Shaman Nate Gray vs Silver Surfer.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Nate has never shown power on the level of Dark Phoenix (who was a capped Phoenix anyway) So as far as we have seen, Moiras prediction was never confirmed 😬

Since we are in the talk of feats, and known displays of power. What where the feats Dark Phoenix showed us?

Consuming a star? Nate overloaded an Elder God in battle. And yet with limitations, (because mind you Nate powers are limited), apparently at capped levels. His powers are more then enough to destroy the Harverster who is harnessing the energy of the Earth and its inhabits. shock

Originally posted by id369
Oh I mentioned two feats, I’ll break them down to keep members from getting confused.
X-Man #40
Tundra’s formal introduction along with Nate.

And this is when Tundra attempted to eat Nate Grey, but was overloaded in the processes.

-------------------------

X-Man #75
The Harvester is a billion’s year old alien entity, who’s purpose are to prepare a planet and when its ripe absorb the planets energy. Not just the planets energy, but its inhabitants as well this included the quantum leap in genetics known as mutants.

The interesting part, a being composed of so much energy rightfully admits that he can not win a match against X-Man.

The Harvester must have had considerable amount of power, from Earths totality. This is if you consider just how Earth seems to be populated by fairly strong super humans, besides the mutants population prior to M-Day.

Essentially X-Man single handedly stopped a world threat, and it is acknowledged out side his own series. I know the art, and the plot was poorly done and out right rushed. None the less it has some points, member should consider, if you want to keep in mind just where Nate Grey stands in his tier placement.

@llagrok - I guess your right, splitting his life force into every sentient being on Earth must fall short for a feat done regularly by the Surfer. But I guess I am just impressed, that it takes place when he willfully decided to unleash those energies, and dismantle their essence into every cell of every living organism. Nice energy manipulation in a desperate moment I would say, but the sheer number of splitting their essence must be staggering. That’s if you try to work the numbers, and find out how many cells the earth is made off.

Overloading Tundra is impressive, the rest simply isn't.

The Harvest just wasn't THAT impressive and feeding off Earth isn't enough to properly gauge his power.

Originally posted by id369
Pay vary vary close attention my friend.

Your misunderstanding the reason why extrapolation or prediction if you will is taking place. Not to judge the boys power, that much is already done. His power was registered and clocked. It makes no sense, to predict on a power that is registered. Nor is it mentioned [B]ANYWHERE that his power will grow.[/B]

There is no misunderstanding here ID.

Not on my behalf anyway. I have the comic, i know what was going on and what was talked about.

You say it makes no sense to predict power thats registered because its not mentioned that it will grow.

Come on now ID. You know yourself that it was always stated that Nate had great potential within his early comic appearances.

You've read the series i'm assuming, so you've seen for yourself how Nates displays of power have increased from his early days up until his last issue.

He was not in a static state. A few pages before the Dark Phoenix comparison, its even stated that he has potential:

"Like none i have ever encountered..so great is his potential"

To have potential, you must have room for growth. Your point is discredited in the same comic so the point is non debatable.

The point is furthered discredited in Cable #30 the very next issue:

"This growing power"

Non debatable.

Originally posted by id369
The reason for extrapolating, predicting, or as you say playing weather girl. Using the known data, that Moria obtained in X-Man #12. She is predicting her theory of the boys body going into critical mass, since his body is not meant to handle those awesome powers.

That my friend, is the reason for extrapolation.

Regardless of whether she extrapolated from his current(at the time of the issue) power level to look at him simple growing up and getting more powerful or to see how his body was eventually going to critical mass, it is irrelevant. Either case is a power growth from his level at the time.

Nate got increasingly more powerful over the course of his series, Nate wasn't constantly at critical mass, it was a point he could potentially reach as he used his power at higher levels.

So with that in mind. Moira extrapolated from Nates current readings and the results were visualised by a holo-graph.

The results matched the records for Dark Phoenix.

The extrapolation was the exercise of predicting the future state of his powers, based on his current power level activity.

The results matched Dark Phoenix in comparison.

That is all.

Originally posted by id369
Good debate, hope that cleared up the confusion. -Id

Couldnt have said it better myself 😉

Originally posted by llagrok
Overloading Tundra is impressive, the rest simply isn't.

The Harvest just wasn't THAT impressive and feeding off Earth isn't enough to properly gauge his power.

👆 ✅

Is it possible that Moria machine worked with a certain limit for instance lets say it can gauge a level of power to 1000, lets just say that Dark Phoenix was at 10.000 and Nates at 2000, wouldn't the machine in that case give the same result since both exceeded what it was capable of processing?

