Revan vs Exar Kun (without Sith amulets/power amplification)

1) The fact of the matter is that it's irrelevant. It hardly matters if she is correct or not, particularly since the ancient Sith did not wield lightsabers, individuals like Naga or Marka or Ludo used sith swords.

So? Revan could have transferred what he had learned from the holocron about mastery of the seven forms from the sith sword to the lightsabre. It makes little difference, all we know is that Revan studied from the holocron of the greatest duelist and thus learned how to use a lightsabre with a mastery not seen since.

2) And even if he did, it does not reflect on Revan's lightsaber prowess. Yoda uses ataru, he likely had students that learned and mastered that technique. Qui-Gon learned and mastered Ataru, but he did not do it to anywhere near the degree Yoda did.

Your point? It is obvious that the best duelist in the galaxy is superior to Yoda in swordsmanship skills. Revan learned from his holocron, hence Revan almost ties for the title.

3) Where is this stated in KotOR (II)? I've played through them more than once, and I don't recall where it says Revan mastered Form VII.

I ask that you read my previous posts.

4) You're asking us to prove a negative? No. You have to prove the positive.

No, I was saying that you cannot make a final judgment of Revan not being the superior from what “you” call inconclusive evidence, but what I believe evidence enough of his superiority.

5) You could just be overwhelmingly proficient in one kind. Kun, for example, didn't master all the forms, but he easily beat up anyone he fought with his unique lightsaber form.

It doesn’t matter because Revan learned from Tulak Hord’s holocron. He picked up knowledge from the best duelist in the galaxy. *Sigh* I wish you people can accept that. They’re even in a time period after Exar Kun, and that’s when Kreia stated that Tulak Hord was the best duelist! Yes I said that! Better than old Exar! Sheesh

6) Notice how he said every aspect. Unless that's established, it's not conclusive, ergo not admissable.

Well then, I interpreted for every relevant aspect to a Jedi/Sith. From Kreia’s dialogue, Revan was the superior of the two.

7) So he spent 5 years doing absolutely nothing but search for the star maps? Where was this?

Whether it was 5 or 1 I am not sure. It was stated in the Rakatan temple.

8) It is unreasonable to assume (without any evidence to suggest of it) that Revan hung out with Ancient Sith spirits.

The evidence from the comics suggests that Exar was more of a brute than a mastermind. I doubt he would pick up skills as quickly as someone of superior intellect, in this case one such as Revan.

But the point about Revan hanging out with ancient Sith spirits, he was approached by Adjunta Pall, it is then safe to assume that other Sith Lords would have a approached a Jedi so sensitive in the force. It does not matter anyways. Revan learned much from the dark side, but his strength waxed full as a Jedi, when he was with the light. As I stated before: “Revan was destined to return to the light, why would a Sith lord approach him?”

9) His point is that Sith Alchemy > tinkering with tools. By that logic, 10 year old Anakin is superior to Exar Kun.

Excuse me? I would treat his logic with less than a grain of dust. 10 year old Anakin made a simpleton trash droid with no firepower no nothing except the ability to talk to different desert folk in Tatooine. I can hardly compare anything between the two, except HK’s superior protocol ability.

Admit it gentleman, I am right, Revan is the superior Jedi by the Star Forge’s end.

1) Where do you get that from ? Notice how lightsaber styles aren't even part of KotoR 1...

Before KOTOR friend. He learned them before KOTOR,

2) Second: You should listen to Kreia. She states that Tulak Hord had used his own style and left the knowledge of that style in a Holocron (which is lost now).

It matters not. Although you do not state evidence that the best lightsabre duelist did not master all seven forms of lightsabre combat I will ignore it.

So "in the light of the situation" it makes more sense that Tulak designed his own style and this was so uber that virtually noone could beat him.

“In light of the situation”, guess who learned from the holocron of the best duelist? Darth Revan himself! Your attempt at dislodging my argument only strengthened it 😛.

3) Is Bastilla better than every Jedi in the KotoR era because she was the best when it came to using battle meditation ? Was Obi-Wan a greater force user / lightsaber duellist in TPM than Qui-Gon because Obi-Wan did survive Maul and Qui-Gon didn't

I do not find this analogy particularly relevant against my arguments. I was stating that Revan had greater mastery over force forms than even Kreia, simply because she said so herself. I suggest you come up with a better analogy, friend.

4) In KotoR II if you have enough stealth skill you can run through the entire academy without killing one opponent except Sion and Kreia

Again I stated that Revan’s defeating of an army of dark Jedi was canon. Kreia even stated ."Revan was power. Staring into his eyes was like staring into the heart of the Force. Even then, you could see the Jedi he would slay etched on his soul."

5) Oh yes ? So it took him 5 years to do something which he managed to do again in weeks later ? In fact there is just 1 year between the Mandalorian Wars and the Jedi Civil War in which Revan had time to discover the maps and maximum 3 years added until the end of that war (the events shown in KotoR I).

The time period he spent searching for the Star maps during Malak’s reign is irrelevant. He had the help from the “visions” shared between himself and Bastilla. The exact number of years I don’t know. What I was getting at though was how the Rakatan’s stated the majority of time spent by Revan was in searching for the star maps.

6) hasn't visited the tombs of Ragnos, Sadow, Ajunta Pall and Tulak Hord before KotoR as we have seen

This is absolutely false. I am now unsure of how much you know about Revan, and whether or not I should disregard the rest of your arguments with respect to Revan. Revan when searching for the star maps (before KOTOR) visited Korriban. When you speak to the spirit of Ajunta Pall, he says that he was visited by you before. There, evidence that he visited the tombs before KOTOR.

7) So as you can see, Kun had by far the greater knowledge base to learn from and - assuming that Revan plundered Malachor V before he let it be destroyed - less time to study it but he has learned basically anything to learn from it.

Whether or not Kun learned more is inconclusive. Even if, the amount learned is not always as important as the application of what is learned. If I memorize a lot before a physics test, it means nothing. If I write the test with a clear method on how to apply what I learned, that is what characterizes success from failure. Revan has that advantage over Kun. Luke considered the strongest Jedi ever, was never completely trained by any Jedi master.

8) We have seen HK-47 do nothing. I never put him in my group and so he never killed anybody except some "meatbags". Notice how it doesn't say "I killed pissed off Jedi meatbags".

