Hamas Victory

Originally posted by Ushgarak
I will remind people that Hitler's Government was elected.

Whilst being elected is one important prerequisite for good government that can be dealth with, it is NOT an all-encompassing concept that warrants acceptaance by the international community.

Hamas is a vicious and evil organisation that is condemned as a terrorist group by both US and EU; there is no question of any one agenda here, paitning them out simply because they are opponents. Hamas ARE evil, pure and simple.

If they do not renounce violence immediately, and so no give up their recently re-stated policy that Israel has no right to exist, then it is not only the right but also the moral duty of other nations to shun them, and perform actions like cutting off funding.

You do not accept such obviously evil regimes simply on the basis of an election. There are other areas to consider.

I will remoind you that Hitler's Government never actually had the majority. Besides that the system was flawed.

Why are the people that lost their country because of Israel not allowed to state that Israel has no right to exist anyways?

It was still democractically elected. Canada's current govenrment doesn't have a majority- you going to discount it as well?

And because stating it has no right to exist is stating that you will destroy it, as indeed Hamas wishes to do. As they do this by means of terrorist warfare, it should be pretty freaking darn obvious that this is WRONG.

Israel DOES have a right to exist- the UN said so and that is the only arbitrator we have. Any Government committed to destroying Israel should be shunned- and one committed to doing it by violent means should be taken down.

Originally posted by finti
do they claim and take credit for their actions like Hamas does , still dont blow up market places, buses, clubs, restaurants filled with civilians

Originally posted by Ushgarak
It was still democractically elected. Canada's current govenrment doesn't have a majority- you going to discount it as well?

And because stating it has no right to exist is stating that you will destroy it, as indeed Hamas wishes to do. As they do this by means of terrorist warfare, it should be pretty freaking darn obvious that this is WRONG.

Israel DOES have a right to exist- the UN said so and that is the only arbitrator we have. Any Government committed to destroying Israel should be shunned- and one committed to doing it by violent means should be taken down.

If it starts persecuting people and fkes a majority by excluding certain political parties.....perhaps.

1. Just generally stating that something shouldn't exist isn't equal to wanting to destroy it (It is in this case though)
2. Now that they are a government it doesn't need to be terrorist anymore...they can start a real war....although some might argue that Isrrael kind of started it by taking their country.

How come Palestine doesn't have a right to exist then? Sorry if the UN is hypocritical no one needs to submit to it. That's just the kind of thinking that made it possible fopr Hitler to do what he did.

Why are the people that lost their country because of Israel not allowed to state that Israel has no right to exist anyways?

Originally posted by finti
they can state it all they want as a non governmential part, but not when you are in a parliamentary position that would be the same as declearing war

Not really. And if it is taken that way it's not the fault of the Hamas. If they actually declare war or attack Israel then that would be war. Stating that Israel has no right to exist, since...well it just exists by opressing others, is a valid argument.

Originally posted by Bardock42
If it starts persecuting people and fkes a majority by excluding certain political parties.....perhaps.

1. Just generally stating that something shouldn't exist isn't equal to wanting to destroy it (It is in this case though)
2. Now that they are a government it doesn't need to be terrorist anymore...they can start a real war....although some might argue that Isrrael kind of started it by taking their country.

How come Palestine doesn't have a right to exist then? Sorry if the UN is hypocritical no one needs to submit to it. That's just the kind of thinking that made it possible fopr Hitler to do what he did.

It's too late for that kind of thinking. For better or worse, the UN specifically created Israel where it is and actively put into process the concept of all Jews going there to form a nation of their own. They were told they could do it by the oinly body qualified to make such a declaration, and they did. No-one has any right holding that against them.

After all, look back in history, and who the hell isn't sitting on stolen land? The entire of the Americas is stolen, for a start.

Life doesn't work like that. We have rules and laws and arbitrations that set the limits of self-determination. They are in favour of Israel.

If you think that situation is immoral, fair enough, but if you think it is any more moral to try and destroy Israel, then... well, a person thinking that is a fool. There is non other way to resolve the issue if you think the land is stolen... and so therefore, tough. The Celts can't have Britain back either. This is how life goes.

Hitler did what he did because there were NO effective laws. Now there are, and they were born specifcally because of what he did, and all western countries helped create them, and now they must be stood by.

So once more. Hamas is evil, it is universally condemned by civilised nations, and it MUST drop its commitment to terrorism immediately if it ever wants to have relations with the international community- and that is only right and proper.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
And because stating it has no right to exist is stating that you will destroy it, as indeed Hamas wishes to do. As they do this by means of terrorist warfare, it should be pretty freaking darn obvious that this is WRONG.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Not really. And if it is taken that way it's not the fault of the Hamas. If they actually declare war or attack Israel then that would be war. Stating that Israel has no right to exist, since...well it just exists by opressing others, is a valid argument.

That is fantasically naive.

First of all, if stated by Government policy, then it IS a statement of official purpose. You must have a sense of responsibility in Government; stating a legal nation has no right to exist is the opposite of that.

Secondly, in the situation it is incitement to terrorism, pure and simple.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
The old saying goes "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." How applicable that is to today's world I don't know. But obviously to at least some Palestinians, as seen by the outcome of this election, Hamas is seen as an entity willing to fight for their rights to nationhood.

Well, it won't last. Hamas has been voted to ower almost by accident. But it's irrelevant anyway- if you vote for evil, don't expect favours from the rest of the world.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
It's too late for that kind of thinking. For better or worse, the UN specifically created Israel where it is and actively put into process the concept of all Jews going there to form a nation of their own. They were told they could do it by the oinly body qualified to make such a declaration, and they did. No-one has any right holding that against them.

