Captain America vs Batman(no shield-no gadgets)

Originally posted by Deadline
Why are you comparing Winter Soldier to Bruce.

Actually I'm not sure about that.

Yes Bruce knows more science than Cap, period. Cap has studied Military tactics. Bruce doesn't know more about this than Cap does. Also espionage isn't just about spying and going undercover, Cap has more experience doing that and has always close links with people like Nick Fury. No way overall does Batman know more about espionage than Cap does.

Because Cap's strong point isn't espionage/stealth based. Bucky is closer to Bruce in that sense.

I'm pretty sure. Cap's entire persona is about being a larger than life symbol that's meant to be seen on the battlefield or in the middle of the crisis. Batman is not. To that end, Batman has done way more stealth based missions and parameters than Cap has. Stealth is one of Batman's strong points and an area that Cap doesn't match up well with him.

That "science" applies to a vast field of differing subjects: engineering, physics, chemicals, computer, social, criminology. And that's without factoring in his other notable academics and skills. Yes, Cap has an edge when it comes to military tactics, but it's almost a hard a sell arguing Cap is as smart or smarter than Batman on a whole as it is arguing Batman could beat Captain America in a purely physical confrontation.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
What, then, is spying about?

Bats is all about stealth.

He goes undercover gathering Intel from his enemies

He's not above hacking into Lexcorp, for.example, to get Intel.

Im not giving Bats a win in Hth because of this, in fact I've already said Cap wins, im just interested to know what you think espionage is.all about.

I think I said espionage not spying. Sometimes that doesn't involve spying at all but out thinking you're opponent and predicting what their next move will be.

You're exaggerating. He doesn't spy every single issue sometimes all he does is run up on people and beat the shit out of them.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Btw, I wasn't just talking about a double life (though You can't possibly argue that Steve has a double life on the scale of Bruce Wayne..). It was more to do with triple or quadruple lives, like his Matches persona.

I don't see why not just seems like you're giving Batman the benefit of the doubt.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Because Cap's strong point isn't espionage/stealth based. Bucky is closer to Bruce in that sense.

Actually it is, it's just that Bucky is better that doesn't make Bruce better at him at stealth and espionage. It's like trying to argue that Mentallo is a better telepath than Emma Frost because Professor X is.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I'm pretty sure. Cap's entire persona is about being a larger than life symbol that's meant to be seen on the battlefield or in the middle of the crisis. Batman is not. To that end, Batman has done way more stealth based missions and parameters than Cap has. Stealth is one of Batman's strong points and an area that Cap doesn't match up well with him.

Thats just part of his persona. Captain America is essentially a soldier and being a soldier doesn't just involve battlefield fighting. During WW2 he did alot of missions that involved infiltrating enemy bases. Then in the modern age there are lots of examples of him doing the same and sometimes going undercover. Why on earth do you think Cap was the leader of the Secret Avengers? That was essentially a black ops group.

So basically you're arguing that Batman knows more about espionage despite the fact that Cap had already had extensive experience in this area before Batman had even started his career. Lets not forget work involved in espionage continued into the modern age. Lets not forget that one of Caps main allies is Nick Fury the master of espionage and Cap has worked with him a million times. Batman doesn't have a relationship like Cap does with anybody in espionage.

No he doesn't know more about espionage.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
That "science" applies to a vast field of differing subjects: engineering, physics, chemicals, computer, social, criminology. And that's without factoring in his other notable academics and skills. Yes, Cap has an edge when it comes to military tactics, but it's almost a hard a sell arguing Cap is as smart or smarter than Batman on a whole as it is arguing Batman could beat Captain America in a purely physical confrontation.

No it's not a hard sell with all due respect you don't know enough about the character. It's a forgivable error to make though. The problem is Cap already has enhanced intelligence and military tactics and espionage also involve differing subjects.

Batman has studied more areas of knowledge but he's not smarter than Cap.

Originally posted by Deadline
I think I said espionage not spying. Sometimes that doesn't involve spying at all but out thinking you're opponent and predicting what their next move will be.

Espionage = spying. You're thinking of something else. And again, Batman takes this - the predicting your opponent's next moves bit. This is the guy who has prep plans for major players in the DCU.

