue.
2. Maybe Kun could've done so on OSsus, or Onderon, or Yavin...might've helped Naga Sadow a bit, too... And nope, Luke, LEia and Anakin there were using the full, complete power of the force. That's more than any Jedi. And Yoda felt deaths of his comrades.....were any of Kun's fights felt across the galaxy by EVERY force sensitive?
3. And how is that hyperbole? They're clearly stated statements.
4. Or Sidious uses Morichiro and Kun dies instantly, or Kun gets arrogant and tries to best Sidious in a more direct fight and dies when Sidious unleashes his utter mastery of the Force
Originally posted by IKC
A: Unproven.
B: Ooh, because Gantoris was formidable. And didn't Kun just fry him with lightning?
C: Okay, so he can't use it while living...why? You realize a bunch of apprentices used the temples to push back a super star destroyer, right? This makes his spirit more powerful than his body how?Oh, but apparently Bane can use Sidious' force storm according to your precious chronology. There goes that hyperbolic argument.
The man instakilled millenia-old Jedi Masters, tooled the de facto head of the order in a duel, froze the entire senate (at least thousands, maybe millions of sentients), and shot powerful blasts out of his hands with no effort.
And unless you're actually going to argue that Revan is more powerful than Exar Kun (and believe me, I'll welcome that challenge any day of the week. Revan's a pipsqueak in comparison) then come off it.
No, why don't you deal with the rather long posts Illustrious and I posted just a page back? I know why, because you can't. Your only refuge is to dig deeper into irrelevancies and logical fallacies that have already been defeated.
How in God's name can any one being master "every aspect of the Force?" What does that even mean, that he learned every power? Do you have any idea how long that would take? As I believe Janus stated, Sidious would have to be older than Bane for him to even come close to doing such a thing. Is this why he never used several powers the Ancients and Kun had performed which would've saved his leathery ass?
Prove up. Don't appeal to majority. "We know" jack until it's been proven.
Instakill, amulet blasts, saber...
I'd put Kun as having higher saber skills than Luke "Slugger" Skywalker.
1. Kun drained the life from the Massassi. Indisputable. and yeah, Gantoris was considered one of the best students...and who's to say HOW Kun killed him? And Kun had the temple, not to mention left over Sith things to focus on, hence Corran wiping out the last remnants of his power, including his statue.
2. Except Bane was doing it with the COMBINED power of the other Sith Lords. And what's your point about Odan-Urr? When was he ever strong? he hated combat and probably hadn't fought anyone in centuries. There is no proof either way that Vodo was tooled or the head of the order, by default or otherwise. And STILL no explanation to why Kun never uses those blasts again.
3. Sorry, official source states he mastered every aspect. It's official, you are not. And I'e answered what you and Illustrious have presented.
4. I've proved up by posting that thing several times. And X-wing: He erased the minds of practically everyone on Coruscant after Luskanya was buried.
5. So? Sidious knows Morichiro, an insta kill as well and Kun never sued that amulet again. Not to take into consideration what Sidious could bring into the fight and unleash....drainage, Morichiro, force crush....
Originally posted by IKC
1) Yes, it does. It shows that Kun was toying with Vodo since obviously he wasn't using the full extent of his skill against him. Your use of the term "trump card" is as indicative of bias as anything you spout: was it a trump card when Dooku sliced off Anakin's arm?As I said before: it's a term you use to diminish the man's accomplishment.
2) Yes, but the premise of your original point was that because they became spirits, Vodo must have given up the fight against Kun.
Quoted for truth. You can't prove that and the comic indicates otherwise. [B]QED.
3) Ood? Mr. Librarian? Mr. "Combat is not my skill, Exar Kun?" Mr. "I'm going to trap myself here so the supernova can pwn me, but at least Exar Kun didn't get these old lightsabers!"
Arca? Mr. "I'm only 200 years old?" Mr. "Let me turn my back so this droid can pwn me while I'm ironically warning Ulic against surprise attacks?"
These two shlubs against Vodo, who is repeatedly shown seated at the council of other ancient masters and can make his staff "more powerful" than a lightsaber? Against Vodo, who trained the most powerful Force user of the time?
Vodo was the de facto head at the very least. Deal with it.
4) You numbered wrong. This should be #7.
For one, Jedi can sense a Force user's power. This would give them a reasonable idea of whether or not their technique would work. If they didn't try it against him, it is more likely that he was too powerful for it to be worth a try.
