Silverspider/Dizzle's Team Tounrament: Round 1, Fight 2- DarkCrawler vs. illadelph12

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
"I could [b]hear her heartbeat from a mile away." Sounds like he has super-hearing to me...

Karnak also has a state of awareness (like you said) where he could tell Zero where he is, because your team's flaws (physical, psychological, geological, doesn't matter, he knows ALL the flaws) would appear like beacons to him.
http://img42.imageshack.us/my.php?image=karnak87xz.gif [/B]

That scan shows Karnak putting his ear up against a wall, and a worm popping out of the ground at Blackbolt. No where does it say Karnak can hear a heartbeat from a kilometer away. All it displays is Karnak telling a fellow Inhuman that everyone and everything has flaws but Blackbolt. No where does it show that Karnak can use these abilities over a long distance, let alone from up in a tree. It shows him putting his ear to a stone wall.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Flaws here too.

Would Karate Kid really be able to hear the heartbeats with the thunderclaps messing up his senses? I doubt it. You said that he can hear a heartbeat from a mile away. Well, a thunderclap's sound is about 10,000,000 times stronger then heartbeat. Karate Kid shouldn't be able to operate with the thunderclaps. And he sure as hell couldn't concetrate on individual heartbeats...

Oh, and a sonic clap is only as good as the medium it transfers through, in this instance air. If Thing claps continuously, the sonics will become weaker with each successive clap, because the previous clap's forces (at the magnitude you are having Thing clap) will force the air out of his proximity, giving the sound waves less air to travel through. Displacement of air would cause a form of a vacuum (since Thing is continually clapping), and the sound would have less of a medium to resonate through and increasingly become weaker.

http://www.tpub.com/neets/book10/39e.htm

^ Physics.

Couple that with the fact that the rest of the forest is on fire and the oxygen supply is being burned away and replaced with smoke, and well.

Originally posted by life is cruell
Ill how is your team taking out blitzkrieg?

Blitzkrieg would be the last to fall. With the smoke, visibility is going to be very low, which gives KK and Gamora the cover they need to do their handy work on Thing, Karnak and Agent Zero. Monolith can blast Blitzkrieg into submission. Blitzkrieg can only sustain his shields for a manner of minutes, he still needs to breath, and none of his attacks can hurt Monolith.

Originally posted by illadelph12
If Thing claps continuously, the sonics will become weaker with each successive clap, because the previous clap's forces (at the magnitude you are having Thing clap) will force the air out of his proximity, giving the sound waves less air to travel through. Displacement of air would cause a form of a vacuum (since Thing is continually clapping), and the sound would have less of a medium to resonate through and increasingly become weaker.

there is no way in hell that Thing is going to cause a vacuum by clapping his hands together, it'll cause a shock-wave that travels out omnidirectionally.... but definitely not a vacuum

Originally posted by Scoobless
there is no way in hell that Thing is going to cause a vacuum by clapping his hands together, it'll cause a shock-wave that travels out omnidirectionally.... but definitely not a vacuum

You're misinterpreting my words.

The force of the clap (the impact/shockwave) will force the air out of the area. Causing air displacement. I don't mean a vacuum like outer space, I mean vacuum as in absence of air. By continually clapping, he'll force more and more air out of the area. Each successive clap will have less air to resonate the soundwaves through, and will be less powerful than the previous. He's not going to create an actual vaccum, but each clap after the initial clap will decrease in potency as more and more air is forced out of the area by the shockwave generated by the impacts of his hands.

Compressed air being forced outward in a burning forest which would be depleting the air supply anyway.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Thing doesn't have super-speed, there is going to be a period of time between each clap, because Thing has to draw his arms back and thrust them forward full force. He''t thunderclap every second, it takes effort. It's all about timing and concentration.

Actually, Things hands have a degree of super-speed. He is able to catch tank shells out of the air, for example. And it doesn't take any more effort then you and me clapping our hands together. We clap our hands together, it causes a sound. Thing claps his hands together, sound he makes is hundred times better...

Gamora has increased senses too, doesn't she?

If she wants to shoot Thing down, she needs to come close to him. Which would cause her fall down to the ground too. Here is how a miniscule thunderclap affected Wolverine:
http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/8894/thunderclap5rn.gif

Karate Kid has probably ten times better hearing then Wolverine has, from what I have seen, and Thing is stronger then Grey Hulk, and can make way bigger thunderclap...he has good chances of dropping Karate Kid from afar. I'm not sure how good senses Gamora has. From what I have seen you write though, she seems to have good ones.

