Originally posted by SamZED
KMC is so Marvel-centered its sad. Non-fight? Cap stomps? You gotta be kidding me... I'm not a Batman fanboy (not even a fan) but even I see it's going to be one hell of a fight with Cap eventually winning. Steve is a little above peak humans like DD, Batman is a peak human. Both are ones of the best MAs in their universes. This in not going to be a stomp in anyone's favor. I barely read DC comics these days, only Marvel.. and even I have to admit that Marvel wanking is strong with KMC. Every time two comparable characters from the two universe face one another on KMC somehow it's always a stomp in marvel's favor...
Oh please.
Originally posted by SamZED
KMC is so Marvel-centered its sad. Non-fight? Cap stomps? You gotta be kidding me... I'm not a Batman fanboy (not even a fan) but even I see it's going to be one hell of a fight with Cap eventually winning. Steve is a little above peak humans like DD, Batman is a peak human. Both are ones of the best MAs in their universes. This in not going to be a stomp in anyone's favor. I barely read DC comics these days, only Marvel.. and even I have to admit that Marvel wanking is strong with KMC. Every time two comparable characters from the two universe face one another on KMC somehow it's always a stomp in marvel's favor...
Originally posted by SamZED
Used to be. Not any more. KMC is marvel biased through and through. There are like 3 or 4 guys who try to defend DC but when theyre not around the default rule here - "marvel wins".
You say 'slightly above' a peak human.
Quantify that for me.
By how much? 10%? 25%? Where does peak human end, and where does meta begin?
I'm looking at Cap doing things like tearing off robot limbs, opening and shutting nuclear silo doors, ripping up multi-ton statues out of the ground, dragging around trucks through deserts and stuff and I see a much greater difference than whatever slightly implies in my head.
Besides that, even if the strength difference was say, only 25% or so, that is still a monsterous difference. Afterall, you might be able to bench 250 lbs like 10 times no problem, but probably won't even get close to benching 300 lbs once. And that's just a 20% increase. Strength differences will feel vast, even while numerically they won't sound like much.
And this angle of physicality matters a hell of a lot.
Just look at MMA, where Lesnar was able to beat a good handful people with whom he had a far greater skill deficit with than what Cap MIGHT (note, I don't buy this shit at all) have with Batman, and yet, Lesnar's strength advantage over the likes of Heath Herring, Randy Couture or Frank Mir are FAR smaller than Cap's strength advantage over Batman.
You have to think of this realistically. And realistically, strength gives so much in a fight, especially when the technique differential isn't very big. And in this case, its arguably nil in the first place.
Cap stomps. Strength matters that much here.
Originally posted by CosmicCometCant put a number on it. That's the problem with this "Cap is on a whole different level" thing. The line between peak human and slightly above peak human (Cap) is so sketchy its pretty much not worth mentioning. What does that mean exactly in your opinion? That he is capable of performing feats no peak human can? Lets take speed for example. Cap is supposed to have above peak human speed right? We've seen him bullet time. Well great for him. Cassandra Cain has dodged a sniper bullet that was few inches away from her body. With her back turned. Normally peak humans dont do that. Does that mean she's above peak humans too? Or that she can speedblitz any peak human MA (even top ones) just because they dont have a simillar feat? Hell no it doesnt. Just like it doesnt mean Cap will physically overpower any peak human. So we dont do it for Cass, why should we apply this logic to Cap? Heck Clint fraking Barton lifted a car off himself using ONE hand. Its a multiton feat. I guess hes also out of Bruce's league now? Applying simillar logic and using top feats i can easilly prove that Elektra, Cass etc are also above peak humans. The truth is Cap was never shown to be say out of DD's league physically. Or Kingpin's league. Feats happen. Some Chars have slightly better strength feats. Other speed. Bruce and Cap are still in the same league. And Cap is sure as heck NOT stomping someone who is his equel skillwise but (slightly) inferior physically. Maybe in real life. In comics it just means Cap has a little advantage.