5) Kalgrath is not named in TOTJ nor can you prove that the massassi Kun temporarily ordered to the isolation chambers is the same one that became a "night beast."
Nor can you prove that Kalgrath, if he was even part of Kun's massassi, was left out. Kun says all massassi. Not all but one.|
Prove that Kun decided to drain the massassi before ordering that Massassi down. I would argue that his "but" indicates a slight change of plans.
6) What do you mean so? It's ridiculous to state that they couldn't fight back - of course they did. But it seems that Odan bested them, doesn't it?
And a technique never shown to be blockable? Kun certainly blocked it quite well when Odan tried to do it to him.
7) As Kun is temporarily stalemating Ulic (stalemates don't last forever, and it was only a lightsaber stalemate). And correction: he didn't kill Aleema yet.
8) Lol. Now you're arguing that Sidous faked it against Windu? Got any evidence? He's beaten in both the movie and the novelization. Face it, he got put on his ass. Hell, I thought that way once, but there is no evidence.
Yes, is not lightning "dark side use?" But good that you dropped the ridiculous point on Kun's hand being "burned." Chalk up another one.
How in God's name is any of that Makashi? Those are hammer strikes, not the precision fencing we saw from Count Dooku.
Furthermore, tell me how it's even possible to use Makashi with a short-hilted, double-bladed lightsaber. You're trumped by the comic.
10) Mostly because Luke knows jack about lightsaber dueling nor is there any evidence that he knows a thing about any of the seven forms even by DE. Again, PT padawans would pwn him.
11) It is your assertion that requires proof, not mine. Prove that choke is something other than simple, applied telekinesis.
And given that Obi-Wan was both weaker than and surprised by Dooku, your point collapses.
12) Answer the question: Tott mirrors Luke's feat, does this make him a "titan" and a god?
13)
And good job Luke, you learned how to resist telekinesis! You're almost at the level of a PT padawan!
14) How much time is unknown. And absence of proof is not proof of absence; he wasn't even shown leaving Korriban, does that mean he never left? He's not shown eating, does that mean he doesn't eat? He's not shown taking a crap, does that mean he doesn't?
If Palpatine knew all powers, he would have simply frozen and beheaded Luke a la Kun, or ripped Luke's soul out like Nadd, or projected illusions like Sadow, etc.
He didn't. Any one of these techniques would've allowed Sidious to prevail over Skywalker. Besides the logical improbability of any one person knowing all force techniques, prove that he learned even a quarter of what Exar did. And also, how in God's name do you think Exar would've let Palpatine waltz into his temples and take his things? As is evidenced in JAT, he wakes up when force sensitives are around. Even as a half-mad spirit, he would've given Palpatine trouble.
15) There's no proof that he did need it to kill Nadd or the wyrm because he had only just embraced the dark side. It is feasible that he could have.
And Odan? Where's the proof that he used an amulet on Odan? Is Exar not allowed to gesture with his hands because amulets are on them?
How is this relevant? For the five thousandth time, he's not fighting naked.
16) At the time. Hell, if the fight lasts two seconds, I can stalemate a 300 lb man in a shoving contest.
17) As a god in what context? Certainly he was better than anyone else alive with the exception of Sidious. But out of the obsolete context of DE, written before TOTJ, Luke's a pipsqueak.
18) Kreia's quote, the existence of Tulak Hord, etc.
And considering Juyo was unfinished Vaapad, it is likely that Kun would be more familiar with Mace's style than Mace would be with Kun's unique one. This is not to mention the fact that Kun would be using a weapon totally unfamiliar to Mace, which would place him at an even bigger disadvantage.
Kun tools Mace in a saber fight, plain and simple. Ergo, he will tool Sidious, whom Mace put on his ass.
19) When's Leia ever shown herself capable of anything Nomi's done? She may have the potential, but she doesn't have it realized as Nomi did.
And you'll notice that Exar didn't bother trying to hack through Ood's body, not necessarily because he couldn't but that it would take too long given that there was a supernova on the way.
20) As if that mattered? Nobody knew that the temple was actually attacked. Everyone thought the Jedi rebelled thanks to Sidious' maneuvering.
21) Yes, trapped on the moon, most likely from the wall of light all the Jedi in the galaxy put there 4000 years ago.
Kun may have been "trapped" but he was not defeated or dispelled without the help of two lightsabers, twelve (I believe?) apprentices, Vodo, and Luke. And this is not to mention that it was Kun's 4000 year old, weakened, and half-mad spirit.