But Karate Kid shouldn't be able to come to half a mile's radius Thing without passing out.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Actually, Things hands have a degree of super-speed. He is able to catch tank shells out of the air, for example. And it doesn't take any more effort then you and me clapping our hands together. We clap our hands together, it causes a sound. Thing claps his hands together, sound he makes is hundred times better...

Gamora has increased senses too, doesn't she?

If she wants to shoot Thing down, she needs to come close to him. Which would cause her fall down to the ground too. Here is how a miniscule thunderclap affected Wolverine:
http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/8894/thunderclap5rn.gif

Karate Kid has probably ten times better hearing then Wolverine has, from what I have seen, and Thing is stronger then Grey Hulk, and can make way bigger thunderclap...he has good chances of dropping Karate Kid from afar. I'm not sure how good senses Gamora has. From what I have seen you write though, she seems to have good ones.

But Karate Kid shouldn't be able to come to half a mile's radius Thing without passing out.

If Thing is going to be standing out in a clearing clapping until we come upon his position, I don't have to come out into the open to shoot him, I have a clear shot at him. Gamora's blasters and Monolith's blasts don't have a 6 foot range on them. She's sniped people as well. Agent X isn't the only assassin on the battlefield. A laser blast to the eye coupled with an ass whoopin' by KK is going to put Thing down.

It's very simple:

Monolith blast the trees Karnak and Blitzkrieg are hiding in. Gamora shoots Thing in the eyes with her blaster, KK moves in and opens a can of whoop ass on Thing as Agent Zero tries to plug him for coming out in the open. Karate Kid hear's A-Z cocking his weapons and moves in a manner in which A-Z inadvertently shoots Thing with an adamantium bullet (like he had Mon El bring down the boulders on himself), and now Thing is dead or gravely injured, Agent Zero has given up his position, Karnak has fallen 100+ feet, and Blitzkrieg has either fallen or used his lightning powers to fly/create a construct and has lit up the area he is in with his lightning, giving away his position.

To generate the magnitude of thunderclap you are talking about, Thing is going to have to draw his arms full back and follow through full force. It's a full motion, it's not instantaneous. If he's doing it continuously, as I stated before, each subsequent clap will be less potent than the previous due to the medium the clap resonates through dissipating due to the fire and Thing forcing the air out of his proximity with his claps. If he's just standing there clapping the whole time until I get to him, by the time I arrive the claps won't be at full potency anyway. The initial clap took place before my arrival.

Wolverine is like 6-10 feet away from Hulk in that pic. You're talking about creating a giant shockwave so I won't be able to come within a half mile of Thing. I don't think Thing can do this to the magnitude you are saying.

Originally posted by illadelph12
If Thing is going to be standing out in a clearing clapping until we come upon his position, I don't have to come out into the open to shoot him, I have a clear shot at him. Gamora's blasters and Monolith's blasts don't have a 6 foot range on them. She's sniped people as well. Agent X isn't the only assassin on the battlefield. A laser blast to the eye coupled with an ass whoopin' by KK is going to put Thing down.

It's very simple:

Monolith blast the trees Karnak and Blitzkrieg are hiding in. Gamora shoots Thing in the eyes with her blaster, KK moves in and opens a can of whoop ass on Thing as Agent Zero tries to plug him for coming out in the open. Karate Kid hear's A-Z cocking his weapons and moves in a manner in which A-Z inadvertently shoots Thing with an adamantium bullet (like he had Mon El bring down the boulders on himself), and now Thing is dead or gravely injured, Agent Zero has given up his position, Karnak has fallen 100+ feet, and Blitzkrieg has either fallen or used his lightning powers to fly/create a construct and has lit up the area he is in with his lightning, giving away his position.

To generate the magnitude of thunderclap you are talking about, Thing is going to have to draw his arms full back and follow through full force. It's a full motion, it's not instantaneous. If he's doing it continuously, as I stated before, each subsequent clap will be less potent than the previous due to the medium the clap resonates through dissipating due to the fire and Thing forcing the air out of his proximity with his claps. If he's just standing there clapping the whole time until I get to him, by the time I arrive the claps won't be at full potency anyway. The initial clap took place before my arrival.

You don't know where Agent Zero or Blitzkrieg are. Karate Kid is on the ground holding his bleeding ears. Seriously, it causes pain to normal people. Karate Kid has like thousand times better hearing. Even if he was able to stay conscious, he sure as hell isn't able to hear cocking of a gun or individual hearbeats. Even after one thunderclap, Karate Kid isn't going to be able to operate.

