Marka Ragnos and Exar Kun vs. DE Sidious and NJO Luke

[QUOTE=5829819]Originally posted by Illustrious
How much of "the most powerful of the most powerful" is conjecture? We know he was not just good, but purely dominant. We know no one dared to attack him on his death bed. We know that Ludo Kressh submitted to him as "the Dark Lord" after he came from the dead, we know the Naga Sadow, Ludo Kressh, Exar Kun, and Ulic Qel-Droma all stopped their fighting and submitted to his will. He is described repeatedly as a godlike and terrible foe. He "dominated" over other ancient Sith that could make the Jedi of Revan's time look like children with lightsabers. He ruled unquestioned and with an iron fist over a wealthy Empire for over a hundred years -- an empire where the strong rules. He put "the most powerful Sith Magician of his time"'s head in a jar and still decided to keep him around. His passing into the Dark Side was so powerful, Odan-Urr felt it all the way in REPUBLIC SPACE. From other EU sources, he has a scepter that can drain the force from entire PLANETS even in the hands of a relative weakling like Tavion. It can imbue non-force sensitives with force powers and lightsaber abilities. It can cut through buildings with ease.

Don't tell me that all we know is conjecture and assumptions. Use your brain a bit and you'd see that every single of his descriptions is one of absolute titanic power.

I love the logical fallacy of people around here. We have all the logic and evidence suggesting Ragnos was some uber lord over the Dark Side, yet somehow, someway, using some paragon of twisted logic, they assume the very worse out of him. What low showing are you going off of? His defeat to Jaden? His [b]5000 year old spirit's defeat to Jaden when he possessed a body that was already beaten? His defeat that didn't even kill him?

Funny, truly funny.

How is Luke equal? Because he fired "green lightning"? Because he was shown in the movies? Because he controlled a black hole (a feat duplicated by one of his OWN TIME)? Because he slashed through some Vong?

I'd personally bet on Ragnos do slash through those same Vong, particularly since he is renowned for "immense physical strength and a frightening grasp of the force." And I'd rather face Vong than 20 Sith Lords who were described as "godlike" entities with "titanic" power.

By that same notion, JA Luke, which is after DE Luke, said they would need the entirety of the Jedi Academy's forces to stop Ragnos if he were ressurected. By game mechanics of JK:A, if you beat Tavion the first time, you officially (canonical wording) "thwarted" her plans of ressurecting Ragnos.

Ergo? Ragnos never manifested, he simply had his spirit possess a weakling of a body and likely assumed all the limitations. And yet? The body suddenly had a huge force power augmentation and had a speed bonus you wouldn't believe.

And Kun? The guy who tore holes in temple walls just by blasting them? The guy who froze the entire Senate and casually waltzed his way in? The guy who tossed Sylvar with such ease that it was almost comical? The guy who broke through Vodo's staff that was "stronger than a lightsaber" according to the omniscient narrator? The guy who destroyed a 400 year old spirit that had the ability to instakill other force users? The guy who stockpiled so many secrets of the sith that he could never even use it all? The guy who was practically crowned by "the Dark Lord of the Sith" as the second coming of the Golden Age? The guy that single-handedly required the largest collection of Jedi in history to simultaneously converge on his base of operations?

Yeah, that guy. What logical evidence do you have for Sidious? Force storm? What about the blasts that Exar casted repeatedly that shredded an ancient Sith Alchemical Creature?

Can force storm be focused on a single opponent? Can he use it without taking out the battlefield? Can he do it while Kun brings his double-bladed lightsaber down on him? If he can't, it's not within the rules. And the draining of the planet is hardly so impressive when we see Tavion doing the same thing to a number of planets with the scepter. I personally think what Zonama Sekot and Nihilus did were far more impressive.

Except that he also walked into the Star Forge and beat down a Jedi renowned for his battle prowess WHILE he was boosted by the power of the Starforge.

How does this retort to his point?

Oh wait, it doesn't. It's irrelevant misdirection and logical fallacy. You're arguing with what's literally portrayed and is shown and direct inductive observations from the text.

A better question would be if Sidious had "discovered the darkest secrets" of the Sith, how come he didn't use the artifacts and other paraphenelia? He'd be stupid to not use stuff that boosted his power. Ergo, he either a) doesn't have them, b) is retarded, or c) the DE Sourcebook is outdated and has been shown redundant (e.g. mentioning the Sith Order as 2000 years old instead of the 5000+ that it really is like in later canon.)

The proof is in Obi-Wan. He's stated a fact. Spirits like Obi-Wan and Anakin get weaker over time and are no longer able to influence and visit the living.

Law of debates tells me you have to disprove this. If he was stronger in death than life, how come he didn't use blasts that he did in life? How come he didn't use the instakill attacks he's SHOWN to have? Logic dictates he isn't stronger. You arguing against first order logic shows you're a fanboy.

STFU.

Did you not read the first post? Artifacts are perfectly legal in this fight.

Tell me, place Kun's power EXACTLY with the artifacts and show observed evidence for this. Show me where it says something to the effect that "an amulet increases force power exponentially" or something like that. I'm confident you won't find something to that effect, why? BECAUSE I READ THE COMICS.

So stop griping about amulet this, artifact that. The listed parameters are already in the first post. You trying to change them is simply trying to load the die so Sidious and Luke wins.

Guess what?

Feat wars don't make someone win. By that logic, because Sidious never created superweapons with the force, he's not anywhere near as powerful as Naga Sadow. Or because he didn't rule UNQUESTIONED, and was never dethroned, over an Empire of Sith under their "golden age" he'll never touch Ragnos.

Same concept. Silly conclusions. [/B][/QUOTE]

1. Right, because Palpatine, exar, revan and Bane were clearly shown partying in the background of Ziost. Palpatine can also do exaxtly of what you just said as well and he did it without artifacts whose origins are shadowy at best. We know Palpatine's death reduced the Dark Side and he learned Ragnos's darkest secrets, among others. We know Sidious's fight with Luke was so powerful every force sensitive in the galaxy felt it. We've seen Palpatine do far more than Ragnos. He tears a FLEET to pieces with what is described as the greatest weapon of the Sith. And everyone neglects to mention how Ragnos's stagnation drove the Empire to what it was upon his death....and in an empire of such weaklings, no wonder he prevailed. With whiners like Kressh, delusional fools like Sadow and random people who get wiped out by Masassi...