Kun does not have more power as a spirit than he does when he was alive. As Glentract showed much earlier:
Continued... [/B]
Originally posted by IKC
About your ridiculous arguments from the sourcebooks:No, this is bullshit. Now you're arguing the Dark Side Sourcebook, which is a handbook for the WotC RPG, saying random statements in it overide TOTJ? Are you nuts? RPG canon is NOT canon at all!
Let's go over this AGAIN:The Holocron's database field is divided into four levels: G-canon, C-canon, S-canon, and N-canon. G, C and S together form an overall continuity. Each ascending level overrides the lower ones. e.g. Boba Fett's back story was radically altered with the release of Attack of the Clones, forcing retconning of older source material to fall in line with the new G-canon back story.
G-canon is absolute canon; the movies and anything coming directly from George Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements coming directly from Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon (see below).
When the matter of changes between movie versions is brought up, the remastered editions are deemed superior to the theatrical ones, since they correct mistakes and improve consistency between the two trilogies. They also express Lucas' original intention and also final word.
C-canon is pretty much everything in the Expanded Universe: Star Wars books, comics, games, cartoons, and more. Games are a special case as generally only the stories are C-canon while things like stats and gameplay may not be. C-canon elements have been known to appear in the movies, thus making them G-canon. (This includes: the name "Coruscant," swoop bikes, Quinlan Vos, Aayla Secura, YT-2400 freighters, Salporin, and Action VI Transports.)S-canon is "secondary" canon; the story itself is considered non-continuity, but the non-contradicting elements are still a canon part of the Star Wars universe. This includes things like the popular online roleplaying game Star Wars Galaxies and certain elements of a few N-canon stories.
N-canon is "non-canon." What-if stories (such as stories published under the Infinities label), some game stats, fanon, and anything else directly contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N-canon is the only level that is not considered canon by Lucasfilm.
Let me point out the definition for C-canon: Games are a special case in which things like states and gameplay may not be canon but stories are. Since roleplaying games and their sourcebooks are staging grounds for fictional, out of continuity individual roleplaying sessions for the amusement of private parties, they should not be considered canon AT ALL. In fact, I would argue that sourcebooks for roleplaying games (obsolete or not) fall under S-canon, and while they may not contradict the EU licensed universe, they do not reflect it either.
Pwnt. QED.
Lying fanboys can't save Sidious. Spend more than five minutes on your reply next time.
Originally posted by Illustrious
This is one of the reasons why people think you're biased. You keep calling it a trump card. It wasn't a trump card. Is using the other end of your weapon a trump card? Did Mace pull a "trump card" when he kicked Sidious' saber out of his hand? Did Dooku pull a "trump card" when he force choked and tossed Obi-Wan across the room? Did Sidious pull a "trump card" when he blasted Yoda's lightsaber from his fingers with a lightning?All of these are innate powers of the character. It's not like Exar Kun ran out of the room and got a bigger weapon. And the fact that seconds after he pulls out the lightsaber, he cleaves Vodo in half indicates that the fight was easier than you may be saying.
I don't remember reading a Kalgrath in TOTJ, refresh my memory?
Kill Aleema and get rid of an annoying star cluster, a two for one deal. You act like he failed in killing her.
It's possible he was faking the exchange with Anakin, but I seriously doubt he was faking the fight against Windu. It certainly doesn't make any sense for him to [b]kill off
three Jedi and then tank against Windu.And in another passage you provided, it described Luke as an untrained and undeveloped farmboy. Luke never had the lightsaber refinery as Dooku, he never developed the force intuition of Yoda, he certainly didn't have the physical strength of a Ragnos.
You dodged the question here. You said Luke was godly and you sited this as a reaason. Tott duplicated it. In the same way that you degrade Sadow because it was the superweapon not the man. If a feat is duplicated by a deemed lesser individual, it's no longer as impressive. Luke's controlling of a black hole, being a "conduit of the force," blocking bolts with the force, etc has been duplicated; ergo those instances alone don't make him singular.
The problem is that statement is vague. If he knew all force powers but didn't use them when the time came, he might as well have not known them. Just like you said, Sadow never cast a force storm when he was meditating -- an attack that could have saved his ass. If Sidious used an illusion, created an army with alchemy, or froze his opponents, he would never have been caught in the bad situation he was in. The statement is about as revealing as saying Sadow was a "master sith magician and alchemist."