You're exaggerating. He doesn't spy every single issue sometimes all he does is run up on people and beat the shit out of them.

Never said he spied every single issue. But he does it a hell of a lot more than Cap.

I don't see why not just seems like you're giving Batman the benefit of the doubt.

Thats just part of his persona. Captain America is essentially a soldier and being a soldier doesn't just involve battlefield fighting. During WW2 he did alot of missions that involved infiltrating enemy bases. Then in the modern age there are lots of examples of him doing the same and sometimes going undercover. Why on earth do you think Cap was the leader of the Secret Avengers? That was essentially a black ops group.

So basically you're arguing that Batman knows more about espionage despite the fact that Cap had already had extensive experience in this area before Batman had even started his career. Lets not forget work involved in espionage continued into the modern age. Lets not forget that one of Caps main allies is Nick Fury the master of espionage and Cap has worked with him a million times. Batman doesn't have a relationship like Cap does with anybody in espionage.

He does it on his own, and spies on everyone at the same time. It'll be like Cap spying on SHIELD - Batman keeps tabs on Amanda Waller and Checkmate.

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Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Espionage = spying. You're thinking of something else.

Nope you're being too simplistic. What if a spy needs to break into somewhere to steal information? In order to get that information he will need to sneak in undetected and may have to fight some one (not arguing at this point wether Batman is better at infiltration just pointing out espionage is more complicated than you think it is). What if you need to find a person first before you can even spy on them? What about counter-espionage? That obvously is part of espionage and would defintely at some stage not involve spying.

Nick Fury is heavily involved in espionage if all he was good at was watching people without being seen he wouldn't be very good.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

And again, Batman takes this - the predicting your opponent's next moves bit. This is the guy who has prep plans for major players in the DCU.

Thats because hes good at building tech. That doesn't mean hes better at tactics and his raw intelligence is greater than Caps.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

Never said he spied every single issue. But he does it a hell of a lot more than Cap.

I've read a crapload of issues were he doesn't really do much more than sneak up on thugs and infiltrate places, which is something Cap has done alot of.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

So Cap has a different persona during the day, and during the night, and occasionally goes undercover as a third or 4th persona during the night as well?

Batman doesn't occasionaly take a third or 4th persona during night, stop exaggerating. I got the comics to prove it. Hell don't even think hes done that at all in the new Batman series yet. Yes Batman has done this but not as much as you're making out and Cap has taking on more than one persona before.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
And Batman has the Outsiders. And infiltrated the Injustice Society with his spies. And the Justice League Elite. And then created Batman Inc,a s well as the entire Bat family.

That doesn't prove anything. Cap still has his experience during ww2 and works more closely with people involved in espionage than Batman has in the modern age. Nick Fury, Black Widow and his current girlfriend is an important SHIELD agent and hes spied on her.

By default Cap will always have stronger ties to espionage than Batman does. Cap was a super soldier created by the government. Eventhough Batman has fought the likes of Darkseid his main role is a detective on the streets of Gotham.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

He does it on his own, and spies on everyone at the same time. It'll be like Cap spying on SHIELD - Batman keeps tabs on Amanda Waller and Checkmate.

Cap has spied on SHIELD. Again Batman is able to spy on them because of his tech. I think it's highly unlikely that Batman would be able to keep tabs on Nick Fury. The thing about Cap is he tends to work with people, Batman doesn't trust anyone and I'm not sure if that neccesarily makes you a better spy.

However sure Batman does spy more than Cap does but like I said the whole area of espionage doesn't just involve spying.

It amazes me that a few batman fanboys have continued the thread this long and made it into an actual debate when there should be nothing of the sort. Judging by the pages and the willingness of some to engage these fanboys, it appears to a competitive fight that it isn't. Most know Cap's wins this fight and it really isn't that close.. Don't let them actually make this a fight by responding and continuing.. There is no fight here. If I made a Eternity vs. regular superman.. Sure the fanboys might try and make it a fight but it would likely be closed for spite before the first page passes.. that is what should've happened here, even if that example is even worse spite. Point is, there is no fight here, and that should be the end of it... let the batman fanboys argue with themselves.