2. His spirit was beaten by Jaden, with his so called uber sceptre. And yep, his spirit which had 5000 years to focus power on Korriban.

3. Ahhh, how we ignore what I post....we've seen Luke become a pure conduit to the Force, and show greater saber skills than anyone else. We've seen him slice through armies.

4. You'd rather face twenty Sith Lord swho get owned by Massassi? Really now...

5. Yes, explain how Kun never used that blast again-oooh, and his feat was duplicated by a pack of PADAWANS! Don't he feel special- He killed two Jedi who never did a damn thing of power...Give me a break, you're comparing killing a beast to destroying a fleet? The same type of beast killed by a small group of Padawans? Why didn't those godly Sith use that storm? Would've saved their asses

6. Sidious himself stated he could achieve what he did with his own power....HMMMMMMM, destroying fleets with 'A Sith Lord's greatest weapon' and sucking the life out of millions and using force lightning to overcome fifty or so people.

7. Ah, yes....because Jedi ghosts are the same as Sith spirits who use a different technique and have places to focus their power.

7. Y'know what makes Sidious automatically superior to Sadow? He used a force storm. That's it. If Sadow could, he have destroyed the Tetan fleet....and given that Sadow was with about fifteen or so other Sith lords at the time...may've helped instead of sacrificing his empire and he'd have killed Teta and been able to recover his empire....in fact, if KUN could do that, he'd never have needed to run and hide. You can whine and moan about 'feat wars', but that's only because Kun has never done a thing to match up to Sidious. Mara herself said that Sidious would've regarded Kun as a definition of failure...and Kun's only reaction was a spoiled baby shout of "But he's dead!" Upon it being pointed out so was he, Kun instantly shut his mouth.
Yknow, DE created Ulic Qel-Droma? And a helluva lotta stuff for later on? Face it: You can throw around ruling Sith Empires when those Sith were shown as NOTHING. They were beaten on THREE PLANETS. You have Kun, trapped by Padawans...and Sidious in DE, only defeated by using the full fury of the light side on him, only permanently defeated by the Jedi of eons holding his spirit to the Dark Side, you have him using the greatest weapon of the Dark side to tear down a fleet, you have him sucking the life of millions and learning the greatest secrets of the Sith, Jedi, among many others, you have Sidious who unlike Kun never used amulets to do what he did. Do you always have to fall back on artifacts to show Kun's strength? Anything he did on his own truly? When did any Sith Lord exhibit any power that destroyed a fleet with a storm that was created by ripping a hole in the faric of the galaxy? And to this day, a Force storm is possibly the strongest ability known...and name another Sith Lord who managed to curse an entire bloodline

To begin with, the evidence about Ragnos is, as much as you may not like it, shaky. First off, all those quotes you posted proves that he was the strongest of the ancient sith, but I never argued that, I do however argue the fact that these seems to make him unbeatable. I mean, the only real show of power we've seen from the ancient sith is from Sadow, whose two biggest feats, the star rip and the illusions, were done with extra equip, his ship and the meditation sphere in this case. Now, that being said, there is no evidence of Ragnos being able to reproduce these feats sans equip. Yeah, with them he could do it, and better most likely, but beyond that, we have nothing. The scepter is also dubious, as a full on blast only knocked down Katarn, and this assumes he goes into battle with the scepter charged.

Next, Luke's feats are very impressive. Cut threw some vong? Try some thousands, then beat elite slayers, then beat the supreme overlord. And has used force blasts powerful enough to throw stardestroyers around.

And as far as Kun's concerned I don't know why Ragnos was brought up. And Kun's blasting open of walls is one thing, Sidious taking down whole ships is another, and yes he can focus it. In fact, he was about to do it against Luke until Luke (augmented) made it backfire, though I'm sure Lightsnake could give you a more accurate description of events. And Kun froze the senate, which was a few thousand beings that were overwhelmingly non-force users. Plus, do you really think this helps him? It's not like he'll be able to freeze either Luke or Sids. Also, if you're going by what the narrator says about the staff, then you must agree that when the narrator says that Sidious is the greatest sith lord of all time, it's also true.

It was Luke, with Leia and Anakin Solo's unborn power....which, suffice to say was, and I quote:
And their symphony grew stronger, summoning light from the waters of Da Soocha, from the hearts of the brave Sailors facing their doom in the void of space beyond, from the courage of those leaders who had taken up the fight against tyranny, even in the face of the unstoppable armies of Palpatine the Undying, those nameless, faceless armies who would be content to trample their boots in the face of freedom – forever.

They drew light from the stars, from the rocks, from the twisted metal of the Emperor's throne room . . . and from the wells of courage deep within themselves. Their harmony swelled now to a crescendo of light –

1. Right, because Palpatine, exar, revan and Bane were clearly shown partying in the background of Ziost. Palpatine can also do exaxtly of what you just said as well and he did it without artifacts whose origins are shadowy at best. We know Palpatine's death reduced the Dark Side and he learned Ragnos's darkest secrets, among others. We know Sidious's fight with Luke was so powerful every force sensitive in the galaxy felt it. We've seen Palpatine do far more than Ragnos. He tears a FLEET to pieces with what is described as the greatest weapon of the Sith. And everyone neglects to mention how Ragnos's stagnation drove the Empire to what it was upon his death....and in an empire of such weaklings, no wonder he prevailed. With whiners like Kressh, delusional fools like Sadow and random people who get wiped out by Masassi...

Where's the quote that says Ragnos' empire made them weaklings?

Dude, your post is about 5% fact and 95% opinion. Want me to go over them for you? 'Kay.

Right, because Palpatine, exar, revan and Bane were clearly shown partying in the background of Ziost.

Irrelevant misdrection, logical fallacy.

Palpatine can also do exaxtly of what you just said as well and he did it without artifacts whose origins are shadowy at best.

He can do exactly what I said? Like "dominating" over the GOLDEN AGE of the SITH? (Instead of a few straggling dark siders?). Nope, this statement is an outright lie.

Artifacts that are shadowy? What part about Sith Created artifacts are shadowy? This is you interjecting your own opinion to your point. Strawman. Logical fallcy.

We know Palpatine's death reduced the Dark Side and he learned Ragnos's darkest secrets, among others.

Where's the quote that he learned "Ragnos'" darkest secrets? We know that Ragnos' death reduced the dark side too.

We know Sidious's fight with Luke was so powerful every force sensitive in the galaxy felt it. We've seen Palpatine do far more than Ragnos.