HK-47 was one of Revan’s top assassin’s before and after the Mandalorian Wars. He undoubtedly had to kill a few Jedi, otherwise he would be no different from the crony droids Revan had in his army.

9) Entering the Star Forge is "canon", how many people / droids he fought there is not.

Refer again to previous point, and enter quote from Kreia.

A worthy attempt but not going to cut it. Revan still beats old Exar

Old Exar? We know the age of Exar Kun, Revan could be basically an 100 year-old man, inside a cool suit.

Originally posted by zephiel7
I do have canonical evidence friend, read the above posts. Also the polls would seem to say otherwise.

Canonical? Where? If you do have any, you sure haven't posted it. Also, polls don't really mean anything, but even those aren't in Revan's favor.

What has Revan done? Really, quite little canonically, acually. He defated Malak, Bandon, Nord, and....oh yes, that little Sith Govenor on Taris. That's just about it.

And learning from a holocron is nothing next to learning from the actual person. Notice that Kreia calls ALL Masters since Tulak children playing with toys. It more or less screws over your argument in that area as Revan is included in the children's area.

So? Revan could have transferred what he had learned from the holocron about mastery of the seven forms from the sith sword to the lightsabre. It makes little difference, all we know is that Revan studied from the holocron of the greatest duelist and thus learned how to use a lightsabre with a mastery not seen since.

WTF? Are you hearing yourself?

"Revan could have" or "Revan might have." That's called BULLSHIT. Don't bother me with what he coulda, shoulda, woulda. Argue what he did. He did learn the Holocron, it was a holocron that DID NOT contain Sith Sword techniques, ergo the weight of Tulak being "the best lightsaber duelist of the Ancient Sith" decreases.

Nowhere was it stated Tulak knows all seven forms, or that Revan knew all seven. Assuming he does is making every positive assumption for your character. When you do that, you = fanboy.

Your point? It is obvious that the best duelist in the galaxy is superior to Yoda in swordsmanship skills. Revan learned from his holocron, hence Revan almost ties for the title.

WTF? Did you not read what I said? Since when does learning from someone make you the best duelist?

Yoda was the best duelist in the PT era, but that doesn't mean that everyone that learned from him also happened to contend for that title, did he?

How the hell did you draw that false conclusion?

I ask that you read my previous posts.

And I'll point out that you did not answer this question. Form VII is not even given mention in KotOR storyline.

No, I was saying that you cannot make a final judgment of Revan not being the superior from what “you” call inconclusive evidence, but what I believe evidence enough of his superiority.

It's not about what you believe or not.

Canon policy does not change. You can't say "well I believe Revan is god, therefore he is." Canon never says he mastered all seven forms, or that he was the greatest lightsaber duelist of all time.

It never mentions it. Assuming he does is ridiculous. Should I assume Coleman Trebor is the best because it never remarks about his lightsaber skills?

It doesn’t matter because Revan learned from Tulak Hord’s holocron. He picked up knowledge from the best duelist in the galaxy. *Sigh* I wish you people can accept that. They’re even in a time period after Exar Kun, and that’s when Kreia stated that Tulak Hord was the best duelist! Yes I said that! Better than old Exar! Sheesh

Again. Tell me how learning from someone makes you instantly better than them? Show me where she demonstrates this?

Also, mind you, she said (quote unquote) "[Tulak] was the best lightsaber duelist of the Ancient Sith." Exar Kun =/= Ancient Sith, k? Thanks. And again, you simply have Kreia's word for it, instead of anything that's concrete in the first place.

So basically you have something insubstantial + inconclusive interpretation. That's not proof. You need to prove up.

Well then, I interpreted for every relevant aspect to a Jedi/Sith. From Kreia’s dialogue, Revan was the superior of the two.

Yes, judging by how he beat him, yes.

Your point? Exar was the superior out of him and Ulic, and they had to send 8 of the top Jedi to capture him.

Whether it was 5 or 1 I am not sure. It was stated in the Rakatan temple.

It does not state he spent this time solely in the endeavor of capturing the star map, and even if it did, it's hardly relevant material for proving that Revan is intellectually superior to Exar Kun.

The evidence from the comics suggests that Exar was more of a brute than a mastermind. I doubt he would pick up skills as quickly as someone of superior intellect, in this case one such as Revan.

Since when? If anything, Exar gets props for bossing around a rare prodigy in Ulic. I don't see how he was simply relegated to being a brute. If anything, that impression comes from the fact that he is so strong, not that he's dumb.

And again, your evidence of proving Revan's intelligence > Exar's intelligence is nil. Learn to prove up or go home.

But the point about Revan hanging out with ancient Sith spirits, he was approached by Adjunta Pall, it is then safe to assume that other Sith Lords would have a approached a Jedi so sensitive in the force.

He was approached by Ajunta Pall? Does trying to jack his sword have anything to do with that?

Aleema and Satal were approached by Freedon Nadd, does that mean they are super sensitive and uber? Does that mean they were approached by other Sith Spirits?

Don't be ridiculous. Show me where the other sith spirits approached Revan or don't bother.

It does not matter anyways. Revan learned much from the dark side, but his strength waxed full as a Jedi, when he was with the light. As I stated before: “Revan was destined to return to the light, why would a Sith lord approach him?”

Wait wait, wtf is this?

First you argue that sith lords may have bothered to approach him en masse. But just in case I shoot that down (which I did), you give him a backup plan just in case where you argue the opposite? Stop being a Revan apologist.

Excuse me? I would treat his logic with less than a grain of dust. 10 year old Anakin made a simpleton trash droid with no firepower no nothing except the ability to talk to different desert folk in Tatooine.

He also built a podracer from spare parts. It's not like Anakin had a lot of resources either.

I can hardly compare anything between the two, except HK’s superior protocol ability.

Which is still outdone by a Massassi that levels a pissed off Jedi with his bare hands. And not to mention that Kun had an ARMY of Massassi.

Admit it gentleman, I am right, Revan is the superior Jedi by the Star Forge’s end.

When you offer no logical reasoning and proof? Please. We're supposed to give in to what now? Fanboy persuasion? Zephiel7's undying charisma? Revan's attractiveness as a female model? What now? You're the one being ridiculous. I ask for you to prove up, you don't. Hell, I ask for you to prove a point, and you even given a contradicting explanation.

