Marka Ragnos and Exar Kun vs. DE Sidious and NJO Luke

Since this seems to be a hotly contested match, we'll see how this goes.

The parameters of the fight: THe setting takes place in a coliseum, which is completely indestructable by any weapon or force power. The center pit is flat, sandy, and spreads about a quater of a square mile. Around the central pit are a huge set of stands, which the contestents can fight in. They may use the entirety of the pit, the stands, the corridors, the restrooms, &c of the Coliseum. However, they may not exit the area. If a part of their body touches the earth outside of the circumference of the Coliseum, they are eliminated from the fight.

Equipment: All individuals are able to come with their battle regalia, any equipment they possess and can carry on their person, and their weapon of choice. For Ragnos, he will have his scepter/sword, Kun will his have double-bladed lightsaber, etc. Obviously this means Kun can't take Sadow's ship or Sidious can't bring the Deathstar.

Qualification of Victory: A team can not win unless both members of the other team are either killed or eliminated via ringout. If an individual takes out the entire match because he is about to lose (for example, if Luke creates a black hole above the planet), then that team is automatically disqualified; this includes destruction on a planetary scale.

Statement of Power: All players come at the peak of their personal power. This means that Kun is presumably at his point on Yavin, before the ritual, Ragnos when he dominated over his opponents, DE Sidious at his peak, and Luke at the end of NJO.

Statement of Abilities: All force powers they have demonstrated or assumed as part of their innate abilities with their given equipment are eligible. For the purpose of this debate, all of Tavion's demonstrated abilities with her force scepter/sword can be used by Ragnos. Basic abilities such as telekinesis, force choke, sith lightning, and other force staples can be used by any of the contestants.

Outside Influence: No outside influence of any type may be used. Obviously this means Ragnos can not get Sadow and Kressh to attack his opponents, Kun does not have an army of Massassi, DE Sidious does not have his forces, and NJO Luke does not have the academy to back him up.

Collusion: For the purpose of the debate, both teams will be operating with perfect collusion.

By sheer saber skill alone, Luke would take either Kun or Ragnos. by force power scale alone, Luke's team wins....all memorabilia means Luke is fully entitled to his part of the Kaiburr crystal from mimban, that alone hurls the fight out of whack

Where's the support for Luke taking either of the two with just saber skills, I'd just like to see where you get that opinion.

Ragnos and Luke stalemate
Exar destroys Sidious
Exar and Ragnos proceed destroying Luke.

Resons:
Sidious is the weakest link there. He isn't a match for either Ragnos or Kun in a saber match, and force wise he might be able to stalemate Kun but since Kun has his nasty "instakill or throw people around like ragdolls" equipment at hand and Ragnos is even more powerful, Sidious is the first person that will die there.

And while I think that NJO Luke might be able to stalemate Ragnos (in terms of force powers and fighting ability), Ragnos and Kun combined are too much for him to take. So Ragnos and Kun win that fight.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
By sheer saber skill alone, Luke would take either Kun or Ragnos.

And then Luke wakes up from his wet dream and is pwned by the whirlwind of lightsaber destruction that is Exar Kun. One on one, Kun outclasses either member of the other team. Combined with Ragnos, it'll be Anakin vs. the Younglings all over again.

Mmhmm, keep thinking that. And Kun otuclasses NJO Luke? When he can kill seven elite warriors in seconds AFTER cutting through an army and still have enough to kill Shimrra...Kun compares to NJO Luke how? We've seen Luke defeat armies, crush Sith and grow far stronger than when it took Kun double teaming him wuith Kyp to stop him.

Amazing, provide PROOF of Sidious's dominance and Luke's...not to mention Luke'd have a Kaiburr crystal to amplify his power quite a bit.

Lightsaber whirlwind? The same Exar Kun who stalemated an injrued, exhausted, sith poisoned Ulic Qel-Droma/

An exhausted, injured, sith-poisoned Ulic? Is that why it was necessary for several Jedi including the rather-large Qrrl Toq to restrain him? Is that why he's obviously well enough to sex up Aleema?

Do you actually think that in the intervening time between this duel and The Sith War that Exar Kun didn't improve despite the fact that he has even more amulets in TSW? Good to know your mind's made up, fanboy.

And Ulic didn't? We see him best Mandalore when Mandalore had every advantage And considering Aleema's a massive corrupting influence and he earlier had fought Satal, pulled himself up andchased off his friends....how could he possibly be at his ebst as opposed to Kun? And why isn't Aleema dead now? After all, one of Kun's magical beams of power should've killed ehr, especially as that was what he came there to do.