Thing is standing on open area, yes, but there are still trees around him. To snipe Thing, Gamora would have to come near the area. They can't shoot him when they can't see him behind the trees. And then they would have to come at the radius of thunderclaps and gets her ears shattered. Even claps without full potency (Like in the picture with Grey Hulk) are enough to mess up the senses of super-hearing people. Even people with normal senses are messed up by thunderclaps.
http://img226.echo.cx/img226/6572/shockwavethunderclap11a8wh.jpg

Originally posted by illadelph12

Wolverine is like 6-10 feet away from Hulk in that pic. You're talking about creating a giant shockwave so I won't be able to come within a half mile of Thing. I don't think Thing can do this to the magnitude you are saying.

If Grey Hulk, who is weaker then Thing, can peacefully clap his hands and cause something like that, Thing is able to cause much, much more by making a big clap. And I weren't saying that you couldn't come within half a mile from Thing. But Karate Kid (Or Gamora), with his heightened hearing can't.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
You don't know where Agent Zero or Blitzkrieg are. Karate Kid is on the ground holding his bleeding ears. Seriously, it causes pain to normal people. Karate Kid has like thousand times better hearing. Even if he was able to stay conscious, he sure as hell isn't able to hear cocking of a gun or [b]individual hearbeats. Even after one thunderclap, Karate Kid isn't going to be able to operate.

Thing is standing on open area, yes, but there are still trees around him. To snipe Thing, Gamora would have to come near the area. They can't shoot him when they can't see him behind the trees. And then they would have to come at the radius of thunderclaps and gets her ears shattered. Even claps without full potency (Like in the picture with Grey Hulk) are enough to mess up the senses of super-hearing people. Even people with normal senses are messed up by thunderclaps.
http://img226.echo.cx/img226/6572/shockwavethunderclap11a8wh.jpg

If Grey Hulk, who is weaker then Thing, can peacefully clap his hands and cause something like that, Thing is able to cause much, much more by making a big clap. And I weren't saying that you couldn't come within half a mile from Thing. But Karate Kid (Or Gamora), with his heightened hearing can't. [/B]

It's going to cause pain to Agent Zero and Blitzkrieg as well. They all have a sense of hearing too, and they're also all on your side of the battlefield closest to Thing. The only two people on the battlefield it won't effect are Thing and Monolith, and Thing is still out in the open and making his position very obvious. Sniping Thing and having KK beat the crap out of him will still work. There is a perimeter to the effects of the thunderclap, and he's standing unguarded in the middle of a clearing. All I have to do is set up shop at the edge of the treeline under cover and shoot Ben in the eyes, which will stun and distract him and give KK the opening he needs.

Also, KK has a high tolerance for pain when he enters his super karate mode. His body isn't extremely durable to physical abuse like explosions, impacts, etc., but he's able to handle physical pain by focussing. It's mind over matter. Also, KK doesn't have a genetically enhanced or mutated sense of hearing, he still has a normal sense of heaing like any human, his is simply highly trained. The sonics won't effect him more than they would a normal person, and KK is able to deal with pain far better than any normal person, effectively blocking it out (as Karnak can).

And that's not a "peaceful clap" by Grey Hulk. The illustration clearly shows motion lines of the path of Hulk's hands that go from behind his body to in front of him. It takes a full motion, it's not a casual clap like applauding, he has to draw his arms back and thrust them forward with full momentum for maximum effect. Thing's going to tire himself out from the exertion of doing this continually.

And another thing, using Grey Hulk as an example isn't a good source. Grey Hulk's base strength is around 75 tons, but he can still increase his strength through anger like any other Hulk. There's no way of quantifying how strong Grey Hulk was at the time of doing that thunderclap because he was angry and engaged in a fight with Wolverine at the time, and the effects only struck Wolverine who was maybe 10feet away at best. We'd need to see Thing performing the thunderclap to see how widespread the effects would be. Grey Hulk could have been at class 200 in that scan for all we know, he's obviously enraged.

Originally posted by illadelph12
And another thing, using Grey Hulk as an example isn't a good source. Grey Hulk's base strength is around 75 tons, but he can still increase his strength through anger like any other Hulk. There's no way of quantifying how strong Grey Hulk was at the time of doing that thunderclap because he was angry and engaged in a fight with Wolverine at the time, and the effects only struck Wolverine who was maybe 10feet away at best. We'd need to see Thing performing the thunderclap to see how widespread the effects would be. Grey Hulk could have been at class 200 in that scan for all we know, he's obviously enraged.

Actually their is , we just check the issue and see how pissed he is.....