You say 'slightly above' a peak human.Quantify that for me.
By how much? 10%? 25%? Where does peak human end, and where does meta begin?
I'm looking at Cap doing things like tearing off robot limbs, opening and shutting nuclear silo doors, ripping up multi-ton statues out of the ground, dragging around trucks through deserts and stuff and I see a much greater difference than whatever slightly implies in my head.
Besides that, even if the strength difference was say, only 25% or so, that is still a monsterous difference. Afterall, you might be able to bench 250 lbs like 10 times no problem, but probably won't even get close to benching 300 lbs once. And that's just a 20% increase. Strength differences will feel vast, even while numerically they won't sound like much.
And this angle of physicality matters a hell of a lot.
Just look at MMA, where Lesnar was able to beat a good handful people with whom he had a far greater skill deficit with than what Cap MIGHT (note, I don't buy this shit at all) have with Batman, and yet, Lesnar's strength advantage over the likes of Heath Herring, Randy Couture or Frank Mir are FAR smaller than Cap's strength advantage over Batman.
You have to think of this realistically. And realistically, strength gives so much in a fight, especially when the technique differential isn't very big. And in this case, its arguably nil in the first place.
Cap stomps. Strength matters that much here.
Originally posted by Silent MasterIf you look through some of the pages you'll notice most of the people supporting Batman say things like "BatGod wins" or "batkick FTW".
A couple people thinking Cap wins easier than he would is a lot less biased that the last 160 odd pages of people saying Batman wins.
But if seriously.. I dont see a problem with people arguing over it. It IS a close and interesting match after all. H2H means people get to compare skill feats, post scans etc and it always lasts. TBH 160 pages of this makes a lot more sense than say 10 pages of people arguing that Cap beats Wolverine.
This matchup isn't REALLY close... If somebody wins 10/10.. I mean really... HOW close was it? Just because somebody in competitive in losing 10 out of 10 deosn't REALLY make it close.. just competitive. Those two things are really, in the overall scheme of this forum, not really close to the same thing.
Originally posted by SamZED
Cant put a number on it. That's the problem with this "Cap is on a whole different level" thing. The line between peak human and slightly above peak human (Cap) is so sketchy its pretty much not worth mentioning. What does that mean exactly in your opinion? That he is capable of performing feats no peak human can? Lets take speed for example. Cap is supposed to have above peak human speed right? We've seen him bullet time. Well great for him. Cassandra Cain has dodged a sniper bullet that was few inches away from her body. With her back turned. Normally peak humans dont do that. Does that mean she's above peak humans too? Or that she can speedblitz any peak human MA (even top ones) just because they dont have a simillar feat? Hell no it doesnt. Just like it doesnt mean Cap will physically overpower any peak human. So we dont do it for Cass, why should we apply this logic to Cap? Heck Clint fraking Barton lifted a car off himself using ONE hand. Its a multiton feat. I guess hes also out of Bruce's league now? Applying simillar logic and using top feats i can easilly prove that Elektra, Cass etc are also above peak humans. The truth is Cap was never shown to be say out of DD's league physically. Or Kingpin's league. Feats happen. Some Chars have slightly better strength feats. Other speed. Bruce and Cap are still in the same league. And Cap is sure as heck NOT stomping someone who is his equel skillwise but (slightly) inferior physically. Maybe in real life. In comics it just means Cap has a little advantage.
The obvious difference would be that Cap has dozens and dozens of feats to suggest that he would roll Batman up like a paper ball, and not just one isolated feat like the examples you cited of Hawkeye lifting a car. A good chunk of this thread is actually direct feat comparisons... and Batman just doesn't measure up. 160 pages is a lot, but you should go through and read it if you have time.
This isn't a hard fought fight for Cap. We've seen what Deathstroke does to Batman, and that is what Cap will do... only worse, because he actually has a sizable amount of combat skill to go with his attributes.