And both are master swordsmen, good for them! Then and all the other three swordsmen in this topic. When Kun can kill seven slayers after fighting an army and kill Shimrra, crush a small army of stormtroopers led by a powerful darksider, defeat Lord Shadowspawn and his men, take down numerous dark Jedi to just toy with Brakiss and crush Lumiya like a bug...

Originally posted by IKC
The Sith War that Exar Kun didn't improve despite the fact that he has even more amulets in TSW? [/B]

He had *MORE* amulets did he? Interesting... most interesting... bwahaha. *Cough.*

Urm, yeah, as for the battle. I really couldn't say, probably Marka/Exar, though Luke/Sids would last a bloody long time... maybe take one of them down with them. I think Luke could take either individually - but I honestly don't know that much about Marka Ragnos other than "he ruled the Sith Empire for 100 years"

Oh, and that his spirit lost a fight with Jaden Korr.

Edit- Lightsnake has a point. Exar Kun and Ulic weren't that far apart in power... Kun just had access to more "bling", what with his being the designated Dark Lord and all. Take away all his Sith bling, and I think we'd see a far less uber Kun. Of course, I can't prove that - and for this battle he has access to all his neato toys so...

That's really all anyone knows

And Ulic didn't? We see him best Mandalore when Mandalore had every advantage

OH EM GEE! He bested a non-force user! Wow, that's relevant!

Ulic didn't improve at the rate Kun did. Ulic is never shown to have even learned Sith magic. Hell, Aleema's probably superior to him in that area.

and he earlier had fought Satal, pulled himself up andchased off his friends

Uh, read the comic. He chased off his friends twice, the last time when they attacked Cinnagar and it required Cay, Qrrl Toq, and a human male Jedi named Oron just to hold him down. Ulic was obviously well. He was not exhausted or weakened in any way. The fight was some time after he killed Satal, definitely not the same day.

You lose. Ulic was performing as best as he could.

And, if you'll read the comic, it's obvious that Kun didn't shoot her with the same beam, since it didn't rip right through her. I doubt she's made of stronger stuff than Sadow's beast. This would, of course, make sense given that Kun knew Ulic to be the greater threat. All he had to do was incapacitate her for the time being.

When Kun can kill seven slayers after fighting an army and kill Shimrra, crush a small army of stormtroopers led by a powerful darksider, defeat Lord Shadowspawn and his men, take down numerous dark Jedi to just toy with Brakiss and crush Lumiya like a bug...

Ooh, feat wars and logical fallacies!

Okay. When either of these two can toy with and pwn centuries-and-millenia-old Jedi Masters, freeze a senate of millions of beings, etc etc...

Oh, and that his spirit lost a fight with Jaden Korr.

5000 years after his death and as a spirit. Spirits are weaker than flesh and blood, and they lose power over time as evidenced by Obi-Wan's inability to continue to appear to Luke, etc.

Edit- Lightsnake has a point. Exar Kun and Ulic weren't that far apart in power... Kun just had access to more "bling", what with his being the designated Dark Lord and all.

Nonsense. Exar and Ulic were only equal, for a time, in lightsaber ability. Exar had more artifacts, more Force potential, and more knowledge of the Force than Ulic ever did. Remember, Ulic never learned Sith Magic.

Take away all his Sith bling, and I think we'd see a far less uber Kun. Of course, I can't prove that - and for this battle he has access to all his neato toys so...

Okay, take away Sidious' arms and legs "and we'd see a far less uber Sidious."

Of course you can't prove that, because it'd require evidence and logic. Gut feelings are worthless in a debate.

Who said I was engaging in a debate? That would actually mean I had to be trying to argue some kind of point. I'm not trying to prove anything, just say what I think...

The limbs comparison isn't the best one you could have thought up though... I mean, how is it fair if Kun has his limbs but Sidious doesn't have his? Reeks of Monty Python to me, though I imagine Sidious would display the same fighting spirit as the black knight.

The beaten by Jaden Korr thing was just a little joke - I don't really think it reflects too badly on Ragnos. Everyone has something they're ashamed of.

Considering that the "Obi-Wan's ghost fades away eventually" was written way before we got the "eternal life/influence" explanation however, I think we'll soon find out that he was just talking from a "certain point of view" once again, and wanted Luke to find solutions to his own problems as opposed to being unable to appear.