Originally posted by illadelph12
And another thing, using Grey Hulk as an example isn't a good source. Grey Hulk's base strength is around 75 tons, but he can still increase his strength through anger like any other Hulk. There's no way of quantifying how strong Grey Hulk was at the time of doing that thunderclap because he was angry and engaged in a fight with Wolverine at the time, and the effects only struck Wolverine who was maybe 10feet away at best. We'd need to see Thing performing the thunderclap to see how widespread the effects would be. Grey Hulk could have been at class 200 in that scan for all we know, he's obviously enraged.

Here's something I thought...

The decibel record of a human clapping is 106.9 decibels. That would be a same as a sound of someone shouting direct at your ear. Average human male's strength is about 110 pounds, I think. Thing is about 1700 times stronger then a normal human male. Okay. I am not really an expert on the decibel chart, so tell me if I am going wrong with this but wouldn't Thing's claps have roughly 1700 times bigger decibel rating, since his claps have 1700 times more force put on them? That would be really high number, thought. I'm not sure if it is right.

Originally posted by illadelph12
It's going to cause pain to Agent Zero and Blitzkrieg as well. They all have a sense of hearing too, and they're also all on your side of the battlefield closest to Thing. The only two people on the battlefield it won't effect are Thing and Monolith, and Thing is still out in the open and making his position very obvious. Sniping Thing and having KK beat the crap out of him will still work. There is a perimeter to the effects of the thunderclap, and he's standing unguarded in the middle of a clearing. All I have to do is set up shop at the edge of the treeline under cover and shoot Ben in the eyes, which will stun and distract him and give KK the opening he needs.

Also, KK has a high tolerance for pain when he enters his super karate mode. His body isn't extremely durable to physical abuse like explosions, impacts, etc., but he's able to handle physical pain by focussing. It's mind over matter. Also, KK doesn't have a genetically enhanced or mutated sense of hearing, he still has a normal sense of heaing like any human, his is simply highly trained. The sonics won't effect him more than they would a normal person, and KK is able to deal with pain far better than any normal person, effectively blocking it out (as Karnak can).

And that's not a "peaceful clap" by Grey Hulk. The illustration clearly shows motion lines of the path of Hulk's hands that go from behind his body to in front of him. It takes a full motion, it's not a casual clap like applauding, he has to draw his arms back and thrust them forward with full momentum for maximum effect. Thing's going to tire himself out from the exertion of doing this continually.

Agent Zero's vibranium armor will protect him from the sonic claps. And Blitzkrieg has his shields, the height he is in and the shielding of the tree to not be hurt by the sonic claps. Plus he could just shield his ears since he knows that Thing is thunderclapping.

And I still don't know how you can say that Karate Kid doesn't have better hearing then normal persons. Even though it is result of training, it is still much, much, much more sophisticated then normal humans have. He can pick up heartbeats from a mile away. Think about what something that is 100000 times more powerful then the sound of a heart beat will cause. If he is concetrating on trying to find my team through hearing, thunderclaps will affect him more then they would affect an normal person. The pain that will hit his ears will be sudden and shattering, and I don't think he has time to adjust to it. If Gamora also shoots Thing in the eye, she will make her presence known and is taken down by Zero. If Karate Kid isn't already dead by the thunderclap sounds and attacks Thing, he is taken down by Blitzkrieg. The smoke and fire have been cleared by the constant thunderclaps, so they will have a good visibility.

It's very close, both have made good points!

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Here's something I thought...

The decibel record of a human clapping is 106.9 decibels. That would be a same as a sound of someone shouting direct at your ear. Average human male's strength is about 110 pounds, I think. Thing is about 1700 times stronger then a normal human male. Okay. I am not really an expert on the decibel chart, so tell me if I am going wrong with this but wouldn't Thing's claps have roughly 1700 times bigger decibel rating, since his claps have 1700 times more force put on them? That would be really high number, thought. I'm not sure if it is right.

Originally posted by illadelph12
You're misinterpreting my words.

The force of the clap (the impact/shockwave) will force the air out of the area. Causing air displacement. I don't mean a vacuum like outer space, I mean vacuum as in absence of air. By continually clapping, he'll force more and more air out of the area. Each successive clap will have less air to resonate the soundwaves through, and will be less powerful than the previous. He's not going to create an actual vaccum, but each clap after the initial clap will decrease in potency as more and more air is forced out of the area by the shockwave generated by the impacts of his hands.

Compressed air being forced outward in a burning forest which would be depleting the air supply anyway.

Air is predominantly inert nitrogen, and while the fire may change the composition, increasing CO2 and CO and decreasing O2 I don't think it would have any major affect on air compression (?).