Before KOTOR friend. He learned them before KOTOR,

Show me the transcript that states this. It does not state it. Hell, it does not state anything about the forms Revan learned. It states nothing until KotOR II when Traya says Revan learned from Tulak's holocron.

“In light of the situation”, guess who learned from the holocron of the best duelist? Darth Revan himself! Your attempt at dislodging my argument only strengthened it 😛.

Right... is that why you've failed to prove that Revan mastered the holocron to anywhere near the effectiveness of Tulak Hord? Can you even prove that Tulak Hord is definitively the best duelist in the galaxy? Oops, guess not.

The "ancient Sith" didn't use lightsabers. After Naga Sadow, the Ancient Sith were "hunted the brink of extinction." So wait? Is Tulak Hord the greatest of his 3 person order or something?

I do not find this analogy particularly relevant against my arguments. I was stating that Revan had greater mastery over force forms than even Kreia, simply because she said so herself. I suggest you come up with a better analogy, friend.

Which "force forms"? When did Revan ever demonstrate battle meditation, for example?

Again I stated that Revan’s defeating of an army of dark Jedi was canon. Kreia even stated ."Revan was power. Staring into his eyes was like staring into the heart of the Force. Even then, you could see the Jedi he would slay etched on his soul."

And this proves that Revan destroyed all the Dark Jedi how?

Canonically, he beat Malak. That's it. Prove up or shut up.

The time period he spent searching for the Star maps during Malak’s reign is irrelevant. He had the help from the “visions” shared between himself and Bastilla. The exact number of years I don’t know. What I was getting at though was how the Rakatan’s stated the majority of time spent by Revan was in searching for the star maps.

How is time period irrelevant? You were just attempting to use it to argue that Revan was more intelligent than Exar.

This is absolutely false. I am now unsure of how much you know about Revan, and whether or not I should disregard the rest of your arguments with respect to Revan. Revan when searching for the star maps (before KOTOR) visited Korriban. When you speak to the spirit of Ajunta Pall, he says that he was visited by you before. There, evidence that he visited the tombs before KOTOR.

Did not notice the part where he mentions "before KotoR"? Oops. Reading comprehension my friend.

Whether or not Kun learned more is inconclusive. Even if, the amount learned is not always as important as the application of what is learned. If I memorize a lot before a physics test, it means nothing. If I write the test with a clear method on how to apply what I learned, that is what characterizes success from failure. Revan has that advantage over Kun.

Where does Revan have that advantage? PROVE IT. You can't. We can easily prove where Kun has demonstrated force mastery.

Luke considered the strongest Jedi ever, was never completely trained by any Jedi master.

And how does one anecdotal case from 4000 years later have anything to do with proving jack shit for Revan? Oh wait... it doesn't.

cont...

cont...

HK-47 was one of Revan’s top assassin’s before and after the Mandalorian Wars. He undoubtedly had to kill a few Jedi, otherwise he would be no different from the crony droids Revan had in his army.

First off, how is HK-47 going to sway the fight in Revan's favor? Second off, how can you prove that HK-47 was more effective than an army of Massassi, which among them, one of them leveled a Jedi? How can you prove that it takes more brainpower? Again, you can not. You have no proof, you are just making assumptions based on inconclusive "evidence" that is suspect to begin with. Sorry, as much as your life would be incomplete without Revan winning, he's not beating Exar.

Refer again to previous point, and enter quote from Kreia.

A worthy attempt but not going to cut it. Revan still beats old Exar

Kreia never states, "well zOMG, Revan beat all the Dark Jedi!" He mentioned he would slay Jedi. Yes, he did slay Jedi. Never did it mention that he would slay "armies of Jedi." That quote could easily refer to 2 people.

And man, crowning yourself the victor of an argument after a fallacy-laden post is never a good thing to do. You've been 86'd, QED.

I do have canonical evidence friend, read the above posts. Also the polls would seem to say otherwise.

What canonical evidence? Kreia? The person who proclaimed Revan was the best, and the subsequently goes and brags about the Exile? The woman who never saw Tulak Hord duel OR has his holocron?

That's less canonical than Vodo saying Kun was his best student, and he has 600 years to back it up.

And using appeal to majority logical fallacy? Typical for someone who can type up an argument like that.

PWNT.

Originally posted by calvin44
PWNT.

SORGO QUOTED ME!!!!
I feel sooo cool. (really)

Since this was written just for me:

Originally posted by zephiel7
Before KOTOR friend. He learned them before KOTOR,

Proof ? In KotoR Revan was how old ? In his 30s at max. So he has learned more than Mace Windu, a lightsaber prodigy in his 50s, when he was in his mid-late 20s especially when Jedi in his time weren't trained from childhood on ? Allright. Any proof for this ? No ? Thanks.

It matters not. Although you do not state evidence that the best lightsabre duelist did not master all seven forms of lightsabre combat I will ignore it.

“In light of the situation”, guess who learned from the holocron of the best duelist? Darth Revan himself! Your attempt at dislodging my argument only strengthened it 😛.

May I tell you that you're a bad excuse for a debater ? Kreia told us that Tulak created his own unique form and stored the knowledge about that form in his holocron. Nothing more, nothing less. So all that Revan could have learned from Hord's holocron would be Hord's form.

And for the "best duellist" stuff. Notice how Kreia said the best Ancient Sith Lord with a lightsaber. This makes him virtually compareable to nobody since all other known Ancient Sith Lords used Sith Swords and not lightsabers. And since he makes "all people from our [Kreia's] time" look like "children fighting each other with toys" - and you seem to thrust all of Kreia's statements - this suggests that the "all" includes herself, Revan and the Exile but not Exar Kun.

I do not find this analogy particularly relevant against my arguments. I was stating that Revan had greater mastery over force forms than even Kreia, simply because she said so herself. I suggest you come up with a better analogy, friend.

Notice how the force forms are no part of KotoR I. Then just think about the fact that Revan appears to be a Jedi Guardian where Kreia seems to be a Jedi Consular meaning she's the greater force user but the weaker duellist. You can't simply have it all.

Again I stated that Revan’s defeating of an army of dark Jedi was canon. Kreia even stated .[I]"Revan was power. Staring into his eyes was like staring into the heart of the Force. Even then, you could see the Jedi he would slay etched on his soul."