Really I think it's pretty ridiculous that the so much of the EU has managed to survive with all the prequel revelations, but I quite like it, so I can look past it.

If you're going to make a stand and say what you think, people are going to challenge you on it. This is a debate.

And the "limbs comparison" was a parody. Whenever I see someone asserting, "Well okay, take this away and character X will win!" I think fanboy. What is actually proved if you're going to cripple a character just so another can win?

Regarding the "eternal life" question, I don't think they're incompatible. Perhaps they do have eternal life but this may not mean they can appear to the truly living at will. Nothing in ROTS suggests that.

Originally posted by IKC
If you're going to make a stand and say what you think, people are going to challenge you on it. This is a debate.

Ack, you got me!

And the "limbs comparison" was a parody.

I did both realise and appreciate, which I why I brought Monty Python into it... maybe if I'd added the [ laughing ] [ /laughing ] it would have been clearer.

Whenever I see someone asserting, "Well okay, take this away and character X will win!" I think fanboy. What is actually proved if you're going to cripple a character just so another can win?

Normally I'd agree with you, but I already know that Kun plus amulets owns. And they're not as fundamental to his character as say... wolverine's claws. I'm interested in whether or not Kun would be as badass even without his twink gear - sadly, it looks like I'll never know, since as you've established elsewhere, that Kun is a relatively unknown quantity.

Regarding the "eternal life" question, I don't think they're incompatible. Perhaps they do have eternal life but this may not mean they can appear to the truly living at will. Nothing in ROTS suggests that.

It's implied in the novel that they continue to influence the world of the living... though you're right, nothing in the actual *film* suggests that.

Originally posted by IKC
OH EM GEE! He bested a non-force user! Wow, that's relevant!

Ulic didn't improve at the rate Kun did. Ulic is never shown to have even learned Sith magic. Hell, Aleema's probably superior to him in that area.

Uh, read the comic. He chased off his friends twice, the last time when they attacked Cinnagar and it required Cay, Qrrl Toq, and a human male Jedi named Oron just to hold him down. Ulic was obviously well. He was not exhausted or weakened in any way. The fight was some time after he killed Satal, definitely not the same day.

You lose. Ulic was performing as best as he could.

And, if you'll read the comic, it's obvious that Kun didn't shoot her with the same beam, since it didn't rip right through her. I doubt she's made of stronger stuff than Sadow's beast. This would, of course, make sense given that Kun knew Ulic to be the greater threat. All he had to do was incapacitate her for the time being.

Ooh, feat wars and logical fallacies!

Okay. When either of these two can toy with and pwn centuries-and-millenia-old Jedi Masters, freeze a senate of millions of beings, etc etc...

5000 years after his death and as a spirit. Spirits are weaker than flesh and blood, and they lose power over time as evidenced by Obi-Wan's inability to continue to appear to Luke, etc.

Nonsense. Exar and Ulic were only equal, for a time, in lightsaber ability. Exar had more artifacts, more Force potential, and more knowledge of the Force than Ulic ever did. Remember, Ulic never learned Sith Magic.

Okay, take away Sidious' arms and legs "and we'd see a far less uber Sidious."

Of course you can't prove that, because it'd require evidence and logic. Gut feelings are worthless in a debate.

1. And Mandalore was only the head of a warrior sect who've been known to kill Jedi. By that logic, nothing special about Revan

2. which begs the question: How did Ulic use that amulet in DlotS? How did Exar not blow Ulic away from the start? Or Aleema for that matter?

3. As best he could: Which's still after exertion, using Sith power and poison, with possible injury. And apparently Kun could just fire without any reload? Why not blow Aleema to bits and then kill Ulic? He came there to kill them

4. When Odan-Urr ever showed himself to be anything special instead of an impotent weakling...

5. Proof spirits are weaker than flesh and blood? Unlike Obi-wan, Exar had the power of the Massassi, not to mention a place that was a focal point of his power

6. Right, because amulets and artifacts are as part of someone as arms and legs...

As it's already been stated, Luke and Ragnos are pretty much equal as far as we can tell, though it's a little shady as all the info on Ragnos is conjecture and assumptions. Still, I think they'd make good opponents for each other.

