Anakin Skywalker Vs Mace Windu · Star Wars Versus Forum

Lightsnake Senior Member

Except he was. Get over it.

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by Escape81
First, let me say that it is people like you, Pyro Tyrannus, and Rampant Ox that totally make me hate the almighty Count Dooku. You all completely ruin the character with your "Dooku owns alalll`~:~```" campaigns.
Rofl. . .
ROFL!!!!
ROFL!!!!
Wait, wait, wait . . . so, Anakin grabbing Dooku was cheating, but Mace kicking Palpatine in the face wasn't?
LOLOLOL.
This is what you call "double-standards".
Erm . . . no. By YOUR logic, Mace didn't do it fairly. He didn't outmaneuver Palpatine with his weapon - therefore, Mace didn't really win, and who is superior is really inconclusive, because Mace kicked him.
Yup.

I never said that Mace did beat Palpatine fairly, so ROFL at that 😆

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Except he was. Get over it.

No. He was not. When Dooku cut Anakin's arm off, they were still fencing. Still 'crossing blades'. When Anakin cut Dooku's hands off, they were not fencing. Re-watch the scene and see for yourself.

Lightsnake Senior Member

No, actually they were fighting and Anakin surprised Dooku...sorry, that's 'smart fighting'. If Mace can throw a kick, Anakin can grab

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by Lightsnake
No, actually they were fighting

So first they were duelling, but then they were fighting? Re-watch the scene, and accept that Anakin did not beat Dooku through superior fencing technique.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Anakin surprised Dooku

He did indeed. Doesn't make him a superior swordsman though. (which is the point of a duel)

Originally posted by Lightsnake
sorry, that's 'smart fighting'.

Again, still doesn't make him a better swordsman.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
If Mace can throw a kick, Anakin can grab

I never said that I approved of Mace kicking Palpatine in the face. Infact, I found Mace's intentions disgusting, as I said in a previous post.

Lightsnake Senior Member

Actually, considering Anakin used his style to overwhelm Dooku, it DOES make him superior

overlord OD'd

Originally posted by Lightsnake
ROTS novel explanation: They held back to trick him at the start.
And oh, come on...Dooku having more force mastery than mr "Embraced the Dark Side from birth?"

Yeah, I think it's time to leave Borborad behind in his little world. I hate it when he causes me to spend an hour typing and explaining why he's clinging to desperate thoughts of illusion.
The theory he is trying to convince me of isn't even of much importance to this thread anymore anyway.

But I take comfort of the knowledge that he has spent nights laughing his ass off behind the computer.
😱

Borbarad Advocatus Diaboli

Originally posted by Lightsnake
ROTS novel explanation: They held back to trick him at the start.

a) The movie shows them fighting like they always do.

b) How would they "trick" him by using Ataru and Shi-Cho when they did fight him with Soresu and Djem So before in AotC ? That doesn't make any sense. He already knew what their prefered styles were from their last meeting.

And oh, come on...Dooku having more force mastery than mr "Embraced the Dark Side from birth?"

Dooku was trained from birth on too and I was refering to lightside techniques. Can you tell me how Sidious would have more knowledge about that than the guy who spent 70 years in the Jedi temple ?

And I like to point out that Dooku was one of the 3 (!) individuals in the saga able to deflect force lightning with their bare hands (besides Yoda and Sidious).

Actually, considering Anakin used his style to overwhelm Dooku, it DOES make him superior

No. He didn't, Lightsnake. Anakin's style is using two handed powerful slashs and he did defeat Dooku by grapping Dooku's hand (thereby blocking his movement ability) and then cut his hands off. To do that he obviously had to encoporate an unusual movement in his fighting style which is based on two-handed blade swinging.

The same is seen when Mace kicks away Sidious lightsaber. That's improvisation and not part of the normal "fighting system".

And as I said...when they are all on the same level of swordmastery there is no guarantee that individual A will defeat individual B in any situation. If Dooku can take out Obi-Wan as easily as he did in ROTS I don't see why he shouldn't be able to do the same thing with Anakin.