Originally posted by Utrigita
Is it possible that Moria machine worked with a certain limit for instance lets say it can gauge a level of power to 1000, lets just say that Dark Phoenix was at 10.000 and Nates at 2000, wouldn't the machine in that case give the same result since both exceeded what it was capable of processing?

I see what you're saying.

The machine could have limits and both of them could have given readings that were off the scale.

But the readings from Dark Phoenix were actual power levels for the time.

Nates power activity was monitored and from those readings Moira estimated what Nates power output could be. This forecast matched Dark Phoenixes reading that was on record(taken before she consumed a star.)

It was an estimate, a possibility, she never actually said that Nates power level matched up. She was saying based on her readings she has forecast that it could be.

Your right in the part that in other scans, specifically state Nate Grey power is growing. But this is irrelevant now, since those are just opinions and narrated comments. What is being talked about here, are Moira reading from when she tested Nate. Her findings, not expressed opinions. No where is it mentioned that she has a static reading, just a reading matching a previous data otherwise known as the Phoenix Energy readings.

And no I cant say, Nate power was visually shown to increase up until he merged with alternate Nate. The only increment seen, was his self awareness and his ability to better comprehend his power. Which is understandable, since he has virtually no training at all on top of being kept in cell or lab most of his life.

1) Does Nate Telekinesis really rival the Phoenix.
Answer: According to Moira calculations it does.

We can dance around, and try to swing each others explanations to see which one will either finally give in or give up. To me a topic that has bin ironed out for the last 4 pages, no longer seems worth the effort.

You want to believe extrapolate is being referred to his power eventually building up to the Phoenix level, by my guest. Personally I cant agree, for the simple fact that extrapolation is being used with hard evidence. The hard evidence is Nate and Phoenix clocked readings. The hard evidence, is being referenced for the extrapolation, other wise known as the prediction of his body no longer being able to cope with his power.

Nate’s does seem to have an incredible amount of power, Andy. Tragically, it’s too much for one person to contain, which is what Moria Mactaggert discovered in the past issue.

Originally posted by id369
Your right in the part that in other scans, specifically state Nate Grey power is growing. But this is irrelevant now, since those are just opinions and narrated comments. What is being talked about here, are Moira reading from when she tested Nate. Her findings, no expressed opinions. No where is it mentioned that she has a static reading, just a reading matching a previous data otherwise known as the Phoenix Energy readings.

And no I cant say, Nate power was visually shown to increase up until he merged with alternate Nate. The only increment seen, was his self awareness and his ability to better comprehend his power. Which is understandable, since he has virtually no training at all on top of being kept in cell or lab most of his life.

[B]1) Does Nate Telekinesis really rival the Phoenix.
Answer: According to Moira calculations it does.

We can dance around, and try to swing each others explanations to see which one will either finally give in or give up. To me a topic that has bin ironed out for the last 4 pages, no longer seems worth the effort.

You want to believe extrapolate is being referred to his power eventually building up to the Phoenix level, by my guest. Personally I cant agree, for the simple fact that extrapolation is being used with hard evidence. The hard evidence is Nate and Phoenix clocked readings. The hard evidence, is being referenced for the extrapolation, other wise known as the prediction of his body no longer being able to cope with his power.

Nate’s does seem to have an incredible amount of power, Andy. Tragically, it’s too much for one person to contain, which is what Moria Mactaggert discovered in the past issue. [/B]

You've missed the point.

Nate wasn't always at critical mass, that was a state he had to reach. It was a growth.

Nates feats got more impressive as time went on, his power output grew during the series. That is a growth.

Moira stated point blank she cant be certain. Therefore the point that her findings were not concrete fact is not debatable by any comic book reader.

The exercise of extrapolation is not an exercise in certainty. That is concrete fact. The only facts within that exercise are the initial variables that you know for a fact and its from these that you project future values.

That is not debatable.

Your scan of the letters page does not help you in the slightest. It said her findings indicates Nates TK was on par with DP's. Her findings were a holo-graph of her extrapolation which she herself said wasnt certain.

That is all.

The extrapolation occurred.
The extrapolation was visualised. The results were compared and they matched up with DPs readings.

The extrapolation was the art of predicting future values based on current levels.

What matched Phoenix was the extrapolation.

You are conclusively wrong as i have shown.

Moira said she wasn't certain, therefore you cannot come on here and tell us that Moiras readings were 100% correct.