We've also seen Han Solo do more than Ragnos, does that indicate he's stronger?

Quantitative Comparison. Feat Wars. More logical fallacy.

He tears a FLEET to pieces with what is described as the greatest weapon of the Sith.

This helps him in a personal fight how, again? The Star Forge is described as the most powerful weapon in the galaxy. Ragnos is described as the most powerful of the most powerful (yes, two definitives in the same sentence, figures!).

And where does it state he "tore a fleet to pieces" in the text? Grandiose language, personal bias.

And everyone neglects to mention how Ragnos's stagnation drove the Empire to what it was upon his death....and in an empire of such weaklings, no wonder he prevailed.

Where's this in the text? Nowhere? Yup? Because you interjected your opinion. This isn't "Star Wars according to Lightsnake." Present facts and deductive reasoning.

More logical fallacy. And guilt by association, Logical Fallacy again!

With whiners like Kressh, delusional fools like Sadow and random people who get wiped out by Masassi...

The whiner like Kressh stood up to Sadow, who created superweapons and creatures that later generations of Sith all patented their powers from. If you want to argue that they are whiners or delusional, sure, but you using that to detract from them is ridiculous.

More personal bias, appeal to ridicule: logical fallacy again.

In a span of a short paragraph, you commited 6 cases of logical fallacy and 2 more of personal bias, which is another fallacy in logic. Want me to expand on your 8 instances of bullshit pulled out of your ass?

2. His spirit was beaten by Jaden, with his so called uber sceptre. And yep, his spirit which had 5000 years to focus power on Korriban.

Unless you're arguing that Ragnos grew some ****, it's not exactly Ragnos, now is it?

Now spirits get stronger over 5000 years? Prove up! And why did Sidious' spirit scurry away just moments after his death? Oh wait... more fanboy BS, right?

3. Ahhh, how we ignore what I post....we've seen Luke become a pure conduit to the Force, and show greater saber skills than anyone else. We've seen him slice through armies.

We've seen Jacen become an Avatar of the force, we've seen Kyp beat a Leviathan. "OMG, Luke never did that! You're ignoring the point that Jacen and Kyp are both > Luke!"

Burden of Proof Logical Fallacy. What is this? 9? 10?

4. You'd rather face twenty Sith Lord swho get owned by Massassi? Really now...

Which Sith Lords got "owned" by Massassi? Considering Sadow created the Massassi, he certainly didn't.

Niced Biased Sample. Hey, what do we know, more logical fallacy!!!

Yes, explain how Kun never used that blast again-oooh, and his feat was duplicated by a pack of PADAWANS!

His blast that could cut through rock, beasts, and destroy Nadd's spirit was duplicated by padawans?

Forget logical fallacy, you're just f*cking lying here.

Give me a break, you're comparing killing a beast to destroying a fleet? The same type of beast killed by a small group of Padawans? Why didn't those godly Sith use that storm? Would've saved their asses

LS: "The ancient Sith can't use storm!"
Me: "How do you know?!"
LS: "Because they never were shown using the storm!"
Me: "Why do you think they were never shown?"
LS: "Because they can't!"

Yay for circular logic and begging the question! Aww screw it, I lost count, you're argument is beyond hopeless.

They are never shown to take craps, eat meat, or sleep on their sides either, does that mean they can't?

7. Ah, yes....because Jedi ghosts are the same as Sith spirits who use a different technique and have places to focus their power.

Show me the distinction. I asked for your proof, and you provided none. You're asking me to prove a negative. Burden of Proof fallacy.

Y'know what makes Sidious automatically superior to Sadow? He used a force storm. That's it.

That's like me saying... "Y'know, Sadow had the capacity to destroy a star, that makes me think he's superior."

It's bullshit. He could have also made the star go supernova and end it right there, but he didn't. Sidious could also have used his eyes and not get benchpressed into a reactor core, but he didn't.

The fact that you're resorting to feat wars (another logical fallacy) is just being immature and showing your inability to debate for a damn.

and given that Sadow was with about fifteen or so other Sith lords at the time...may've helped instead of sacrificing his empire and he'd have killed Teta and been able to recover his empire....in fact, if KUN could do that, he'd never have needed to run and hide. You can whine and moan about 'feat wars', but that's only because Kun has never done a thing to match up to Sidious.

You mean that infiltrating an empire by becoming its Chancellor is akin to TAKING IT BY FORCE?

Weren't you the one bagging on Freedon Nadd because he made people believe he was a god? Way to make Hasty Generalizations to save Sidious.

More logical fallacy and more fanboy bullshit.

You can throw around ruling Sith Empires when those Sith were shown as NOTHING.

I don't even think I have to mention this.

By this same whim: Sidious couldn't even rule over one Darth Vader when he was nothing, hell, he was a one-armed guy in a mechanical suit.

They were beaten on THREE PLANETS. You have Kun, trapped by Padawans

Yes, I guess you left out that Luke and Vodo helped there too. Or that The Sith had already had a fair time blowing each other up!

Way to add more nails to your coffin dude.

And btw, here's the best part:

YOU HAVEN'T EVEN RETORTED TO MY POINTS!

You've effectively spent the last post doing misdirections because you can't counter my points.

I especially like where you went "oh, he did rule over the Sith Empire.. BUT they were nothing!"

A liar, a fanboy, and a piss-poor debator. I'm done with you.

EDIT

Originally posted by Illustrious
Where's the quote that says Ragnos' empire made them weaklings?

Dude, your post is about 5% fact and 95% opinion. Want me to go over them for you? 'Kay.

Irrelevant misdrection, logical fallacy.

He can do exactly what I said? Like "dominating" over the GOLDEN AGE of the SITH? (Instead of a few straggling dark siders?). Nope, this statement is an outright lie.

Artifacts that are shadowy? What part about Sith Created artifacts are shadowy? This is you interjecting your own opinion to your point. Strawman. Logical fallcy.

Where's the quote that he learned "Ragnos'" darkest secrets? We know that Ragnos' death reduced the dark side too.

We've also seen Han Solo do more than Ragnos, does that indicate he's stronger?

Quantitative Comparison. Feat Wars. More logical fallacy.

This helps him in a personal fight how, again? The Star Forge is described as the most powerful weapon in the galaxy. Ragnos is described as [b]the most powerful of the most powerful (yes, two definitives in the same sentence, figures!).

And where does it state he "tore a fleet to pieces" in the text? Grandiose language, personal bias.

