Marka Ragnos and Exar Kun vs. DE Sidious and NJO Luke

Everyone? Cute. ecause IKC's word is law. Because I admitted what I was wrong on there.

Because only IKC has called you a fanboy before, right? That's a naive comment.

Waaait, providing ACTUAL info to what he used-and I can prove all my comments on Mace and Yoda- is being a fanboy?

If you claim that because Mace put Sidious on his ass, he's the best ever, or something to that effect, yes. You are being a fanboy.

And since Sidious is demonstrated to be a 'titan' and 'godlike' WITHOUT artifacts....if Sadow didn't need his ship to destroy stars, wouldn't he have done so?

If Sidious had artifacts, wouldn't he have used them? The fact of the matter is that you can't distinguish where his power ends. Hell, even when Sidious' hand was hewn, you saw trinkets scatter. No artifacts is a stretch that was not supported by the narration.

And me makign this personal? Please, you and IKC started the attacks long ago.

What personal attacks? I argued your were a hypocrite by pointing out specific pieces of your argument. I argued that your passages were logical fallacy.

You have not refuted the claim. So I'm just going to assume that even you admit to using fallacious logic and bad debating skills.

You can ignore that passage I posted all you want but until you deal with it, I have the advantage. Says there Palpatine learned all aspects of the force, from the Sith to the Jedi to the Nightsisters.

And does it claim that this makes him superior to Kun? Who existed 2000 years OUTSIDE of DE continuity?

Have you ever even countered that retconn point? No? Too bad.

And really? Your logical fallacies are boundless. Lets ignore how good Mace and Yoda were! Only declared the best swordsman and greatest avatar of light respectively! Let's ignore Vader was a Chosen one and how strong Vader was!

Where was Mace declared the best swordsman? He was declared one of the best swordsman. He was declared as a prodigy. I'm a defender for Mace's skills, so stop trying to turn the tables.

You taking "one of the best swordsman" in the Jedi Order into "the best swordsman" is example of fanboyism.

Yoda declared an avatar of light? I must have missed the part where that proves he's the best thing since swiss cheese.

Let's ignore Vader was a Chosen one and how strong Vader was!

Like how "Chosen One" Vader was beaten by "what a god" Obi-Wan? Or like how he, even without a hand, still managed to benchpress Sidious into a reactor core?

You haven't answered for any of these points. You've just played the role of apologist.

Funny how you say I'm ignoring them. I never personally degraded them like you did Vodo or Odan-Urr, now did I? That's fanboyism, that's logical fallacy. Applying your own spin to "one of the best" swordsman is logical fallacy. Thanks for giving me ammo against you.

But no, point out something Sidious did, it's INSTANTLY-from the START of all these debates- said how he died, and ignored how strong he wactually was, ignored all he's done, ignored how he used the Siths' greatest weapon to as good as it was ever used.

You don't seem to realize that's what I'm mocking you for right?

You are the one that mentions only his high showings while comparing the low showings of the ancient Sith. You are the one that only argues the result and simply glosses over the other details.

I'm not ignoring them, I'm mocking your logic, as evidence with this:

I can do the same thing:

AKA, I can use the same twisted and one-sided logic you're applying.

It's ignored how Kun lost, ignored how Ragnos screwed up for what? Because he's praised by random people?

When did Ragnos screw up? He's the dark lord of the sith, he's the keeper of the order, he crowned future Dark Lords. How did he screw up? He accomplished everything an individual Sith could ask to accomplish. If anything, Naga screwed up, but that doesn't diminish his personal abilities.

Because he's praised by random people? I actually provided an essay with numerous sources showing what he has and has done and still, NOTHING

"And I provided a counteressay to why it was retconned. And still... NOTHING"

It's easy to play victim Lightsnake. Emperor Revan did it, Darth Somebody did it, hell, even IKC did it when I debated with him. You're just another link in a long chain. And if you think you can win with one-sided logic, you're in for a long ride, I'll point it out every time.

1. You, IKC....noone calls IKC a Kun fanboy, or anyone else another kind of fanboy...hell, anyone could call a lot of people Ragnos fanboys.

2. Please, It was known of Mace's sword prowess long before Ep. 3. I had the belief since Shatterpoint and ROTS novelization only confirmed it.

3. What trinkets? That was either bites of whatever the hell composed his clone or whatever suit he was wearing and given that he was only dressed in black robes...And he didn't need to use them, plain and simple. Read that essay: He littered his room with sith artifacts.

4. I just SAID: Repost them. I see no reason to waste my time with it when I admitted to my mistakes with IKC. and the hypocrisy is on both ends here

5. DE appears in the Dark Side Sourcebook and new Essential Chronology. Get the hell over it, it's never been retconned and you can't prove it has. Yeah, apparently Sidious mastered all aspects of the Force. Kun didn't.

6. Yoda and Dooku were better duelists then Mace, I know this. However, Mace's little Shatterpoint ability, his physical strength and possible other factors influence a lot. and page....396 in the novelization for Yoda, I believe, among other things.

7. As opposed to 'He got killed by a robot' before I even STARTED arguing? Odan and Vodo never did anything impressive...we saw Vodo fail as a teacher in every way possible, we saw Odan fail in the war...

8. Vader was already momentously strong with Robotic limbs. We've seen him lift fully grown men of the ground-in ANH- with one arm....Palpatine isn't exactly physically imposing, I'll say that. When he fought Obi-wan, Anakin's emotions and thoughts were plainly messed up due to the Padme thing. And Obi-wan trained Anakin...of course he'd know his fighting style very well.

9. How many of them posted actual proof to actual written statements? It said in no uncertain terms Sidious's mastery and I have a bevy of others. Now, how did Revan screw up? He failed to reappear to save the Sith from Naga, he led the empire to stagnation and didn't deal with Simus and Naga's dissendent faction....he should've appointed a clear chain to prevent the empire from falling into dissaray upon his death....he knew what would happen...

1. You, IKC....noone calls IKC a Kun fanboy, or anyone else another kind of fanboy...hell, anyone could call a lot of people Ragnos fanboys.

I called IKC a Kun fanboy. Don't bring that shit around here.

2. Please, It was known of Mace's sword prowess long before Ep. 3. I had the belief since Shatterpoint and ROTS novelization only confirmed it.

Again, here you go again. I never doubted that he was a great swordsman. I admitted he was "one of the best." But it is not expressed that he is the best (absolute) as you put it.

That's the difference. Do not take subjectives and make them absolutes at your own discretion.

3. What trinkets? That was either bites of whatever the hell composed his clone or whatever suit he was wearing and given that he was only dressed in black robes...And he didn't need to use them, plain and simple. Read that essay: He littered his room with sith artifacts.

Not needing to use them is a copout. He either doesn't have them, doesn't know how, or is too stupid to see the practical purpose in using them. There is no reason for me to try to walk to work everyday if I have a sports car with unlimited gas.

4. I just SAID: Repost them. I see no reason to waste my time with it when I admitted to my mistakes with IKC. and the hypocrisy is on both ends here

I posted them in a long post, why didn't you refute them there? If you are too caught up to notice that I'm undermining your logical basis, perhaps you really have to evaluate your stance.

5. DE appears in the Dark Side Sourcebook and new Essential Chronology. Get the hell over it, it's never been retconned and you can't prove it has. Yeah, apparently Sidious mastered all aspects of the Force. Kun didn't.