Again you're just throwing BS into the thread. Revan defeating an army of dark Jedi is not canon. And Kreia's statement makes it clear: The Jedi he would slay. Notice how this is said by Kreia who hasn't seen Revan for a long time (at least not from the devastation of Malachor V in the end of the Mandalorian Wars on) and how she says "Jedi" where "Dark Jedi" would be called "Sith" in this case. So she's referring to the Jedi Civil war and not to the things Revan did during KotoR.

The time period he spent searching for the Star maps during Malak’s reign is irrelevant. He had the help from the “visions” shared between himself and Bastilla. The exact number of years I don’t know. What I was getting at though was how the Rakatan’s stated the majority of time spent by Revan was in searching for the star maps.

And it's nice that nobody else has noticed the Rakatan stating something like that - maybe because they can't know how much time Revan did spent searching for the Star Forge maps because he lied to them the entire time.

Next time you play KotoR you better pay more attention to the cutscenes. When we see Revan and Malak on Dantooine he's already wearing his face mask which means that it is beyond the Mandalorian Wars and he has used the Star Forge from the start of the Jedi Civil War on meaning he found the maps in less than a year.

This is absolutely false. I am now unsure of how much you know about Revan, and whether or not I should disregard the rest of your arguments with respect to Revan. Revan when searching for the star maps (before KOTOR) visited Korriban. When you speak to the spirit of Ajunta Pall, he says that he was visited by you before. There, evidence that he visited the tombs before KOTOR.

Notice how Ajunta Pall can't remember anything and surely not Revan because Revan was wearing a face mask during his entire search for the Star Maps. Also notice how Revan didn't remove anything from the tombs which he would surely have done if he did visit them before.

Whether or not Kun learned more is inconclusive. Even if, the amount learned is not always as important as the application of what is learned. If I memorize a lot before a physics test, it means nothing. If I write the test with a clear method on how to apply what I learned, that is what characterizes success from failure. Revan has that advantage over Kun. Luke considered the strongest Jedi ever, was never completely trained by any Jedi master.

Notice how Kun developed Sith alchemy and Sith magic skills that are beyond everything Revan has shown (freezing the entire Senate, creating an amulet similar to the one Sadow had created), created his own lightsaber form and designed his own - unique - weapon. Notice how he let his Massasi built temples able to focus force powers and notice how he used a ritual to seperate his spirit from is body to "run rampant throughout the cosmos" (only was stopped by the entire Jedi Order). Can you please remind me where Revan has shown greater "application" of knowledge ?

HK-47 was one of Revan’s top assassin’s before and after the Mandalorian Wars. He undoubtedly had to kill a few Jedi, otherwise he would be no different from the crony droids Revan had in his army.

Before the Mandalorian Wars ? It's nice how Revan used assasination droids before he was even a Jedi Knight...
Apart from this the sources just say that he "might have used" HK-47 to "assasinate political leaders of star systems to create trouble". So there is no evidence for HK-47 killing Jedi. And even if he did: The Massassi in the comics faces a Jedi with a lightsaber with bare hands and wins the fight. If HK-47 can reproduce that I would be impressed.

Refer again to previous point, and enter quote from Kreia.

Refer again to previous answer on the quote from Kreia and see how wrong you are.

A worthy attempt but not going to cut it. Revan still beats old Exar

A nice try to rival Lightsnake for the "Fanboy of the Month" title. A few more posts like this and you may beat him. And "old Exar" ? You didn't notice that Kun would be younger / same age compared to Revan ? 😉

First of all, to all posters I do have evidence, if you accuse me of being a Revan fanboy, than I can just as easily conclude that you are all Exar fanboys since you choose not to look at my evidence declaring Revan at least the formers equal.

1) He did learn the Holocron, it was a holocron that DID NOT contain Sith Sword techniques

Ok you accuse me of not providing evidence when it is clearly in my post. How are you sure that Tulak¡¦s holocron does not contain sith sword techniques? It seems you are the one bsing now. Revan visited the tomb and obviously got hold of the holocron containing Tulak¡¦s sword techniques.

2) Since when does learning from someone make you the best duelist?

It certainly helps you become the best duelist. Combined with Revan¡¦s natural talents and his impressive feats at the star forge, it is quite plausible to conclude that he has become the best lightsabre duelist.

3) And I'll point out that you did not answer this question. Form VII is not even given mention in KotOR storyline

The answer was in my post! *sigh* I wish you would just read for once. Revan learned from Tulak Hord no? Do you get that? Have I lost you yet? Tulak Hord= big mean sith man who knows how to use swords, he is bigger and stronger than all other big mean sith men when using sword.

That means that he knows all seven forms of combat.

Revan learned from his holocron. This means Revan is biggest strongest sith man. You understand? That a boy.

4) Canon policy does not change. You can't say "well I believe Revan is god, therefore he is." Canon never says he mastered all seven forms, or that he was the greatest lightsaber duelist of all time

I didn¡¦t say Revan is the be all and end all. I said by the Star Forge¡¦s end, he is a tad bit stronger than Exar. The evidence is blazing obvious that he mastered all seven forms, and that he was the greatest lightsaber duelist of all time

5) And again, you simply have Kreia's word for it, instead of anything that's concrete in the first place.

Kreia was around during Exar Kun. She is old enough to make comparisons because she has seen big buff and tuff Jedi/Sith. I redirect you to my quote: P.

6) Yes, judging by how he beat him, yes.

You misinterpret genius. By between the two, I meant Kreia and Revan.

7) It does not state he spent this time solely in the endeavor of capturing the star map

It did friend, it did. Play the game and pay attention instead of fantasizing about Exar. (j/k)

8) And again, your evidence of proving Revan's intelligence > Exar's intelligence is nil

Oh really? HOW ABOUT ALL THE POSTS I MADE BEFORE THIS! Look, I respect Exar, and you don¡¦t seem to be a completely irredeemable, but I would expect you to read all my posts before criticizing my evidence.

9) He was approached by Ajunta Pall? Does trying to jack his sword have anything to do with that?

Can¡¦t you read my other posts¡K I said Revan came to Korriban as the dark lord, and Ajunta Pall approached him then, when Revan was NOT jacking his sword.

10) First you argue that sith lords may have bothered to approach him en masse¡K you give him a backup plan just in case where you argue the opposite?

Again you misinterpret. I was stating that being approached by Sith Lords does not have any bearing on quality if you are bound to return to the light.