Moiras findings, (her extrapolation and its visualization) matched Nate to Phoenix.

Therefore the letter spage was right to say from Moiras findings he matched up to Phoenix.

Unfortunately for your case, Moiras findings were not direct readings from Nate which equalled Phoenix, they were readings which were then extrapolated and the results of that matched Phoenix.

This is over 😬

I don't see the difficulty here. not being a big X-Men fan, I guess I'm just looking at the logic underpinning the scene referenced.

it looks rather simple to me, Moira's projecting Nate's growth into the future, based upon his then present rate of growth.

so obviously the projection carries with it the possibility of being in-error, of Nate not sustaining the rate of growth or of him hitting some 'ceiling' which she could not have factored for when doing her projections.

Nate's growth rate seemed to place him on a slope that would eventually lead to DP levels (if the hypothesis that his rate of growth would be sustained were to hold true). that is definitely not the same thing as saying that she said he was as powerful as DP nor that he will be as powerful as DP (since this latter statement takes away the fundamental, implicit, guesswork involved and substitutes a faux 'fact' in its place).

anyway, extrapolation is by definition moving beyond the facts. thus it cannot then be referenced as a measure of extant powers, but as a quantification of potential.

Originally posted by janus77
I don't see the difficulty here. not being a big X-Men fan, I guess I'm just looking at the logic underpinning the scene referenced.

it looks rather simple to me, Moira's projecting Nate's growth into the future, based upon his then present rate of growth.

so obviously the projection carries with it the possibility of being in-error, of Nate not sustaining the rate of growth or of him hitting some 'ceiling' which she could not have factored for when doing her projections.

Nate's growth rate seemed to place him on a slope that would eventually lead to DP levels (if the hypothesis that his rate of growth would be sustained were to hold true). that is definitely not the same thing as saying that she said he was as powerful as DP nor that he will be as powerful as DP (since this latter statement takes away the fundamental, implicit, guesswork involved and substitutes a faux 'fact' in its place).

anyway, extrapolation is by definition moving beyond the facts. thus it cannot then be referenced as a measure of extant powers, but as a quantification of potential.

That was beautiful droolio

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You've missed the point.

Nate wasn't always at critical mass, that was a state he had to reach. It was a growth.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Nates feats got more impressive as time went on, his power output grew during the series. That is a growth.

I disagree self awareness through trail and error is the key reason why he developed. Power output was not an issue until her merged with alternate Nate Grey.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Moira stated point blank she cant be certain. Therefore the point that her findings were not concrete fact is not debatable by any comic book reader.

What is the key differences between the two sentences. One is dictating data (matches), the other is predicating (could). What is the purpose of extrapolating? To use known date, in order to predict.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

The exercise of extrapolation is not an exercise in certainty. That is concrete fact. The only facts within that exercise are the initial variables that you know for a fact and its from these that you project future values.

We’re not going to kill you before 21. Your own body will. - Moira (Excalibur #95).

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

That is not debatable.

What is silly is you are, debating growth of power in extrapolation that bares not mention of energy expansion at all.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Your scan of the letters page does not help you in the slightest. It said her findings indicates Nates TK was on par with DP's. Her findings were a holo-graph of her extrapolation which she herself said wasnt certain.

That is all.

A fan asks a vary blunt and direct question. The same question that is being debated here and
now. It doesn’t ask about growth, or if extrapolation was regarded to its growth. And the author aswnsers, yes according to Moiras calculation it is on par with the Dark Phoenix.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Her findings were a holo-graph of her extrapolation which she herself said wasnt certain.

That is all.

What her prediction (extrapolation) is to use this data to determine when the boys body will reach critical mass.

A power if corrupted….that could consume him utterly..as well as all around him. - Moira.

Did you catch that, could as in predicating. Foreshadowing an event that could come.

----------------------------------------------------------

We cannae be certain of this; but if’n we extrapolate from what we know of the boys power -- using this holo-graph to illustrate-- Moira.

States she can not be certain, but will make a prediction (extrapolation) using what they know of the boys powers with holographs as visual aid.

You have 3 images. One is the Phoenix data, the other is Nate Data, lastly its holographic image of both data over leaping each other.

-----------------------------------------------------

-- It equals the most uncontainable psionic energy we have on record -- the phoenix. -- Moira

Notice no prediction, just a data comparison with to holographic images used as cross-referenced. Nothing in Moira sentence now indicates any growth, or future grow. Just two sets of data clocked at a single interval, and they happen to match. Hence the reason why the Holograph is provided and overlapped with one another.