It's retconned because the dates. are. off.

The Sourcebook and DE does not reference the existence of an ANCIENT SITH EMPIRE that existed far before the dates provided. In fact, in the sourcebook, they even went so far as to EXCLUDE their existence. Ergo, when Anderson made them exist, he had to fudge around with their prior timeline, making the entire comparison in DE moot when put into continuity with the older sith.

You arguing that I can't prove it doesn't mean I haven't.

6. Yoda and Dooku were better duelists then Mace, I know this. However, Mace's little Shatterpoint ability, his physical strength and possible other factors influence a lot. and page....396 in the novelization for Yoda, I believe, among other things.

The novelization also describes Sidious as getting his lightsaber slashed away instead of kicked. Both the movie and novelization describe him as being beaten by Mace. If you're arguing Mace is greater than Ragnos, you should try to prove that too.

7. As opposed to 'He got killed by a robot' before I even STARTED arguing? Odan and Vodo never did anything impressive...we saw Vodo fail as a teacher in every way possible, we saw Odan fail in the war...

Being revered Jedi Masters for centuries isn't impressive? So Yoda didn't do anything impressive. He fought Dooku to a stalemate and tactically lost to Sidious. Right?

Don't degrade characters that don't fit into your argument. Pure. and. Simple. Odan and Vodo two of the most powerful and revered Jedi in the entire order of "thousands." That is mentioned in canon and should not be disputed.

8. Vader was already momentously strong with Robotic limbs. We've seen him lift fully grown men of the ground-in ANH- with one arm....Palpatine isn't exactly physically imposing, I'll say that. When he fought Obi-wan, Anakin's emotions and thoughts were plainly messed up due to the Padme thing. And Obi-wan trained Anakin...of course he'd know his fighting style very well.

That doesn't make Obi-Wan a sudden god. The point of the matter is that simply because he was the "Chosen One" does not make him a saber or force god. He has never demonstrated any of that. Ergo, him throwing Sidious down the core diminishes Sidious.

If Naga Sadow is diminished because Gav fires at him while he is meditating, Sidious is certainly diminished there.

9. How many of them posted actual proof to actual written statements? It said in no uncertain terms Sidious's mastery and I have a bevy of others. Now, how did Revan screw up? He failed to reappear to save the Sith from Naga, he led the empire to stagnation and didn't deal with Simus and Naga's dissendent faction....he should've appointed a clear chain to prevent the empire from falling into dissaray upon his death....he knew what would happen...

Emperor Revan is another individual that used to post on this board.

Why should Ragnos deal with their dissention? Sidious never proclaimed an heir either, does that mean he failed? Ragnos achieved the pinnacle of Sith achievement in the Ancient Empire, the stated Golden Age and zenith of their power. He dominated over some of the greatest Sith magicians of all time. In fact, he foresaw what would happen and told Naga not to do it. Naga was a hothead, Ragnos was not.

In the same way that Sidious had no control of Vader when he threatened his values.

And again, I fail to see how appointing a chain would have meant he was not as great an individual. Is Peter the Great diminished because he had no heir? Is Queen Elizabeth diminished because she had no children? Is George Washington diminished because he had no heirs?

You're confusing personal and political accomplishments. I've conceded Sidious is probably the greatest politician in the galaxy's history, he is not the strongest fighter in the course of its history and the only source that remotely claims that does not take into account the Ancient Sith.

Originally posted by Illustrious
I called IKC a Kun fanboy. Don't bring that shit around here.

Again, here you go again. I never doubted that he was a great swordsman. I admitted he was "[b]one of the best." But it is not expressed that he is the best (absolute) as you put it.

That's the difference. Do not take subjectives and make them absolutes at your own discretion.

Not needing to use them is a copout. He either doesn't have them, doesn't know how, or is too stupid to see the practical purpose in using them. There is no reason for me to try to walk to work everyday if I have a sports car with unlimited gas.

I posted them in a long post, why didn't you refute them there? If you are too caught up to notice that I'm undermining your logical basis, perhaps you really have to evaluate your stance.

It's retconned because the dates. are. off.

The Sourcebook and DE does not reference the existence of an ANCIENT SITH EMPIRE that existed far before the dates provided. In fact, in the sourcebook, they even went so far as to EXCLUDE their existence. Ergo, when Anderson made them exist, he had to fudge around with their prior timeline, making the entire comparison in DE moot when put into continuity with the older sith.

You arguing that I can't prove it doesn't mean I haven't.

The novelization also describes Sidious as getting his lightsaber slashed away instead of kicked. Both the movie and novelization describe him as being beaten by Mace. If you're arguing Mace is greater than Ragnos, you should try to prove that too.

Being revered Jedi Masters for centuries isn't impressive? So Yoda didn't do anything impressive. He fought Dooku to a stalemate and tactically lost to Sidious. Right?

Don't degrade characters that don't fit into your argument. Pure. and. Simple. Odan and Vodo two of the most powerful and revered Jedi in the entire order of "thousands." That is mentioned in canon and should not be disputed.

That doesn't make Obi-Wan a sudden god. The point of the matter is that simply because he was the "Chosen One" does not make him a saber or force god. He has never demonstrated any of that. Ergo, him throwing Sidious down the core diminishes Sidious.

If Naga Sadow is diminished because Gav fires at him while he is meditating, Sidious is certainly diminished there.

Emperor Revan is another individual that used to post on this board.

Why should Ragnos deal with their dissention? Sidious never proclaimed an heir either, does that mean he failed? Ragnos achieved the pinnacle of Sith achievement in the Ancient Empire, the stated Golden Age and zenith of their power. He dominated over some of the greatest Sith magicians of all time. In fact, he foresaw what would happen and told Naga not to do it. Naga was a hothead, Ragnos was not.

In the same way that Sidious had no control of Vader when he threatened his values.

And again, I fail to see how appointing a chain would have meant he was not as great an individual. Is Peter the Great diminished because he had no heir? Is Queen Elizabeth diminished because she had no children? Is George Washington diminished because he had no heirs?

You're confusing personal and political accomplishments. I've conceded Sidious is probably the greatest politician in the galaxy's history, he is not the strongest fighter in the course of its history and the only source that remotely claims that does not take into account the Ancient Sith. [/B]

1. Fine, I'm sorry.

2. I just SAID Mace wasn't the best. He was easily one of the best, was my entire point.

3. Or since his fury unbound tears the fabric of the universe, artifacts are superfluous. If you want a real answer: He was fighting Luke at the time he didn't have them at hand when Luke turned back to the light. They'd be on Byss at the time

4. You shouldn't have an issue posting them again.

5. You've failed to do this: Provide, in DE where they give dates on the Ancient Empire. YOU. CANNOT. IT was retconned in the NEC and never mentioned in DE. DE's dates were NEVER ONCE RETCONNED. And Went so far as to exclude them? The Dark Side sourcebook didn't! It discussed them at length! And how could they exclude what was only in development? That makes no sense. DE's continuity hinges upon a false claim and DE is in the NEC and Dark Side sourcebook.

6. And the entire controversy is Sidious faking. the novelization is still continuity oin matters it doesn't contradict. It's secondary in canon before other EU.