Where's this in the text? Nowhere? Yup? Because you interjected your opinion. This isn't "Star Wars according to Lightsnake." Present facts and deductive reasoning.

More logical fallacy. And guilt by association, Logical Fallacy again!

The whiner like Kressh stood up to Sadow, who created superweapons and creatures that later generations of Sith all patented their powers from. If you want to argue that they are whiners or delusional, sure, but you using that to detract from them is ridiculous.

More personal bias, appeal to ridicule: logical fallacy again.

In a span of a short paragraph, you commited 6 cases of logical fallacy and 2 more of personal bias, which is another fallacy in logic. Want me to expand on your 8 instances of bullshit pulled out of your ass?

Unless you're arguing that Ragnos grew some ****, it's not exactly Ragnos, now is it?

Now spirits get stronger over 5000 years? Prove up! And why did Sidious' spirit scurry away just moments after his death? Oh wait... more fanboy BS, right?

We've seen Jacen become an Avatar of the force, we've seen Kyp beat a Leviathan. "OMG, Luke never did that! You're ignoring the point that Jacen and Kyp are both > Luke!"

Burden of Proof Logical Fallacy. What is this? 9? 10?

Which Sith Lords got "owned" by Massassi? Considering Sadow created the Massassi, he certainly didn't.

Niced Biased Sample. Hey, what do we know, more logical fallacy!!!

His blast that could cut through rock, beasts, and destroy Nadd's spirit was duplicated by padawans?

Forget logical fallacy, you're just f*cking lying here.

LS: "The ancient Sith can't use storm!"
Me: "How do you know?!"
LS: "Because they never were shown using the storm!"
Me: "Why do you think they were never shown?"
LS: "Because they can't!"

Yay for circular logic and begging the question! Aww screw it, I lost count, you're argument is beyond hopeless.

They are never shown to take craps, eat meat, or sleep on their sides either, does that mean they can't?

Show me the distinction. I asked for your proof, and you provided none. You're asking me to prove a negative. Burden of Proof fallacy.

That's like me saying... "Y'know, Sadow had the capacity to destroy a star, that makes me think he's superior."

It's bullshit. He could have also made the star go supernova and end it right there, but he didn't. Sidious could also have used his eyes and not get benchpressed into a reactor core, but he didn't.

The fact that you're resorting to feat wars (another logical fallacy) is just being immature and showing your inability to debate for a damn.

You mean that infiltrating an empire by becoming its Chancellor is akin to TAKING IT BY FORCE?

Weren't you the one bagging on Freedon Nadd because he made people believe he was a god? Way to make Hasty Generalizations to save Sidious.

More logical fallacy and more fanboy bullshit.

I don't even think I have to mention this.

By this same whim: Sidious couldn't even rule over one Darth Vader when he was nothing, hell, he was a one-armed guy in a mechanical suit.

Yes, I guess you left out that Luke and Vodo helped there too. Or that The Sith had already had a fair time blowing each other up!

Way to add more nails to your coffin dude.

And btw, here's the best part:

YOU HAVEN'T EVEN RETORTED TO MY POINTS!

You've effectively spent the last post doing misdirections because you can't counter my points.

I especially like where you went "oh, he did rule over the Sith Empire.. BUT they were nothing!"

A liar, a fanboy, and a piss-poor debator. I'm done with you. [/B]

1. Gee, it took them a WEEK to fall apart after Ragnos died, maybe less....

2. C'mon, where did how godlike they were count towards later eras?

3. A few straggling Darksiders? Ignoring the massive sith academies he erected, the Prophets/dark warriors/Dark Side Elite/.Inquisitors and HANDS...

4. Proof Ragnos's death reduced the dark side. And considering it was said he learned the dakrest secrets of the Sith ghosts on Korriban...

5. Was Han a force user of any reknown? Logical fallacy. Irrelevant point.

6. Ragnos still had living flesh. He lost. Period. And from EMpire's End, it's stated the Sith created Korriban to focus Dark Side powers...and the ghosts had used that.

7. We've seen Luke become an avatar of the Force. What's your point? And thanks for undermining Kun for me. Him killing a Leviathan really doesn't seem to impressive now.

8. I meant his feat of killing a Leviathan wa sduplicated by Padawans.

9. When did Sith Lords get owned by Massassi? When Sadow decided to escape and had his Massassi kill the other Sith on the ships? When Horak and Dol-Gar Ram died?

10. Now, if Sadow and his....fifteen or so Sith Lords could use a Force storm, would they not have done so when faced with pursuing ships from Teta and the Republic INSTEAD of offering the entire empire as a sacrifice? Logic, logic.

11. Well, when you ignore Sadow used a super weapon to destroy a star....a winner is he!

12. Exar tried the stealth thing. He failed. Managed to **** up horribly because of Ulic.

13. Yes, how quickly we forget Vader was destined to kill Sidious and was his dog for twenty years. Better than being trapped by Padawans. The Sith'd already had a fair time blowing eachother up? The fight ended when Ludo died, rather quickly. Luke and Vodo helped? AFTER Kun walked into an obvious trap.

14. Show me where any Sith Lord of the old empire in Golden Age and Fall proved to be worth their salt. They lost on THREE WORLDS.

It's funny, how when I provide passages you seem to say 'I'm done with you.'

Run along, hypocrite.

To begin with, the evidence about Ragnos is, as much as you may not like it, shaky. First off, all those quotes you posted proves that he was the strongest of the ancient sith, but I never argued that, I do however argue the fact that these seems to make him unbeatable.

When did I say he was unbeatable. Don't put words in my mouth without being able to back it up.

I mean, the only real show of power we've seen from the ancient sith is from Sadow, whose two biggest feats, the star rip and the illusions, were done with extra equip, his ship and the meditation sphere in this case. Now, that being said, there is no evidence of Ragnos being able to reproduce these feats sans equip.

And there's no evidence Luke could have hacked away the Vong armies without a lightsaber, or that Sidious could have taken over the Republic without political influences. Are you done with speculation?

What part of omniscient narration calling them godlike with titanic power, or other individuals proclaiming the ancients as individuals that would "dwarf" and make the jedi look like "children" with lightsabers is unclear? What's unclear that their sith techniques (include various instakill methods) and artifacts make generations of individuals become uber foes? What's unclear about their remarkable alchemical prowess in creating beasts of war and superweapons that can blow up stars with a wave of a hand?