Was it stated he needed it? Did it mention that the amulet was the one that killed the wyrm, Nadd, and Odan? The text even goes so far as to say that the amulet was made more powerful BECAUSE of Kun's darkness, not vice versa. The amulet is an unknown quality.
TOTJ is a couple years old yes, and it has been abridged by new additions such as KotOR and Ragnos' mention in JK:A. These 2 sources expound upon the power of the ancient Sith. However, the mere fact that the sourcebook attempts to say there was only 2000 years of Sith history is outright wrong. It is contradicted by higher sources of canon and must be adjusted. DE fails to have this adjustment so we have to put it in context. That's all.
Double team him? Is that why Han Solo comfronted him while Luke was hard at work getting rid of Exar's spirit?
The reason for him becoming the spirit was also because he knew that there was no way to survive an onslaught of "all the jedi." It was never a narrative annotation that said he would "come back stronger than his physical form."
Hell, Nadd said he would come back and be stronger, then he got blasted by Kun. [/B]
Originally posted by Illustrious
As far as spirits being stronger than bodies, Corran even says in I, Jedi, "while disembodies, spirits can't affect the physical world."So how does this indicate Kun's spirit was more powerful than his physical form? The mere fact that Kun can impact the physical form as a wraith seems to indicate that he's more powerful than you give him credit for. Not to mention in that same book, he lifts Corran into the air and shatters his leg, not to mention Luke himself believed that Kun "controlled" Kyp, not tempted him with words.
What was that about answering what Illustrious and I posted?
Sorry, didn't know that stuff was posted, I only saw the last page
1. A trump card isn't slicing off someone's arm....If Dooku pulled a second blade to do it, THAT would be a trump card
2. No, my argument was that Vodo prepared for death. I never argued Vodo planned to die from the start.
3. Torr Snapit could also strenghten his staff. And Ood said he was happy to have gotten in that victory against Kun....hey, I agree Arca was stupid there, but he's certainly got some impressive stuff in. Plus, lightsaber combat isn't exactly force power.
4. Guide to characters: "Kun ordered a night beast to the isolation chambers." And in Classic Star Wars, it's abundantly clear Kalgrath is the same Massassi.
The 'But' wasn't to indicate a change of plans...it was just to say "I may not fully get this, but I can use the power!"
5. Considering the Tetans subsequently bombed the Sith to hell and back and Odan would've been busy on Ossus....it appears we have a continuity error. And proof Odan tried it on Kun? All we know is he drew on the light...that technqiue is NOT a force push. all we know is Odan tossed him back, saying "Away!"
6. So? He was there to KILL Ulic and Aleema, why dilly dally? And did he or did he not say "My hand is burned, but I feel no pain"?
7. I'd argue Sidious faked the lightning part completely. And we see Sidious's skill level drop alarmingly after Anakin is shown to arrive.
8. So? It's still written down clearly: Kun was using Makashi, written by David West Reynolds.
9. Luke by the point was deflecting AT AT shots with sabers, easing out of control star destroyers to the ground....he'd also opened himself fully to the Force at that point, more than most Jedi find in their entire lives.
10. You say: Jedi learn to block force chokes of other....hell the hell is Obi-wan hurled across the room by Dooku then? Though I agree, force choke is a telekenisis thing.
11. What feat does Tott duplicate? And when Tott is able to be felt fighting across the entire galaxy by every force sensitive alive...
12. So, where's all that info he took? I'm sure Freedon may've thought it of interest.
13. You can try whatever you want, but the facts remain: IT's written crystal clear Palpatine took what Kun had from Yavin and mastered what he did, from the Sith to the Jedi. There are no arguments here. It's written down in black and white, logic need not apply.
14. Feasible? Ok, why was he just about to be killed before he got the amulet? And in the Sith War, doesn't he imply to the knights he got Nadd with the amulets? (I just recall him showing them Nadd's death)...and with Odan, we see the hand with the amulet on it extended...
15. Prove. It. Luke already exhibited more force power than most anyone else in the EU. And godlike in terms of power, just after being described as so powerful in the dark side, he only lost by being exposed to the light because instead of fighting him, they protected him instead. And now defunct DE? Sorry, DE's still as canon as can be. It won't be defunct because that's how you want it.
16. Yeah, and KReia knew about Mace Windu? And Vaapad added quite a bit to Juyo, including channeling one's inner darkness....and yeah, Mace's unfamiliar with a double bladed saber...
