Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
How about when relationships improve? That would be a good time I would say. Why, are you on rush to make these cartoons or something?
I seriously doubt relations with the Islamic world will ever improve. Study history. There has always been conflict between Muslims and non Muslims. Just look at the reaction a stupid cartoon is causing. Hundreds of thousands of Muslims rioting. That's not just a few extremeists. And all over what?
Originally posted by Darth_Erebus
Study history.
Good idea! Let's look at history. Shall we start with the 11th and 13th Century crusades agaisn't the muslims? Or shall we look at our Government support for Israel in the past. And our current state with the middle east with the war? Yeah, let's anger the muslims with funny cartoons. Whoah!
Let me clarify, the behavior of the extremist is NOT excusable. What they're doing is wrong. However, with the current status between Western nations and the Middle East is there a need for all of this?
Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Good idea! Let's look at history. Shall we start with the 11th and 13th Century crusades agaisn't the muslims? Or shall we look at our Government support for Israel in the past. And our current state with the middle east with the war? Yeah, let's anger the muslims with funny cartoons. Whoah!Let me clarify, the behavior of the extremist is NOT excusable. What they're doing is wrong. However, with the current status between Western nations and the Middle East is there a need for all of this?
I'm not saying the West is blameless by any stretch of the imagination. Everyone loves to harp about the crusades but what about Islamic raiders in the 700s and 800s who laid seige to Constantinople and extorted money to maintain the peace.
And as for the current situation with Israel...I fail to see why the entire Islamic world is up in arms over a tiny piece of land in Palestine. Less than .01% of the worlds Muslims are Palestinian and fewer than 10% are even Arabs. Yet the entire Islamic world would kill Israel in an instant if they could. Maybe because this is something governments and Religious leaders in Islamic countries can galvanize their populations with against the West to control them better?
I'm all for less interference in the affairs of Middle Eastern countries and I also support a palestinian state but neither is likely given that Moneyed interests in the US support Israel which doesn't want an Independant Palestinian state. Also, given the Corporate Oil giants influence on US politics means we won't be leaving The Middle East any time soon.
But this begs why such uproar over a stupid cartoon. Just look at some Muslims reaction to anyone who "insults" their religion. There was that Dutch filmmaker who was murdered just because he made a documentary about the place and treatment of women in Islamic countries.
Still, I don't think we should stop drawing cartoons, even offensive ones, just because members of some religion don't like it or we sacrifice freedoms that were hard won and are always under threat. This is our country. The danes have their country. Who are people in far away lands to tell either us or the Danes what, or what not, do draw? Think about it.
Frankly, I think this is absolutely the time, yes. To be cowed by their threats into silence is an abrogation of our freedoms. If people want to make such cartoons, then they should feel free to do so now as much as at any other time.
And likewise, everyone else should feel free to criticise them for it, much as would be done with the Katrina example above. But this isn't criticism- it is outright assault. It is an attempt to force silence, to muzzle; this goes far beyond simply declaring something inappropriate.
Outside the Danish embassy in London yesterday, placards read "Slay those who insult Islam" and "Behead the one who insults the prophet."
Faced with this sort of idiocy, I lose any sympathy I might have had for offence. I am actually very proud of Western society that in the face of that, the cartoons were re-printed (which, I will mention again, was only done BECAUSE of the extreme reaction, as a counter-thrust against it).
And I am sure plenty of Muslims will point out that such banners do not reflect the feelings of the majority. Well, fine, but nor did the cartoons represent the mainstram view of the Western world, so the fact there are death threats now against ANY Scandinavian in the Middle East, that the threatened boycott would hurt all Danish citizens and the attempts now to silence freedom of speech would detract from the rights of every person on the planet, I think it should be pointed out that targetting too widely is a bigger problem from Islam than against it.
And they let themselves be antagonised, and they burnt the Danish embassy.
The idea behind the caricatures was to spread the infamous 'Muslim = Terrorist' hearsay. Of course only the ignorant man on the street falls for that.
Not an insult to Muslims, but a provocation to generate these kind of violent protests and threatening placards.
Yes, at times if you provoke someone, you may get involved in a scuffle. Why run the risk of getting into a fight when you know that antagonising someone may kick-start it ?
Re: Insults to muslims or freedom of speech?
Originally posted by The Omega
Recently a large Danish newspaper (Jyllandsposten =The Jutland Post) published a series of drawings of the muslim prophet Muhammed.You can see some of them here http://www.uriasposten.net/index.php?p=2624
and here http://nyhederne.tv2.dk/baggrund/article.php?id=3293352These satirical drawings was a reaction to the fact, that no Danish artist wanted to illustrate a childrens book about Muhammeds life
According to Islam you may not make images of the prophet - so since Jyllandsposten decided to do so regardless, not only Danish but now also muslims from the rest of the world have reacted with dismay.
This is their perogative, if anyone offended Christian religious symbols or national symbols we'd see dismay and outcries as well.
The newspaper insisted, that the drawings were published as "a reaction to self-censorship, restrictions on freedom of speech, and injustice and murder on critics of islam, such as has happened in Holland."
Now Jyllandsposten is not the most liberal and tolerant of newspapers to say the least. It's full name is Morgenavisen Jyllandsposten (The Morning Paper The Jutland Post), which we often call Morgenfacisten Jyllandspesten (The morning fascist The Jutland Plague).