7. Coleman Trebor was a revered Jedi master. Odan was reknowned for wisdom. We've seen Yoda do a great deal, too....from containing a flow of dark side power, to moving a temple, to blocking lightning with bare hands...we've seen the OJO constantly screw up and show weakness

8. He. Was. Destined. To. Kill. Sidious. And Vader demonstrated incredible strength before. From the Dark Woman, to Shadday's men, to Hapes....Obi-wan was a damn good fighter and Jedi. Naga made Gav his number 2 right there...and sent him to attack his own city, that's just....

9. Unlike Ragnos, Sidious had a method of eternal life. I mean, Ragnos should've had some kind of chain of command...he KNEW what Naga's folly would do. He could easily have killed Naga and ended the threat, or backed Kressh....

Can't we just concede that while Sidious can be considered the "greatest" Dark Lord of the Sith, considering all he accomplished, he cannot be considered the most "powerful" Dark Lord of the Sith?

Sidious' strength lies in cunning, smoke and mirrors and manipulation. Did he take his master head on? No, he killed him in his sleep.

Did he want to fight Yoda once he'd seen the guy survive a blast from his lightening? No. He was running away.

Similarly, the Chosen One was destined to destroy the Sith - not Sidious. George Lucas has specifically said that while the prophesy is true, the route to fulfilling it was never set in stone.

Anyone could have killed *Sidious* - the Prophesy isn't about Sidious, it's about the Chosen One destroying the Sith. It just so happened that in the end, "The Sith" was Sidious, but it didn't *have* to be Sidious*, anymore than Anakin *had* to turn to the dark side to fulfill his destiny. George Lucas said: "Anakin could have fulfilled the prophesy in Palpatine's office" - that's what makes his fall all the more tragic.

* What I mean to say is, before Dooku died, someone could have killed Sidious - and then Anakin would have fulfilled the prophesy by killing Dooku. Similarly, Plagueis could have seen through Sidious betrayal and killed him, then Anakin would have to destroy Plagueis... etc etc. I used to think that there was no free-will in the GFFA, but comments made by Lucas have basically shown me that I'm wrong.

End of the day. Sidious lost to Mace Windu. Regardless of whether Mace is "one of the best swordsmen" or not, due to his defeat, I cannot consider Palps to be "most powerful Sith ever"

Give that accolade to someone who doesn't get kicked in the face.

8. Being destined to kill Sidious does not make you great... It just makes you a killer simple as that. This proofs nothing.

9. The most powerful will rule, the only way he could have a made a structure of command is by killing the most powerful under him, which would have made him look weak. It would be an incredibly stupid thing to do.

There's also the fact that Palp was considered to improve substantially, the 'faking' controversy, among other things...

Originally posted by Lightsnake
There's also the fact that Palp was considered to improve substantially, the 'faking' controversy, among other things...

What "faking" controversy ? Faking the fight against Mace ? That was ended by Lucas himself on the ROTS commentary. You should listen to him.
- Mace did overpower Sidious
- Sidious can't brake through Mace's defence with force lightning (and then fakes to have no power any longer to keep his - USELESS - attack up)
- the lightning reflected back at him did destroy his skin.

So without Anakin coming in and disarming Mace, Sidious would have been a dead man. So by ROTS Mace > him.
For the OT Lucas himself said that Vader is 80 % of Sidious. Yet imagine Vader + 20 % more power and tell me he's compareable to people like Kun, Ragnos and so on. He is NOT.

In DE:
In terms of lightsaber fighting he's inferior to Luke which makes him even look worse compared to ROTS unless you want to argue that Luke with virtually no fighting experience in lightsaber duels is on top of Mace Windu - a lightsaber prodigy with 50 years of expirience handling that weapon.
Force wise he wasn't able to protect himself against DE Luke using some power from Leia and the unborn Anakin. The same Luke that couldn't protect himself against an attack of Exar Kun's half-mad, 4000 year old spirit and a Padawan who was trained in the Dark Side for some weeks. The same Luke that 10 years later suggests that it would take the power of the entire Academy (including himself, Jacen, Jaina, Kyp and so on) to take down a living Ragnos.

So really...what do you want to debate ? Sidious is the victim here and nothing more.

Lucas said nothing on the force lightning...in fact, he said Palpatine was faking weakness there. And according to Lucas? Constant use of the dark side deformed Palpatine. And in the EU? Yeah, it supports the idea that Palpatine altered himself completely. Noone ever seems to have any idea why it didn't deform Mace or Luke....why it didn't rot their teeth, change their voice and turn their eyes Sith yellow.

If Anakin hadn't come in, Sidious would've pulled out the Force and bye bye, Mace. I want definite proof Sidious didn't fake the lightning, because Lucas said "We always had in mind Mace overpowering Palpatine' (Oh, overpowering...never mind Sidious had a spare and the the fight hadn't ended anymore than it had when Maul had Obi-wan over a melting pit) 'Then Anakin comes in and Palpatine fakes and exagerrates his weakness." Palpatine only attacks when Mace says he intends to take him in for arrest....then Palpatine is affected in a way using lightning that is weaker than the lightning he uses thereafter....and he is 'weakened'....after which he is shown smirking lightly and watching Anakin...then grinning broadly when Mace is disarmed before-odd for someone 'too weak' to fight...makes with the unlimited poweeeeeeer and kills MAce-who looks cosmetically fine, despite getting it worse than Palpatine did, charred to the bone- then gets up with no hint of even breathing heavy.

If Anakin hadn't come in, worst case scenario is: Mace takes Palpatine in with just his sword he's a sith. The Republic reacts violently for the arrest of its beloved leader.

And for that fight to have been entirely real? The coincidence is FAR too great.

And imagine Vader to those guys...same Vader who is able to go ahead on with eight masters? same Vader who kills the Dark woman? Same Vader who destroyed a small legion of Jedi singlehandedly on Hapes?

And could it ever be because-I keep posting this- Luke wss drawing power from the force completely and had everything to fight for? To quote: He drew it from the stars, from the trees and the forests across the galaxy, from oceans and even from the twisted metal of the emperor's throne room.

And the same Luke suggests everything'll be needed to stop Hethrir. Why do we KEEP IGNROING Exar was NOT a normal force ghost-he could affect the physical world, had drained the life energy of a race, had the power of the temple to focus on- and double teaming a surprised Luke?

I'll be on when I can in the next few days, I'll be gone a bit

If Anakin hadn't come in, Sidious would've pulled out the Force and bye bye, Mace.

Speculation, non sequitur. Logical fallacy.

I want definite proof Sidious didn't fake the lightning, because Lucas said "We always had in mind Mace overpowering Palpatine'

Asking the opposition to prove a negative. Logical fallacy.

(Oh, overpowering...never mind Sidious had a spare and the the fight hadn't ended anymore than it had when Maul had Obi-wan over a melting pit)

Disputing the authority? Nevermind logical fallacy, your fanboyism here shines through perfectly.

If Anakin hadn't come in, worst case scenario is: Mace takes Palpatine in with just his sword he's a sith. The Republic reacts violently for the arrest of its beloved leader.

Speculation. Non sequitur.

nd for that fight to have been entirely real? The coincidence is FAR too great.

Speculation, hasty generalization, non sequitor. No proof. You must substantiate with proof.

Why do we KEEP IGNROING Exar was NOT a normal force ghost-he could affect the physical world, had drained the life energy of a race, had the power of the temple to focus on-

Faulty use of authority, non sequitur. Corran Horn is not the final authority on force ghosts. Ergo, you must prove that Exar was substantially different or drop the point. As well, you must prove that Exar himself absorbed the massassi's energy. From the scans, we only see that the ritual absorbed the energy.