17. Leia's battle meditation crushed an imperial force and was stated to be up to Nomi....and Exar had....an hour or so before the shockwave...would it'd have been THAT hard to blast Ood or spend several SECONDS dealing with him?
18. This is a strike against Sidious how exactly?
19. Kun didn't seem to think he was weakened at all and he was not an ordinary force spirit. Once more: He was tricked and trapped by Padawans who were already finishing him off when Vodo showed up.
20. Sorry, RPG sourcebook story info rules quite a bit and has been quite canonized in the EU. OF course if this is the case, not a word on the TOTJ sourcebook.
Continued
Kun drained the life from the Massassi. Indisputable.
No, Kun's ritual drained the life from the Massassi. Prove up that his spirit absorbed it or step off.
Gantoris was considered one of the best students...and who's to say HOW Kun killed him?
In the very beginning of the Academy. And he was found as a crispy critter, as I recall.
And Kun had the temple, not to mention left over Sith things to focus on
O RLY? And here I thought you claim Sidious took all of it. Consistency, anyone?
Except Bane was doing it with the COMBINED power of the other Sith Lords.
Got any, y'know, proof?
And what's your point about Odan-Urr? When was he ever strong? he hated combat and probably hadn't fought anyone in centuries. There is no proof either way that Vodo was tooled or the head of the order, by default or otherwise.
You leave yourself open to scan ownage.
3. Sorry, official source states he mastered every aspect. It's official, you are not.
Which official source is this hyperbole from again?
How in God's name can any one being master "every aspect of the Force?" What does that even mean, that he learned every power? Do you have any idea how long that would take? As I believe Janus stated, Sidious would have to be older than Bane for him to even come close to doing such a thing. Is this why he never used several powers the Ancients and Kun had performed which would've saved his leathery ass?
And STILL no explanation to why Kun never uses those blasts again.and Kun never sued that amulet again.
Tell me how this is relevant. He has done and can do it. You cannot prove otherwise so you try to muddy the waters with ridiculous insinuations.
5. So? Sidious knows Morichiro, an insta kill as well and Kun never sued that amulet again. Not to take into consideration what Sidious could bring into the fight and unleash....drainage, Morichiro, force crush....
Amulet blasts are instant. Exar pulled off an instakill with a wave of his hand. He froze a Senate of potentially millions of members. And he'd dice the hell out of Sidious in a saber fight.
Lying fanboys can't save Sidious.
Now, to Illustrious, sorry I missed your post:
You're confusing a move with a trump card....but yeah, using lightning right there could be considered a trump card.
2. He attacked Vodo with a weapon Vodo'd never seen before...I chalk some of this up to lazy animators though....it's about as ridiculous as the scale of the war itself.
3. Kalgrath is the giant Massassi ordered to the isolation chamber who later shows back up in the classic SW comic series. He later goes to Ziost to find his people and fails.
4. Yeah, what he did in TSW was genius....however he had no reason not to kill Aleema years before BEFORE Ragnos appeared and did the baptizing.
5. Well, I can agree with you, but consider this: Palp should know Mace as the biggest threat, but doesn't finish him first OR use his considerable force power. Also, we know the tension between Mace and Palp and until Ani is shown arriving, Mace is seen pushing Mace back and even leads him to the window and is bested just before Anakin comes in....maybe this is all coincidental, but still...
6. Ragnos is an eight or so feet tall mass of muscle, I'd put him against Durge in an arm wrestling contest...however, in the same passage, it describes Luke as momentously powerful-as well as earlier, we see him do some crazy stuff. He was wielding the power of the Force to an incredible degree and had his nephew and sister to fight for.
7. Remind me, which Tott feat was duplicated? Memory's a bit off....we've seen Tott show extreme mental prowess and saber skill...
8. The reason is: Sidious never considered the Rebels worthy of his full power and kept most of his dark side powers away from the empire at whole...his alchemy was confined to Byss and he used it as a feeding ground. He thought the Rebels ants, pretty much and Thrawn notes Palpatine used Battle MEditation...he was also focused on Luke at the time...in DE, Palpatine uses his powers to help tear NR forces to pieces
9. Illustrious, for the final time: DE NEVER says the Ancient Empire was that old, a sourcebook did. A sourcebook later retconned this. And not a sourcebook: The official Chronology. That's a new source, too...and DE has been filled in as well.
10. Well, Nadd WOULD have come back better...and his ghost thing was way different than Kun's...Kun still wanted to run rampant throughout the cosmos. Not only that, he had a LOT on Yavin to focus on.
