Captain America vs Batman(no shield-no gadgets)

Started by SamZED220 pages

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
The obvious difference would be that Cap has dozens and dozens of feats to suggest that he would roll Batman up like a paper ball, and not just one isolated feat like the examples you cited of Hawkeye lifting a car. A good chunk of this thread is actually direct feat comparisons... and Batman just doesn't measure up. 160 pages is a lot, but you should go through and read it if you have time.

This isn't a hard fought fight for Cap. We've seen what Deathstroke does to Batman, and that is what Cap will do... only worse, because he actually has a sizable amount of combat skill to go with his attributes.

Got no problem if you think its onesided. I disagree but got no problem with it. At the same time saying that Cap is on a whole different level physically is nothing but wishful thinking no matter how you look at it. They're still in the same league. Same goes for DD, BP etc etc it was always that way and just because some of his feats are a bit more impressive doesnt change that. Just like Batgirl's dodging feats do not put her on a whole different level compared to other peak humans.

If me and Srank agree... then it must be true as that almost never happens... AGAIN... this isn't CLOSE enough to warrant it going on this long, and really, it ever been thought of as a good competitive fight...

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
If me and Srank agree... then it must be true as that almost never happens... AGAIN... this isn't CLOSE enough to warrant it going on this long, and really, it ever been thought of as a good competitive fight...
Not sure if this is aimed at me but I dont get what's wrong with it going for so long. Both characters are street levelers, both are great MAs and both are roughly on the same level (yes roughly they ARE so stop kidding yourselvs). On top of everything else this is a h2h fight which always makes for an interesting debate. So why shouldn't people debate? Even if the winner is clear to you (because at the end of the day Cap's feats are overall better) it's still perfectly understandble that fans would want to bring arguments in Batman's defence. What's wrong with that exactly? We've got lots of ridiculous threads with one character outclassing another on every level, being SEVERAL times stronger/faster etc and these threads still last longer than 160 pages.

I have no issue with this lasting MAYBE MAYBE 20 pages at most... anything after that is far too much. Think about it, it's not even competitive or close. If Silva beats Sonnen 8 more times... some by KO some by submission.. and during the fights Sonnen has good competitive moments.. Is the OVERALL PICTURE when looking at it a TRULY competitive fight? The answer is clearly NO.. He lost 10/10, and when doing so, that can't and should've even be labeled competitive. I don't care if Sonnen won every round until he was KO'd or Submitted... it STILL wouldn't be competitive but the results are competitive or ever in doubt. That is what we have here and why it should never have gone on this long.. Agree?

Cap isn't beating batman 10/10. That's ridiculous.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I have no issue with this lasting MAYBE MAYBE 20 pages at most... anything after that is far too much. Think about it, it's not even competitive or close. If Silva beats Sonnen 8 more times... some by KO some by submission.. and during the fights Sonnen has good competitive moments.. Is the OVERALL PICTURE when looking at it a TRULY competitive fight? The answer is clearly NO.. He lost 10/10, and when doing so, that can't and should've even be labeled competitive. I don't care if Sonnen won every round until he was KO'd or Submitted... it STILL wouldn't be competitive but the results are competitive or ever in doubt. That is what we have here and why it should never have gone on this long.. Agree?

Again, it doesn't have to be competative. (btw I disagree with 10/10 but that's beside the point) Even if the winner is clear it's still perfectly understandble that fans would want to bring arguments into underdog's defence. EVEN if they agree that he loses. And THAT's why threads like that last long. And frankly, disregarding all their feats and victories... this is Batman and Captain America we're talking about. Their popularity alone guarantees the thread will be long. Is that really surprising?

Then there are posts like "Cap stomps without breaking a sweat". That is another reason people would want to engage in a long heated debate EVEN if they think that Cap wins. (+ 80 pages easy).

Originally posted by abhilegend
Cap isn't beating batman 10/10. That's ridiculous.

Seeing as Cap has comparable skill and better stats.

Assuming both are having good days, how exactly would Batman win?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Cap isn't beating batman 10/10. That's ridiculous.

Agreed.

Originally posted by Nietzschean
Captain America is far more skilled than Slade. 😬

3boot Val is more skilled than Slade and Bruce stalemated him for a bit. Even getting recognition from Val himself.

Originally posted by SamZED
Got no problem if you think its onesided. I disagree but got no problem with it. At the same time saying that Cap is on a whole different level physically is nothing but wishful thinking no matter how you look at it. They're still in the same league. Same goes for DD, BP etc etc it was always that way and just because some of his feats are a bit more impressive doesnt change that. Just like Batgirl's dodging feats do not put her on a whole different level compared to other peak humans.