After all, look back in history, and who the hell isn't sitting on stolen land? The entire of the Americas is stolen, for a start.

Life doesn't work like that. We have rules and laws and arbitrations that set the limits of self-determination. They are in favour of Israel.

If you think that situation is immoral, fair enough, but if you think it is any more moral to try and destroy Israel, then... well, a person thinking that is a fool. There is non other way to resolve the issue if you think the land is stolen... and so therefore, tough. The Celts can't have Britain back either. This is how life goes.

Hitler did what he did because there were NO effective laws. Now there are, and they were born specifcally because of what he did, and all western countries helped create them, and now they must be stood by.

So once more. Hamas is evil, it is universally condemned by civilised nations, and it MUST drop its commitment to terrorism immediately if it ever wants to have relations with the international community- and that is only right and proper.

Yeah of course..thing is that most of this a) didn't happen 50 years ago b) didn't happen by a self proclaimed World Government and c) doesn't still make millions of people live in horrible conditions
Oh, one might argue that it is also not accepted by the UN or even the US (I ean the Natives gor reparations..although no where near as much as har done). The Palestines are still opressed by the so called "Western CivilizatioN"§...that'S not fair as long as the Western Civilization Claims to operate according to Human Rights.

Who is this "We" you are refering to?

Oh, I am in no place to judge aboot moral and immoral....but you are argueing that what the "Terrorists" are now doingg is immoral while what Israel did isnpt. That is hypocritical.

But they seem wrong if a certain group of people is persecuted by them. Laws are not unchangable...maybe these need to change now.

Evil by whose judgment? Yours?

How glib. I wonder how you'd view it if Chelmsford, Essex was suddenly subverted for use by another people.

Not really. And if it is taken that way it's not the fault of the Hamas. If they actually declare war or attack Israel then that would be war. Stating that Israel has no right to exist, since...well it just exists by opressing others, is a valid argument.

The old saying goes "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." How applicable that is to today's world I don't know. But obviously to at least some Palestinians, as seen by the outcome of this election, Hamas is seen as an entity willing to fight for their rights to nationhood

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Well, it won't last. Hamas has been voted to ower almost by accident. But it's irrelevant anyway- if you vote for evil, don't expect favours from the rest of the world.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
That is fantasically naive.

First of all, if stated by Government policy, then it IS a statement of official purpose. You must have a sense of responsibility in Government; stating a legal nation has no right to exist is the opposite of that.

Secondly, in the situation it is incitement to terrorism, pure and simple.

Well sorry, maybe they don't take to the rules people creasted for them. They might jsut state what they believe opwnly. Let's be honest. Israel and the US are basically saying for years that Palastine has no right to exist.

Originally posted by finti
to say a nation has no right to exist in a parlimentary/govermental position is an act of war regardless reasons one have for the statement

yeah if they targeted military instalation instead of civilianc that would be so, as long as they attack innocent ones they aint no freedom fighters.

it's not evil..not anymore than your current Government...or mine for that matter

Israel and the US are basically saying for years that Palastine has no right to exist

Originally posted by Bardock42
Actually it isn't. that kind of thinking should be necessary now. The UN did some bullshit now they should deal with it (since they clai to operate on moral values)

Yeah of course..thing is that most of this a) didn't happen 50 years ago b) didn't happen by a self proclaimed World Government and c) doesn't still make millions of people live in horrible conditions
Oh, one might argue that it is also not accepted by the UN or even the US (I ean the Natives gor reparations..although no where near as much as har done). The Palestines are still opressed by the so called "Western CivilizatioN"§...that'S not fair as long as the Western Civilization Claims to operate according to Human Rights.

Who is this "We" you are refering to?

Oh, I am in no place to judge aboot moral and immoral....but you are argueing that what the "Terrorists" are now doingg is immoral while what Israel did isnpt. That is hypocritical.

But they seem wrong if a certain group of people is persecuted by them. Laws are not unchangable...maybe these need to change now.

Evil by whose judgment? Yours?

Actually, I would deny very strong it is hypocritical, and I think your ability to make moral judgments is seriously screwed up if you equate Israel with the terrorists that attack it.

50 years ago, 1000 years ago- irrelevant. It is done and irreversible, and most importantly, internationally legal.

The Palestinians are opprssed by the West? They are FUNDED by the west. You really should check your facts.

Evil by any sane judgment, Evil by international declaration. Simply evil. Anyone who has a problem with that, I think is a complete idiot.

-

"How glib. I wonder how you'd view it if Chelmsford, Essex was suddenly subverted for use by another people."

What a totally fatuous comparison. Try and find an even vaguely similar situation and it might be worth answering.

Originally posted by Bardock42
it's not evil..not anymore than your current Government...or mine for that matter.

That is a contemptible statement that has removed any respect I ever had for you.

My word, that is an actively immoral thing to say. You are seriously equating the morals of terrorists with modern western Government? I cannot understand how anyone can be so skewed.

Well maybe the rest of the world might take it that way...fact though is that it is not.

Hamas should start looking out for the Palestinians as a whole and not just their own jiihad agenda

Originally posted by finti
have your government targeted civilians for slaughter, like in a cramed bus, a market place full of people, a restaurant and so on

oh really and can you back up that claim too

The last government we had consisted of Radicals of the 70's so...yes. But that'S not the point. You are judging them on something they did before....they have to deal with the now. And there is no reason to demand anything of them. they are a Government like any other.

You are denying that the US does not accept Palastines claims for the region that Israel took from them?