11. My point is, that Kun was still using Kyp AND surprising Luke as a ghost...and Corran noted that before being proven very, very wrong. I actually like Kun very much, he's one of my top favorite Sith. However, I've never seen him as incredibly powerful....he was definitely not your average ghost
1. A trump card isn't slicing off someone's arm....If Dooku pulled a second blade to do it, THAT would be a trump card
Then as Illustrious said, Exar Kun, merely by using the other end of his weapon, was not pulling out a "trump card." It shows that he was in control of the fight for the entire duration. This is also known as toying with your enemy.
2. No, my argument was that Vodo prepared for death. I never argued Vodo planned to die from the start.
No, the premise of your original point was that because he became a spirit, Vodo must have given up the fight against Kun.
And Remind me where Vodo didn't give up against Exar Obi-wan style?
You've been QFT. You can't prove that and the source shows otherwise. QED.
3. Torr Snapit could also strenghten his staff. And Ood said he was happy to have gotten in that victory against Kun....hey, I agree Arca was stupid there, but he's certainly got some impressive stuff in. Plus, lightsaber combat isn't exactly force power.
Okay, he could strengthen his staff. Could he make it more powerful than a Lightsaber as Vodo did? (This is some evidence of the superiority of Sith War Jedi as opposed to Jedi that came afterwards).
The reason I listed those masters is because you keep mentioning them as opposed to Vodo for the "head of the order" position. Vodo is head and shoulders above them.
4. Guide to characters: "Kun ordered a night beast to the isolation chambers." And in Classic Star Wars, it's abundantly clear Kalgrath is the same Massassi.
The actual comic:
That's a big f'in Massassi. And he's not named. How, pray tell, would this Kalgrath remember jack about Ziost when Sadow's Massassi haven't had contact with the ancient Sith for a millenia? It's just as likely that it's a Massassi from Sadow's crew, moreso because Kun orders all Massassi to gather at the temple for him.
The 'But' wasn't to indicate a change of plans...it was just to say "I may not fully get this, but I can use the power!"
Glad you could join us to tell us exactly what the character is thinking, KJA.
I disagree. The point's irrelevant though, the original bit is that we were arguing over whether or not Kun trapped himself or whether it was the Jedi intervention. I maintain that it was the Jedi's "wall of light" attack.
5. Considering the Tetans subsequently bombed the Sith to hell and back and Odan would've been busy on Ossus....it appears we have a continuity error.
Except not, because according to his dialogue and logic, he assisted in a combat role in the war effort, beyond the events portrayed in FotSE. Why you're disputing this is beyond me.
And proof Odan tried it on Kun? All we know is he drew on the light...that technqiue is NOT a force push. all we know is Odan tossed him back, saying "Away!"
Jesus Christ.
So, reading the narration in the third image, what in God's name do you think he was using? It reads he tried the "bright power" as he just tried to teach Nomi. That's what he just got finished teaching her! He tried the force blocking technique, it didn't work. Indisputable. QED.
6. So? He was there to KILL Ulic and Aleema, why dilly dally?
As I maintain, Ulic was the greater threat. And how am I to intuit the inner motivations of a character, Lightsnake? I don't seem to have the divination powers you seem to possess.
And did he or did he not say "My hand is burned, but I feel no pain"?
He did, and moments later we see a closeup of said hand!
Does that look burned to you? Hell no.
7. I'd argue Sidious faked the lightning part completely. And we see Sidious's skill level drop alarmingly after Anakin is shown to arrive.
I submit that he faked everything between the time Anakin stepped into the room and the time Anakin sliced off Windu's hand.
But Windu put him on his ass legitimately.
8. So? It's still written down clearly: Kun was using Makashi, written by David West Reynolds.
Hm, that name doesn't appear to have the initials KJA. Fancy that.
My primary source material trumps your conjecture. Kun uses a unique style, get over it.
9. Luke by the point was deflecting AT AT shots with sabers, easing out of control star destroyers to the ground....he'd also opened himself fully to the Force at that point, more than most Jedi find in their entire lives.
This answers what, precisely, about my assertions regarding his saber dueling skills? Here it is again in case you've forgotten: In comparison to PT Jedi, Luke's an incompetant saber duelist until NJO.
10. You say: Jedi learn to block force chokes of other....hell the hell is Obi-wan hurled across the room by Dooku then? Though I agree, force choke is a telekenisis thing.