Guess what? With those quotes and facts, the burden of proof is on you to produce irrefutable evidence to deny it. You haven't.

It's about as shaky as arguing that Sidious didn't actually rule over the galaxy, or that Phoenix isn't actually the primal force of creation in the Marvel Universe. You can't argue with the stated canon unless you have irrefutable evidence.

The scepter is also dubious, as a full on blast only knocked down Katarn, and this assumes he goes into battle with the scepter charged.

Where did it ever say a full blast? We know it absorbed the force from entire nexu and planets, and that it leveled a building. Are you trying to argue that Katarn has a strong consistency that that? Are you trying to claim that after infusing the force to previously NON FORCE SENSITIVES, that the scepter had full power? Logic?

And as far as Kun's concerned I don't know why Ragnos was brought up. And Kun's blasting open of walls is one thing, Sidious taking down whole ships is another, and yes he can focus it. In fact, he was about to do it against Luke until Luke (augmented) made it backfire, though I'm sure Lightsnake could give you a more accurate description of events. And Kun froze the senate, which was a few thousand beings that were overwhelmingly non-force users.

So wait, having someone force your power to backfire is somehow more impressive than freezing thousands of being simultaneously? And yet, you attempt to throw around petty degradations such as overwhelming non-force users?

Do you have any evidence that force users are so much harder to freeze that Kun wouldn't have been able to do it? I seem to recall that those frozen force users didn't exactly move much more than the senators.

Plus, do you really think this helps him? It's not like he'll be able to freeze either Luke or Sids. Also, if you're going by what the narrator says about the staff, then you must agree that when the narrator says that Sidious is the greatest sith lord of all time, it's also true.

Read what Borbarad mentions about the passage. If you won't, I can always rephrase it for you.

Later versions of canon can easily be retconned. DE acted under the premise that the Sith Order was 2000 years old. In fact, it was later adjusted that the Sith Order was much older, and that the golden age was actually 5000 years before the events in question.

Need I remind you that the Golden Age describes the absolute peak of the power of the Sith (even more evidence for the point).

The point is moot because the circumstances involving the passage is retconned. As Borbarad mentioned, wouldn't you say after watching the first movie that no one could've beaten Neo? Would you say the same after watching Smith kick his ass?

Originally posted by Illustrious
When did I say he was unbeatable. Don't put words in my mouth without being able to back it up.

And there's no evidence Luke could have hacked away the Vong armies without a lightsaber, or that Sidious could have taken over the Republic without political influences. Are you done with speculation?

What part of omniscient narration calling them godlike with titanic power, or other individuals proclaiming the ancients as individuals that would "dwarf" and make the jedi look like "children" with lightsabers is unclear? What's unclear that their sith techniques (include various instakill methods) and artifacts make generations of individuals become uber foes? What's unclear about their remarkable alchemical prowess in creating beasts of war and superweapons that can blow up stars with a wave of a hand?

Guess what? With those quotes and facts, the burden of proof is on [b]you to produce irrefutable evidence to deny it. You haven't.

It's about as shaky as arguing that Sidious didn't actually rule over the galaxy, or that Phoenix isn't actually the primal force of creation in the Marvel Universe. You can't argue with the stated canon unless you have irrefutable evidence.

Where did it ever say a full blast? We know it absorbed the force from entire nexu and planets, and that it leveled a building. Are you trying to argue that Katarn has a strong consistency that that? Are you trying to claim that after infusing the force to previously NON FORCE SENSITIVES, that the scepter had full power? Logic?

So wait, having someone force your power to backfire is somehow more impressive than freezing thousands of being simultaneously? And yet, you attempt to throw around petty degradations such as overwhelming non-force users?

Do you have any evidence that force users are so much harder to freeze that Kun wouldn't have been able to do it? I seem to recall that those frozen force users didn't exactly move much more than the senators.

Read what Borbarad mentions about the passage. If you won't, I can always rephrase it for you.

Later versions of canon can easily be retconned. DE acted under the premise that the Sith Order was 2000 years old. In fact, it was later adjusted that the Sith Order was much older, and that the golden age was actually 5000 years before the events in question.

Need I remind you that the Golden Age describes the absolute peak of the power of the Sith (even more evidence for the point).

The point is moot because the circumstances involving the passage is retconned. As Borbarad mentioned, wouldn't you say after watching the first movie that no one could've beaten Neo? Would you say the same after watching Smith kick his ass? [/B]

1. Great, who can't Ragnos beat then? And Luke hacked his way through a dark Jedi army, a stormtrooper army AND a Vong army at seperate points in time.

2. What omniscient part of the narraration? Only the part that declares the following: Waves of power and emotion poured off of the peerless antagonists, sending shudders through the vast warship from stem to stern. The overwhelming atmosphere of the battle struck the crew almost instantly; some collapsed at their battle stations, insensate and traumatized, while others fell dead where they stood. All throughout the galaxy those who were sensitive to the Force could feel the violence of the clash of titans, could feel the intensity of the test of wills.

And it describes Palpatine and Luke as 'Godlike'....and 'The godlike emperor conqueored himself'

3. And what is the stated canon then, Illustrious? Nothing ever says Ragnos was the strongest Sith Lord ever.

4. do I have to post the quote saying the full fury of the Force was used on Palpatine by the sKywalkers? Or that all the Jedi held him in the dark side? AGAIN? Please.

5. Those forzen force users were killing Kun's Massassi and advancing on him.

6. *Yawn* DE is still canon and there've been no retcons...the most recent pieces of canon still feature it...and operated under the assumption the SE was 2000 years old? HAH! they never give a date! The NEw Essential Chronology is the FIRST source to ever state that, effectively debunking this 25,000 years stuff.

7. Notice that golden age was described for the SITH EMPIRE OF THAT TIME which fell immediately after Naga took the crown.

8. I'd say 'Wait for the third movie' where Neo shows himself to be stronger than Smith and effectively sacrifices himself to destroy him, giving him life as a messiah should

1) Reading through the garbage that passes for your post, Lightsnake, I just surmised that you claimed Sidious could do everything Ragnos did.

Prove up. It'll be quite amusing to watch.

2) His spirit was beaten by Jaden... after being 5000 years old and ergo weaker and in a weakling's body. Spirits lose power over time, face it.

3) Greater saber skills than anyone else? Yeah, maybe anyone else of his time except Vader, who toys with him and seems to throw the fight in ROTJ. Throw him up against practically anyone from the PT, however, and he'll get tooled.