Will vote soon. Very close. Very hard to decide.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
The decibel scale is logarithmic.
I'm not sure if this would work, they're in an open area. He'd have to displace the air faster than air movement due to the pressure gradient replaces it. The vacuum of space is essentially very low gaseous pressure i.e. an absence of "air".

Air is predominantly inert nitrogen, and while the fire may change the composition, increasing CO2 and CO and decreasing O2 I don't think it would have any major affect on air compression (?).

Will vote soon. Very close. Very hard to decide.

Yes, but you also have to take into account:

1) The forest is on fire, so the air supply is being consumed and replaced with smoke, which is not as good a medium for soundwaves as air.

2) We're in a forest and there are large dense objects all around that are dissipating the effects of the shockwave.

3) The shockwave has a blast radius, and gets weaker the further the sound gets from the epicenter (Thing).

4) The heat from the fire will refract the soundwaves upwards towards cooler air:
(http://apollo.lsc.vsc.edu/classes/met130/notes/chapter15/refraction2.html)

5) Sound travels faster in warm air, so the effects of the claps will dissipate rather quickly : (http://www.physicsclassroom.com/Class/sound/u11l3d.html)

Physics is our friend.

As I said in an earlier post, I can snipe Thing from the radius of his shockwave with a blaster to the eyes. He's standing in a clearing unguarded, it's a very easy shot. Once he's stunned (and blinded), KK and Gamora go Ninja on dat ass as Monolith blasts all the trees in the area with concussive force blasts.

The only member of DC's team that could be near Thing during his clap session is arguably Agent Zero, but that's highly debatable because he can hear and carry on conversations while wearing his mask, which would imply that his mask is both not soundproofed and not solid vibranium. Blitzkrieg's shields are not sound proof either, so he'd have to be at a safe distance as well. It's no problem, really, as they are up in the trees. Blitzkrieg does not have superhuman reflexes or senses either.

Very close. Too close. Can't decide yet.

If the thread is closed and a winner needs to be declared before I next come look... I am voting by proxy with whatever the majority of the other 3 judges decide.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Very close. Too close. Can't decide yet.

If the thread is closed and a winner needs to be declared before I next come look... I am voting by proxy with whatever the majority of the other 3 judges decide.

wow.... what a cop out

why have judges if they aren't going to cast their votes?

Originally posted by illadelph12
Yes, but you also have to take into account:

1) The forest is on fire, so the air supply is being consumed and replaced with smoke, which is not as good a medium for soundwaves as air.

2) We're in a forest and there are large dense objects all around that are dissipating the effects of the shockwave.

3) The shockwave has a blast radius, and gets weaker the further the sound gets from the epicenter (Thing).

4) The heat from the fire will refract the soundwaves upwards towards cooler air:
(http://apollo.lsc.vsc.edu/classes/met130/notes/chapter15/refraction2.html)

5) Sound travels faster in warm air, so the effects of the claps will dissipate rather quickly : (http://www.physicsclassroom.com/Class/sound/u11l3d.html)

Physics is our friend.

As I said in an earlier post, I can snipe Thing from the radius of his shockwave with a blaster to the eyes. He's standing in a clearing unguarded, it's a very easy shot. Once he's stunned (and blinded), KK and Gamora go Ninja on dat ass as Monolith blasts all the trees in the area with concussive force blasts.

The only member of DC's team that could be near Thing during his clap session is arguably Agent Zero, but that's highly debatable because he can hear and carry on conversations while wearing his mask, which would imply that his mask is both not soundproofed and not solid vibranium. Blitzkrieg's shields are not sound proof either, so he'd have to be at a safe distance as well. It's no problem, really, as they are up in the trees. Blitzkrieg does not have superhuman reflexes or senses either.

You haven't still been able to prove that Karate Kid doesn't have increased hearing. Explain it to me - how can he hear something from a mile away if he doesn't have it. If it would have said that he sensed the heartbeat, then you would have a point, but it specifically mentioned his hearing. Now, Thing's claps make a sound of hundred times louder then the loudest human clap - which was close to human threshold of pain. Thing's claps would break the threshold hundreds of times. Karate Kid is not able to focus on individual sounds, especially heartbeats, so they wouldn't know that there is anyone in the trees.

And 100 feet is only thirty and a half meters. Under (very) optimal conditions, human line of sight is nearly miles. In conditions like this it would be far less, but not so bad that he wouldn't be able to see your teammates from feets away. The smoke and fire from Thing's area have been cleared within the first thunderclap. Blitzkrieg can see your teammates from quite afar. And he certainly would be able to see them further away then 100 feet.