11) Which is still outdone by a Massassi that levels a pissed off Jedi with his bare hands. And not to mention that Kun had an ARMY of Massassi.

This argument has no relevancy since we are straying from the point. I will say though that HK-47 is the superior. Where the Massassi may have killed a simple Jedi, HK-47 has assassinated several Jedi.

12) When you offer no logical reasoning and proof? Please. We're supposed to give in to what now? Fanboy persuasion? Zephiel7's undying charisma? Revan's attractiveness as a female model? What now? You're the one being ridiculous. I ask for you to prove up, you don't. Hell, I ask for you to prove a point, and you even given a contradicting explanation.

You my friend are being too narrowminded to look at the facts and extrapolate all that Revan learned, and how much stronger he has grown since the Star Forge¡¦s end. You accuse me of being fanboy, when you quite clearly are biased towards Exar Kun. Btw, Revan was canonically male, friend; shows that you have no idea on what¡¦s canon and what¡¦s not.

13) Show me the transcript that states this. It does not state it. Hell, it does not state anything about the forms Revan learned. It states nothing until KotOR II when Traya says Revan learned from Tulak's holocron.

And I quote ¡§The answer was in my post! *sigh* I wish you people would just read for once. Revan learned from Tulak hord no? Do you get that? Have I lost you yet? Tulak Hord= big mean sith man who knows how to use swords, he is bigger and stronger than all other big mean sith men when using sword.

That means that he knows all seven forms of combat.

Revan learned from his holocron. This means Revan is biggest strongest sith man. You understand? That a boy.¡¨

14) Right... is that why you've failed to prove that Revan mastered the holocron to anywhere near the effectiveness of Tulak Hord? Can you even prove that Tulak Hord is definitively the best duelist in the galaxy?

Revan took the holocron and combined with his talent picked up the technique used by Tulak. Refer to my ¡§Revan¡¦s superior intellect posts.¡¨ I don¡¦t feel like retyping because you don¡¦t bother to go through my posts and extrapolate.

15) Which "force forms"? When did Revan ever demonstrate battle meditation, for example?

Before KOTOR! I keep telling you! He lost his entire memory as a Jedi in KOTOR and only be the end of the Star Forge did he remember everything.

16) And this proves that Revan destroyed all the Dark Jedi how?

¡§Even then, you could see the Jedi he would slay etched on his soul.¡¨ The dark Jedi was to what Kreia was referring to.

Also it¡¦s officially canon, ¡§Aboard the Star Forge, Revan almost single-handedly defeated an entire army of Sith and Dark Jedi, a testament to his power in the Force and mastery of lightsaber combat¡¨ „² Daniel Wallace (Star Wars: The New Essential Chronology)

17) You were just attempting to use it to argue that Revan was more intelligent than Exar

Yes but despite being 1 year or 5 years, the period spent to master sith secrets would essentially be the same.

18) Did not notice the part where he mentions "before KotoR"? Oops. Reading comprehension my friend

Guess what friend. I am saying that he did. Is that too complicated for you? 😛 Adjunta Pall recognizing Revan is evidence enough.

19) Where does Revan have that advantage? PROVE IT

Lets see¡K With his limited military knowledge, he took command of the Republic fleet during the Mandalorian Wars and literally won that war.

20) And how does one anecdotal case from 4000 years later have anything to do with proving jack shit for Revan?

I am saying that you do not have to be approached by ancient sith specters to be considered the greatest JEDI. Revan was canonically a JEDI.
J E D I

21) Second off, how can you prove that HK-47 was more effective?

Simple, his dark Jedi death count was higher. Have you even tried duking him out against a dark Jedi. I bet you haven¡¦t. Or you have and don¡¦t want to admit that the homicidal droid is at least as competent as an organic meatbag.

22) Kreia never states, "well zOMG, Revan beat all the Dark Jedi!"

Again refer above to quote by David Wallace.

I believe you have been PWNT as one of the posters said.

Oh yea, QED, if you even know what that means 😉

"May I tell you that you're a bad excuse for a debater ?"

Ad Hominem friend? I don't know whether you mean that or not. I wonder who's the bad excuse for a debater...

Read my above post friend, for your answers.

First of all, to all posters I do have evidence, if you accuse me of being a Revan fanboy, than I can just as easily conclude that you are all Exar fanboys since you choose not to look at my evidence declaring Revan at least the formers equal.

Let me start by putting your so-called evidence to shit.

Kreia says whoever has the Holocron is most likely dead. She also said the person who has it is not known.

And I didn't know Kreia's word was ZOMGCANON! even if she did say it.

Too bad she didn't.

Ok you accuse me of not providing evidence when it is clearly in my post. How are you sure that Tulak¡¦s holocron does not contain sith sword techniques? It seems you are the one bsing now. Revan visited the tomb and obviously got hold of the holocron containing Tulak¡¦s sword techniques.

Considering you came into this thread spreading false information about what Kreia said, It would be fair to call YOU the bullshitter. I'm tired of you Fanboys thinking you own this damn site. It's time for me to crush as much of you as I POSSIBLY CAN!

Funny: My game must have been glitched. I never recieved a Holocron from his tomb.

It certainly helps you become the best duelist. Combined with Revan¡¦s natural talents and his impressive feats at the star forge, it is quite plausible to conclude that he has become the best lightsabre duelist.

He also had friends with him and Jedi all over the ship helping him.

The answer was in my post! *sigh* I wish you would just read for once. Revan learned from Tulak Hord no? Do you get that? Have I lost you yet? Tulak Hord= big mean sith man who knows how to use swords, he is bigger and stronger than all other big mean sith men when using sword.

You're being silly now.

You have no proof backing up the fact that Tulak was the greatest duelist of all time considering we haven't even seen what he looks like, we don't know what style he uses and we do NOT know what he is capable of.

That means that he knows all seven forms of combat.

Revan learned from his holocron. This means Revan is biggest strongest sith man. You understand? That a boy.

What th...

You think that shitty little arrogant post is going to get through to anyone?

I am dismissing that post seeing as you have no proof that he learned from a Holocron.

I didn¡¦t say Revan is the be all and end all. I said by the Star Forge¡¦s end, he is a tad bit stronger than Exar. The evidence is blazing obvious that he mastered all seven forms, and that he was the greatest lightsaber duelist of all time

^ You're one of the biggest Fanboys on this website right now. You blow Lightsnake out of the water.