4) It's more accurate to say they get betrayed and overwhelmed by Massassi. But it's better to get owned by a horde of Massassi than to get chucked into a reactor by a one-armed cyborg.

5) Because he never needed to. He's never gone up against a life-threatening opponent afterwards. And to say that he couldn't if needed is pure, biased bullshit. No evidence. No logic. Just fanboyism.

And for the last time, the creature killed by Exar Kun is not a leviathan. It is unnamed in the comic and is mentioned elsewhere to be a "sith wyrm."

Yes, he killed two Jedi who display more impressive force abilities than Yoda, but "OMG THEY NEVER DO ANYTHING OF POWER."

6) Oh. Because Sidious says he's godlike then it must be true. Because arrogance is not a prime character trait in darksiders.

7) Prove it.

8) You know what makes Sadow superior to Sidious? He invented a weapon by which one could channel the force to rip the core from a star and trigger a supernova. He invented another weapon by which he could project illusions that could fight onto the battlefield. He created Sith amulets. He is commonly noted as one of the Sith's greatest magicians and alchemists.

That's why a Force Storm would've been irrelevant. You actually think it would've done dick-all to those Jedi? Put Sidious in his place and they would've done a lot worse than merely throw it back at him.

Prove that Kun needed amulets to do anything. Prove what Sidious learned from the Sith after 5000 years of their empire's destruction. Prove his trove of knowledge is anywhere near what Kun acquired, described by the narrator as "more wealth and knowledge than he can ever use."

You can't. There is no proof. Just fanboy bias.

1. Gee, it took them a WEEK to fall apart after Ragnos died, maybe less....

"Oh gee, it took a week for Sidious' grand armee of Dark Siders to fall apart after his death, maybe less..."

Great job.

2. C'mon, where did how godlike they were count towards later eras?

How godlike was Sidious when he was on all-fours and saberless against Mace? Making more circumstantial excuses.

3. A few straggling Darksiders? Ignoring the massive sith academies he erected, the Prophets/dark warriors/Dark Side Elite/.Inquisitors and HANDS...

Like how you retorted to my actual point... [/sarcasm]. Way to strawman the place.

4. Proof Ragnos's death reduced the dark side. And considering it was said he learned the dakrest secrets of the Sith ghosts on Korriban...

Since when does Sith ghosts on Korriban indicate he learned the darkest secrets of Ragnos specifically? And when you undermine the power of the ancient sith, it doesn't do well for someone who gets his power and knowledge from him, does it?

5. Was Han a force user of any reknown? Logical fallacy. Irrelevant point.

I'm glad you can recognize your OWN logical fallacy. Good job. -pats head-

6. Ragnos still had living flesh. He lost. Period. And from EMpire's End, it's stated the Sith created Korriban to focus Dark Side powers...and the ghosts had used that.

LMFAO. Look how you change the parameters. Somehow living flesh quantifies his power when you argued earlier that the spirits were stronger than the living.

What hypocrisy.

7. We've seen Luke become an avatar of the Force. What's your point? And thanks for undermining Kun for me. Him killing a Leviathan really doesn't seem to impressive now.

He was never cited to become "one with the force." "OMG, Jacen must be stronger!"

Such is the logic of one Lightsnake?

And when did Kun kill a Leviathan? Do you know what a Leviathan looks like? Was it stated as a Leviathan? Way to show off that nonexistent knowledge.

8. I meant his feat of killing a Leviathan wa sduplicated by Padawans.

Again, see above.

"zOMG, the Deathstar obliterated an entire planet! Deathstar > Sidious!"

9. When did Sith Lords get owned by Massassi? When Sadow decided to escape and had his Massassi kill the other Sith on the ships? When Horak and Dol-Gar Ram died?

Were those two ever called given the title of Sith Lords? You mean the same Massassi that fought Jedi and Republic forces to a stalemate on the ground front while 90% of their ranks were actually Illusions?

10. Now, if Sadow and his....fifteen or so Sith Lords could use a Force storm, would they not have done so when faced with pursuing ships from Teta and the Republic INSTEAD of offering the entire empire as a sacrifice? Logic, logic.

If Sadow could have destroyed the nearby star, wouldn't he have done that instead of sacrificing the empire? He was overconfident, I'll admit, just like Sidious was when he was benchpressed down a reactor.

Regardless of what you claim, getting thrown down a reactor core by a maimed cripple (wow, double jeopardy) is not a good showing.

11. Well, when you ignore Sadow used a super weapon to destroy a star....a winner is he!

No, it's more like when you ignore the fact you have no ability to quantify his power without his toys, assume he fights naked, and have no ammunition to debunk the narrators description, a winner is you!

12. Exar tried the stealth thing. He failed. Managed to **** up horribly because of Ulic.

Is that why he decided to say "screw it" and just waltz into the senate? Face it, Sidious had superior tact, but that doesn't make him the superior fighter.

13. Yes, how quickly we forget Vader was destined to kill Sidious and was his dog for twenty years. Better than being trapped by Padawans. The Sith'd already had a fair time blowing eachother up? The fight ended when Ludo died, rather quickly. Luke and Vodo helped? AFTER Kun walked into an obvious trap.

He wasn't trapped simply by padawans, I love how you point out the fallacy in that statement, and you still use it. Fact of the matter is he got benchpressed because of his stupidity. Ever thought the prophecy was stated BECAUSE (not in spite of) his stupidity? Oh wait, nope, because Sidious is infallable.

14. Show me where any Sith Lord of the old empire in Golden Age and Fall proved to be worth their salt. They lost on THREE WORLDS.

Show me how Sidious is worth his salt? He was put on his ass by Mace Windu, benchpressed down a reactor core by a cripple, had his hand hewn by someone who had submitted to him, and was shot in the back by a nonforce sensitive.

Why do you make excuses for one party but not the other? Man up and profess.

It's funny, how when I provide passages you seem to say 'I'm done with you.'

Run along, hypocrite.

Really Lightsnake, you arguing anyone is a hypocrite isn't the smartest recourse. You want to see how many people have found hypocrisy in your argument?

Yes, you commited about 20 logical fallacies in your last post alone, your only ability to point out one of mine was when I mocked your own logic.

Run along now.

Originally posted by IKC
1) Reading through the garbage that passes for your post, Lightsnake, I just surmised that you claimed Sidious could do everything Ragnos did.

Prove up. It'll be quite amusing to watch.