Captain America and Black Panther are the same league, they are both blatantly superhuman (Black Panther is directly stated to be Peak Human sans the HSH). Daredevil has super powers that go along way to balancing the scales when he is outclassed physically, mainly a radar sense that affords him the ability to read and predict his opponents movements on a level that trumps even legit precognition. Batman is just peak human.

Batgirl's two dodging feats don't put her on another level because frankly they aren't more impressive than what every other street level hero does on a routine basis. At most Batgirl's feats are flashier and presented more clearly... but that doesn't make them better. Every single street level character has an example (usually several) of them running directly into a spread of machine gun fire, with bullets passing by their arm pits, the side of their head, in between their legs, ect ect ect. You can't aim dodge burst fire from an automatic weapon, the recoil would make predicting the path of the second bullet impossible... and street levels routinely run directly machine 30 rounds per second + automatic gun fire and avoid all of the projectiles. That is a much more impressive example of speed, timing and coordination than those two Batgirl feats. Hands down. No ifs ands or buts, and every street level has done it (including Batgirl). The artist rarely gives us a frame by frame break down of those types of feats, holding the readers hand and showing them how these characters are doing this, like in the Batgirl example, because it's absurd and would completely destroy suspension of disbelief... but every street level does it, logically there is no way around it. You know that feat where Batgirl is standing still and moving her head two inches to the left, then two inches to the right, and avoiding hand gun fire? Now imagine if that was machine gun fire and she was running directly into it... because that's what all street levels do routinely (again, Batgirl included). It always makes me laugh when people try to pretend those are better than what ever other street does, like children easily distracted by bright colours or something.

Cassandra Cain has a lot more than two dodging feats, by her solo series alone. 🙁

They range between taking out large squads of government professionals while they stand like statues wearing the same expression on their faces as the guy next to them falls, to one feat that's borderline outsprinting a bullet (What happens, is she throws a battarang to disable a gunman, realizes it won't hit the gun before he pulls the trigger, so she breaks into a sprint just as the gun is sparking. Races PAST THE BATTARANG, and puts her body between the victim and gun just as it's discharging.

There's no way to look at that feat and not call it super human.

Originally posted by SamZED
Not sure if this is aimed at me but I dont get what's wrong with it going for so long. Both characters are street levelers, both are great MAs and both are roughly on the same level (yes roughly they ARE so stop kidding yourselvs). On top of everything else this is a h2h fight which always makes for an interesting debate. So why shouldn't people debate? Even if the winner is clear to you (because at the end of the day Cap's feats are overall better) it's still perfectly understandble that fans would want to bring arguments in Batman's defence. What's wrong with that exactly? We've got lots of ridiculous threads with one character outclassing another on every level, being SEVERAL times stronger/faster etc and these threads still last longer than 160 pages.

To be fair, Cap does have the more impressive strength feats.

But when it comes to striking and combat, that's another story. Top streets have feats right up there with his best, imo (Like Cassandra Cain kicking a giant hole in the side of a prison wall, big enough for her and a man she's carrying.)

Just a note, Hawkeye did not lift that damn Car.

He just lifted one SIDE of it while crouching underneath it.

Not even close to a multi-ton feat, even if the car itself MIGHT be 2 tons--or more likely 1.5 tons.

Lifting up something from one side takes much less effort. And cuts the impressiveness of the feat down to at least less than half. If he actually powercleaned the entire weight over his head, it would have been multiple times greater impressive strength wise.

Clint's feat was not impressive by peak human standards. It was expected.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Captain America and Black Panther are the same league, they are both blatantly superhuman (Black Panther is directly stated to be Peak Human sans the HSH). Daredevil has super powers that go along way to balancing the scales when he is outclassed physically, mainly a radar sense that affords him the ability to read and predict his opponents movements on a level that trumps even legit precognition. Batman is just peak human.