Now, Kun vs Sids is very much the same. I'm going to give Kun the benefit of the doubt and say he could win, albeit with some difficulty, in saber to saber combat, especially considering that Sids lost to DE Luke, though that may have been after Luke's power was augmented, which would only help him. Still, Sids has the single most impressive show of force lightning in the history of it's use, not to mention the draining of the people of Byss.

With all this being said, it comes to which of either duo will defeat his opponent first so they can two team the other. I really think this ends a stalemate, but I'm leaning towards Kun and Ragnos only because Sid's will have a tough time keeping Kun at bay (unless of course he manges to get a force storm off, in which case i think sids might win, but again, it's unlikely.)

1. And Mandalore was only the head of a warrior sect who've been known to kill Jedi. By that logic, nothing special about Revan

WTF? When we were debating Revan against Sidious you claimed that Revan beating Mandalore meant nothing since he was simply a non-force sensitive human warrior. But somehow when it supports your statement, Ulic doing the same thing actually counts? Can we say "hypocrisy"?

4. When Odan-Urr ever showed himself to be anything special instead of an impotent weakling...

Yeah, he's only a virtual Jedi sage and a veteran of the Great Hyperspace Wars. What a weakling...

5. Proof spirits are weaker than flesh and blood? Unlike Obi-wan, Exar had the power of the Massassi, not to mention a place that was a focal point of his power

Let's see:

- Obi-Wan and Yoda as spirits could not/would not challenge Vader and/or Sidious.

- Ajunta Pall's spirit was overcome by Revan and his crew, despite Pall being an incredible warrior and Sith Lord.

- Force spirits do not retain the living component of their former bodies. If you paid attention during ESB and read the literature, you would see that life creates AND sustains the Force. Without a body to sustain it, the force apparation weakens obviously.

- Sidious' spirit didn't WTFpwn Luke and co. but instead fled to a viable body.

So really, it makes no sense that a spirit would be equal to or stronger than the real deal at all. And until you have proof to support the idea that they are the same strength (When the evidence does not support this at all) you need to stow it.

6. Right, because amulets and artifacts are as part of someone as arms and legs...

Do you have -any- idea of the power levels of ancient Sith Lords without their equipment? No, you don't. Exar Kun wasn't a Sith Lord, drawing on the dark side until he had an amulet. Sadow and others always had them on. Since you cannot specify how much the amulets empower them (Not that it would matter anyways since they would presumably always be using them) the point is moot.

As it's already been stated, Luke and Ragnos are pretty much equal as far as we can tell, though it's a little shady as all the info on Ragnos is conjecture and assumptions. Still, I think they'd make good opponents for each other.

How much of "the most powerful of the most powerful" is conjecture? We know he was not just good, but purely dominant. We know no one dared to attack him on his death bed. We know that Ludo Kressh submitted to him as "the Dark Lord" after he came from the dead, we know the Naga Sadow, Ludo Kressh, Exar Kun, and Ulic Qel-Droma all stopped their fighting and submitted to his will. He is described repeatedly as a godlike and terrible foe. He "dominated" over other ancient Sith that could make the Jedi of Revan's time look like children with lightsabers. He ruled unquestioned and with an iron fist over a wealthy Empire for over a hundred years -- an empire where the strong rules. He put "the most powerful Sith Magician of his time"'s head in a jar and still decided to keep him around. His passing into the Dark Side was so powerful, Odan-Urr felt it all the way in REPUBLIC SPACE. From other EU sources, he has a scepter that can drain the force from entire PLANETS even in the hands of a relative weakling like Tavion. It can imbue non-force sensitives with force powers and lightsaber abilities. It can cut through buildings with ease.

Don't tell me that all we know is conjecture and assumptions. Use your brain a bit and you'd see that every single of his descriptions is one of absolute titanic power.

I love the logical fallacy of people around here. We have all the logic and evidence suggesting Ragnos was some uber lord over the Dark Side, yet somehow, someway, using some paragon of twisted logic, they assume the very worse out of him. What low showing are you going off of? His defeat to Jaden? His 5000 year old spirit's defeat to Jaden when he possessed a body that was already beaten? His defeat that didn't even kill him?

Funny, truly funny.

How is Luke equal? Because he fired "green lightning"? Because he was shown in the movies? Because he controlled a black hole (a feat duplicated by one of his OWN TIME)? Because he slashed through some Vong?

I'd personally bet on Ragnos do slash through those same Vong, particularly since he is renowned for "immense physical strength and a frightening grasp of the force." And I'd rather face Vong than 20 Sith Lords who were described as "godlike" entities with "titanic" power.