Were just discussing whose more intelligent.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
It amazes me that a few batman fanboys have continued the thread this long and made it into an actual debate when there should be nothing of the sort. Judging by the pages and the willingness of some to engage these fanboys, it appears to a competitive fight that it isn't. Most know Cap's wins this fight and it really isn't that close.. Don't let them actually make this a fight by responding and continuing.. There is no fight here. If I made a Eternity vs. regular superman.. Sure the fanboys might try and make it a fight but it would likely be closed for spite before the first page passes.. that is what should've happened here, even if that example is even worse spite. Point is, there is no fight here, and that should be the end of it... let the batman fanboys argue with themselves.

If this is the "anti fanboy", I'll side with the fanboys.

He's Captain America, not Iron Fist.

Cap's comparable skill + better physical stats makes the winner rather obvious

Originally posted by Silent Master
Cap's comparable skill + better physical stats makes the winner rather obvious

Not the point, though.

KT's post on this not even being debatable, or comparable to the Eternity vs Superman is worse than anything these supposed "fanboys" had to say.

He gave an exaggerated example to make a point, however the fact is that with comparable skill and better physical stats, the outcome of a strictly hth fight shouldn't be in question.

Certain Batman fans just can't admit when their guy would lose, it's like all those "whose more intelligent" threads where they spend pages arguing that Batman is just as smart as guys like Reed and Doom or that he can make better armor than Tony.

An exaggeration I pointed out as one in my post. The point remains the same, this is a none fight...

Originally posted by Silent Master
He gave an exaggerated example to make a point, however the fact is that with comparable skill and better physical stats, the outcome of a strictly hth fight shouldn't be in question.

Certain Batman fans just can't admit when their guy would lose, it's like all those "whose more intelligent" threads where they spend pages arguing that Batman is just as smart as guys like Reed and Doom or that he can make better armor than Tony.

Arguing Batman is even in Reed or Dooms ballpark is crazy talk, yes.

But it's not like Batman isn't in this, or someones a fanboy for trying to build an argument in his favor.. The man can knock out Grundy or hold his own with top tier martial artists (Shiva, Bronze Tiger..)

Comparable skill + better stats makes Cap the heavy favorite in a hth only fight.

Also, Kurupt, you'll see that we've all given Cap the win - hell, one of my first posts in this thread was giving Cap the win. But rather than arguing and flaming each other, we've decided to have a nice little debate.

MUST YOU HATE HAPPINESS SO????

Not everyone is giving Cap the win.

Originally posted by namorsubby
Batman wins 7/10. Physically comparable, better and smarter fighter.

Yeah, I disregarded his opinion lol. And I can see why you would argue with that definition of 'smarter', i.e. a smarter fighter.

Originally posted by cdtm
If this is the "anti fanboy", I'll side with the fanboys.

He's Captain America, not Iron Fist.

Yeah last time those two fought the super soldier was tossing Danny and catching his strikes like nothing.

He's definitely the one and only Captain America.

KMC is so Marvel-centered its sad. Non-fight? Cap stomps? You gotta be kidding me... I'm not a Batman fanboy (not even a fan) but even I see it's going to be one hell of a fight with Cap eventually winning. Steve is a little above peak humans like DD, Batman is a peak human. Both are ones of the best MAs in their universes. This in not going to be a stomp in anyone's favor. I barely read DC comics these days, only Marvel.. and even I have to admit that Marvel wanking is strong with KMC. Every time two comparable characters from the two universe face one another on KMC somehow it's always a stomp in marvel's favor...

Originally posted by SamZED
KMC is so Marvel-centered its sad. Non-fight? Cap stomps? You gotta be kidding me... I'm not a Batman fanboy (not even a fan) but even I see it's going to be one hell of a fight with Cap eventually winning. Steve is a little above peak humans like DD, Batman is a peak human. Both are ones of the best MAs in their universes. This in not going to be a stomp in anyone's favor. I barely read DC comics these days, only Marvel.. and even I have to admit that Marvel wanking is strong with KMC. Every time two comparable characters from the two universe face one another on KMC somehow it's always a stomp in marvel's favor...

no way... O_o

we are by far more objective than most comic forums.

Originally posted by Nietzschean
no way... O_o

we are by far more objective than most comic forums.