Batgirl's two dodging feats don't put her on another level because frankly they aren't more impressive than what every other street level hero does on a routine basis. At most Batgirl's feats are flashier and presented more clearly... but that doesn't make them better. Every single street level character has an example (usually several) of them running directly into a spread of machine gun fire, with bullets passing by their arm pits, the side of their head, in between their legs, ect ect ect. You can't aim dodge burst fire from an automatic weapon, the recoil would make predicting the path of the second bullet impossible... and street levels routinely run directly machine 30 rounds per second + automatic gun fire and avoid all of the projectiles. That is a much more impressive example of speed, timing and coordination than those two Batgirl feats. Hands down. No ifs ands or buts, and every street level has done it (including Batgirl). The artist rarely gives us a frame by frame break down of those types of feats, holding the readers hand and showing them how these characters are doing this, like in the Batgirl example, because it's absurd and would completely destroy suspension of disbelief... but every street level does it, logically there is no way around it. You know that feat where Batgirl is standing still and moving her head two inches to the left, then two inches to the right, and avoiding hand gun fire? Now imagine if that was machine gun fire and she was running directly into it... because that's what all street levels do routinely (again, Batgirl included). It always makes me laugh when people try to pretend those are better than what ever other street does, like children easily distracted by bright colours or something.

This an example of Marvel bias I was talking about. Love the double standarts. So basically if Captain America performs a strength feat that is SLIGHTLY (if at all) above peak human level he's superhuman. But if Batgirl performs a clear superhuman feat on KMC we go "Meh it's not that impressive" or "Bah it should happen more often otherwise it doesn't count!". I'm sorry, Srank but that is exactly what's happening here. In you first passage you subjectively label characters with titles like "peak" or "super" regardles of what they've actually done in comics. We have an example of Batgirl (with her back turned) DODGE a sniper bullet after it was fired and that was INCHES away from her body. She physically overpowered Slade in one of their encounter, and yeah I know Slade is not as skilled as Cap, doesn't change the fact that he's an enhanced human and she physically pinned him down. You can't just highlight feats you like for one character and dismiss feats of another just so he or she would fall under the peak human category you labeled her with. It's a one way road. You either accept that Cap's feats do not put him on a completely different level compared to someone like Batman or you accept that anyone who does something remotely more impressive than other peak humans automatically moves to the "above peak human" category.

Originally posted by cdtm
There's no way to look at that feat and not call it super human.
Exactly. And it's true for lots of (supposedly) peak human characters.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Just a note, Hawkeye did not lift that damn Car.

He just lifted one SIDE of it while crouching underneath it.

Not even close to a multi-ton feat, even if the car itself MIGHT be 2 tons--or more likely 1.5 tons.

Lifting up something from one side takes much less effort. And cuts the impressiveness of the feat down to at least less than half. If he actually powercleaned the entire weight over his head, it would have been multiple times greater impressive strength wise.

Clint's feat was not impressive by peak human standards. It was expected.

He was trapped under the car, had no leverage, couldn't even sit. Yet casually lifted it off himself using just one arm. Some cars weight 3-4 tons but even if this one didn't, its still not something all peak humans can do. I can tell you one thing, it definitely wasn't expected. I remember fans reaction all over the internet. Most of them were asking - "when exactly did Clint become a superhuman?"

Hawk isn't even peak human in strength, he's "athlete" level. Silly Bendispower.

Originally posted by SamZED
This an example of Marvel bias I was talking about. Love the double standarts. So basically if Captain America performs a strength feat that is SLIGHTLY (if at all) above peak human level he's superhuman. But if Batgirl performs a clear superhuman feat on KMC we go "Meh it's not that impressive" or "Bah it should happen more often otherwise it doesn't count!". I'm sorry, Srank but that is exactly what's happening here. In you first passage you subjectively label characters with titles like "peak" or "super" regardles of what they've actually done in comics. We have an example of Batgirl (with her back turned) DODGE a sniper bullet after it was fired and that was INCHES away from her body. She physically overpowered Slade in one of their encounter, and yeah I know Slade is not as skilled as Cap, doesn't change the fact that he's an enhanced human and she physically pinned him down. You can't just highlight feats you like for one character and dismiss feats of another just so he or she would fall under the peak human category you labeled her with. It's a one way road. You either accept that Cap's feats do not put him on a completely different level compared to someone like Batman or you accept that anyone who does something remotely more impressive than other peak humans automatically moves to the "above peak human" category.

I'm not sure if you should use srank as an example for the whole of KMC but in regards to Batgirl hes right. I think Batgirl is faster than the Punisher but I was able to prove using feats shes not that much better. Daredevil has better dodging feats than Batgirl, and thats exactly what I'm talking about when people mention Batgirl people lose their shit.

Also I think when srank talks about peak human hes simply saying that Cap is above Batman and he is. There is street level reflexes and then you got people like Cap.

I can I see some evidence then on why Cap doesn't win 10/10?

By feats Superman is stronger than everybody else. Go figures.

Originally posted by abhilegend
By feats Superman is stronger than everybody else. Go figures.

This is a Cap vs Batman thread.