The point is that all people Gillard rated "level 9 duellists" besides Anakin (Yoda, Sidious, Mace, Dooku) have the advantage over Anakin that they have much more experience in swordfights, are far more "controlled" fighters, and outclass him in terms of force mastery. And only because he took out one of them with a surprise action that doesn't mean he can beat any of them - it doesn't even mean that he can beat Dooku everytime he tries to do it.

Razielim KGB

a) The movie shows them fighting like they always do.

They move quite slow, actually. When Anakin gets pissed he moves alot faster than he did before.

Didn't Anakin use Shii-Cho in AotC?

And I think only Anakin, Sidious and Yoda are 9s, while Dooku, Mace and Obi-Wan were 8s. He also claimed there was an enormous difference between 8 and 9...

Sources: Homing Beacon #126: Dueling Jedi and "The making of RotS"

Lord Saboteur Utinni!

Originally posted by Razielim
They move quite slow, actually. When Anakin gets pissed he moves alot faster than he did before.
Didn't Anakin use Shii-Cho in AotC?
And I think only Anakin, Sidious and Yoda are 9s, while Dooku, Mace and Obi-Wan were 8s. He also claimed there was an enormous difference between 8 and 9...
Sources: Homing Beacon #126: Dueling Jedi and "The making of RotS"

It was Anakin, Mace, Sidious and Yoda that were 9s. And he used Djem So in AotC.

Razielim KGB

Mace was a 9? Makes sense.

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Actually, considering Anakin used his style to overwhelm Dooku, it DOES make him superior

He did not use his style of fencing to overwhelm Dooku, he physically grabbed him That is not outduelling someone, and does not make them superior, it just means they are physically stronger.
Let's put it another way.
Would you expect a guy in his 80s to be able to successfully physically grapple and fight with a guy in his early 20s? Yes or No.

Lightsnake Senior Member

Since when was it said what forms and styles Anakin and Obi-wan were using against Dooku in AOTC? Anakin had become a Djem So master, fine as any Dooku had ever seen, according to Dooku's own POV.

Ok, yeah...Sidious's only been able to learn...everything Dooku did, had his own holocrons...Dooku is only sixteen years older than Sidious and age really doesn't have bearing. Dooku isn't stronger than Sidious, nor is his mastery of the Force great. Dooku knew it himself, the case is closed there.

Once more, this is different than Dooku incorporating LIGHTNING BLASTS in his style how? Djem So is supposed to contain powerful vicious swings so Anakin incorporating that makes him a poor duelist how?

And duels to the death? They don't HAVE fighting systems. yous ee an opportunity, you take it. Fair fights in those cases don't exist. You lose because your opponent did something you didn't expect and put you at a disadvantage? Oh, gee, he MUST be inferior.

And Dooku beat Obi-wan because he was well versed in defeating Soresu and knew Obi-wan's style...Anakin actually BEAT Dooku; And ok, then Sidious can defeat Mace without a 'surprise action.'

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by Razielim
They move quite slow, actually. When Anakin gets pissed he moves alot faster than he did before.

Yes, Anakin did move a lot faster, but, Dooku was still able to block all his blows.

Originally posted by Razielim
Didn't Anakin use Shii-Cho in AotC?

Possibly. It's hard to distinguish from Djem-So unless there is actual blaster deflection involved.

Originally posted by Razielim

And I think only Anakin, Sidious and Yoda are 9s, while Dooku, Mace and Obi-Wan were 8s. He also claimed there was an enormous difference between 8 and 9...

Problem with that is that Anakin was not able to beat Dooku while dueling (although he was better able to fight Dooku than Obi-Wan was), where Dooku was able to beat Anakin while duelling.

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Since when was it said what forms and styles Anakin and Obi-wan were using against Dooku in AOTC? Anakin had become a Djem So master, fine as any Dooku had ever seen, according to Dooku's own POV.
Ok, yeah...Sidious's only been able to learn...everything Dooku did, had his own holocrons...Dooku is only sixteen years older than Sidious and age really doesn't have bearing. Dooku isn't stronger than Sidious, nor is his mastery of the Force great. Dooku knew it himself, the case is closed there.
Once more, this is different than Dooku incorporating LIGHTNING BLASTS in his style how? Djem So is supposed to contain powerful vicious swings so Anakin incorporating that makes him a poor duelist how?
And duels to the death? They don't HAVE fighting systems. yous ee an opportunity, you take it. Fair fights in those cases don't exist. You lose because your opponent did something you didn't expect and put you at a disadvantage? Oh, gee, he MUST be inferior.
And Dooku beat Obi-wan because he was well versed in defeating Soresu and knew Obi-wan's style...Anakin actually BEAT Dooku; And ok, then Sidious can defeat Mace without a 'surprise action.'