I said Jedi were taught to block the telekinesis of others. Obi-Wan is explained because of the vast power gap between the two combatants. He doesn't quite have Dooku's potential, in other words.
And God almighty, it's about time you dropped the "choke is not telekinesis" nonsense.
11. What feat does Tott duplicate? And when Tott is able to be felt fighting across the entire galaxy by every force sensitive alive...
... I'll quote myself, again.
You bandy about the fact that Luke can create shields with the Force with which to block laser blasts and the like. You treat it as evidence of his uberness.
So is Tott "Small Fry" Doneeta a Force god now? You still haven't answered that question.
12. So, where's all that info he took? I'm sure Freedon may've thought it of interest.
Gee, I don't know, I imagine he took it away in his ship perhaps? Then perhaps he stored it in the Yavin temples? And considering Freedon was interested in training Exar (until Exar destroys him) I'm sure he'd be more than helpful in helping Exar find the knowledge he desires.
13. You can try whatever you want, but the facts remain: IT's written crystal clear Palpatine took what Kun had from Yavin and mastered what he did, from the Sith to the Jedi. There are no arguments here. It's written down in black and white, logic need not apply.
The last four words are key, apparently.
I'll just quote Janus:
2- First, prove that Sidious mastered EVERY aspect of the Sith and the Jedi. Not only is it impossible, but it's unlikely, improbable, and it opens up all sorts of questions like "Why did he need to take power in the shadows?" "Why did he have to have Anakin and Clone troops kill the jedi if he was that uber?" "Why did he rely on superweapons if he had the knowledge of Sith Lords who could toy with stars using their trinkets?" "Why did he let Mace beat his ass and melt his face if he was so damn knowledgable and uber?" "Why why why why?"Why? Cuz he doesn't know all of it. That's bullshit. And Morichiro, the fabled Force technique, is not a symbol of power. Yaddle knew of it. I doubt Ragnos, who stepped all over Simus (Who could maintain himself as a living head for over a century) would be pwned by Morichiro. So please, give it up.
And my point stands. It'd take him multiple millenia to do such a thing. Palpatine is decidedly not that old.
14. Feasible? Ok, why was he just about to be killed before he got the amulet? And in the Sith War, doesn't he imply to the knights he got Nadd with the amulets? (I just recall him showing them Nadd's death)...and with Odan, we see the hand with the amulet on it extended...
Answering in order!
Feasible, yes. Because he hadn't yet embraced the Dark Side. He implies a lot of things to the knights, such as the amulet is actually a jedi amulet (he actually uses it to project himself killing Nadd, he doesn't tell them how he did it), and in TSW, Exar Kun had at least two amulets, one for each hand. There is no proof that his instakill was an amulet attack, especially since a big freaking beam didn't rip out of it.
Proof of at least two amulets (check the above scan with Nadd for first part):
Note that the original amulet Kun retrieves goes on his left hand, but in this scan he has a similar one on his right hand.
I circled the earring as pure speculation. He doesn't have it in Dark Lords of the Sith and I'm hesitant to believe he wears it for decoration. But I can't prove that it's force-enhancing.
Continued..
15. Prove. It. Luke already exhibited more force power than most anyone else in the EU. And godlike in terms of power, just after being described as so powerful in the dark side, he only lost by being exposed to the light because instead of fighting him, they protected him instead. And now defunct DE? Sorry, DE's still as canon as can be. It won't be defunct because that's how you want it.
Oh, did he? Has our farmboy blown up any stars lately? Crushed any statues? Frozen a great multitude? Projected tangible illusions?
Here is the point: DE was written before TOTJ (and other EU). TOTJ, along with correcting DE's chronology, places many previously "godlike" Force users in context with the truly godlike of the ancient Sith and Jedi, etc. Individuals like Ragnos, Sadow, Kressh, Nadd, Kun, Arca, Sunrider, Qel-Droma, Vodo, etc. have been presented as comparable or, in many cases, more powerful than individuals from previous EU.
To quote Illustrious, who put it better than me:
It's retconned because the dates. are. off.The Sourcebook and DE does not reference the existence of an ANCIENT SITH EMPIRE that existed far before the dates provided. In fact, in the sourcebook, they even went so far as to EXCLUDE their existence. Ergo, when Anderson made them exist, he had to fudge around with their prior timeline, making the entire comparison in DE moot when put into continuity with the older sith.
You arguing that I can't prove it doesn't mean I haven't.