Originally posted by IKC
Speculation, non sequitur. Logical fallacy.

Asking the opposition to prove a negative. Logical fallacy.

Disputing the authority? Nevermind logical fallacy, your fanboyism here shines through perfectly.

Speculation. Non sequitur.

Speculation, hasty generalization, non sequitor. No proof. You must substantiate with proof.

Faulty use of authority, non sequitur. Corran Horn is not the final authority on force ghosts. Ergo, you must prove that Exar was substantially different or drop the point. As well, you must prove that Exar himself absorbed the massassi's energy. From the scans, we only see that the ritual absorbed the energy.

1. Great, ignoring how vulnerable Mace left himself...

2. Great, ignoring things from Lucas...

3. Because 'overpowered' means 'defeated completely and utterly'...who won that fight with Maul now?

4. Speculation with evidence backing it up. C'mon, you think Mace, member of the JEdi, now distrusted and feared could get away with taking Palp in with no proof?

5. And in everything else, he's described as having drained the massassi. Chronology? Character guide? And funny how you ignore how the students all discover things on Exar periodically
They may not be the final authority, but they've got more of it than you

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Great, ignoring how vulnerable Mace left himself...

In his lightsaber form? Vapaad is designed that way to try and get an enemy to make a hasty attack that the user can take advantage of. That was one of the reasons it was so dangerous. Mace knew what he was doing the entire time.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
2. Great, ignoring things from Lucas...

Lucas never hints that Sidious faked being overpowered.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
3. Because 'overpowered' means 'defeated completely and utterly'...who won that fight with Maul now?

Why do you keep going back to that fight. It only shows Sidious' weakness. Do you think that Obi-wan was faking the fight and allowed himself to be pushed into the pit? No. That was pure luck. The same happened with Sidious.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
4. Speculation with evidence backing it up. C'mon, you think Mace, member of the JEdi, now distrusted and feared could get away with taking Palp in with no proof?

The Jedi were prepared to take control of the Senate. The Jedi were more respected then Palpatine even at this point. It took the Empire decades to get the people to think lowly of the Jedi. Even still, the Jedi were respected after Palpatine died. In the Thrawn books an outlaw Barabel asks Luke for mediation in a dispute because he is a Jedi even though the Barabel did not know who Luke was, other then that he was a Jedi. Even when Luke decided against the Barabel in something the Barabel felt very strongly for(he was willing to kill over it), he backed down without question. The Barabel trusted in the judgement of some random Jedi even after 25 years of Imperial propaganda. The Senate would have stepped down for the Jedi as we know that some of the most powerful planets in the Republic(Kashyyyk) was willing to fight a major battle against the Empire that resulted in tens of thousands of Wookie deaths and the enslavement of over 200,000 Wookies. All of that for six outlaw Jedi. Imagine what they would have done for Yoda or Obi-wan.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
5. And in everything else, he's described as having drained the massassi. Chronology? Character guide? And funny how you ignore how the students all discover things on Exar periodically
They may not be the final authority, but they've got more of it than you

Even Luke didn't know what exactly happened with Exar as a spirit. None of the students saw what happened, but we did in the comics. Nor had a books with an all-knowing narrator to listen to. We do.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Lucas said nothing on the force lightning...in fact, he said Palpatine was faking weakness there. And according to Lucas? Constant use of the dark side deformed Palpatine. And in the EU? Yeah, it supports the idea that Palpatine altered himself completely. Noone ever seems to have any idea why it didn't deform Mace or Luke....why it didn't rot their teeth, change their voice and turn their eyes Sith yellow.

He is just faking to have no power to keep the attack up which was senseless because he couldn't pass Mace's defense with it as we all have seen in the movie. And it's even told in the commentary that the "redirected lightning is deforming his body". So ups.
And he altered himself completely ? You want to tell me that his Palpatine face was a mask ? Then why didn't he use that "mask" again after his little confrontation with Windu ?

If Anakin hadn't come in, Sidious would've pulled out the Force and bye bye, Mace. I want definite proof Sidious didn't fake the lightning, because Lucas said "We always had in mind Mace overpowering Palpatine' (Oh, overpowering...never mind Sidious had a spare and the the fight hadn't ended anymore than it had when Maul had Obi-wan over a melting pit) 'Then Anakin comes in and Palpatine fakes and exagerrates his weakness."

Yeah. He fakes to have no power any longer. I love how you simply "missed" the "You have lost, my lord." from Windu and then Sidious goes "Oh no...YOU have lost." and uses lightning on him which Mace deflects. So...Sidious was using weaker lightning when trying to overpower Windu ? Ahahaha. More fanboy lies to feed us, Lightsnake ? Sidious was faking weakness because he realized that he couldn't break to Mace's defence with his force lightning. And that's it.

If Anakin hadn't come in, worst case scenario is: Mace takes Palpatine in with just his sword he's a sith. The Republic reacts violently for the arrest of its beloved leader.

You did realize how Mace was about to kill Sidious before Anakin cut his arm off, right ?

And imagine Vader to those guys...same Vader who is able to go ahead on with eight masters? same Vader who kills the Dark woman? Same Vader who destroyed a small legion of Jedi singlehandedly on Hapes?

With eight masters ? Uhu...where ? Same Vader who kills the Dark Woman ? Wow...he can kill one person in a lightsaber fight. Impressive. A small legion of Jedi on Hapes ? Eh ?

And could it ever be because-I keep posting this- Luke wss drawing power from the force completely and had everything to fight for? To quote: He drew it from the stars, from the trees and the forests across the galaxy, from oceans and even from the twisted metal of the emperor's throne room.

And Luke wouldn't get weaker over time...period...

And the same Luke suggests everything'll be needed to stop Hethrir.

I love how you ignore the fact that Hethrir had an entire army of Dark Siders under his belt including people like Desann and Tavion. And when did Luke state that ? Before or after Hethrir was simply eaten by Waru and after 20 minutes near the Chrystal star wasn't able to ignite his lightsaber any longer because his power was drained where Luke had spent weeks there and still kept his illusionary face up ?

Why do we KEEP IGNROING Exar was NOT a normal force ghost-he could affect the physical world, had drained the life energy of a race, had the power of the temple to focus on- and double teaming a surprised Luke?

Why do you keep ignoring that Exar was half-mad, that he had to train hard to communicate with other persons, that "draining the life force of an entire race" is already greater than everything Sidious ever did and that he neither did "double team" nor "surprised" Luke. Luke was ready for a fight, lightsaber in hand and then it was Kyp controlled by Kun or Kun assisted a little bit by Kyp who tore Luke's spirit from his body. Notice that Kun still was a 4000 year old and half-mad spirit.

1. Great, ignoring how vulnerable Mace left himself...

Mace and vulnerable ? Eh ? Where exactly ?

2. Great, ignoring things from Lucas...

You are the only person doing something like this here, trying to save your beloved Sidious. Mace overpowered him and that's the end...

3. Because 'overpowered' means 'defeated completely and utterly'...who won that fight with Maul now?

What do you want to argue here. Did Sidious had a oportunity for a comeback ? He couldn't get past Mace's defences with his force abilities, he didn't have a lightsaber since his was lying somewhere in the streets of Coruscant and he couldn't escape from his position. Sidious was BEATEN without chance for a comeback.