2) His spirit was beaten by Jaden... after being 5000 years old and ergo weaker and in a weakling's body. Spirits lose power over time, face it.

3) Greater saber skills than anyone else? Yeah, maybe anyone else of his time except Vader, who toys with him and seems to throw the fight in ROTJ. Throw him up against practically anyone from the PT, however, and he'll get tooled.

4) It's more accurate to say they get betrayed and overwhelmed by Massassi. But it's better to get owned by a horde of Massassi than to get chucked into a reactor by a one-armed cyborg.

5) Because he never needed to. He's never gone up against a life-threatening opponent afterwards. And to say that he couldn't if needed is pure, biased bullshit. No evidence. No logic. Just fanboyism.

And for the last time, the creature killed by Exar Kun is not a leviathan. It is unnamed in the comic and is mentioned elsewhere to be a "sith wyrm."

Yes, he killed two Jedi who display more impressive force abilities than Yoda, but "OMG THEY NEVER DO ANYTHING OF POWER."

6) Oh. Because Sidious says he's godlike then it must be true. Because arrogance is not a prime character trait in darksiders.

7) Prove it.

8) You know what makes Sadow superior to Sidious? He invented a weapon by which one could channel the force to rip the core from a star and trigger a supernova. He invented another weapon by which he could project illusions that could fight onto the battlefield. He created Sith amulets. He is commonly noted as one of the Sith's greatest magicians and alchemists.

That's why a Force Storm would've been irrelevant. You actually think it would've done dick-all to those Jedi? Put Sidious in his place and they would've done a lot worse than merely throw it back at him.

Prove that Kun needed amulets to do anything. Prove what Sidious learned from the Sith after 5000 years of their empire's destruction. Prove his trove of knowledge is anywhere near what Kun acquired, described by the narrator as "more wealth and knowledge than he can ever use."

You can't. There is no proof. Just fanboy bias.

1. *Yawn* I posted the passage numerous times.

2. proof Dark side spirits lose power when in Empire's End it's stated the Sith had Korriban to PREVENT that and focus their power?

3. Yes, greater saber skills. He's proved it several times. Just read that little passage above. Palp and Vader's energy resonating was felt by every force sensitive in the galaxy.

4. You mean 'betrayed and killed by your own servants when you have no defenses and many Sith warriors' vs. 'Killed by the Chosen One' when you're already killing someone and using Battle MEditation

5. It looks like a leviathan, uses blister traps....

6. Sidious? That's the narrarator's POV....Sidious is hardly referring to himself IN THIRD PERSON as he dies.

7. Name a SINGLE THING OF POWER Odan and Vodo ever display. Making a saber strong? Great work, a random Jedi named Torr Snappit does that in Ruusan. Odan was worthless in the Hyperspace wars...and Vodo? What'd he do that was more incredible than the Avatar of light and strongest foe'd the darkness'd ever known..

8. Prove what now? Lost that last post.

9. Proof Sadow invented it. Sadow still needed a weapon. Power isn't technological savvy. We never see Kun do a ting without those amulets and until he got them, he was being squeezed to death. Crack open the DS sourcebook or Empire's End where it's directly stated he learned from Korriban and the Sith Worlds and the like.

And y'know what's reeeeal funny? Kun never used ANY of that info and it was apparently found by Palp when he visited Yavin. Shall I post that big essay again? Be more than happy to. Source by the by? Complete Locations

I love this, the longer we go on, the more logical fallacies show up in your argument. You seem to be a bit too slow to catch that you're not exactly helping yourself any by strawmanning points and then retorting with silly suppositions.

Did I argue that Naga Sadow was not the victim of PIS? No. But he certainly wasn't overpowered by DE Luke and co., didn't get his hand HEWN off, and didn't get picked up by a cripple and tossed into a reactor core.

By your logic, since Sadow never had that happen to him, he's superior. Why does your examples only apply to his good showings?

That's like argung "well if Anakin wasn't crippled, or if he wasn't an idiot, and if he reached his potential, he'd be the strongest ever!" Pointless hypothetical and assumptions.

Originally posted by Illustrious
I love this, the longer we go on, the more logical fallacies show up in your argument. You seem to be a bit too slow to catch that you're not exactly helping yourself any by strawmanning points and then retorting with silly suppositions.

Did I argue that Naga Sadow was not the victim of PIS? No. But he certainly wasn't [b]overpowered by DE Luke and co., didn't get his hand HEWN off, and didn't get picked up by a cripple and tossed into a reactor core.

By your logic, since Sadow never had that happen to him, he's superior. Why does your examples only apply to his good showings?

That's like argung "well if Anakin wasn't crippled, or if he wasn't an idiot, and if he reached his potential, he'd be the strongest ever!" Pointless hypothetical and assumptions. [/B]

Did Naga lose all his forces on three worlds and lead people capable of being killed by beast men with knives? Some Gods

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And your worthless hypocrisy is any better? Yes, let's IGNORE the provided passages showing how the entire power of the force was turned on Sidious and brought him into the light! Let's ignore Anakin was, according to Lucas, DESTINED to kill Palpatine.

Did Naga lose all his forces on three worlds and lead people capable of being killed by beast men with knives? Some Gods

Hah, this is quite comical looking at you get riled up. You ignored all the points this time and argued that I'm a hypocrite.

This is coming from the guy that applies one-sided loose constructionist and apologist logic for Sidious, and yet calls the ancient Sith (who are praised lord knows how many times) as "worthless" right?

And somehow, their PIS is far worse than someone who was owned 3, 4 times. Awesome man, truly hilarious. Do standup comedy, your fanboyism knows no bounds.

No comment on your endless list of logical fallacy? Dude, I could write a book with just examples from this thread alone. Thanks. I'm glad you like to turn it personal. Your hypocrisy has been displayed on a far higher level than mine, just ask respected members around here like IKC, Janus, Borbarad, Faunus, and Lord Darkstar.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Hah, this is quite comical looking at you get riled up. You ignored all the points this time and argued that I'm a hypocrite.

This is coming from the guy that applies one-sided loose constructionist and apologist logic for Sidious, and yet calls the ancient Sith (who are praised lord knows how many times) as "worthless" right?

And somehow, their PIS is far worse than someone who was owned 3, 4 times. Awesome man, truly hilarious. Do standup comedy, your fanboyism knows no bounds.