Kreia was around during Exar Kun. She is old enough to make comparisons because she has seen big buff and tuff Jedi/Sith. I redirect you to my quote: P.

Dismissed. Kreia didn't say Revan got Tulak's Holocron.

It did friend, it did. Play the game and pay attention instead of fantasizing about Exar. (j/k)

Go spew your hypocrisy at TF.N or some other site where members put up with Fanobyism.

Don't try it here. You will not last.

Oh really? HOW ABOUT ALL THE POSTS I MADE BEFORE THIS! Look, I respect Exar, and you don¡¦t seem to be a completely irredeemable, but I would expect you to read all my posts before criticizing my evidence.

I would expect you to produce a post containing evidence before you criticize everyone else.

More Hypocrisy from you.

Again you misinterpret. I was stating that being approached by Sith Lords does not have any bearing on quality if you are bound to return to the light.

Pseudo Intellect. Dismissed.

This argument has no relevancy since we are straying from the point. I will say though that HK-47 is the superior. Where the Massassi may have killed a simple Jedi, HK-47 has assassinated several Jedi.

Whoa.... HK-47 did what? What Jedi? What Jedi did he slaughter? And if so, how the hell could you determine who they are and their abilities? They could have all been Padawans!

Assumptions? That doesn't cut it!

You my friend are being too narrowminded to look at the facts and extrapolate all that Revan learned, and how much stronger he has grown since the Star Forge¡¦s end. You accuse me of being fanboy, when you quite clearly are biased towards Exar Kun. Btw, Revan was canonically male, friend; shows that you have no idea on what¡¦s canon and what¡¦s not.

And I quote ¡§The answer was in my post! *sigh* I wish you people would just read for once. Revan learned from Tulak hord no? Do you get that? Have I lost you yet? Tulak Hord= big mean sith man who knows how to use swords, he is bigger and stronger than all other big mean sith men when using sword.

You're repeating yourself. How desperate of you.

Considering I already replied to this, scroll up for my answer.

That means that he knows all seven forms of combat.

Revan learned from his holocron. This means Revan is biggest strongest sith man. You understand? That a boy.¡¨

You repeat yourself yet again!

Scroll up for my answer for the first time you generate this crap from your fingertips.

Revan took the holocron and combined with his talent picked up the technique used by Tulak. Refer to my ¡§Revan¡¦s superior intellect posts.¡¨ I don¡¦t feel like retyping because you don¡¦t bother to go through my posts and extrapolate.

You've retyped twice and now you don't feel like doing it again? You just contradicted yourself! That's another point for you.

This is like the ninth time you're telling everyone to refer to your idiotic post in which we already dismissed as complete and utter SHIT!

Before KOTOR! I keep telling you! He lost his entire memory as a Jedi in KOTOR and only be the end of the Star Forge did he remember everything.

He still didn't display Battle Meditation. So... Your proof is because he gained his memory back, he automatically knows Battle Meditation from his past EVEN when we didn't get to see his past? More flawed assumptions.

¡§Even then, you could see the Jedi he would slay etched on his soul.¡¨ The dark Jedi was to what Kreia was referring to.

That doesn't tell us he slayed a whole shitload of Jedi. For all we know, that could mean like three or four Jedi.

Also it¡¦s officially canon, ¡§Aboard the Star Forge, Revan almost single-handedly defeated an entire army of Sith and Dark Jedi, a testament to his power in the Force and mastery of lightsaber combat¡¨ „² Daniel Wallace (Star Wars: The New Essential Chronology)

Funny, when I looked that quote up, it was in Wikipedia under Revan's profile.

And it wasn't quoted from the N.E.C.

This means it's directly from Wikipedia and not from the book.

And we all know about the editable Wikipedia.

That isn't proof. Dismissed.

Yes but despite being 1 year or 5 years, the period spent to master sith secrets would essentially be the same.

No it wouldn't! For all you know, it could take years! Don't use assumptions for your awful comparisons!

Guess what friend. I am saying that he did. Is that too complicated for you? 😛 Adjunta Pall recognizing Revan is evidence enough.

Ajunta Pall wanted to be released. It didn't matter who it was. More crap from you.

Lets see¡K With his limited military knowledge, he took command of the Republic fleet during the Mandalorian Wars and literally won that war.

We've seen Sith Lords in SW history win more wars than that so what does that prove? Hell, Exar won more wars than that!

Simple, his dark Jedi death count was higher. Have you even tried duking him out against a dark Jedi. I bet you haven¡¦t. Or you have and don¡¦t want to admit that the homicidal droid is at least as competent as an organic meatbag.

Is it Canonical that he even fights a single Force User in KOTOR? I mean.... You're all about Canonical evidence right? PROVIDE SOME!

Again refer above to quote by David Wallace.

That's a Wikipedia quote.

I believe you have been PWNT as one of the posters said.

Try again, Rookie.

You haven't pwned shit.

Except for yourself, of course.

Originally posted by zephiel7
First of all, to all posters I do have evidence, if you accuse me of being a Revan fanboy, than I can just as easily conclude that you are all Exar fanboys since you choose not to look at my evidence declaring Revan at least the formers equal.

First of all, to you: Learn to destinquish between "evidence" and "your personal opinion" and "assumptions".

Ok you accuse me of not providing evidence when it is clearly in my post. How are you sure that Tulak¡¦s holocron does not contain sith sword techniques? It seems you are the one bsing now. Revan visited the tomb and obviously got hold of the holocron containing Tulak¡¦s sword techniques.

Again...just for you. Kreia states the holocron contains Tulak Hord's personal lightsaber form. Where did you hear "all known forms" or "Sith Sword fighting styles" ?

It certainly helps you become the best duelist. Combined with Revan¡¦s natural talents and his impressive feats at the star forge, it is quite plausible to conclude that he has become the best lightsabre duelist.

No. It's plausible to conclude that he became the best lightsaber duellist with the possible exceptions: Tulak Hord himself, Exar Kun, Ulic Quel-Droma (virtually all people that lived between the end of the Great Hyperspace War and the rise of Revan).

The answer was in my post! *sigh* I wish you would just read for once. Revan learned from Tulak Hord no? Do you get that? Have I lost you yet? Tulak Hord= big mean sith man who knows how to use swords, he is bigger and stronger than all other big mean sith men when using sword.