4. Speculation with evidence backing it up. C'mon, you think Mace, member of the JEdi, now distrusted and feared could get away with taking Palp in with no proof?

Again making up stuff ? The Jedi weren't "distrusted" before Sidious walked into the Senate and told the Jedi had tried to assasinate him without any reason. If Mace had killed Sidious nobody would questioned his motives, even less since their would have been Anakin - the hero of the Clone Wars - to tell everybody that Sidious was a Sith Lord.

5. And in everything else, he's described as having drained the massassi. Chronology? Character guide? And funny how you ignore how the students all discover things on Exar periodically
They may not be the final authority, but they've got more of it than you

It's funny how the ritual did cost energy and it wasn't directly transferred into Kun. Otherwise he would have been able to take on the Jedi that were above his planet at that point. Instead they pretty much bound him to that planet with their "wall of light attack" and he dwelled their for 4000 years. Notice how he didn't interact with the Rebels when they used Yavin 4 as base in ANH and how he has been weak - even too weak to speak to other persons as he said himself. So I wonder how he's uber powerful or more powerful than he was alive. And the sources don't say he drained the Massassi - it says the ritual drained the Massassi. Little difference there.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
The Jedi were prepared to take control of the Senate. The Jedi were more respected then Palpatine even at this point. It took the Empire decades to get the people to think lowly of the Jedi. Even still, the Jedi were respected after Palpatine died. In the Thrawn books an outlaw Barabel asks Luke for mediation in a dispute because he is a Jedi even though the Barabel did not know who Luke was, other then that he was a Jedi. Even when Luke decided against the Barabel in something the Barabel felt very strongly for(he was willing to kill over it), he backed down without question. The Barabel trusted in the judgement of some random Jedi even after 25 years of Imperial propaganda. The Senate would have stepped down for the Jedi as we know that some of the most powerful planets in the Republic(Kashyyyk) was willing to fight a major battle against the Empire that resulted in tens of thousands of Wookie deaths and the enslavement of over 200,000 Wookies. All of that for six outlaw Jedi. Imagine what they would have done for Yoda or Obi-wan.

I'm on your side in the debate, but not on this point.

The Jedi were far from being the Galaxy's most popular, which is why Order 66 was so easily accomplished. There were very few in the initial Rebellion; had there been more, the ransition from Republic to Empire wouldn't have been smooth at all. Aside from the Second Battle of Kashyyyk, most systems -- as a whole, not counting the individual protests of some -- fell into line fairly quickly.

And the Barabel? Barabels, Wookies, Mon Calamari, etc. had a natural trust in Jedi. Well, not natural, but after facing the special discrimination and enslavement from the Empire, they would have sure looked back on the days of the Old Republic and remembered the peace-keepers.

As for the Senate, it sure as hell would not have stepped down for friggin' Mace Windu. Palpatine had it in his grip, and that is how he gained so much power, so quickly, and was able to take it. Other than those involved in the Delegation of 2,000, you don't see any others startled or scared by this.

Kashyyyk was far from one of the most powerful planets in the galaxy. The Wookies tended to be less involved in galactic affairs, which is why they took until practically the end of the conflict to become involved in the Clone Wars. Technologically, it lacked a planetary shield and exceptional, noticable planet-space artillery.

Also, note that the Wookies weren't fightning just for the Jedi; they were fighting for their home and their liberty. They'd figured out that they were to become slaves, so they took out as many Imperials as they could before that inevitable fate. Olee Starstone even says that the Empire only used the Jedi presence there to justify their invasion of Kashyyyk. And guess what? The galaxy, as a whole, let it go.

Admittedly, there were many species and individuals that supported the Jedi. But these species, and individuals, could not turn the public to support the old guardians. Hence, the war.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
The Jedi were far from being the Galaxy's most popular, which is why Order 66 was so easily accomplished. There were very few in the initial Rebellion; had there been more, the ransition from Republic to Empire wouldn't have been smooth at all. Aside from the Second Battle of Kashyyyk, most systems -- as a whole, not counting the individual protests of some -- fell into line fairly quickly.

They weren't popular. That's right. But they also weren't known as notorious liars or power hungry people that would kill the Chancelor of the Republic for no reason. At least they were war heroes that defended the Republic.
And what does "assasination through mindless clone troopers" have to do with the popularity of the Jedi ? They were killed on the battle field by their own troops or destroyed in their own temple by Clone Troopers and Anakin.

And the Barabel? Barabels, Wookies, Mon Calamari, etc. had a natural trust in Jedi. Well, not natural, but after facing the special discrimination and enslavement from the Empire, they would have sure looked back on the days of the Old Republic and remembered the peace-keepers.

Glentracts point was that they thrusted the decission of a random Jedi even after the Empire had bombarded them with "anti Jedi propaganda" for 2 decades.

As for the Senate, it sure as hell would not have stepped down for friggin' Mace Windu. Palpatine had it in his grip, and that is how he gained so much power, so quickly, and was able to take it. Other than those involved in the Delegation of 2,000, you don't see any others startled or scared by this.

No ? This is just speculation. What would have happened if Windu had pushed Sidious into the Senate with proof that Sidious had killed 3 Jedi Masters before and orchestrated the entire war ? This with the war hero that Sidious had built up via his media for years as a witness. Do you think he could have kept his control over the Senate ? Or even better: What would have happend if Mace had killed Sidious...

Originally posted by Borbarad
He is just faking to have no power to keep the attack up which was senseless because he couldn't pass Mace's defense with it as we all have [b]seen in the movie. And it's even told in the commentary that the "redirected lightning is deforming his body". So ups.
And he altered himself completely ? You want to tell me that his Palpatine face was a mask ? Then why didn't he use that "mask" again after his little confrontation with Windu ?

Yeah. He fakes to have no power any longer. I love how you simply "missed" the "You have lost, my lord." from Windu and then Sidious goes "Oh no...YOU have lost." and uses lightning on him which Mace deflects. So...Sidious was using weaker lightning when trying to overpower Windu ? Ahahaha. More fanboy lies to feed us, Lightsnake ? Sidious was faking weakness because he realized that he couldn't break to Mace's defence with his force lightning. And that's it.

You did realize how Mace was about to kill Sidious before Anakin cut his arm off, right ?

With eight masters ? Uhu...where ? Same Vader who kills the Dark Woman ? Wow...he can kill one person in a lightsaber fight. Impressive. A small legion of Jedi on Hapes ? Eh ?

And Luke wouldn't get weaker over time...period...

I love how you ignore the fact that Hethrir had an entire army of Dark Siders under his belt including people like Desann and Tavion. And when did Luke state that ? Before or after Hethrir was simply eaten by Waru and after 20 minutes near the Chrystal star wasn't able to ignite his lightsaber any longer because his power was drained where Luke had spent weeks there and still kept his illusionary face up ?

Why do you keep ignoring that Exar was half-mad, that he had to train hard to communicate with other persons, that "draining the life force of an entire race" is already greater than everything Sidious ever did and that he neither did "double team" nor "surprised" Luke. Luke was ready for a fight, lightsaber in hand and then it was Kyp controlled by Kun or Kun assisted a little bit by Kyp who tore Luke's spirit from his body. Notice that Kun still was a 4000 year old and half-mad spirit.