No comment on your endless list of logical fallacy? Dude, I could write a book with just examples from this thread alone. Thanks. I'm glad you like to turn it personal. Your hypocrisy has been displayed on a far higher level than mine, just ask respected members around here like IKC, Janus, Borbarad, Faunus, and Lord Darkstar.

From people who say 'No matter what was intended, what was shown...' etc etc etc.
Alright, what did I miss? I'll answer it here.

And Given the Ancient Sith had to be tricked inbto going to war, went to war over the death of a talking head to avenge their sithy rihgteousness on the Republic. When'd they kill a Jedi? When'd they destroy a world? When'd they show intelligence? When'd they crush the galaxy under their boot? When'd they do something WITHOUT technology?
And turned it personal? You've been the one throwing around insults from the start

And thanks for admitting you're a hypocrite on a 'lower level'.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
From people who say 'No matter what was intended, what was shown...' etc etc etc.
Alright, what did I miss? I'll answer it here.

And Given the Ancient Sith had to be tricked inbto going to war, went to war over the death of a talking head to avenge their sithy rihgteousness on the Republic. When'd they kill a Jedi? When'd they destroy a world? When'd they show intelligence? When'd they crush the galaxy under their boot? When'd they do something WITHOUT technology?
And turned it personal? You've been the one throwing around insults from the start

And thanks for admitting you're a hypocrite on a 'lower level'.

I never admitted to being a hypocrite, I said you've demonstrated far greater hypocrisy than me. Great interpretation of what I said. Maybe that's why everyone thinks you're a lying fanboy.

I can do the same thing:

Given that Sidious had to scrounge around for Sith teachings to become before, had to sneak around Naboo and get elected senator, got discovered by Anakin of all people, got put on his ass by Mace Windu and had to get bailed out, had his "uber" lightning reversed by Yoda and sent flying back from his own power, had his body thrown down a reactor core, couldn't even control his own body, had his clone body's hand slashed up by a DE Luke that years later said would need all the combined might to defeat Ragnos, had his ability jammed by other Jedi, and was shot in the back by a non force sensitive, all the while doing next to nothing as a spirit.

And then you prop up everyone that Sidious ever went with. You're shamelessly plugging your favorite character.

You dog their use of technology, but you can't pinpoint how strong they are without it. Apparently Sidious must be an idiot because he doesn't use the artifacts that he has.

So am I weak because I drive to work instead of jog? The supposition doesn't support the postulate.

You've committed countless logical fallacies in this thread alone, and when I point them out, you act like they never happened.

You want more? I could file a grievance longer than the Declaration of Independence.

You're the one making this personal, beating away your hypocrisy and baseless, biased statements is not attacking you -- obviously you have far too much of a fanboy tie to your favorite character because you have no provided the reasoning needed to back up your claims.

You argue that we ignore what the text says, but you somehow do it for the entire TOTJ.

In short, learn to debate, or else get out of the courtroom.

Everyone? Cute. ecause IKC's word is law. Because I admitted what I was wrong on there.

Waaait, providing ACTUAL info to what he used-and I can prove all my comments on Mace and Yoda- is being a fanboy? And since Sidious is demonstrated to be a 'titan' and 'godlike' WITHOUT artifacts....if Sadow didn't need his ship to destroy stars, wouldn't he have done so?

And me makign this personal? Please, you and IKC started the attacks long ago.

You can ignore that passage I posted all you want but until you deal with it, I have the advantage. Says there Palpatine learned all aspects of the force, from the Sith to the Jedi to the Nightsisters. And really? Your logical fallacies are boundless. Lets ignore how good Mace and Yoda were! Only declared the best swordsman and greatest avatar of light respectively! Let's ignore Vader was a Chosen one and how strong Vader was!
But no, point out something Sidious did, it's INSTANTLY-from the START of all these debates- said how he died, and ignored how strong he wactually was, ignored all he's done, ignored how he used the Siths' greatest weapon to as good as it was ever used. It's ignored how Kun lost, ignored how Ragnos screwed up for what? Because he's praised by random people? I actually provided an essay with numerous sources showing what he has and has done and still, NOTHING

For the sake of being civil, I will apologize, though I ask that you follow your own advice,

"I love the logical fallacy of people around here. We have all the logic and evidence suggesting Ragnos was some uber lord over the Dark Side, yet somehow, someway, using some paragon of twisted logic, they assume the very worse out of him. What low showing are you going off of? His defeat to Jaden? His 5000 year old spirit's defeat to Jaden when he possessed a body that was already beaten? His defeat that didn't even kill him?"

That whole paragraph was puting words in my mouth (especially considaring that I didn't even mention the JA part), so don't start trying to gain the moral high ground here.

You don't seem to understand where I'm coming from here, the problem I have with your entire argument is that it is entirly based on these quotes which don't prove anything. You keep saying that being called titanic in force power proves something, but it doesn't. I only shows that they were powerful, yes, very powerful, but it in no way shows that Ragnos would beat Luke. I just don't understand why you continue to cling to them. For examle, making jedi look like children, relative as it was about an era 4,000 years in the past. "Dwarf", again, relative, not a quote which can be applied to all Jedi(though, if you don't mind, could you tell me who it was referencing, that would make it clearer). The construction of the superweapons and alchemic enhancers is better, but still off as the only thing we know ragnos made was his scepter. And that was never very impressive in terms of combat. yes, I'm well aware that it could absorb the force out of a planet, but it didn't seem like it could discharge that much at once, if it could Tavion would have destroyed Jaden, or when Jaden blasted Kyle it would have done more than knock him to the groud, also, this is the staff after it empowered the Cultists, and after it absorbed Vijun, Yavin, Hoth, etc.

Force users would be harder to freeze simply because they too can use the force to resist the influence of others. And the force users in the room were of unknown power, regardless, they weren't as powerful as Sidious so it's a moot point. And I also have to ask, do you not find stopping an entire fleet with the force impressive?

Finally, I apologive again, I wasn't clear here. I, personally don't hold a lot of faith in quotes like that. Quotes can be easily misinterprited, or interpreted to fit one's opinoin, be applied to a situation it wasn't meant to be, and simply be the author throwing his weight around. That being said, I won't push the point about the quote as I don't really believe it proves much of anything. however, I will say that your logic applies here. The quote about him being the "strongest of the strongest" can easily fall prey to retconning.

And for the record, my favorite SW characters: Yoda, Obi-wan, Tyranus, Han Solo.

EU wise: Mara Jade, Luke, Ben SKywalker.