Is that actually directed at me?

kamikz A.I.M Mercenary

The thing I wonder is, how much stronger is Anakin than Dooku? Obi and Anakin attacked him at the same time and he held up one hand and parried both their strikes, Anakin holding with two and Obi with one. That's pretty strong as well.... So saying he lost only because he has less physical strenght is weird if I may say so.....

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by kamikz
The thing I wonder is, how much stronger is Anakin than Dooku?

Who knows. How much stronger would you expect a guy in his early 20s to be copared to an old man in his 80s?

Originally posted by kamikz
TObi and Anakin attacked him at the same time and he held up one hand and parried both their strikes, Anakin holding with two and Obi with one. That's pretty strong as well....

It is, but, technique also plays a part there.

Originally posted by kamikz
So saying he lost only because he has less physical strenght is weird if I may say so.....

I can see what you're saying, but, it's a different kind of physical strength to resist being grabbed, to having the physical strength (plus the technique) to counter two blades (by using the momentum of one's own blade to counteract the momentum of the opponent's blades. When Dooku was grabbed, he had neither the momentum, nor posture to generate leverage to break Anakin's grip)

kamikz A.I.M Mercenary

You mean it is a technique to parry hold your sword with one hand and still overpower two persons when one is holding with two hands? Ok....

Dooku also kicked Anakin so hard that he flew far away and got knocked into a wall, it even took a long time for him to get up. Anakin delivered a kick when Dooku was not prepared but Dooku still got balance, and he was even with Anakin in the saber lock as well. Of course Anakin would be stronger than him if you only measure "20 year old vs 80 year old". But when you have the force it is completly different, Dooku could simply power himself with the force....

Honestly, I don't see anyone countering a grab by the arms, Dooku only had about a second to react too. Anakin outwitted him...

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by kamikz
You mean it is a technique to parry hold your sword with one hand and still overpower two persons when one is holding with two hands? Ok....

Sorry, I don't quite understand what you're trying to say, but if I understand you properly, blocking an overhead attack from two attackers with a one-handed grip on a sword involves technique, not just physical strength.

Originally posted by kamikz
Dooku also kicked Anakin so hard that he flew far away and got knocked into a wall, it even took a long time for him to get up. Anakin delivered a kick when Dooku was not prepared but Dooku still got balance, and he was even with Anakin in the saber lock as well.

When you look at the set detail and distances, Anakin really didn't 'fly far' Infact, if you check the scene, Anakin actually staggers back slightly before Dooku even kicks him... I suspect that Dooku used the Force to unbalance Anakin (possibly also lift him slightly) to make his kick more effective, but, in all honesty, Anakin didn't go more than a few feet, it's only the change of camera angles that makes it seem like he 'went flying'. As for the time it took him to get up again, you can actually see Anakin smack his head on the wall, so he was most likely lightly stunned. Dooku was not even with Anakin in his saberlock (which relies on physical strength rather than technique), as it was possible to hear the strain in his voice when he said he could sense Anakin's fear.

Originally posted by kamikz

Honestly, I don't see anyone countering a grab by the arms, Dooku only had about a second to react too. Anakin outwitted him...

Absolutely. That doesn't mean Anakin was a better swordsman though, because he did not beat Dooku while they were duelling. Dooku however, had beaten Anakin while they were duelling.

Captain REX Networking

Blocks of any sort involve technique AND physical strength, I would think. Have you ever tried holding your arm straight while two people are pushing down on it? Incredibly hard if you've got wimpy arms.

I don't see Dooku lifting Anakin up, do you? He kicked him HARD, Anakin flew back and hit his head on the wall.

If Dooku had beaten Anakin, Anakin would be on the ground. 😛 Anakin was losing the first part of the duel, until Dooku took down Kenobi, though, if that's what you mean. 😉