So their motivations might just as well have been to stir up intolerance between the muslim community in Denmark and "native" Danes.Things seemed to quiet down during the fall, until a religious party from Pakistan interferred and put out a reward on the heads of the artists.
Now many Middle Eastern countries are boycotting Danish goods, and I am trying to figure out if this is truly a religious or a politically motivated reaction.
The newspaper has NOW apologized...
What are your thoughts on this?Me? The west has boycotted many countries and regimes in the past over political issues. So Middle Eastern countries are in their right to boycott Danish goods. Should the paper have abstained from insulting muslims in the first place, since it seems to be their whole intend to begin with.
Should the Danish Prime Minister apologize?
Muslims going crazy and killing people over the smallest, dumbest shit? Unheard of!!
Originally posted by GCGA provocation should lead to criticism, protests, or even boycotts. But the placards that were being waved around in London went too far, and should have been stopped.
Yes, at times if you provoke someone, you may get involved in a scuffle. Why run the risk of getting into a fight when you know that antagonising someone may kick-start it ?
I think they crossed the line between protests and inciting violence. I'm shocked that the police didn't do anything about it.
Originally posted by Raz
A provocation should lead to criticism, protests, or even boycotts. But the placards that were being waved around in London went too far, and should have been stopped.I think they crossed the line between protests and inciting violence. I'm shocked that the police didn't do anything about it.
They can't.
If the police made any move to break up the protest, more violent protests would have been provoked.
the newspapers should have thought twice about before printing them cause there aint noo need to provoke someones faith. Its all fine with freedom of speech and freedom of the press but not to insult. Hell who would liked to see a mockery of something dare to them? no one.
The way of the protest over this though is beyond idiotic, its all good with a protest to let one know"hey we didnt care for that stuff you insulted us with it"
The things happening know can lead to a tight and explosive situation within the countries that printed the drawings too. People of muslim faith can be targeted just because their muslims, hell as of my country they might be 3 rd generation immigrants and stick with the faith of their forefathers and be hated for it just because of the faith they choose.
One cant target entire nation due to the printing of some drawings, but one cant target all faithful of a religion because of a bunch take it too far either....
Someone needs to go in and calm down the masses, dialogue must be set up between leaders of the muslim communities and the countries targeted by this rage.
Hell one of my neighbours is a muslim and he was provoked and insulted by the drawings, and I understand why he was it too, but he is just as provoked and insulted by the reaction by muslims too cause they burt his flag(he is a norwegian 3rd generation immigrant, Norwegian as good as any) So he kind of lost out on it twice, disgrace disrespect of his religion, then the same disgrace and disrespect to his countrys flag.....talk about beeing between the anvil and the sledgehammer.............
by the way killer sig you got there Raz
Well. Now The Danish embassy in Syria was burnt to the ground (along with the Swedish and Norwegian!!!?), and now the embassy in Lebanon is suffering the same fate.
This, however, is not a reaction to the drawings as such, but rumours that circulated saying that Danes would burn the Koran yesterday. Which no one did, although now some extreme right-wing nationalists just might go ahead and do JUST that.
WrathfulDwarf has a point here which I think is important to keep in mind. The West has antagonized arab (aka muslim) countries for ceturies. An argument that Palestine is a tiny peace of land is absurd. The point is, that Israel has more Un-resolutions against it than Iraq/Hussein ever had, and that Israel is practicing segregation and racism against arabs on a lareg scale. There were no Afghans on the planes on 9/11, yet Afghanistan was attacked, the Taliban (whom the West supported when the USSR invaded Afghanistan years ago) were attacked. Then Iraq and the Hussein-regime were attacked, after the West support him during the Iran-Iraq war.
It's got NOTHINg to do with religion - it's got everything to do with politics and control over certain areas (probably oil) in the world.
The danish government supports the wars in the Middle-east, so I suppose Denmark cannot claim to be an innocent victim. I think the reactions to these drawings is just "the final drop".
Yes, I think that in a secular state a newspaper has the right to print what it wants (under responsibility), the freedom of speech is important. That some nations react as they do is their perogative. Is it any better that Bush calls Iraq "evil"?
That's nonsense. The Taliban would have been attacked regardless of their religion- America was after the organisers, and they were in Afghanistan.
There is no point trying to rationalise the hate that Muslim extremists have for the West- that is based on nothing other than skewed Religious beliefs, and so this very much IS about religion.
Let's be absolutely clear- if you do not think the ones committing the bigger wrong in this area are the ones making the death threats and burning embassies to the ground, then you clearly have nomcommon sense or idea of proportion.
It's most certainly bugger all to do with Iraq, which was not a Muslim state when attacked.
Originally posted by Raz
A provocation should lead to criticism, protests, or even boycotts. But the placards that were being waved around in London went too far, and should have been stopped.I think they crossed the line between protests and inciting violence. I'm shocked that the police didn't do anything about it.
Yes all hate speak should be stopped!!!!!!!
Originally posted by Raz
A provocation should lead to criticism, protests, or even boycotts. But the placards that were being waved around in London went too far, and should have been stopped.I think they crossed the line between protests and inciting violence. I'm shocked that the police didn't do anything about it.
If they did it would have been haieled as anti-islamic action!