Mace and vulnerable ? Eh ? Where exactly ?

You are the only person doing something like this here, trying to save your beloved Sidious. Mace overpowered him and that's the end...

What do you want to argue here. Did Sidious had a oportunity for a comeback ? He couldn't get past Mace's defences with his force abilities, he didn't have a lightsaber since his was lying somewhere in the streets of Coruscant and he couldn't escape from his position. Sidious was BEATEN without chance for a comeback.

Again making up stuff ? The Jedi weren't "distrusted" before Sidious walked into the Senate and told the Jedi had tried to assasinate him without any reason. If Mace had killed Sidious nobody would questioned his motives, even less since their would have been Anakin - the hero of the Clone Wars - to tell everybody that Sidious was a Sith Lord.

It's funny how the ritual did cost energy and it wasn't directly transferred into Kun. Otherwise he would have been able to take on the Jedi that were above his planet at that point. Instead they pretty much bound him to that planet with their "wall of light attack" and he dwelled their for 4000 years. Notice how he didn't interact with the Rebels when they used Yavin 4 as base in ANH and how he has been weak - even too weak to speak to other persons as he said himself. So I wonder how he's uber powerful or more powerful than he was alive. And the sources don't say he drained the Massassi - it says the ritual drained the Massassi. Little difference there. [/B]

1. That's a lie. It's said the exertion of dark side use turns him into the empire we know later on. And why didn't we use that mask? Oh, y'know, maybe it helped a little when he said "I have been scarred and deformed"

2. Right, because a quote never said from Mace Windu means a THING when Mace would never realize he was being manipulated. Mace says "You are under arrest." and Sidious didn't mean to kill Mace with the first barrage, HE MEANT TO ACT WEAKENED AND DRAW ANAKIN TO THE DARK SIDE. Lucas even SAID he was faking his weakness and tricking Anakin. I'm tired of your hater lies:. The supposedly weak Palpatine stands up with NO exertion and blows Mace into oblivion screaming "Power." That alone should be enough to indicate he was faking, coupled with his looking to Anakin with a smirk on his face when they were arguing to kill him.

3. According to Lucas, that was a ploy to draw Anakin over, he was faking and exaggerating his weakness. Hell, his shatterpoint was 'He trusted Anakin completely.'

4. Ahhh, let's ignore how powerful the dark Woman actually was....and eight Jedi in 'Purge'. The score of knights on hapes is only mentioned, but Ta'a Chume's grandmother betrayed their location to Palpatine who sent Vader.

5. Oh, after Mace's idiotic spin attack.

6. And you only despise Sidious and you're unwilling to even think of anything that could elevate him. Look, I can use your logic. Nevermind how Lucas said PAlpatine was faking weakness and exagerrating for Anakin's benefit...

7. Which is why he only used ONE force attack with dubious intention and not the massave force push he used moments later when that could have finished Mace much easier?

8. In republic, the Senators despise the Jedi and Bail ORgana, a lot of them even think the war's a Jedi plot. And Sidious had a spare saber, nice how you ignore that.

9. Mace, the hero as opposed to Palpatine, the beloved leader who kept the republic from falling apart and was loved universally

10. Character Guide: "He absorbed energy from the Massassi." He didn't interact with Palpatine when Palpatine arrived at Yavin,...he didn't wake up until seven years after ROTJ. And he was weak there because he'd been driven off by Luke

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
In his lightsaber form? Vapaad is designed that way to try and get an enemy to make a hasty attack that the user can take advantage of. That was one of the reasons it was so dangerous. Mace knew what he was doing the entire time.

Lucas never hints that Sidious faked being overpowered.

Why do you keep going back to that fight. It only shows Sidious' weakness. Do you think that Obi-wan was faking the fight and allowed himself to be pushed into the pit? No. That was pure luck. The same happened with Sidious.

The Jedi were prepared to take control of the Senate. The Jedi were more respected then Palpatine even at this point. It took the Empire decades to get the people to think lowly of the Jedi. Even still, the Jedi were respected after Palpatine died. In the Thrawn books an outlaw Barabel asks Luke for mediation in a dispute because he is a Jedi even though the Barabel did not know who Luke was, other then that he was a Jedi. Even when Luke decided against the Barabel in something the Barabel felt very strongly for(he was willing to kill over it), he backed down without question. The Barabel trusted in the judgement of some random Jedi even after 25 years of Imperial propaganda. The Senate would have stepped down for the Jedi as we know that some of the most powerful planets in the Republic(Kashyyyk) was willing to fight a major battle against the Empire that resulted in tens of thousands of Wookie deaths and the enslavement of over 200,000 Wookies. All of that for six outlaw Jedi. Imagine what they would have done for Yoda or Obi-wan.

Even Luke didn't know what exactly happened with Exar as a spirit. None of the students saw what happened, but we did in the comics. Nor had a books with an all-knowing narrator to listen to. We do.

1. Exactly why he looks shocked when Sidious's saber hovers over his chest.

2. "He exaggerates his weakness." And according to sW there's no such thing as luck or coincidence.

3. And being 'overpowered' isn't really the end all be all to a fight.

4. Oh, come on...the JEdi were distrusted heavily while Palpatine was the beloved leader. Some senators even accused the Jedi of plotting the war. Palpatine had kept the entire Republic together and was reknowned for his leadership and kindness....he tricked everyone into surrendering their power and wanting to do it! The Jedi had ZERO proof of anything against him.

5. And the omniscient narrarators proving Palp's credentials are ignored...

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. That's a lie. It's said the exertion of dark side use turns him into the empire we know later on. And why didn't we use that mask? Oh, y'know, maybe it helped a little when he said "I have been scarred and deformed"

The commentary tells that it the lightning deflected back by Mace Windu that destroys his face. The novelization tells us (Page 336):
"And so the mask becomes the man," he sighed with a hint of philosophical melancholy. "I shall miss the face of Palpatine, I think; but for our purpose, the face of Sidious will serve. Yes, it will serve."

Obviously he tells us that he would have restored his "normal" face if he could have done it but - he can't. And how would "exertion of dark side use" destroy his face if he just used "a weaker form of his lightning" on Windu at that point. Nice selfownage there.

2. Right, because a quote never said from Mace Windu means a THING when Mace would never realize he was being manipulated. Mace says "You are under arrest." and Sidious didn't mean to kill Mace with the first barrage, HE MEANT TO ACT WEAKENED AND DRAW ANAKIN TO THE DARK SIDE.

Nice how you are unable to watch a movie and listen to the things said. Right before Sidious uses lightning:
Mace: "You have lost."
Sidious: "No. No. No. You will die."
And then he starts using lightning on Windu. So Sidious didn't mean to kill Windu despite telling him just that right before using lightning and he was using "less powerful lightning" which was just too much power so that it melted Sidious own face. Yeah, right, fanboy.

Lucas even SAID he was faking his weakness and tricking Anakin. I'm tired of your hater lies:. The supposedly weak Palpatine stands up with NO exertion and blows Mace into oblivion screaming "Power." That alone should be enough to indicate he was faking, coupled with his looking to Anakin with a smirk on his face when they were arguing to kill him.

No. Lucas states that Sidious fakes to have no power left to keep his lightning up. Period. The only person lying here is you Lightsnake. Sidious is still on the ground when he blasts Mace out of the Windu after Anakin took away Mace's defence and then he's breathing hard when he stands up again. I won't argue that he faked something: He faked to have no power for another force attack any longer and that's it

3. According to Lucas, that was a ploy to draw Anakin over, he was faking and exaggerating his weakness. Hell, his shatterpoint was 'He trusted Anakin completely.'