-------------------------------------

Whereas the phoenix was twisted by sensation, of human wielding God-Like power-- Nate Grey is an adolescent who is unprepared-- Physically, mentally, emotionally--to contain such devastating powers. - Moira

Still no indication of growth, or prediction of energy expansion that could lead Nates power to rival the Phoenix as you claim. What we get, is a concern of his inability to contain his power, over several factors. Gees I wonder where this is leading to?

---------------------------

A power if corrupted…..that could consume him utterly…as well as all around him. - Moira

Bingo, this is the prediction. Undeniably what extrapolated comment was focused on. NO concreted evidence of when, he will go into critical mass, no concreted evidence of how much damage it would cause. But apparently some time in the near future (before age 21), with a vary devastating consequence (as in global threat).

All Galactic Storm did was ***** about Dark Phoenix, without even addressing Sufer vs Nate. How uncharacteristic of him to only focus on Phoenix in a thread she's barely involved in.

Originally posted by llagrok
All Galactic Storm did was ***** about Dark Phoenix, without even addressing Sufer vs Nate. How uncharacteristic of him to only focus on Phoenix in a thread she's barely involved in.

Its not even a debate of who would win, I don’t think anyone is giving Nate the majority including myself. It went from how easy Surfer would take this match, to who is harnessing more energy, and now weather Nate potential is within a cosmic level or not.

Originally posted by id369

I was told [B]at some point every cell in my body would dissolve into a critical mass of unbridled energy. If I imploded, I’d burn out existence. If I imploded I’d take a large piece of existence with me. - Nate (X-Man #75). [/B]

Its puzzling why you thought that scan would help your case because it doesn't.

You've even been kind enough to highlight the part of the statement that supports my argument.

As i said previously, Nate isnt constantly at critical mass. It is a point his power levels would expand to "at some point"

So regardless of whether you want to argue with me that Nates power was growing because he was getting older and more experienced or just because he risked going into critical mass BOTH scenarios are an example of growth from one power level to another.

So that completely discredits your unjustified notion that Nate always had the same power level. Sorry mate.

Originally posted by id369
I disagree self awareness through trail and error is the key reason why he developed. Power output was not an issue until her merged with alternate Nate Grey.

I've shown you scans of it being stated that Nates psi power had great potential. To have potential there must be room for growth.

That point in Cable #29 discredited your opinion.

I showed you a scan from Cable #30 of it being stated that Nates power was growing. That point discredited your opinion.

Originally posted by id369
Moira stated, lets extrapolate from what we know. What do they know? The boys powers [B]matches that of another powerful psi on record. What is her prediction? His body could consume itself, because it cant contain those powers.

What is the key differences between the two sentences. One is dictating data (matches), the other is predicating (could). What is the purpose of extrapolating? To use known date, in order to predict.

Those initial variables are stated vary clearly, his power matches Dark Phoenix. The only uncertainty was, when his body will consume itself, and how much damage would be sustained within the vicinity. That is the reason why she thinks, he wont live past 21 along with her concern over the entire Earth.[/B]

You know what extrapolation is after i and others have explained your previous misinterpretation of the term.

It is using fact, that which you can perceive and observe in the current, to predict future values. It is therefore conclusively NOT an exercise of fact.

Hence Moira stating she cant be certain of her results.

Moira stated quite clearly, with no room for interpretation, that she was extrapolating from the boys power.

That means she looked at Nates power activity and she predicted its growth. She forecasted its future level.

She then said using the holograph to illustrate this extrapolation, it equalled the records for Phoenix.

That means, Nates predicted power level would equal Dark Phoenixes actual power levels, if his power continued to behave and grow at the same rate Moira had observed it do in her records.

That is not the same as saying Nates power equals Dark Phoenix.

There is no ambiguity in that sentence. You have no justification to debate such a clear statement.

Originally posted by id369
We’re not going to kill you before 21. Your own body will. - Moira (Excalibur #95).

Originally posted by id369
What is silly is you are, debating growth of power in extrapolation that bares not mention of energy expansion at all.

Moira said she was extrapolating from the boys power. If as per your personal opinion, Nates power was in a static state and did not grow at all she would have known that and wouldnt have bothered with the exercise at all.

If Nate had already(at the point of Cable #29) reached his maximum power level possible then he wouldnt be risking going to critical mass.

If he had already reached his apex there would be no point in extrapolating from the boys power as she clearly stated she was doing.

You are conclusively wrong.