Now, Kun vs Sids is very much the same. I'm going to give Kun the benefit of the doubt and say he could win, albeit with some difficulty, in saber to saber combat, especially considering that Sids lost to DE Luke, though that may have been after Luke's power was augmented, which would only help him. Still, Sids has the single most impressive show of force lightning in the history of it's use, not to mention the draining of the people of Byss.

By that same notion, JA Luke, which is after DE Luke, said they would need the entirety of the Jedi Academy's forces to stop Ragnos if he were ressurected. By game mechanics of JK:A, if you beat Tavion the first time, you officially (canonical wording) "thwarted" her plans of ressurecting Ragnos.

Ergo? Ragnos never manifested, he simply had his spirit possess a weakling of a body and likely assumed all the limitations. And yet? The body suddenly had a huge force power augmentation and had a speed bonus you wouldn't believe.

And Kun? The guy who tore holes in temple walls just by blasting them? The guy who froze the entire Senate and casually waltzed his way in? The guy who tossed Sylvar with such ease that it was almost comical? The guy who broke through Vodo's staff that was "stronger than a lightsaber" according to the omniscient narrator? The guy who destroyed a 400 year old spirit that had the ability to instakill other force users? The guy who stockpiled so many secrets of the sith that he could never even use it all? The guy who was practically crowned by "the Dark Lord of the Sith" as the second coming of the Golden Age? The guy that single-handedly required the largest collection of Jedi in history to simultaneously converge on his base of operations?

Yeah, that guy. What logical evidence do you have for Sidious? Force storm? What about the blasts that Exar casted repeatedly that shredded an ancient Sith Alchemical Creature?

Can force storm be focused on a single opponent? Can he use it without taking out the battlefield? Can he do it while Kun brings his double-bladed lightsaber down on him? If he can't, it's not within the rules. And the draining of the planet is hardly so impressive when we see Tavion doing the same thing to a number of planets with the scepter. I personally think what Zonama Sekot and Nihilus did were far more impressive.

1. And Mandalore was only the head of a warrior sect who've been known to kill Jedi. By that logic, nothing special about Revan

Except that he also walked into the Star Forge and beat down a Jedi renowned for his battle prowess WHILE he was boosted by the power of the Starforge.

2. which begs the question: How did Ulic use that amulet in DlotS? How did Exar not blow Ulic away from the start? Or Aleema for that matter?

How does this retort to his point?

Oh wait, it doesn't. It's irrelevant misdirection and logical fallacy. You're arguing with what's literally portrayed and is shown and direct inductive observations from the text.

A better question would be if Sidious had "discovered the darkest secrets" of the Sith, how come he didn't use the artifacts and other paraphenelia? He'd be stupid to not use stuff that boosted his power. Ergo, he either a) doesn't have them, b) is retarded, or c) the DE Sourcebook is outdated and has been shown redundant (e.g. mentioning the Sith Order as 2000 years old instead of the 5000+ that it really is like in later canon.)

5. Proof spirits are weaker than flesh and blood? Unlike Obi-wan, Exar had the power of the Massassi, not to mention a place that was a focal point of his power

The proof is in Obi-Wan. He's stated a fact. Spirits like Obi-Wan and Anakin get weaker over time and are no longer able to influence and visit the living.

Law of debates tells me you have to disprove this. If he was stronger in death than life, how come he didn't use blasts that he did in life? How come he didn't use the instakill attacks he's SHOWN to have? Logic dictates he isn't stronger. You arguing against first order logic shows you're a fanboy.

6. Right, because amulets and artifacts are as part of someone as arms and legs...

STFU.

Did you not read the first post? Artifacts are perfectly legal in this fight.

Tell me, place Kun's power EXACTLY with the artifacts and show observed evidence for this. Show me where it says something to the effect that "an amulet increases force power exponentially" or something like that. I'm confident you won't find something to that effect, why? BECAUSE I READ THE COMICS.

So stop griping about amulet this, artifact that. The listed parameters are already in the first post. You trying to change them is simply trying to load the die so Sidious and Luke wins.

Guess what?

Feat wars don't make someone win. By that logic, because Sidious never created superweapons with the force, he's not anywhere near as powerful as Naga Sadow. Or because he didn't rule UNQUESTIONED, and was never dethroned, over an Empire of Sith under their "golden age" he'll never touch Ragnos.

Same concept. Silly conclusions.

Zee pwnage!