Again making things up ? Lucas tells us that Mace overpowers Sidious. The entire situation was not planned by Sidious since he tried to kill Mace in the lightsaber fight and he did try to kill him again with lightning. And when both things didn't work and he was - on the ground helpless without a chance to escape - he used Anakin as "last chance". He didn't have a reason to pull Anakin to the Dark Side with so many faked actions since Anakin thought he would need Sidious to save Padme - and that's the reason to save Sidious finally...he even tells that "I need him."

4. Ahhh, let's ignore how powerful the dark Woman actually was....and eight Jedi in 'Purge'. The score of knights on hapes is only mentioned, but Ta'a Chume's grandmother betrayed their location to Palpatine who sent Vader.

Yeah. The powerful Dark Women. Best feat: Trained Ki-Adi-Mundi who was tooled by 5 Clone Troopers. And 8 Jedi during the purge ? You mean putting the lightsaber to once head and igniting it (no defence) stabbing one from behind (again no defence) and then - with a legion of Clone Troopers firing at anything - killing Younglings, 2 Padawans and Cin Drallig. Impressive. The knights on Hapes ? I'm sure Vader just did go there alone...

5. Oh, after Mace's idiotic spin attack.

Mercy. Where Sidious puts his lightsaber nearly on Windu's chest and still fails to stab him ?

6. And you only despise Sidious and you're unwilling to even think of anything that could elevate him. Look, I can use your logic. Nevermind how Lucas said PAlpatine was faking weakness and exagerrating for Anakin's benefit...

He was faking to not have any power for another force attack because the one he tried to use failed against Windu's defence. What should he have done, huh ?

7. Which is why he only used ONE force attack with dubious intention and not the massave force push he used moments later when that could have finished Mace much easier?

Would you please think once about the facts that:
a) He clearly revealed his intetion saying "You will die." before using his attack.
b) That this attack was powerful enough to melt his face away either because being redirected by Windu's lightsaber or he was using so much dark side energies.
c) Mace didn't have his lightsaber any longer and had his hand cut off just before Sidious used the second attack on him. So you totally miss the fact that Windu was weakened compared to the situation moments earlier where he deflected Sidious lightning.

8. In republic, the Senators despise the Jedi and Bail ORgana, a lot of them even think the war's a Jedi plot. And Sidious had a spare saber, nice how you ignore that.

It's nice how you ignore that there were at least 2,000 senators who wanted to resolve the war by diplomatic means and Sidious hindered it. It's nice how you make it up that many people thought the war was a plot of the Jedi (yeah right...they would love to get their order destroyed and therefore orchester a war that does that). And Sidious had a spare saber ? Where did he have it in his fight versus Windu. Hidden somewhere ? Would that have given him anything considering the fact that he was on the ground, couldn't get up, had his hands placed before his face and had a superior lightsaber duellists placing his own saber just in front of his face ?

9. Mace, the hero as opposed to Palpatine, the beloved leader who kept the republic from falling apart and was loved universally

Yeah...he was so universally loved that he had 2,000 star systems opposing against his politic not to mention that thousands of star systems joined the CIS every day. Much love there is for him.

10. Character Guide: "He absorbed energy from the Massassi." He didn't interact with Palpatine when Palpatine arrived at Yavin,...he didn't wake up until seven years after ROTJ. And he was weak there because he'd been driven off by Luke

Does it say he "absorbed all the energy from all Massasi" ? No ? Fine.
He didn't interact with Palpatine when Palpatine arrived at Yavin ? Is there any source saying that Palpatine once visited Yavin ? Then why Kun didn't talk to him ?
Where had he'd been "driven off by Luke" ? You're trying to tell us that Kun was charged up with the power of the Massasi up to a point where he was stronger than he was when he was alive and then you tell us that Luke - for some mysterious reason - could weaken Kun by just refusing to serve him when Kun visits him in his dreams ?
And you keep ignoring the point that Kun didn't reproduce the feats of the living Kun and said himself that he was weakend so much that he couldn't even talk and how it took him millenia of training to do just that.

Originally posted by Borbarad
The commentary tells that it the lightning deflected back by Mace Windu that destroys his face. The novelization tells us (Page 336):
"And so the mask becomes the man," he sighed with a hint of philosophical melancholy. "I shall miss the face of Palpatine, I think; but for our purpose, the face of Sidious will serve. Yes, it will serve."

Obviously he tells us that he would have restored his "normal" face if he could have done it but - he can't. And how would "exertion of dark side use" destroy his face if he just used "a weaker form of his lightning" on Windu at that point. Nice selfownage there.

Nice how you are unable to watch a movie and listen to the things said. Right before Sidious uses lightning:
Mace: "You have lost."
Sidious: "No. No. No. You will die."
And then he starts using lightning on Windu. So Sidious didn't mean to kill Windu [b]despite telling him just that right before using lightning and he was using "less powerful lightning" which was just too much power so that it melted Sidious own face. Yeah, right, fanboy.

No. Lucas states that Sidious fakes to have no power left to keep his lightning up. Period. The only person lying here is you Lightsnake. Sidious is still on the ground when he blasts Mace out of the Windu after Anakin took away Mace's defence and then he's breathing hard when he stands up again. I won't argue that he faked something: He faked to have no power for another force attack any longer and that's it

Again making things up ? Lucas tells us that Mace overpowers Sidious. The entire situation was not planned by Sidious since he tried to kill Mace in the lightsaber fight and he did try to kill him again with lightning. And when both things didn't work and he was - on the ground helpless without a chance to escape - he used Anakin as "last chance". He didn't have a reason to pull Anakin to the Dark Side with so many faked actions since Anakin thought he would need Sidious to save Padme - and that's the reason to save Sidious finally...he even tells that "I need him."

Yeah. The powerful Dark Women. Best feat: Trained Ki-Adi-Mundi who was tooled by 5 Clone Troopers. And 8 Jedi during the purge ? You mean putting the lightsaber to once head and igniting it (no defence) stabbing one from behind (again no defence) and then - with a legion of Clone Troopers firing at anything - killing Younglings, 2 Padawans and Cin Drallig. Impressive. The knights on Hapes ? I'm sure Vader just did go there alone...

Mercy. Where Sidious puts his lightsaber nearly on Windu's chest and still fails to stab him ?

He was faking to not have any power for another force attack because the one he tried to use failed against Windu's defence. What should he have done, huh ?

Would you please think once about the facts that:
a) He clearly revealed his intetion saying "You will die." before using his attack.
b) That this attack was powerful enough to melt his face away either because being redirected by Windu's lightsaber or he was using so much dark side energies.
c) Mace didn't have his lightsaber any longer and had his hand cut off just before Sidious used the second attack on him. So you totally miss the fact that Windu was weakened compared to the situation moments earlier where he deflected Sidious lightning.

It's nice how you ignore that there were at least 2,000 senators who wanted to resolve the war by diplomatic means and Sidious hindered it. It's nice how you make it up that many people thought the war was a plot of the Jedi (yeah right...they would love to get their order destroyed and therefore orchester a war that does that). And Sidious had a spare saber ? Where did he have it in his fight versus Windu. Hidden somewhere ? Would that have given him anything considering the fact that he was on the ground, couldn't get up, had his hands placed before his face and had a superior lightsaber duellists placing his own saber just in front of his face ?