16. Yeah, and KReia knew about Mace Windu? And Vaapad added quite a bit to Juyo, including channeling one's inner darkness....and yeah, Mace's unfamiliar with a double bladed saber...
You think Mace Windu could take Hord, for example, when the KOTOR-era Jedi, while weakened from the loss of ancient masters and Ossus, are described as children playing with toys in comparison? KOTOR-era Jedi who are battle-hardened and more experienced in lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat than are PT Jedi? Right.
And Mace should be unfamiliar with a double-bladed saber. Other than in ridiculous videogames, it's not a common weapon. This is not to mention that Kun's is even more unique given that it's a short-hilted, thereby less vulnerable, design.
17. Leia's battle meditation crushed an imperial force and was stated to be up to Nomi....and Exar had....an hour or so before the shockwave...would it'd have been THAT hard to blast Ood or spend several SECONDS dealing with him?
And when was this, exactly? And how does her battle meditation, if it's on par with Sunrider's (who the hell made this comparison? Almost nobody in Star Wars is that old), make her as powerful in the Force as Sunrider?
And it was obvious Exar was in a hurry, given he states things like "We have little time to take it all for ourselves!" and "We don't have time to waste."
Even if he had blasted Ood, that would've potentially destroyed the treasures he sought underneath Ood. Where's the benefit for Exar?
18. This is a strike against Sidious how exactly
My original point was you made ridiculous claims about Exar Kun sending minions to do his work, such as his Jedi assassination orders, and that this somehow indicates that he's weak.
I pointed out that Sidious himself could've assaulted the Coruscant temple instead of Vader. There's your context.
19. Kun didn't seem to think he was weakened at all and he was not an ordinary force spirit. Once more: He was tricked and trapped by Padawans who were already finishing him off when Vodo showed up.
And Kun was also 4000 years old and half-mad from isolation. You have no proof that Kun's power stayed the same, and indeed with what we know about his capabilities while alive, it's obvious he lost power or he would've tooled everyone in the Jedi Academy with a flick of his wrist.
Once more: This is irrelevant. Kun is not a weakened, 4000 year old, half-mad spirit in this fight.
20. Sorry, RPG sourcebook story info rules quite a bit and has been quite canonized in the EU. OF course if this is the case, not a word on the TOTJ sourcebook.
I guess I have to quote Janus again.
No, this is bullshit. Now you're arguing the Dark Side Sourcebook, which is a handbook for the WotC RPG, saying random statements in it overide TOTJ? Are you nuts? RPG canon is NOT canon at all!
Let's go over this AGAIN:The Holocron's database field is divided into four levels: G-canon, C-canon, S-canon, and N-canon. G, C and S together form an overall continuity. Each ascending level overrides the lower ones. e.g. Boba Fett's back story was radically altered with the release of Attack of the Clones, forcing retconning of older source material to fall in line with the new G-canon back story.
G-canon is absolute canon; the movies and anything coming directly from George Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements coming directly from Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon (see below).
When the matter of changes between movie versions is brought up, the remastered editions are deemed superior to the theatrical ones, since they correct mistakes and improve consistency between the two trilogies. They also express Lucas' original intention and also final word.
C-canon is pretty much everything in the Expanded Universe: Star Wars books, comics, games, cartoons, and more. Games are a special case as generally only the stories are C-canon while things like stats and gameplay may not be. C-canon elements have been known to appear in the movies, thus making them G-canon. (This includes: the name "Coruscant," swoop bikes, Quinlan Vos, Aayla Secura, YT-2400 freighters, Salporin, and Action VI Transports.)S-canon is "secondary" canon; the story itself is considered non-continuity, but the non-contradicting elements are still a canon part of the Star Wars universe. This includes things like the popular online roleplaying game Star Wars Galaxies and certain elements of a few N-canon stories.
N-canon is "non-canon." What-if stories (such as stories published under the Infinities label), some game stats, fanon, and anything else directly contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N-canon is the only level that is not considered canon by Lucasfilm.
Let me point out the definition for C-canon: Games are a special case in which things like states and gameplay may not be canon but stories are. Since roleplaying games and their sourcebooks are staging grounds for fictional, out of continuity individual roleplaying sessions for the amusement of private parties, they should not be considered canon AT ALL. In fact, I would argue that sourcebooks for roleplaying games (obsolete or not) fall under S-canon, and while they may not contradict the EU licensed universe, they do not reflect it either.