That means that he knows all seven forms of combat.

Revan learned from his holocron. This means Revan is biggest strongest sith man. You understand? That a boy.

And again: Since Tulak Hord never stored knowledge about all forms in his holocron....how can Revan than archieve the knowledge through that holocron ? And how would a Sith (Hord) have knowledge about lightsaber styles that the Jedi invented after the Dark Jedi went to the Sith Empire ?

I didn¡¦t say Revan is the be all and end all. I said by the Star Forge¡¦s end, he is a tad bit stronger than Exar. The evidence is blazing obvious that he mastered all seven forms, and that he was the greatest lightsaber duelist of all time

The only thing that is obvious is that Exar had produced force feats far beyond Revan and this is no "just lightsaber battle" in which Kun still would fight with a unique weapon and a unique style.

Kreia was around during Exar Kun. She is old enough to make comparisons because she has seen big buff and tuff Jedi/Sith. I redirect you to my quote: P.

Where did she compare Revan to Kun ?

It did friend, it did. Play the game and pay attention instead of fantasizing about Exar. (j/k)

Read my last post and I totally pwned your rediculous idea that Revan searched YEARS for the star maps. And go read the TOTJ comics and after that tell me that Revan > Exar.

Oh really? HOW ABOUT ALL THE POSTS I MADE BEFORE THIS! Look, I respect Exar, and you don¡¦t seem to be a completely irredeemable, but I would expect you to read all my posts before criticizing my evidence.

Evidence you haven't offered ? Great. Lies ? Great.

Can¡¦t you read my other posts¡K I said Revan came to Korriban as the dark lord, and Ajunta Pall approached him then, when Revan was NOT jacking his sword.

Where was the proof for this again ? It seems so that he hasn't visited Ajunta's tomb before because Revan possibly won't leave Ajunta's sword there. And Ajunta pall "approaching" Revan is nothing compared to Ragnos "the most powerful of the most powerful" and unquestioned leader in the golden age of the ancient Sith Empire telling Kun that he will bring a new Golden Age of the Sith and personally declare him the Dark Lord.

This argument has no relevancy since we are straying from the point. I will say though that HK-47 is the superior. Where the Massassi may have killed a simple Jedi, HK-47 has assassinated several Jedi.

Dodging points seems to be fun: The massassi level the Jedi with bare hands and was fighting against a lightsaber opponent. HK-47 assassinated people (and you have no proof that he killed ONE SINGLE JEDI) using weapons. And somehow HK-47 is more impressive ? WTF ?

You my friend are being too narrowminded to look at the facts and extrapolate all that Revan learned, and how much stronger he has grown since the Star Forge¡¦s end. You accuse me of being fanboy, when you quite clearly are biased towards Exar Kun. Btw, Revan was canonically male, friend; shows that you have no idea on what¡¦s canon and what¡¦s not.

Read my last post, activate your brain, post again...

¡§Even then, you could see the Jedi he would slay etched on his soul.¡¨ The dark Jedi was to what Kreia was referring to.

READ MY LAST POST AND SCREW THAT POINT. She wasn't talking about the Dark Jedi on the Star Forge but the Jedi during the Jedi Civil war. All "Dark Jedi" belonged to the Sith and therefore she would call them Sith and not "Jedi".

Simple, his dark Jedi death count was higher. Have you even tried duking him out against a dark Jedi. I bet you haven¡¦t. Or you have and don¡¦t want to admit that the homicidal droid is at least as competent as an organic meatbag.

Canon Jedi death count for HK-47: ZERO, NULL, NIENTE, NADA. Null is higher than what ? -1 ? OK. The Massassi therefore created a living Jedi which is greater than everything HK-47 is able to do. 🙄

Oh yea, QED, if you even know what that means 😉

And you have been FUBARed, if you even know what that means.

Originally posted by zephiel7
I believe you have been PWNT as one of the posters said.

Oh yea, QED, if you even know what that means 😉

Ok... these two are both pretty good... so I'm just going to flip a coin... heads its kun, tails its revan... *flips coin* ok heads... Kun...

First of all, to all posters I do have evidence, if you accuse me of being a Revan fanboy, than I can just as easily conclude that you are all Exar fanboys since you choose not to look at my evidence declaring Revan at least the formers equal.

Yes, please please accuse us of being fanboys when we are providing canonical narration (not speech), on panel sources (a la the comics) and actual facts, instead of assumptions.

Please do it, then we can just discard your credibility altogether.

Ok you accuse me of not providing evidence when it is clearly in my post. How are you sure that Tulak¡¦s holocron does not contain sith sword techniques? It seems you are the one bsing now. Revan visited the tomb and obviously got hold of the holocron containing Tulak¡¦s sword techniques.

Dude. Do you know what burden of proof means? You have to prove a positive, it's logical fallacy asking for us to prove a negative.

Nowhere does it state Tulak Hord even used a Sith Sword. The only thing we know about him is that he used a "lightsaber" and was supposedly "the best" of the "ancient Sith" with it when all the ancient Sith used sith swords, which are NOT lightsabers. Got that through your skull? Thanks.

It certainly helps you become the best duelist. Combined with Revan¡¦s natural talents and his impressive feats at the star forge, it is quite plausible to conclude that he has become the best lightsabre duelist.

The "natural talent" you failed to prove was superior to Kun's?

And yes, it may help, but it's not conclusive. Not everyone who learns from a holocron of a "powerful" (according to Kreia) master doesn't become a powerful individual themselves. You have to prove and establish he has, not assume he has. Got it?

The answer was in my post! *sigh* I wish you would just read for once. Revan learned from Tulak Hord no? Do you get that? Have I lost you yet? Tulak Hord= big mean sith man who knows how to use swords, he is bigger and stronger than all other big mean sith men when using sword.

Is that why Traya says "lightsaber," not "sword"?

You're just dodging the question because you have no answer. When do we even know that Tulak Hord was a damn "big sith man"? We have one line from one person about him. Tulak Hord could have been a 4 foot tall woman for all we know.

That means that he knows all seven forms of combat.

No it doesn't. How does being the best in lightsaber dueling = knowing all seven forms? False conclusion, logical fallacy.

Dooku was arguably the best lightsaber dueler, he mastered one form to our knowledge: Makashi. Tulak invented a form, it was not stated that he knew all seven. All your sighing and acting aloof won't win you that debate.