Yeah...he was so universally loved that he had 2,000 star systems opposing against his politic not to mention that thousands of star systems joined the CIS every day. Much love there is for him.

Does it say he "absorbed all the energy from all Massasi" ? No ? Fine.
He didn't interact with Palpatine when Palpatine arrived at Yavin ? Is there any source saying that Palpatine once visited Yavin ? Then why Kun didn't talk to him ?
Where had he'd been "driven off by Luke" ? You're trying to tell us that Kun was charged up with the power of the Massasi up to a point where he was stronger than he was when he was alive and then you tell us that Luke - for some mysterious reason - could weaken Kun by just refusing to serve him when Kun visits him in his dreams ?
And you keep ignoring the point that Kun didn't reproduce the feats of the living Kun and said himself that he was weakend so much that he couldn't even talk and how it took him millenia of training to do just that. [/B]

1. Thanks for the novelization. Now I can use the EU explanation that the Dark Side over the years deformed him and that he changes his face at will. And nice how you ignore that that exertion quote comes from Lucas and he was using his deformity to sway the Senate.

2. Because if Sidious says something, IT MUST BE TRUE! He obviously meant to give up his power at the end of the war! Yeah, he couldn't trick Mace and Anakin despite how Lucas said he was doing just the latter...

3. I want the quote where he says the lightning deformed him, because Lucas said he was faking from the moment Anakin enters the room.

4. No such thing as coincidence. Proof it wasn't planned and Sidious didn't want to be overpowered for Anakin's benefit. Sidious knew Anakin needed him, he'd been building that for thirteen years. He was trusting Anakin from the second anakin entered the room.

5. You mean 'shot from behind by men he trusted.' And the Dark Woman was described as one of the best. Eight masters, noone was stabbed from behind or 'lightsaber put to the head.' Numerous Jedi in the Jedi, including Cin, and he faced the Hapes Knights alone.

6. Riiiiight, because Sidious can't lie...let's ignore how in the EU he alters his face, let's ignore how there were dozens of other things but the lightning including the force push he later uses AND he had a spare saber, let's ignore how he wanted to trick Anakin AND the senate...leet's ignore all that because we hate Sidious. Maybe he wasn't using that spare saber because of wanting to get Anakin to the dark side? Valid reason right there

7. Gee, he only MANIPULATED all that...the vast majority of the Republic loved him, period.

8. Yes, it says Kun absorbed the energy from the Massassi. And he was only weakened after being driven off by Luke and had to get to Gantoris to get power back. And as for this stupid 'couldn't do what he did when he was alive'...we never saw him melt stone when he was alive. It's like trying to score a touchdown in baseball, it's a completely different scenario. As for Palpatine going to Yavin and taking what Kun got? Complete Locations. And Palpatine either didn't awaken Kun or he simply ignored him. Mara said it herself: Palp'd consider Kun the definition of failure

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Thanks for the novelization. Now I can use the EU explanation that the Dark Side over the years deformed him and that he changes his face at will. And nice how you ignore that that exertion quote comes from Lucas and he was using his deformity to sway the Senate.

Are you just an idiot ? Just a simple question. He basically tells use that he would restore the face if he could, yet, he can't. He can't change ihs face at will and he later simply made the best out of the situation "as he always does".

2. Because if Sidious says something, IT MUST BE TRUE! He obviously meant to give up his power at the end of the war! Yeah, he couldn't trick Mace and Anakin despite how Lucas said he was doing just the latter...

3. I want the quote where he says the lightning deformed him, because Lucas said he was faking from the moment Anakin enters the room.

Now you have gone too far, fanboy. Here is the original text of Lucas in the commentary and everbody having a ROTS DVD can go and check it and see what a dumbass liar you are.

Lucas:
"This sequence always started with Mace overpowering Palpatine and then Palpatine uses his powers and tries to destroy Mace and Mace reflecting his rays back with his lightsaber. And it was always that Anakin cut the lightsaber from his hand.
But the part in which he pretends that he loses power and being weak was something that I added later. Because it moves the point in which Anakin turns to the moment right here...and it's clear that he (Anakin) wants him (Sidious) to go on trial so that he can pump him for information about how to get this powers..."

Lucas over. Than follows Knoll stating that "the exertion and the lightning reflected back at him" is what turns him into the Emperor we later see.

So where is Lucas telling Sidious faked anything from the point Anakin enters the office ? Where does Lucas say that Sidious tricked Anakin and Mace. You are a fanboy and nothing more than a poor liar and now better get back into your hole and shut the door behind you.

4. No such thing as coincidence. Proof it wasn't planned and Sidious didn't want to be overpowered for Anakin's benefit. Sidious knew Anakin needed him, he'd been building that for thirteen years. He was trusting Anakin from the second anakin entered the room.

See quote from Lucas above. Liars can't save Sidious. Period.

5. You mean 'shot from behind by men he trusted.' And the Dark Woman was described as one of the best. Eight masters, noone was stabbed from behind or 'lightsaber put to the head.' Numerous Jedi in the Jedi, including Cin, and he faced the Hapes Knights alone.

Yeah because you have presented lies and lies again we will surely thrust you. The Dark Women descriped as one of the best ? Where ? Source and page number please. Vader killing eight Jedi Masters during the purge ? Source please. Vader facing the Knights on Hapes alone ? Source please.

6. Riiiiight, because Sidious can't lie...let's ignore how in the EU he alters his face, let's ignore how there were dozens of other things but the lightning including the force push he later uses AND he had a spare saber, let's ignore how he wanted to trick Anakin AND the senate...leet's ignore all that because we hate Sidious. Maybe he wasn't using that spare saber because of wanting to get Anakin to the dark side? Valid reason right there

Let's just keep on lying and lying and throw more lies into the forum just because we are a ridiculous Sidious fanboy who can't accept that he's getting pwned and pwned again. Let's just make more statements up. Let's just ignore Lucas statements. Let's just worship idiocy and lies just to get pwned over and over again in defence of our beloved character. Let's just ignore the point that nobody agrees with us because we have nothing but lies and twisted interpretation of invents to back our point up. Let's just be Lightsnake.

7. Gee, he only MANIPULATED all that...the vast majority of the Republic loved him, period.

Yeah. That's because the entire Jedi Order and 2,000 Senators looked at him as if he was a tyrant who kept his position longer than necessary. Let's just ignore that all that planets joined the CIS because realizing that the Senate was corrupt and listening to Sidious. Let's just ignore all that because Sidious manipulated it. It doesn't matter. Obviously many people had something against him and his politic, no ?

8. Yes, it says Kun absorbed the energy from the Massassi. And he was only weakened after being driven off by Luke and had to get to Gantoris to get power back. And as for this stupid 'couldn't do what he did when he was alive'...we never saw him melt stone when he was alive. It's like trying to score a touchdown in baseball, it's a completely different scenario. As for Palpatine going to Yavin and taking what Kun got? Complete Locations. And Palpatine either didn't awaken Kun or he simply ignored him. Mara said it herself: Palp'd consider Kun the definition of failure

Blah, blah, blah....blah, blah....blah. Discussion with notorious liars is beyond me. Go on and dig your own grave deeper and deeper...