Originally posted by id369
A fan asks a vary blunt and direct question. The same question that is being debated here and
now. It doesn’t ask about growth, or if extrapolation was regarded to its growth. And the author aswnsers, yes according to Moiras calculation it is on par with the Dark Phoenix.

The author said that according to Moiras findings Nates TK power equalled Dark Phoenixes.

What were Moiras findings? She extrapolated from Nates power and from this found that the readings equalled Dark Phoenix.

Unfortunately for your argument, extrapolation is a prediction on future growth. It is not fact, no prediction is, there are many variables which could come into play to alter the level of growth Moira has predicted.

Hence her saying at the begiining the results are not certain.

If she says that, you are in no position to say otherwise.

Originally posted by id369
Her finding where holographic energy readings, from what they can be certain of as she states. It is used for no more then data comparison.

What her prediction (extrapolation) is to use this data to determine when the boys body will reach critical mass.

A power if corrupted….that could consume him utterly..as well as all around him. - Moira.

Did you catch that, could as in predicating. Foreshadowing an event that [B]could come. [/B]

As stated clear as day, she extrapolated from the boys power and then used the holograph to illustrate the results. Her predictions equalled the actual power readings on record for DP.

Given that Nates readings were extrapolation and not actual power readings, this doesnt help your case in the slightest. Apologies. 😬

Originally posted by id369

----------------------------------------------------------

[B]We cannae be certain of this; but if’n we extrapolate from what we know of the boys power -- using this holo-graph to illustrate-- Moira.

States she can not be certain, but will make a prediction (extrapolation) using what they know of the boys powers with holographs as visual aid.

You have 3 images. One is the Phoenix data, the other is Nate Data, lastly its holographic image of both data over leaping each other.

-----------------------------------------------------

-- It equals the most uncontainable psionic energy we have on record -- the phoenix. -- Moira

Notice no prediction, just a data comparison with to holographic images used as cross-referenced. Nothing in Moira sentence now indicates any growth, or future grow. Just two sets of data clocked at a single interval, and they happen to match. Hence the reason why the Holograph is provided and overlapped with one another.

-------------------------------------

Whereas the phoenix was twisted by sensation, of human wielding God-Like power-- Nate Grey is an adolescent who is unprepared-- Physically, mentally, emotionally--to contain such devastating powers. - Moira

Still no indication of growth, or prediction of energy expansion that could lead Nates power to rival the Phoenix as you claim. What we get, is a concern of his inability to contain his power, over several factors. Gees I wonder where this is leading to?

---------------------------

A power if corrupted…..that could consume him utterly…as well as all around him. - Moira

Bingo, this is the prediction. Undeniably what extrapolated comment was focused on. NO concreted evidence of when, he will go into critical mass, no concreted evidence of how much damage it would cause. But apparently some time in the near future (before age 21), with a vary devastating consequence (as in global threat). [/B]

Oh dear.

Please understand that for her to be extrapolating(predicting future levels based on current levels) from Nates power as she clearly says she is doing, she must know that Nates power is growing otherwise this is a pointless exercise.

Whether its growing as a result of him going to critical mass or just as a result of him getting older is irrelevant. Both are levels of growth.

Therefore your point that its not stated literally on that page that Nates power is growing is a moot point. If his power was in a static state Moira wouldnt be extrapolating from his power.

As ive already shown in this thread, its stated pages before this scene that his power has great potential meaning there is room for growth. In the next issue its stated his power is growing. Those coupled with the fact that she is extrapolating from his power in the first place means you are conclusively incorrect. You have either misinterpreted or you would prefer to believe otherwise because it favours your preferred character.

Moira says she cant be certain, but extrapolating from the boys power( predicting its future growth from current readings) and using a holograph to display this, it equals Phoenix. There is no other way to read this. Nates predicted future levels equal Phoenixes readings.

Unfortunately for you, prediction does not equate to fact and Nate has never on panel done anything on par with Phoenix.

This really should be over 😬

Originally posted by llagrok
All Galactic Storm did was ***** about Dark Phoenix, without even addressing Sufer vs Nate. How uncharacteristic of him to only focus on Phoenix in a thread she's barely involved in.

Bullsh*t. 😬

I addressed the subject of the debate within the first two pages.

ID then tried to win the debate by saying that it was stated that Nates power equals Dark Phoenixes. If he won that line of argument, he would win the debate. Me arguing that Nates power does not equal DPs is me participating in the debate.

You're not stupid. Read before you start blabbing 👇

Originally posted by llagrok
All Galactic Storm did was ***** about Dark Phoenix