I didn¡¦t say Revan is the be all and end all. I said by the Star Forge¡¦s end, he is a tad bit stronger than Exar. The evidence is blazing obvious that he mastered all seven forms, and that he was the greatest lightsaber duelist of all time

"The greatest lightsaber duelist of all time"? I would like to see this argument, not unfounded hypotheticals such as "well he learned from Tulak" (how does that make him superior to Tulak again?) or that "he mastered all seven forms" (when was this mentioned).

Guess what, it's not mentioned. So stop talking out your arse.

Kreia was around during Exar Kun. She is old enough to make comparisons because she has seen big buff and tuff Jedi/Sith. I redirect you to my quote: P.

And never did she say Revan was stronger than Kun, now did she? Where's this proof again? Oh wait, more talking out your ass.

You misinterpret genius. By between the two, I meant Kreia and Revan.

Again, Kreia is a Jedi Consular, where was it established Revan had superior force powers? Uhm... nowhere?

It did friend, it did. Play the game and pay attention instead of fantasizing about Exar. (j/k)

You're the one fantacizing about Revan instead of playing the game. The dynamics never mentioned it took 5 years of solely searching for the star map and doing nothing else. Stop using your gameplay experience as fact.

Oh really? HOW ABOUT ALL THE POSTS I MADE BEFORE THIS! Look, I respect Exar, and you don¡¦t seem to be a completely irredeemable, but I would expect you to read all my posts before criticizing my evidence.

I said prove.

Going "zOMG Revan built HK-47" is not proving he's smarter than Exar Kun. READ HOW WE DEBUNKD THAT WORTHLESS ARGUMENT.

Can¡¦t you read my other posts¡K I said Revan came to Korriban as the dark lord, and Ajunta Pall approached him then, when Revan was NOT jacking his sword.

You mean the confused spirit without his memories? He taught him anything? And no, Ajunta Pall never even gave Revan a taste of his power unless he tries to jack his sword.

Again you misinterpret. I was stating that being approached by Sith Lords does not have any bearing on quality if you are bound to return to the light.

Then you failed to counter the argument. Kun was practically baptized by Ragnos himself, "the most powerful of the most powerful." He learned and encounted the teachings of various other sith whose powers made those of Revan's time look like "children" (according to Kreia herself).

Either you contradicted yourself, or you admitted that you have no counter for the argument besides fanboyism. Good job.

This argument has no relevancy since we are straying from the point. I will say though that HK-47 is the superior. Where the Massassi may have killed a simple Jedi, HK-47 has assassinated several Jedi.

Nowhere is it shown how many Jedi HK-47 assassinated, or how he did it. Considering HK-47 is an assassin droid, I don't put its battle prowess anywhere near a single Massassi leveling a pissed off Jedi. Especially since Kun had an army of massassi that he used sith alchemy on.

You my friend are being too narrowminded to look at the facts and extrapolate all that Revan learned, and how much stronger he has grown since the Star Forge¡¦s end. You accuse me of being fanboy, when you quite clearly are biased towards Exar Kun. Btw, Revan was canonically male, friend; shows that you have no idea on what¡¦s canon and what¡¦s not.

Did I say Revan was female?

Oh wait no, I was making a facetious remark about the model, aka the sprite, got it?

Where was I clearly biased. I ask for you to prove up, you can't. That's not being biased, that's asking for facts, which you fail to give besides assumptions.

And I quote ¡§The answer was in my post! *sigh* I wish you people would just read for once. Revan learned from Tulak hord no? Do you get that? Have I lost you yet? Tulak Hord= big mean sith man who knows how to use swords, he is bigger and stronger than all other big mean sith men when using sword.

Again, lack of evidence that he is even comparable to Tulak Hord. Question: does everyone who learns from a master end up becoming superior to the master?

Also, how do you explain how none of the known Ancient Sith used lightsabers at all? Oh wait, you can't. You just dodge the point.

Revan took the holocron and combined with his talent picked up the technique used by Tulak. Refer to my ¡§Revan¡¦s superior intellect posts.¡¨ I don¡¦t feel like retyping because you don¡¦t bother to go through my posts and extrapolate.

What points? The ones that IKC shot down or the ones that about 3 or 4 people shot down? You have nothing, post a logically coherent and factually backed argument or don't bother.

Before KOTOR! I keep telling you! He lost his entire memory as a Jedi in KOTOR and only be the end of the Star Forge did he remember everything.

It was never mentioned what force forms he knew before KotOR. I suggest you actually play the game.

¡§Even then, you could see the Jedi he would slay etched on his soul.¡¨ The dark Jedi was to what Kreia was referring to.

That's bullshit. Revan participated in the Jedi civil war, he slew Malak, he beat Mandalore, Echani, got Pall's sword, Tulak's Holocron, and killed the Tarentaks. That's the only confirmation we have on Revan. Read, only non-gameplay canon confirmation. Do you need to the damn canon policy to get that through your head?

Also it¡¦s officially canon, ¡§Aboard the Star Forge, Revan almost single-handedly defeated an entire army of Sith and Dark Jedi, a testament to his power in the Force and mastery of lightsaber combat¡¨ „² Daniel Wallace (Star Wars: The New Essential Chronology)

First off, chronolgy can not create canon. Secondly, I have the chronology, give me the page numbers. The only place I recall that post showing up is Wikipedia, which anyone can edit.

Yes but despite being 1 year or 5 years, the period spent to master sith secrets would essentially be the same.

And there's nothing to suggest he mastered more than Kun. Kun accomplished more in building his own sith artifacts, creating his own lightsaber style that no one ever figured out, killing the de facto master of the entire Jedi order in combat, having numerous Jedi assassinated, instakilling another Jedi with a wave of his hand, bringing down a ship with another wave of his hand, and building numerous temples with his army of massassi. Revan compares how?

Guess what friend. I am saying that he did. Is that too complicated for you? 😛 Adjunta Pall recognizing Revan is evidence enough.

Too bad your word without evidence is about as meaningful as an informercial with Mr. Rogers. Prove up. Is that too deep for you? Do you know what "proof" means?

You haven't established a thing. Everything you've said has been shot down. Hell, even Calvin, who hasn't posted a single argument, can see how badly you've been absolutely destroyed. Keep thinking you've won, naivete is great!

okay, this really long post/bashing is getting anoying... any perticular reason you started doing it?